Does anyone have any information about Haplogroup Q (Q1b)?

[Anglojew]

I'm interested in anything people know about this Haplogroup. 5% of Ashkenazi Jews have it and Haplogroup Q is found amongst other people in Europe;

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

Is it of Hunnic, Khazar or some other origin?

[YeshAtid]

Haplogroup Q (M242) evolved in Siberia about 20,000 years ago. SNP M378 is a downstream (evolved later in time) mutation which has been found in about 5% of Ashkenazi (northern European) Jewish men and at low frequency among samples of the Hazara and Sindhi tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan. More recently discovered downstream SNPs appear to have originated in the Mediterranean area.

[alfieb]

I'm interested in anything people know about this Haplogroup. 5% of Ashkenazi Jews have it and Haplogroup Q is found amongst other people in Europe;

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

Is it of Hunnic, Khazar or some other origin?

At least part of it being Gothic would be my guess. Khazars wound up in the Crimea, yes, but after the Goths had been there. Goths would explain Scandinavia and Sicily, while Khazars and Huns would not.

[Anglojew]

Haplogroup Q (M242) evolved in Siberia about 20,000 years ago. SNP M378 is a downstream (evolved later in time) mutation which has been found in about 5% of Ashkenazi (northern European) Jewish men and at low frequency among samples of the Hazara and Sindhi tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan. More recently discovered downstream SNPs appear to have originated in the Mediterranean area.

Interesting. So it could have evolved in the ancient Near East?

Is it linked to the Khazars?

[Anglojew]

At least part of it being Gothic would be my guess. Khazars wound up in the Crimea, yes, but after the Goths had been there. Goths would explain Scandinavia and Sicily, while Khazars and Huns would not.

So my theory could be correct;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?74375-Are-Ashkenazi-Jews-A-Lost-East-Gothic-Tribe ?

[Anglojew]

Was it a Caucasoid Haplogroup (or proto-caucasoid)?

[alfieb]

So my theory could be correct

I think it could be correct in part.


Was it a Caucasoid Haplogroup (or proto-caucasoid)?
The closest relative to Q is R, so I would presume so.

[Annihilus]

Ashkenazi Q1b should be L245, here is something interesting about that:

Although the number of STR markers tested do not allow their inclusion into this research piece, I took the liberty of comparing the sole Assyrian Y-DNA Haplogroup Q-M242 individual from the FTDNA Assyrian Heritage DNA Project to elaborate on their paternal ancestor's ultimate origins.

The Assyrian people are a Neo-Aramaic-speaking ethnic minority native to the land intersecting between Turkey, Iran and Iraq as well as the Mesopotamian basin. Modern Assyrians have (due to their Christian faith and recent historical events) practiced endogamous relationships, making them a genetically distinct group minimally affected by demic movements in the surrounding populations.

The Assyrian Y-DNA Q belongs to the Q1b1a-L245 subclade. As we have observed already, haplogroup Q1b-M378 tends to have a distribution governed more by geography with deeper cluster branches, implying greater diversification time in a given region.

At present, based on the available 10 overlapping STR's, the Assyrian Q1b1a-L245 individual matches Tur_yQP_3 best with a one-step mutation (9/10), placing them deep within Cluster C, the only one without a region-specific distribution. This preliminary evaluation indicates this Assyrian man's paternal ancestor shares Medieval genetic links with Anatolian Turkish, Iranian, Indian and Kazakh men, making a Central Asian Turkish connection likely once more.

http://vaedhya.blogspot.nl/2012/08/west-asian-y-dna-haplogroup-q-turkish.html

[Annihilus]

Btw Q is absolutely mongoloid, that it can be found in causcasoid today doesn't change that fact.

http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt152/smurkst/stuff/indians.jpg

[Anglojew]

Ashkenazi Q1b should be L245, here is something interesting about that:

Although the number of STR markers tested do not allow their inclusion into this research piece, I took the liberty of comparing the sole Assyrian Y-DNA Haplogroup Q-M242 individual from the FTDNA Assyrian Heritage DNA Project to elaborate on their paternal ancestor's ultimate origins.

The Assyrian people are a Neo-Aramaic-speaking ethnic minority native to the land intersecting between Turkey, Iran and Iraq as well as the Mesopotamian basin. Modern Assyrians have (due to their Christian faith and recent historical events) practiced endogamous relationships, making them a genetically distinct group minimally affected by demic movements in the surrounding populations.

The Assyrian Y-DNA Q belongs to the Q1b1a-L245 subclade. As we have observed already, haplogroup Q1b-M378 tends to have a distribution governed more by geography with deeper cluster branches, implying greater diversification time in a given region.

At present, based on the available 10 overlapping STR's, the Assyrian Q1b1a-L245 individual matches Tur_yQP_3 best with a one-step mutation (9/10), placing them deep within Cluster C, the only one without a region-specific distribution. This preliminary evaluation indicates this Assyrian man's paternal ancestor shares Medieval genetic links with Anatolian Turkish, Iranian, Indian and Kazakh men, making a Central Asian Turkish connection likely once more.

http://vaedhya.blogspot.nl/2012/08/west-asian-y-dna-haplogroup-q-turkish.html

So is this an ancient genetic occurrence or medieval?

[Anglojew]

Btw Q is absolutely mongoloid, that it can be found in causcasoid today doesn't change that fact.

http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt152/smurkst/stuff/indians.jpg

I don't see it in the mongoloid areas eg China on that map. There are caucasoid elements in the Americas.

[Anglojew]

I think it could be correct in part.


The closest relative to Q is R, so I would presume so.

That's interesting. So it might explain caucasoid elements in both North Asia and the Americas such as kennewick man?

[Smeagol]

Btw Q is absolutely mongoloid, that it can be found in causcasoid today doesn't change that fact.

http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt152/smurkst/stuff/indians.jpg

No it isn't.

[Smeagol]

That's interesting. So it might explain caucasoid elements in both North Asia and the Americas such as kennewick man?

North Asia was originally entirely Caucasoid.

http://unsafeharbour.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/carleton-coon-map-original.jpg

[Annihilus]

So is this an ancient genetic occurrence or medieval?

I am not that knowledgeable about haplogroup Q but M378 (to which L245 belongs) is often associated with turkic migrations.

[Harkonnen]

I think it could be correct in part.


The closest relative to Q is R, so I would presume so.

Or perhaps haplo R is mongoloid? I find it a bit suspicious that out of the K(MNOPS) R would be the caucasoid outlier given that R like all the rest of them has it's origin in Asia.

[Annihilus]

What would be more accurate to say is that Q is Uralic and a race on it's own with caucasoid or mongoloid admix varying on geography. But if it can only be caucasoid mongoloid or negroid I still thinks it is mainly a mongoloid haplogroup.

[Annihilus]

Or perhaps haplo R is mongoloid? I find it a bit suspicious that out of the K(MNOPS) R would be the caucasoid outlier given that R like all the rest of them has it's origin in Asia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA).PNG/300px-Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA).PNG

[Smeagol]

What would be more accurate to say is that Q is Uralic and a race on it's own with caucasoid or mongoloid admix varying on geography. But if it can only be caucasoid mongoloid or negroid I still thinks it is mainly a mongoloid haplogroup.

Lol, Uralic isn't a race on it it's own, The Komi, and Udmurts are the Uralic people with the most Mongoloid admixture, and even then it's only 20%, and probably recent. Most other Uralics in Europe have less than 10% Mongoloid DNA, so Q should be considered Caucasoid.

[Smeagol]

Or perhaps haplo R is mongoloid? I find it a bit suspicious that out of the K(MNOPS) R would be the caucasoid outlier given that R like all the rest of them has it's origin in Asia.

:picard1:

[Anglojew]

I am not that knowledgeable about haplogroup Q but M378 (to which L245 belongs) is often associated with turkic migrations.

Yes but according to the map the Haplogroup literally is absent the Mongoloid areas of Asia.

I wonder if Turks were a combination of this and more Mongolian genetic input?

[Annihilus]

Lol, Uralic isn't a race on it it's own, The Komi, and Udmurts are the Uralic people with the most Mongoloid admixture, and even then it's only 20%, and probably recent. Most other Uralics in Europe have less than 10% Mongoloid DNA, so Q should be considered Caucasoid.

Seriously? Kets are almost 100% Q, do they look causcasoid to you in any way?

http://i44.tinypic.com/11c6vfd.png

[Annihilus]

Yes but according to the map the Haplogroup literally is absent the Mongoloid areas of Asia.

I wonder if Turks were a combination of this and more Mongolian genetic input?

I have always said that that first Turks were uralic with caucasian and mongoloid admix.

[Smeagol]

Seriously? Kets are almost 100% Q, do they look causcasoid to you in any way?

http://i44.tinypic.com/11c6vfd.png

Kets aren't Uralic. It doesn't matter if they have haplogroup Q, it didn't originate with Mongoloids.
Siberians do have Caucasoid DNA by the way.

[Smeagol]

I have always said that that first Turks were uralic with caucasian and mongoloid admix.

They were mixed with Caucasian, and Mongoloid, but they weren't Uralic.

[Mazik]

Hg Q probably reached Scandinavia through prehistoric mixing (during the paleolithic). We're talking about very old geneflow that could be seen in the 'globe4' calculator where Scandos in general scored like 8-10% amerindian.

Has been many theories like it would have reached Scandinavia through hunnic warriors and such :picard2:

[Annihilus]

Kets aren't Uralic. It doesn't matter if they have haplogroup Q, it didn't originate with Mongoloids.
Siberians do have Caucasoid DNA by the way.

They are considered Siberian people

http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/maps/bigmap5.gif

[Anglojew]

Apparently Q is an offshoot of P

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P-M45

So it's a Caucasoid Haplogroup ( or proto-Caucasoid I guess?).

[1stLightHorse]

Can anyone provide input about Yemenite jews then?? I don't remember where i read this but i am sure i've read before that a small % of yemenite jews carry hg Q?

Found it,
Q-M323 (M323) — It has been detected in Yemenite Jews.[40]

From this study: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/humu.20077/abstract;jsessionid=DFEBAC455940DC9838FC7BF50312A1 12.d01t04

[Annihilus]

Apparently Q is an offshoot of P

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P-M45

So is a Caucasoid Haplogroup ( or proto-Caucasoid I guess?).

I believe mongoloids and caucasoid diverge around that time.

[Smeagol]

They are considered Siberian people

http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/maps/bigmap5.gif

Kets are, I know.

[Smeagol]

Hg Q probably reached Scandinavia through prehistoric mixing (during the paleolithic). We're talking about very old geneflow that could be seen in the 'globe4' calculator where Scandos in general scored like 8-10% amerindian.

Yeah, of course it's not really Amerindian though, it's proto-Caucasoid, from before Caucasoids, and Mongoloids diverged.

[Anglojew]

So what about Jews with this Haplogroup? They're distantly related to some Scandinavians?

[Anglojew]

So a person with Q YDNA and U MtDNA is pretty Northern?

Both Q1b and U5b2 are actually quite Uralic? Is that correct?

[Smeagol]

So what about Jews with this Haplogroup? They're distantly related to some Scandinavians?

Probably.

[Smeagol]

So a person with Q YDNA and U MtDNA is pretty Northern?

Yes.


Both Q1b and U5b2 are actually quite Uralic? Is that correct?

I think so.

[Anglojew]

Probably.

Interesting.

[Harkonnen]

What do you mean Uralic. Apart from Selkups, Q is a pretty damn rare haplo on Uralic speakers. Hotspots for this haplo are Americas, Eastern Siberia, Northwest Siberia and Altay, not Urals region at all.

[Anglojew]

What do you mean Uralic. Apart from Selkups, Q is a pretty damn rare haplo on Uralic speakers. Hotspots for this haplo are Americas, Eastern Siberia and Altay, not Urals region at all.

A previous poster described it as Uralic on this thread.

I was also asking about U5b2 which is apparently common in Finns?

I guess what I'm saying is the two Haplogroups are pretty Northern.

[Smeagol]

What do you mean Uralic. Apart from Selkups, Q is a pretty damn rare haplo on Uralic speakers. Hotspots for this haplo are Americas, Eastern Siberia and Altay, not Urals region at all.

Maybe not Uralic. It's from before Caucasoids, and Mongoloids diverged.

[Anglojew]

Maybe not Uralic. It's from before Caucasoids, and Mongoloids diverged.

What did they look like?

[Harkonnen]

They looked like Maury Po(po)vich

[Smeagol]

What did they look like?

I guess the closest thing would be Coon's Ladogan type.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe022.jpg

This is a Siberian woman who lacks evolved Mongoloid admixture. She has some incipent Mongoloid traits though.

[Anglojew]

I guess the closest thing would be Coon's Ladogan type.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe022.jpg

This is a Siberian woman who lacks evolved Mongoloid admixture. She has some incipent Mongoloid traits though.

Looks rather Finnic to me.

[Smeagol]

Looks rather Finnic to me.

Yeah There are some Finnics who look like her.

[Anglojew]

Looks like its associated with Ugrics

[Not a Cop]

May it be related to some Cordede Ware tribe? I mean it fits pretty much- appeared in Ukraine steppes through central europe and germany to Scandinavia

[Anglojew]

Did this Haplogroup enter Ashkenazi Jewish populations in ancient times (eg there are Sephardi and Yemeni Jews a Q Haplogroup) or did it Ashkenazi populations later (with the Khazars for instance) or both?

[Anglojew]

I've been reading about it and Q is the youngest Haplotype being a mutation of Haplotype P which is the parent of both Q and R (the main European Haplogroup). It's not Mongoloid then.

[Annihilus]

Did this Haplogroup enter Ashkenazi Jewish populations in ancient times (eg there are Sephardi and Yemeni Jews a Q Haplogroup) or did it Ashkenazi populations later (with the Khazars for instance) or both?

My thought on this is that Q and N can point to a Khazar link, I would like to point more to a R-link but since being linked to turkics creates controversy I am just going to leave it at that.

[Graham]

Evon & Palla are into that Haplogroup subject. Both aren't posting so much this summer. :P

[1stLightHorse]

May it be related to some Cordede Ware tribe? I mean it fits pretty much- appeared in Ukraine steppes through central europe and germany to Scandinavia

Aren't Cordeds associated with R1a1? I'm not sure, i'm genuinely asking.

[Anglojew]

Some of the Native Americans of this Haplotype are quite pretty (I know it's a YDNA Haplotype);

http://conservapedia.com/images/6/6f/Guarani.jpeg

[Damião de Góis]

Some of the Native Americans of this Haplotype are quite pretty (I know it's a YDNA Haplotype);

http://conservapedia.com/images/6/6f/Guarani.jpeg

She's most likely A, B or C.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Map_of_gene_flow_in_and_out_of_Beringia.jpg/480px-Map_of_gene_flow_in_and_out_of_Beringia.jpg

[Anglojew]

According to this map Q1b is might be Persian


http://64.40.115.138/file/lu/6/52235/NTIyMzV9K3szNTc2NzM=.jpg?download=1

[Anglojew]

She's most likely A, B or C.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Map_of_gene_flow_in_and_out_of_Beringia.jpg/480px-Map_of_gene_flow_in_and_out_of_Beringia.jpg

Thanks, she's seems to have green eyes

[Annihilus]

According to this map Q1b is might be Persian


http://64.40.115.138/file/lu/6/52235/NTIyMzV9K3szNTc2NzM=.jpg?download=1

One should really be careful making general assumptions about haplogroups, I would like to make an analogy to quantum mechanics, you may know who they were but don't know where they were going to or you may know where they were going but you don't know who they were.

[1stLightHorse]

Very interesting pieces on Jewish Q1b:
http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/jewish-genes-what-haplogroup-could-they.html

Quite alot of ashkenazim on FTdna belong to Q1b:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_Q/default.aspx?section=yresults

Great information on here about Q1b, it's found in Mesopotamians too which is where the Israelite nation's founders hailed from:
http://vaedhya.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/west-asian-y-dna-haplogroup-q-turkish.html

I'm wondering if Q1b may have been present in the Abrahamic migration to Canaan.

[Smeagol]

Some of the Native Americans of this Haplotype are quite pretty (I know it's a YDNA Haplotype);

http://conservapedia.com/images/6/6f/Guarani.jpeg

She obviously has Caucasoid admxiture.

[Annihilus]

She obviously has Caucasoid admxiture.

Why do you say that, I am not very knowledgeable about taxonomy but I assume you mention her nose. Can that not be a trait before mongoloids and caucasoid diverged? Can she not be a race on her own?

[Smeagol]

Why do you say that, I am not very knowledgeable about taxonomy but I assume you mention her nose. Can that not be a trait before mongoloids and caucasoid diverged? Can she not be a race on her own?

They looked mainly like Upper Palaeolithic Caucasoids, before they diverged. It's not just her nose, it's her eyes, which a pure Mongoloid can't have.

[Annihilus]

They looked mainly like Upper Palaeolithic Caucasoids, before they diverged. It's not just her nose, it's her eyes, which a pure Mongoloid can't have.

Her eye color? because her eye shape is mongoloid. That is what I am trying to say she can have both because she is her own distinct race and doesn't have to be classified by other races that diverged later on.

[Smeagol]

Her eye color? because her eye shape is mongoloid.

Yes, and green/light brown. She's obviously mixed race.


That is what I am trying to say she can have both because she is her own distinct race and doesn't have to be classified by other races that diverged later on.

No, she's just a hybrid of ancient Upper Palaeolithic Caucasoid, and evolved Mongoloid.

[Annihilus]

[QUOTE=Horatio;1790685]Yes, and green/light brown. She's obviously mixed race.



How can you say this with this certainty? If would to ask you how a proto caucasoid mongoloid would look like, would you agree it could look like her?

[Smeagol]

[QUOTE=Horatio;1790685]Yes, and green/light brown. She's obviously mixed race.



How can you say this with this certainty? If would to ask you how a proto caucasoid mongoloid would look like, would you agree it could look like her?

It wouldn't look like her at all. She obviously has evolved Mongoloid admixture. Mongoloids came from proto-Caucasoids.

[Annihilus]

It wouldn't look like her at all. She obviously has evolved Mongoloid admixture. Mongoloids came from proto-Caucasoids.

Mongoloids came from proto-Caucasoids=Caucasoids came from proto-mongoloids

[Smeagol]

[QUOTE=Horatio;1790690]

Mongoloids came from proto-Caucasoids=Caucasoids came from proto-mongoloids

:picard1:

[Annihilus]

[QUOTE=annihilus;1790693]

:picard1:

explain :picard1: because I really don't understand you, if we have two groups mongoloid and causcasoid and they come from the same group either statement is true.

[Smeagol]

[QUOTE=Horatio;1790694]

explain :picard1: because I really don't understand you, if we have two groups mongoloid and causcasoid and they come from the same group either statement is true.

Mongoloids evolved from Upper Paleolithic Caucasoids, not the other way around. Anyway, the point is that Amerindian girl is mixed race.

[Anglojew]

My thought on this is that Q and N can point to a Khazar link, I would like to point more to a R-link but since being linked to turkics creates controversy I am just going to leave it at that.

I don't mind. I think it's interesting. There's very confusing and differing opinions though. I've seen it linked to Khazars Kings, Pakistanis, Radhanites, etc

[Anglojew]

She obviously has Caucasoid admxiture.

I doubt it. She just has some proto-Caucasoid features.

I've never seen a pretty full-blood Native American before (just my opinion, and I'm no expert) but she's definitely beautiful in an exotic way.

[ButlerKing]

This is so ridicolousm you can't get more lunatic and stupid than this.

NEXT you're going to claim that the Q in Native Americans are caucasoid descent, B.S

http://www.transpacificproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.png

[ButlerKing]

Chelkans in SIBERIA are turkic ethnic group and they have 60% of haplogroup Q :D

http://www.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p13940.jpg

Tubalar in Siberia are turkic ethnic group in Northern altay they have 37% of haplogroup Q :D

http://www.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p16024.jpg


Todjins another Siberian Turkic ethnic group with 38.5% haplogroup Q :D



And Tuvans another Siberian Turkic group with 38% haplogroup Q :D

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tUrHLwNRX48/0.jpg

[Anglojew]

Chelkans in SIBERIA are turkic ethnic group and they have 60% of haplogroup Q :D

http://www.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p13940.jpg

Tubalar in Siberia are turkic ethnic group in Northern altay they have 37% of haplogroup Q :D

http://www.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p16024.jpg


Todjins another Siberian Turkic ethnic group with 38.5% haplogroup Q :D



And Tuvans another Siberian Turkic group with 38% haplogroup Q :D

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tUrHLwNRX48/0.jpg

Yes but those features probably evolved after 20,000 years ago. Don't forget that Q and R (Common European Haplogroup) derive from the same one (P)

http://64.40.115.138/file/lu/6/52235/NTIyMzV9K3szNDAwNTQ=.jpg?download=1

[ButlerKing]

Lol, Uralic isn't a race on it it's own, The Komi, and Udmurts are the Uralic people with the most Mongoloid admixture, and even then it's only 20%, and probably recent. Most other Uralics in Europe have less than 10% Mongoloid DNA, so Q should be considered Caucasoid.

Nonsense, first find me one caucasoid group that even has more than 17% Q.
It's ridiculous for it to be considered caucasoid.

[ButlerKing]

Yes but those features probably evolved after 20,000 years ago. Don't forget that Q and R (Common European Haplogroup) derive from the same one (P)

http://64.40.115.138/file/lu/6/52235/NTIyMzV9K3szNDAwNTQ=.jpg?download=1

And don't forget O and N are come from NO. So I guess we can start claiming N is Mongoloid.


What's your point man? mtDNA M and N are descendant of L but M and N aren't african negroids.

[Anglojew]

Yes but those features probably evolved after 20,000 years ago. Don't forget that Q and R (Common European Haplogroup) derive from the same one (P)

http://64.40.115.138/file/lu/6/52235/NTIyMzV9K3szNDAwNTQ=.jpg?download=1

That since the O Haplogroup is associated with Mongoloids Q represents the proto-Caucasian found in Native Americans.

[ButlerKing]

That since the O Haplogroup is associated with Mongoloids Q represents the proto-Caucasian found in Native Americans.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN PROTO-CAUCASOID? according to what data that claims Q is proto-caucasoid?
You can't even find a caucasoid group that has more than 15% Q.



This logic implies Proto-Caucasian DNA in Native Americans is 80-99% Native American tribes? In Siberian Mongoloid tribes is 37 - 60% in Central Asians a mixture of Turkic/Mongoloid 6 - 20%. Europeans is less than 4%. How is this proto-Caucasoid?

[Anglojew]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN PROTO-CAUCASOID? according to what data that claims Q is proto-caucasoid?
You can't even find a caucasoid group that has more than 15% Q.



This logic implies Proto-Caucasian DNA in Native Americans is 80-99% Native American tribes? In Siberian Mongoloid tribes is 37 - 60% in Central Asians a mixture of Turkic/Mongoloid 6 - 20%. Europeans is less than 4%. How is this proto-Caucasoid?

There's no evidence that the original mutation of Haplogroup Q occured prior to the evolution of Mongoloids though. Most Mongoloids are Haplotype O.

[ButlerKing]

There's no evidence that the original mutation of Haplogroup Q occured prior to the evolution of Mongoloids though. Most Mongoloids are Haplotype O.

You must be kidding me? Mongoloid haplogroup doesn't have only O. Q is a siberian and Native American haplogroup in the same D1a and D3a is common in Tibetan and C3 is common in Mongolian, Tungustic tribes.

Do you think haplogroup J2, J1, I are non-European just because most Europeans are R1b and
R1a?

The biggest evidence is that it occurs in extremely low frequencies in Europeans while extremely high in Mongoloid groups.

[Annihilus]

What I think is if races are a fact, you cannot confine it to 3 so 4 is a equal probability.

Q+N could be their own race.

[ButlerKing]

What I think is if races are a fact, you cannot confine it to 3 so 4 is a equal probability.

Q+N could be their own race.

N is Uralic could be Mongoloid or Caucasoid, I'm not sure myself and we can debate on that.

But Q is undoubtly Mongoloid since is found in 90% of Native Americans and 30-60% of Siberian Mongoloid tribes. How the heck someone thinks Q is proto-Caucasoid while having such extremely low frequencies is beyond me.

[Guapo]

North American indians carry Q but traces are found on Crete as well, some believe ancient Cretans sailed to the Americas and brought back women to Europe.

[Annihilus]

N is Uralic could be Mongoloid or Caucasoid, I'm not sure myself and we can debate on that.

But Q is undoubtly Mongoloid since is found in 90% of Native Americans and 30-60% of Siberian Mongoloid tribes. How the heck someone thinks Q is proto-Caucasoid while having such extremely low frequencies is beyond me.

Well one could look at direction

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA).PNG/300px-Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA).PNG

[Anglojew]

N is Uralic could be Mongoloid or Caucasoid, I'm not sure myself and we can debate on that.

But Q is undoubtly Mongoloid since is found in 90% of Native Americans and 30-60% of Siberian Mongoloid tribes. How the heck someone thinks Q is proto-Caucasoid while having such extremely low frequencies is beyond me.

"Y-DNA Haplogroup Q is defined by the M242 marker and is upstream to Haplogroup P-M45, making it the sister Haplogroup of R-M207, which populates much of West Eurasia. "

http://vaedhya.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/west-asian-y-dna-haplogroup-q-turkish.html

Once again, just because the descendents of the original Q haplogroup person became Mongoloids doesn't mean he was Mongoloid as is evident from the fact he in turn came from a Caucasian or proto-Caucasian haplogroup.

[ButlerKing]

"Y-DNA Haplogroup Q is defined by the M242 marker and is upstream to Haplogroup P-M45, making it the sister Haplogroup of R-M207, which populates much of West Eurasia. "

http://vaedhya.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/west-asian-y-dna-haplogroup-q-turkish.html

Once again, just because the descendents of the original Q haplogroup person became Mongoloids doesn't mean he was Mongoloid as is evident from the fact he in turn came from a Caucasian or proto-Caucasian haplogroup.

Your source comes from a editted blogger and it doesn't even claim it was proto-caucasian.
So than judging by your logic haplogroup N is Mongoloid since is closest relative is O and is descendant of NO.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG/300px-Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG


And what the heck did the proto-Caucasian who carried haplogroup Q looked like ?
did he looked something like this who was the first proto-caucasian of Europe?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDXBv_k6gNY

[Gauthier]

Q holder right here. Any others in the forum with this haplo?

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3599/b0z5.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/b0z5.jpg/)


Haplogroup Q arose about 18,000 years ago in north-central Asia, at the peak of the Ice Age. The first men who carried it pursued mammoths and other gigantic game over frigid steppe and tundra in climate conditions that are found today only in the far polar latitudes.

Today haplogroup Q remains relatively common in Siberia and north-central Asia. It is most common in the Kets and Selkups of Northeast Siberia, where it reaches levels of 93% and 66%, respectively.

Oddly, a few concentrations of Q can also be found in southwestern Asia, far from the haplogroup's homeland. About 2% of men from India bear haplogroup Q, and the haplogroup has also been found occasionally in the Arabian Peninsula.

Men bearing haplogroup Q1a3a were almost certainly among those earliest South Americans. It is the only haplogroup present among South American Indians today.

The Y chromosomes of North American Indian men are far less uniform. Yet even here Q1a3a still dominates, reaching up to 40% in tribes like the Cherokee.

[Annihilus]

Your source comes from a editted blogger and it doesn't even claim it was proto-caucasian.
So than judging by your logic haplogroup N is Mongoloid since is closest relative is O and is descendant of NO.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG/300px-Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG




And what the heck did the proto-Caucasian who carried haplogroup Q looked like ?
did he looked something like this who was the first proto-caucasian of Europe?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDXBv_k6gNY

What do you have against saying Q+N (obviously not confined to that) being an own race (uralic)?

[Annihilus]

nvm

[Smeagol]

What I think is if races are a fact, you cannot confine it to 3 so 4 is a equal probability.

Q+N could be their own race.

Haplogroup doesn't determine race.

[Anglojew]

Your source comes from a editted blogger and it doesn't even claim it was proto-caucasian.
So than judging by your logic haplogroup N is Mongoloid since is closest relative is O and is descendant of NO.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG/300px-Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG


And what the heck did the proto-Caucasian who carried haplogroup Q looked like ?
did he looked something like this who was the first proto-caucasian of Europe?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDXBv_k6gNY

I guess, who knows.

We can see that Q split and went a seperate way from the main R European Haplogroups and presumantly evolved later into Mongaloids due to climate ]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg

The Native Americans with Q actually look a little like the person in that video (but all of these features evolved for climate and may have arisen later);

http://www.theprisma.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/guaran%C3%AD-7.jpg

http://www.theprisma.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Guarani.jpg

http://assets.survivalinternational.org/pictures/1524/braz-gua-fw-2008-11-2_screen.jpg

They seem to lack a epicanthic fold eg typically Mongaloid feature.

[Smeagol]

Butlerking, It doesn't matter if haplogroup Q is mostly found in Mongoloids, because it was before Caucasoids, and Mongoloids diverged, and by the way, many Siberians have Caucasoid admixture.

[Annihilus]

Haplogroup doesn't determine race.

Yes I know, I have said this myself, but we are generalizing here and I am playing.

[Anglojew]

Q holder right here. Any others in the forum with this haplo?

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3599/b0z5.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/b0z5.jpg/)

I'm Q1b apparantly.

[Anglojew]

Butlerking, It doesn't matter if haplogroup Q is mostly found in Mongoloids, because it was before Caucasoids, and Mongoloids diverged, and by the way, many Siberians have Caucasoid admixture.

He doesn't seem to comprehend that. Strange thing is I bet he'd get it about his own Haplogroups divergence from O etc

[ButlerKing]

I guess, who knows.

We can see that Q split and went a seperate way from the main R European Haplogroups and presumantly evolved later into Mongaloids due to climate ]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg

The Native Americans with Q actually look a little like the person in that video (but all of these features evolved for climate and may have arisen later);

http://www.theprisma.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/guaran%C3%AD-7.jpg

http://www.theprisma.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Guarani.jpg

http://assets.survivalinternational.org/pictures/1524/braz-gua-fw-2008-11-2_screen.jpg

They seem to lack a epicanthic fold eg typically Mongaloid feature.


I hope you're not trying to claim these people as Proto-Caucasoid when they are proto-Mongoloids

Because that be like claiming the Taiwanese aborigines with haplogroup O1 as proto-caucasoid which is B.S

http://i50.tinypic.com/2nk75f.jpg
http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/independent/warriorsoftherainbowseediqbale/images/thumbnail_6445.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/iqybyu.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/50ijax.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/2nunoo.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/1f6xp1.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/20539u9.jpg

[Anglojew]

I hope you're not trying to claim these people as Proto-Caucasoid when they are proto-Mongoloids

Because that be like claiming the Taiwanese aborigines with haplogroup O1 as proto-caucasoid which is B.S

http://i50.tinypic.com/2nk75f.jpg
http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/independent/warriorsoftherainbowseediqbale/images/thumbnail_6445.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/iqybyu.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/50ijax.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/2nunoo.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/1f6xp1.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/20539u9.jpg

Please find me evidence that the original holder of Q was Mongoloid. That's all I'm asking.

[Annihilus]

I'm Q1b apparantly.

Seriously I knew this, Anglojew, be proud, be very very proud of your paternal line, for one it proves you are a real Jew, one way or the other:D

[ButlerKing]

I'm Q1b apparantly.


LOL even Azakhanezi jews have Mongoloid admixture


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMK-SiAORmI/AAAAAAAACwY/zXM2RjR8z1U/s1600/ASHKENAZI_10.png

0.3% to 3.9% East Asian

There is no Mongoloid mtDNA in Jews, and no C3, N but there is haplogroup Q at 5%. Wanna try to guess where the East Asian admixture came from?

[ButlerKing]

Please find me evidence that the original holder of Q was Mongoloid. That's all I'm asking.

The evidence

but to say Q is proto-caucasoid when it hardly even reaches more than 1% in most of Europea is dumb as heck. I know one thing that you you have Mongoloid paternal where else did you Jews get your 0.3 to 3.9% East Asian admixture if it was not haplogroup Q. That is you only sign of Mongoloid DNA.

[Smeagol]

LOL even Azakhanezi jews have Mongoloid admixture


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMK-SiAORmI/AAAAAAAACwY/zXM2RjR8z1U/s1600/ASHKENAZI_10.png

0.3% to 3.9% East Asian

There is no Mongoloid mtDNA in Jews, and no C3, N but there is haplogroup Q at 5%. Wanna try to guess where the East Asian admixture came from?

The Ashkenazi Jews have about the same amount of Mongoloid admixture as Norwegians, and Swedes. Perhaps they absorbed some Siberian blood.

[Annihilus]

LOL even Azakhanezi jews have Mongoloid admixture


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMK-SiAORmI/AAAAAAAACwY/zXM2RjR8z1U/s1600/ASHKENAZI_10.png

0.3% to 3.9% East Asian


There is no Mongoloid mtDNA in Jews, and no C3, N but there is haplogroup Q at 5%. Wanna try to guess where the East Asian admixture came from?

bla bla bla bla blaaaaaa bla bla

all that matters is that anglojew is my Khazar brother:)

[ButlerKing]

The Ashkenazi Jews have about the same amount of Mongoloid admixture as Norwegians, and Swedes. Perhaps they absorbed some Siberian blood.


The only sign of Mongoloid admixture in Jews are Q. There is no other haplogroup to explain in Q in Jews is at least partially Mongoloid if it came from Turkic. Finns have 6.25% although some individual cherry picked Finns would have 12.5% but this is this due to the fact Uralic people were mixture of Mongoloid/Caucasoid.

Haplogroup Q is in some 80-100% of Native American tribes where it shows 0% European admixture and that is freaking impossible if it was truely proto-caucasoid.

[Smeagol]

The only sign of Mongoloid admixture in Jews are Q. There is no other haplogroup to explain in Q in Jews is at least partially Mongoloid if it came from Turkic.

They probably got their Mongoloid admixture from mixed Mongoloid/Caucasoid populations.


Finns have 6.25% although some individual cherry picked Finns would have 12.5%

Also, Norwegians have 1%, and Swedes have 0.6%.


but this is this due to the fact Uralic people were mixture of Mongoloid/Caucasoid.

They were mostly Caucasoid with some Mongoloid admixture.


Haplogroup Q is in some 80-100% of Native American tribes where it shows 0% European admixture and that is freaking impossible if it was truely proto-caucasoid.

You may be right, but can you prove these Native American tribes are all 100% Mongoloid?

[ButlerKing]

They probably got their Mongoloid admixture from mixed Mongoloid/Caucasoid populations.



Also, Norwegians have 1%, and Swedes have 0.6%.



They were mostly Caucasoid with some Mongoloid admixture.



You may be right, but can you prove these Native American tribes are all 100% Mongoloid?


Which is obviously Turkic. The ancient Khazars were described with two types, one that is described with light skin, light hair and light and other with small eyes and black hair, and dark skin

Haplogroup Q-M25 reaches 42.6% among the Turkmen in Iran and they are supposedly mixture of Mongoloid and Caucasoid. Haplogroup Q reaches at maximum 60% in many South Siberian especially at North Siberian tribes where it peaks at 80%.

Turkmen of Afghan has 42.6% Q but these groups are mixed as you can see. Turkmen in one city has 25% Q and the people there look more mongoloid

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1436/1305972490_31c7abf361.jpg
http://footbik.narod.ru/IGROKY/A/IZO/AZIZI_KHODADAD_jpg.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/4t3pr8.jpg



Norwegian DNA aren't even similar to Uralic their more similar to nations which has haplogroup I, their mtDNA is indistinguishable from European nationas with haplogroup I which suggest they partly mixture of modern Finns and European groups that has haplogroup I.


The Ache and Surui they have 80-100% Q but lack any european dna.

http://signaturebooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/dna2.jpg

[Anglojew]

LOL even Azakhanezi jews have Mongoloid admixture


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMK-SiAORmI/AAAAAAAACwY/zXM2RjR8z1U/s1600/ASHKENAZI_10.png

0.3% to 3.9% East Asian

There is no Mongoloid mtDNA in Jews, and no C3, N but there is haplogroup Q at 5%. Wanna try to guess where the East Asian admixture came from?

Khazars is one theory.

It would be funny if I was a Khazar.

[Smeagol]

Which is obviously Turkic. The ancient Khazars were described with two types, one that is described with light skin, light hair and light and other with small eyes and black hair, and dark skin

True.


Haplogroup Q-M25 reaches 42.6% among the Turkmen in Iran and they are supposedly mixture of Mongoloid and Caucasoid. Haplogroup Q reaches at maximum 60% in many South Siberian especially at North Siberian tribes where it peaks at 80%.

Siberians often have Caucasoid admixture.


Norwegian DNA aren't even similar to Uralic their more similar to nations which has haplogroup I, their mtDNA is indistinguishable from European nationas with haplogroup I which suggest they partly mixture of modern Finns and European groups that has haplogroup I.

I know Norwegian DNA isn't similar to Uralic, it's mainly European, with just 1% Mongoloid admixture.



The Ache and Surui they have 80-100% Q

http://signaturebooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/dna2.jpg

Okay, maybe it was proto-Mongoloid.

[Annihilus]

Khazars is one theory.

It would be funny if I was a Khazar.

You have now the right to choose if you want to identify as one, I hope in time you'll learn to appreciate that privilege.

[ButlerKing]

True.



Siberians often have Caucasoid admixture.



I know Norwegian DNA isn't similar to Uralic, it's mainly European, with just 1% Mongoloid admixture.




Okay, maybe it was proto-Mongoloid.

Yes Siberians are mixed however in Siberians where haplogroup Q is high the maternal is mainly Caucasians and yet the people still look more mongoloid which is rather strange yet again if Q was Caucasoid.

Mixed groups


Selkup 66% haplogroup Q however it mus be mentioned they have 60% European maternal DNA and 25% R1a and R1b.

[img]http://www.gazprom.com/f/posts/95/299107/yrm-energy-of-nature-43.jpg


Kets 87% haplogroup Q however it must be mentioned they have 65% European maternal DNA

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Ket_shaman_1914.png/300px-Ket_shaman_1914.png

If Q was truely proto-caucasoid shouldn't their DNA be closer to European but instead it shows they ranged from 65 to 80% Mongoloid.

[Gauthier]

I'm Q1b apparantly.

Welcome to the Q family. Now we have more in common. :D

[Smeagol]

You have now the right to choose if you want to identify as one, I hope in time you'll learn to appreciate that privilege.

Even if Jews do have some minor Khazar admixture, it's nowhere near the largest component of their ancestry, as you said in another thread.

[Anglojew]

Maybe Khazars should reclaim their rightful place as the Turkic ruling class and convert Turkey and Central Asia to Judaism?

[Anglojew]

I've been researching all weekend and read lots of studies. I've come to a conclusion that I feel is backed up by evidence.

Q1b is NOT Khazar despite what some people say, even some Jews with it have tried to prove it goes back to the Khazarian royals for no-doubt romantic reasons. It is not found in any of the Jewish turkic or tartar populations in Crimea etc for instance Karaites and Krymchaks who most people acknowledge as direct descendents of at least some of the Khazars. That is not to say that Ashkenazi Jews have no Khazar ancestry. About 10% have R1a1a which some speculate is Khazarian.

So where does Q1b come from? After reading many studies I've found it's present in both Iraqi Jews and Assyrians (not in many Kurds or Armenians though interestingly although I think some Kurds have it or other Q1a variations but have to further research). As both groups practiced endogamy this means modern admixture is unlikely. It seems that a geneticist has deduced that a foreign element (from the Persian empire) entered Assyria about 2,800 years ago. This means that either European Jews obtained this DNA from the Babylonian exile about 597BC or directly from a more modern Iraqi (Jew presumably) migrant to Europe (a Radhanite perhaps?).

I think this makes sense but if anyone has anything they want to add let me know.

[Annihilus]

Here is a recent paper on the subject http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/12/14/gbe.evs119.full.pdf

[Anglojew]

Here is a recent paper on the subject http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/12/14/gbe.evs119.full.pdf

Even I can tell that study is faulty. It doesn't take into account modern admixture in Near Easterners. It says Druze are Turkic etc It's not very good.

[Annihilus]

Even I can tell that study is faulty. It doesn't take into account modern admixture in Near Easterners. It says Druze are Turkic etc It's not very good.

I didn't quite get the Druze are 83% turkic bit, maybe it was meant as Turkish?

[Anglojew]

I didn't quite get the Druze are 83% turkic bit, maybe it was meant as Turkish?

They're not Turkish. The whole thing is not accurate. It's based on a false assumption that if Jews plot near the Caucasus they're somehome Khazars. There are many reasons Jews should plot near the Caucasus. Why would Khazars plot there anyway? The whole thing is political.

[Annihilus]

They're not Turkish. The whole thing is not accurate. It's based on a false assumption that if Jews plot near the Caucasus they're somehome Khazars. There are many reasons Jews should plot near the Caucasus. Why would Khazars plot there anyway? The whole thing is political.

I don't know, better ask the author of the paper, a Jew. Btw Druze have something like 35% haplogroup L so they are certainly not native to Israel.

[Anglojew]

I don't know, better ask the author of the paper, a Jew. Btw Druze have something like 35% haplogroup L so they are certainly not native to Israel.

Everyone's got foreign imput. It could be ancient.

[Smeagol]

I don't know, better ask the author of the paper, a Jew. Btw Druze have something like 35% haplogroup L so they are certainly not native to Israel.

Of course Druze are native to Israel...

[Gauthier]

Anglojew, I have 10 relatives with your same haplogroup, most of them with Jewish ancestry.


http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1893/unbo.jpg (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/unbo.jpg/)

[Damião de Góis]

She obviously has Caucasoid admxiture.

Yanomamis (which is what she is apparently) only saw outsiders for the first time in the 1970s, so it's unlikely that she is mixed:

http://conservapedia.com/images/6/6f/Guarani.jpeg

[Philo]

Very interesting haplgroup you have. Like my own(J2 is found all the way from Pakistan to Italy). But yours is more interesting of course.

Seriously I knew this, Anglojew, be proud, be very very proud of your paternal line, for one it proves you are a real Jew, one way or the other:D
Can you please evaluate me ?:p;)

[Anglojew]

Very interesting haplgroup you have. Like my own(J2 is found all the way from Pakistan to Italy). But yours is more interesting of course.

Can you please evaluate me ?:p;)

Yes, I was quite surprised by this. Very interesting though. It shows how much ancient man travelled.

[Anglojew]

Yanomamis (which is what she is apparently) only saw outsiders for the first time in the 1970s, so it's unlikely that she is mixed:

http://conservapedia.com/images/6/6f/Guarani.jpeg

Interesting thanks.

[Anglojew]

Anglojew, I have 10 relatives with your same haplogroup, most of them with Jewish ancestry.


http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1893/unbo.jpg (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/unbo.jpg/)

Most Sephardi Qs are Q1a apparently but there are a few Q1bs too.

[Kazimiera]

I have a Q1b match on 23andme. :)

[Anglojew]

I have a Q1b match on 23andme. :)

Very cool.

[Kazimiera]

Very cool.

It is an East Asian match haplogroup.

Paternal: Q1b
Maternal: Y2

I have quite a number of mtdna groups A, C, G and Y.

Yes, the mongol is strong in this one. :)

[Skywalker]

Anglojew thank you for the thread. My direct paternal line is Q probable Q1b. As I am female my brother took the test. What DNA company did you test with? We tested at Family Tree DNA when the 12 marker was on sale for only $39. I am waiting for the winter holiday sale to upgrade to the 67 marker. The project administrator of one of the groups that I joined my brother to was nice enough to send me a way to receive a coupon for $10 off any test. It will not be good to use with any promotions, so I plan to use it in the next few weeks to order the SNP test for SNP 245. This is the "Jewish Snp". There are a lot of guys though that have not tested for it, even ones that appear to be Jewish. So it would be great to know if some who have Jewish heritage and are Q if they could be negative for this marker.

Another marker that I have been told is part of the Jewish cluster for Q1b lies in the 67 marker test. It occurs on marker 395S1 I have been told. As for my own direct paternal line here is what I know. No traditions of being Jewish. My Father and grandfather said we are Lithuanian and Polish, but the last name is really Lithuanian. (The spellings on the end of the name change in records in the United States from ending in Lithuanian and Polish.) I have trouble locating immigration and naturalization records for my paternal great grandfather, so I have no idea what village we are from over there. And as I am sure you are well aware the border changes in this area of Europe are maddening! My Father had also said that the Mongolians had affected our ancestry. So really I was not surprised that we ended up in this haplo, I had actually expected it. Years ago when all the hype started about the Ghengis Khan yDNA of C, I wanted to test my father thinking he would be that. Since I had tested myself, and I read more about it, especially after I have a Q cousin in my Family Finder. I just knew that would be our group. My father spoke highly of the Jewish people too. So I find it odd that he or his father would never mention us being Jewish in the past.

The Q1b's in Eastern Europe, most do appear to be Jewish. And I also would not be surprised if the markers for our test coincide with it when I upgrade. The interesting thing for me is that my Family Finder cousin who is Q does not match the Jewish cluster on the marker that I mentioned in the 67 marker test. His results there look really unique actually, meaning I think I saw only one other match for him there from Russia on ysearch.

As for the Khazar theory, I am not sure what to think. It is very controversial. I do think that more research needs to be done, and that other groups that are Q1b should not be ignored. Hazara who have some Q1b amongst them have oral traditions of being in the Horde. There are Kadom Tartar princes that are Q1b in Russia. Forum molgen has a great section on Haplogroup Q, but it is all in Russian. I have to put on the Google translate to read.

Also see here http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/01/lots-of-ancient-y-dna-from-china.html There was some Q1b found in ancient Y DNA from China. So I am most interested to get to the bottom of where our Q1b line comes from!

[Anglojew]

Anglojew thank you for the thread. My direct paternal line is Q probable Q1b. As I am female my brother took the test. What DNA company did you test with? We tested at Family Tree DNA when the 12 marker was on sale for only $39. I am waiting for the winter holiday sale to upgrade to the 67 marker. The project administrator of one of the groups that I joined my brother to was nice enough to send me a way to receive a coupon for $10 off any test. It will not be good to use with any promotions, so I plan to use it in the next few weeks to order the SNP test for SNP 245. This is the "Jewish Snp". There are a lot of guys though that have not tested for it, even ones that appear to be Jewish. So it would be great to know if some who have Jewish heritage and are Q if they could be negative for this marker.

Another marker that I have been told is part of the Jewish cluster for Q1b lies in the 67 marker test. It occurs on marker 395S1 I have been told. As for my own direct paternal line here is what I know. No traditions of being Jewish. My Father and grandfather said we are Lithuanian and Polish, but the last name is really Lithuanian. (The spellings on the end of the name change in records in the United States from ending in Lithuanian and Polish.) I have trouble locating immigration and naturalization records for my paternal great grandfather, so I have no idea what village we are from over there. And as I am sure you are well aware the border changes in this area of Europe are maddening! My Father had also said that the Mongolians had affected our ancestry. So really I was not surprised that we ended up in this haplo, I had actually expected it. Years ago when all the hype started about the Ghengis Khan yDNA of C, I wanted to test my father thinking he would be that. Since I had tested myself, and I read more about it, especially after I have a Q cousin in my Family Finder. I just knew that would be our group. My father spoke highly of the Jewish people too. So I find it odd that he or his father would never mention us being Jewish in the past.

The Q1b's in Eastern Europe, most do appear to be Jewish. And I also would not be surprised if the markers for our test coincide with it when I upgrade. The interesting thing for me is that my Family Finder cousin who is Q does not match the Jewish cluster on the marker that I mentioned in the 67 marker test. His results there look really unique actually, meaning I think I saw only one other match for him there from Russia on ysearch.

As for the Khazar theory, I am not sure what to think. It is very controversial. I do think that more research needs to be done, and that other groups that are Q1b should not be ignored. Hazara who have some Q1b amongst them have oral traditions of being in the Horde. There are Kadom Tartar princes that are Q1b in Russia. Forum molgen has a great section on Haplogroup Q, but it is all in Russian. I have to put on the Google translate to read.

Also see here http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/01/lots-of-ancient-y-dna-from-china.html There was some Q1b found in ancient Y DNA from China. So I am most interested to get to the bottom of where our Q1b line comes from!

After getting in touch with someone who runs one of the Q1b groups I've discounted the Khazar theory especially seeing as Assyrians have Q1b and my paternal ancestors have been traced to Germany and France prior to, or contemporaneously with, Khazaria.

I was tested with 23andme.

Initially I would say that you're almost certainly of Jewish ancestry but if you're male relatives aren't clustering with Q1b Jews maybe it's from another source eg direct from Siberia?

[Skywalker]

Hi Anglojew. Thanks for the clarification of where you tested. I just sent you a pm. Let me know if you received it. After submitting it I did not see it in my sent messages. So I'm not sure if I need to adjust settings to save sent messages? I'm new here.....it is late where I am at. Must get my beauty rest. If you did not get it I will resend it later.

[Transhumanist]

Ashkenazi Q1b should be L245, here is something interesting about that:

Although the number of STR markers tested do not allow their inclusion into this research piece, I took the liberty of comparing the sole Assyrian Y-DNA Haplogroup Q-M242 individual from the FTDNA Assyrian Heritage DNA Project to elaborate on their paternal ancestor's ultimate origins.

The Assyrian people are a Neo-Aramaic-speaking ethnic minority native to the land intersecting between Turkey, Iran and Iraq as well as the Mesopotamian basin. Modern Assyrians have (due to their Christian faith and recent historical events) practiced endogamous relationships, making them a genetically distinct group minimally affected by demic movements in the surrounding populations.

The Assyrian Y-DNA Q belongs to the Q1b1a-L245 subclade. As we have observed already, haplogroup Q1b-M378 tends to have a distribution governed more by geography with deeper cluster branches, implying greater diversification time in a given region.

At present, based on the available 10 overlapping STR's, the Assyrian Q1b1a-L245 individual matches Tur_yQP_3 best with a one-step mutation (9/10), placing them deep within Cluster C, the only one without a region-specific distribution. This preliminary evaluation indicates this Assyrian man's paternal ancestor shares Medieval genetic links with Anatolian Turkish, Iranian, Indian and Kazakh men, making a Central Asian Turkish connection likely once more.

http://vaedhya.blogspot.nl/2012/08/west-asian-y-dna-haplogroup-q-turkish.html

That is a post by our friend, DMXX. This was my reply, on another forum:


Which samples are of definitive Turkic origin? The Q-L245 subclade has been previously dubbed the "Ashkenazi" Q1b branch. On the FTDNA Q1b page, men derived for Q-L245 consist of one or more individuals from the following groups (may not be exclusive): Jewish (Ashkenazi and Mizrahi), NW Europeans (Dutch, Irish and German), Armenian, Saudi, Iraqi, and Assyrian. Marko Heinila, I believe based on his most recent work, dates the Q-L245 TMRCA to 2600 years. Right about the time of the fall of the Neo-Assyrian empire. Perhaps a foreign [eastern ?] element was introduced into the ME population at that time?

[Anglojew]

While Q1a is more Mongolian, Siberian and Native American, Q1b appears to have originated in Central Asia and migrated early to South Asia and the Middle East. The highest frequency of Q1b in Europe is found among Ashkenazi Jews (5%) and Sephardic Jews (2%), suggesting that Q1b was present in the Levant before the Jewish disapora 2,000 years ago. Q1b is also found in Lebanon (2%), and in isolated places settled by the Phoenicians in southern Europe (Crete, Sicily, south-west Iberia). This means that Q1b must have been present in the Levant at latest around 1200 BCE, a very long time before the Hunnic migrations. One hypothesis is that Q1b reached the Middle East alongside haplogroup R1a-Z93 with the Indo-Iranian migrations from Central Asia during the Late Bronze Age.




http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

Seems highly accurate

[curupira]

On 23andme, I share with a Moroccan Jew whose yDNA haplogroup is also Q1b. And the Oppenheimer from Frankfurt also have scored Q1b. It is likely it is traced back to the Near East, where it is also present.

[Transhumanist]

I'm interested in anything people know about this Haplogroup. 5% of Ashkenazi Jews have it and Haplogroup Q is found amongst other people in Europe;

Is it of Hunnic, Khazar or some other origin?

I have made a few recent posts on another forum regarding Q1b in Assyrians. Link (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution/page13).

[Transhumanist]

Ashkenazi Q1b should be L245, here is something interesting about that:

Although the number of STR markers tested do not allow their inclusion into this research piece, I took the liberty of comparing the sole Assyrian Y-DNA Haplogroup Q-M242 individual from the FTDNA Assyrian Heritage DNA Project to elaborate on their paternal ancestor's ultimate origins.

The Assyrian people are a Neo-Aramaic-speaking ethnic minority native to the land intersecting between Turkey, Iran and Iraq as well as the Mesopotamian basin. Modern Assyrians have (due to their Christian faith and recent historical events) practiced endogamous relationships, making them a genetically distinct group minimally affected by demic movements in the surrounding populations.

The Assyrian Y-DNA Q belongs to the Q1b1a-L245 subclade. As we have observed already, haplogroup Q1b-M378 tends to have a distribution governed more by geography with deeper cluster branches, implying greater diversification time in a given region.

At present, based on the available 10 overlapping STR's, the Assyrian Q1b1a-L245 individual matches Tur_yQP_3 best with a one-step mutation (9/10), placing them deep within Cluster C, the only one without a region-specific distribution. This preliminary evaluation indicates this Assyrian man's paternal ancestor shares Medieval genetic links with Anatolian Turkish, Iranian, Indian and Kazakh men, making a Central Asian Turkish connection likely once more.

http://vaedhya.blogspot.nl/2012/08/west-asian-y-dna-haplogroup-q-turkish.html

That is a post by our friend, DMXX. This was my reply, on another forum:


Which samples are of definitive Turkic origin? The Q-L245 subclade has been previously dubbed the "Ashkenazi" Q1b branch. On the FTDNA Q1b page, men derived for Q-L245 consist of one or more individuals from the following groups (may not be exclusive): Jewish (Ashkenazi and Mizrahi), NW Europeans (Dutch, Irish and German), Armenian, Saudi, Iraqi, and Assyrian. Marko Heinila, I believe based on his most recent work, dates the Q-L245 TMRCA to 2600 years. Right about the time of the fall of the Neo-Assyrian empire. Perhaps a foreign [eastern ?] element was introduced into the ME population at that time?

I should have added this very important bit from DMXX's original blog entry:


Addendum I [5/08/2012]: It has been brought to my attention that Tur_yQP_3, the Assyrian Q1b1a's best match, is in fact an Armenian individual. Although this does not compromise the conclusions reached above...

[MfA_]

It's present in Western Asia for a very long time, nothing to do with Khazars..

[Skywalker]

It's present in Western Asia for a very long time, nothing to do with Khazars..
I will tell you this the YHRD database has updated its populations. My brother is Q1b1a or known as Q-L245+. His top match there is to a Uighur at the 12 and 25 marker level as an exact match. At his 37 marker level he has no exact matches. Many of the Ashkenazi will match this Uighur at the level that they matched my brother. Quite frankly I am tired of this subclade of Q constantly being denied it's Central Asian origins. Sure they became Jewish, that is fine. They did not start out Jewish. There needs to be much more extensive research into this haplogroup by objective people. I would trust the Russian and the Chinese scientists to study this more. I am tired of people pushing political agendas. I do not know for sure if they had been Khazars or not, (and fine if they had been), but they started their journey out of the Central Asia. Even Hazaras have Q1b lineages in small amounts like the Jewish people, they also have oral traditions of being part of the Golden Horde.

[Anglojew]

I will tell you this the YHRD database has updated its populations. My brother is Q1b1a or known as Q-L245+. His top match there is to a Uighur at the 12 and 25 marker level as an exact match. At his 37 marker level he has no exact matches. Many of the Ashkenazi will match this Uighur at the level that they matched my brother. Quite frankly I am tired of this subclade of Q constantly being denied it's Central Asian origins. Sure they became Jewish, that is fine. They did not start out Jewish. There needs to be much more extensive research into this haplogroup by objective people. I would trust the Russian and the Chinese scientists to study this more. I am tired of people pushing political agendas. I do not know for sure if they had been Khazars or not, (and fine if they had been), but they started their journey out of the Central Asia. Even Hazaras have Q1b lineages in small amounts like the Jewish people, they also have oral traditions of being part of the Golden Horde.

So we're either Scythians, Khazars or Mongols?

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Interesting that it is present in the Cagliari-Carbonia area but nowhere else in Sardinia... I wonder how.

[Anglojew]

The Uyghars are themselves mixed race;


http://media.tumblr.com/c5af20804dc08ad64759f08f62682b6f/tumblr_inline_moq922Hl711qz4rgp.jpg

http://blog.opendoorsusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/e5bc9__Uyghur.jpg



So we can't discount a common origin for both elsewhere eg in Siberia with one group moving West and one group East.

[Anglojew]

Interesting that it is present in the Cagliari-Carbonia area but nowhere else in Sardinia... I wonder how.


I personally think that a Scythian group entered Persia about 3000 years ago then Assyria then Israel/Phoenicia and then Sardinia.

[Skywalker]

So we're either Scythians, Khazars or Mongols?
Yes I would think so. And then became Jewish. I really hope some of the scientists in the East will start to give us better data on this haplogroup. Really I find it offensive when an administrator of a DNA project blatantly ignores this information, and other information in regard to my family. And that is all I will say on that at this time.

I will add this again I think I posted it in the thread before. http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/01/lots-of-ancient-y-dna-from-china.html

[SardiniaAtlantis]

I personally think that a Scythian group entered Persia about 3000 years ago then Assyria then Israel/Phoenicia and then Sardinia.

Cagliari aka Karalis was a heavy hub of Phoenician traffic that would make sense...

[Skywalker]

Cagliari aka Karalis was a heavy hub of Phoenician traffic that would make sense...
One thing is for sure Q1b had been a very mobile group. They can be found all around in very small numbers.

[Skywalker]

The Uyghars are themselves mixed race;


http://media.tumblr.com/c5af20804dc08ad64759f08f62682b6f/tumblr_inline_moq922Hl711qz4rgp.jpg

http://blog.opendoorsusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/e5bc9__Uyghur.jpg



So we can't discount a common origin for both elsewhere eg in Siberia with one group moving West and one group East.
I would like to add this link. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people

[Anglojew]

I would like to add this link. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people


The Uyghurs are an Eurasian (mixed ancestry) population with Eastern and Western Eurasian anthropometric and genetic traits. Uyghurs are thus one of the many populations of Central Eurasia that can be considered to be genetically related to European and East Asian populations. However, various scientific studies differ on the size of each component.[73] One study, using samples from Hetian (Hotan) only, found that Uyghurs have 60% European ancestry and 40% East Asian ancestry

It makes more sense that they were a Europid or Proto-Eurpids moving East (and West). This would make sense as Uyghurs are the most easterly Europid group leading me to believe believe the origin of both groups was more Central eg in Central Asian Siberia.

[Smeagol]

Uyghurs are the most easterly Europid group

Uyghurs are predominantly Mongolid. This might have been different in the past though.

[Anglojew]

Uyghurs are predominantly Mongolid. This might have been different in the past though.

See above quote; "Uyghurs have 60% European ancestry and 40% East Asian ancestry."

Might be a Tocharian-Turkic hybrid population?

[Smeagol]

See above quote; "Uyghurs have 60% European ancestry and 40% East Asian ancestry."

Might be a Tocharian-Turkic hybrid population?

European ancestry varies in the Uyghurs from what I read. Probably a Tocharian-Turkic hybrid though, yes.

[Anglojew]

Haplogroup P diverged into Q and R at ~24.1 kya, slightly before the LGM. Most Q individuals in Han Chinese belong to the Q1a1-M120 clade, while R’s in Han Chinese are mostly R1a1-M17. The separation events of R1 and R2, and R1a and R1b are estimated here at 19.9 and 14.8 kya, respectively. R1b roamed till the Atlantic coast, forming some of the non-Indo-European groups (e.g. Basque)32.


http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2769/hxzk.png

It seems Q wasn't originally Siberian after all but originated in Central Asia
http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/search?updated-max=2013-10-27T04:56:00-07:00&max-results=7

[Skywalker]

It seems Q wasn't originally Siberian after all but originated in Central Asia

Hi Angojew, Happy New Year! Yes this is what I had been saying. :-) Anyway here is what it states from Family Tree DNA about Haplogroup Q on the Haplotree and SNP page. This will show whether you are a Q1a or a Q1b.
"About My Haplogroup
The Q lineage is the lineage that links Asia and the Americas. This lineage is found in North and Central Asian populations as well as native Americans. Among European populations, haplogroup Q is found most frequently in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia. This lineage is believed to have originated in Central Asia and migrated through the Altai / Baikal region of northern Eurasia into the Americas."

[Skywalker]

And Anglojew here is some serious research that we have both been looking for in reference to haplogroup Q1b. This is a very recent scientific article about the phylogenetic structure of Q-M378 subclade, also known as Q1b1. Keep in mind that Q-L275 or Q1b is the main branch and then it is Q-M378. Our branch of Q-L245 then branches off of the Q-M378. They have studied several FULL Y chromosome sequences of various Q1b men for this study! Enjoy the read. :-) http://rjgg.org/index.php/RJGGRE/article/view/134 And a big thank you again to all who had been involved making this research possible.

Here is also a nice visual to help understand the structure. When you open the link a pop up ad might show just close it out to the upper right of the ad. Anyway I think it is a great visual tool, and I really hope it will be utilized in a DNA project. http://image-upload.de/file/5skoW4/57c8b19706.jpg

[Skywalker]

Anglojew here another link that provides a clearer picture of that graphic for subclades of Q-M378. http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=1407 The Russian version of this forum has an excellent section on all of Haplogroup Q. The English one is good too, but the Russians in general seem more interested so there is more talk at that one.

[Anglojew]

The latest detailed studies show early Q's were Indo-Europeans (which makes sense given it's the sister group of R)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t31/1483774_186091991592269_1920299087_o.jpg

[alfred.f.krupa]

Over the past decade, Chinese archaeologists have published several
reviews regarding the results of excavations in Xinjiang. Particularly
interesting are in the cemetery Heigouliang, Xinjiang (Black Gouliang
cemetery), east of Barkol basin, near the city of Hami.

By typing results of DNA samples during the excavation of one of the
tombs it was determined that of the 12 men there were: Q1a - 6, Q1b(1)
(M378) - 4, Q-2 (unable to determine subclade).

Hosts of the tombs were representatives of Y-haplogroup Q1b(1)- M378
exclusively (while Y-DNA Q1a represents sacrificial victims). They
date from the time of early (Western) Han (2-1 century BC).

Summarizing the data from available evidences, it is concluded that
the tomb belongs to the representatives of the Xiongnu/Hunnu
aristocracy/conquerors.[20][21][22]

This haplogroup appears in modern day Japanese of Japan, Mongols of
Mongolia[23],Turkic Uyghurs of Xinjiang[24][25] and Ashkenazi Jews
[26].

It is connected with the fact that branch of Ashina Clan was Judaised
in Khazarian Empire in 8th century. It is also considered consistent
with Chinese sources claims about origin of Ashina clan within
Xiongnu/Hunnu [27].

References are:

20.-Y chromosomes of ancient Hunnu people and its implication on the
phylogeny of East Asian linguistic families. LL. Kang et al., 2013
21.-Knowing the Xiongnu Culture in Eastern Tianshan Mountain from Tomb
Heigouliang and Dongheigou Site at the Beginning of Xihan Dynasty,
RenMeng, WangJianXin, 2008
22.-Y-Chromosome Genetic Diversity of the Ancient North Chinese
populations, Li Hongjie, Jilin University-China, 2012
23.-Y-chromosome lineage in five regional Mongolian populations,
Toshimichi Yamamoto, Tomoki sending, Daiki Horiba, Masayoshi Sakuma,
Yuuka Kawaguchi, Yuuichi Kano Department of Legal Medicine and
Bioethics, Graduate School of Medicine, Nagoya University, Japan, 2013
24.-Extended Y Chromosome Investigation Suggests Postglacial
Migrations of Modern Humans into East Asia via the Northern Route" Hua
Zhong et. al 2010
25.-Wenjuan Shan et al. , Genetic polymorphism of 17 Y chromosomal
STRs in Kazakh and Uighur populations from Xinjiang, China, 2014
26.-The update of the phylogenetic structure of Q1b haplogroup based
on full Y-chromosome sequencing Vladimir Gurianov, Roman Sychyev,
Vladimir Tagankin, Vadim Urasin, 2014
27.-The ancestors of the ancient Turks, under a name Ashina, were a
separate branch of the House of Hunnu (Huns)." -- the Zhou (551–583)
Dynastic history


To above information it should be added that currently available
haplotpyes of North Chinese Uyghur Q1b are full match to Ashkenazi
Q1b.

Source:http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/






I'm interested in anything people know about this Haplogroup. 5% of Ashkenazi Jews have it and Haplogroup Q is found amongst other people in Europe;

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

Is it of Hunnic, Khazar or some other origin?

[alfred.f.krupa]

So is this an ancient genetic occurrence or medieval?


Also, one must check all L245 branches (subclades). There is two Ashkenazi branches separate from other European, West, and South Asian L245 (Q1b1a) and other Jewish (North Africa).Some L245 is older than the other.

Ashkenazi Q1b1a (L245) TMRCA is recent, it goes from 1000-700 years ago. In future, I am in hope that we will see more precise calculation based on new data and evidences.

It is almost sure that Ashkenazi Q1b1a originate in Xiongnu - Eastern or Asian Hun/Hunnu Empire. The question remains how it entered into Ashkenazi population.

[Anglojew]

Also, one must check all L245 branches (subclades). There is two Ashkenazi branches separate from other European, West, and South Asian L245 (Q1b1a) and other Jewish (North Africa).Some L245 is older than the other.

Ashkenazi Q1b1a (L245) TMRCA is recent, it goes from 1000-700 years ago. In future, I am in hope that we will see more precise calculation based on new data and evidences.

It is almost sure that Ashkenazi Q1b1a originate in Xiongnu - Eastern or Asian Hun/Hunnu Empire. The question remains how it entered into Ashkenazi population.

Khazars/Huns probably

[alfred.f.krupa]

Khazars/Huns probably

JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY:

The Origin of the Khazars

The Khazars, of Turkic stock, originally nomadic, reached the Volga-Caucasus region from farther east at some time not easily determinable. They may have belonged to the empire of the Huns (fifth century C.E.) as the Akatzirs, mentioned by Priscus. This name is said to be equivalent to Aq-Khazar, i.e., White Khazars, as opposed to the Qara-Khazar or Black Khazars mentioned by al-Iṣṭakhrī (see below). The Khazars probably belonged to the West Turkish Empire (from 552 C.E.), and they may have marched with Sinjibū (Istämi), the first khāqān of the West Turks, against the Sassanid (Persian) fortress of Ṣul or Darband

In the time of Procopius (sixth century) the region immediately north of the Caucasus was held by the Sabirs, who are referred to by Jordanes as one of the two great branches of the Huns (Getica, ed. Mommsen, 63). Masʿūdī (tenth century C.E.) says that the Khazars are called in Turkish, Sabīr (Tanbīh, ed. Cairo, 1938, 72).

In 627 (Theophanes, Chronographia, ed. De Boor, 1 (1883), 315) "the Turks from the East whom they call Khazars" under their chief, Ziebel, passed the Caspian Gates (Darband) and joined Heraclius at the siege of Tiflis. In view of what is known of a dual kingship among the Khazars (see below), it would be natural to assume that Ziebel, described by Theophanes as "second in rank to the khāqān," was the subordinate Khazar king or beg. However, there are grounds for thinking that Ziebel stands for yabgu, a Turkish title – in the parallel Armenian account (Moses of Kalankatuk, trans. Dowsett, 87) he is called Jebu Khāqān – and that he is T'ung-ye-hu, Ye-hu Khagan of the Chinese sources, i.e., T'ung Yabgu, Yabgu Khāqān, the paramount ruler of the West Turks, who is represented as second in rank to "the King of the North, the lord of the whole world," i.e., the supreme khāqān of the Turks. In the narratives of Theophanes and Moses of Kalankatuk respectively, the Khazars are also called Turks and Huns. From 681 C.E., we hear much in the latter author of the Huns of Varach ʿ an (Warathān), north of Darband, who evidently formed part of a Khazar confederation or empire. Their prince Alp Ilutver was often in attendance on the Khazar khāqān and was converted to Christianity by an Albanian bishop.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/khazars.html

[alfred.f.krupa]

Khazars/Huns probably

JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY:

The Origin of the Khazars

The Khazars, of Turkic stock, originally nomadic, reached the Volga-Caucasus region from farther east at some time not easily determinable. They may have belonged to the empire of the Huns (fifth century C.E.) as the Akatzirs, mentioned by Priscus. This name is said to be equivalent to Aq-Khazar, i.e., White Khazars, as opposed to the Qara-Khazar or Black Khazars mentioned by al-Iṣṭakhrī (see below). The Khazars probably belonged to the West Turkish Empire (from 552 C.E.), and they may have marched with Sinjibū (Istämi), the first khāqān of the West Turks, against the Sassanid (Persian) fortress of Ṣul or Darband

In the time of Procopius (sixth century) the region immediately north of the Caucasus was held by the Sabirs, who are referred to by Jordanes as one of the two great branches of the Huns (Getica, ed. Mommsen, 63). Masʿūdī (tenth century C.E.) says that the Khazars are called in Turkish, Sabīr (Tanbīh, ed. Cairo, 1938, 72).

In 627 (Theophanes, Chronographia, ed. De Boor, 1 (1883), 315) "the Turks from the East whom they call Khazars" under their chief, Ziebel, passed the Caspian Gates (Darband) and joined Heraclius at the siege of Tiflis. In view of what is known of a dual kingship among the Khazars (see below), it would be natural to assume that Ziebel, described by Theophanes as "second in rank to the khāqān," was the subordinate Khazar king or beg. However, there are grounds for thinking that Ziebel stands for yabgu, a Turkish title – in the parallel Armenian account (Moses of Kalankatuk, trans. Dowsett, 87) he is called Jebu Khāqān – and that he is T'ung-ye-hu, Ye-hu Khagan of the Chinese sources, i.e., T'ung Yabgu, Yabgu Khāqān, the paramount ruler of the West Turks, who is represented as second in rank to "the King of the North, the lord of the whole world," i.e., the supreme khāqān of the Turks. In the narratives of Theophanes and Moses of Kalankatuk respectively, the Khazars are also called Turks and Huns. From 681 C.E., we hear much in the latter author of the Huns of Varach ʿ an (Warathān), north of Darband, who evidently formed part of a Khazar confederation or empire. Their prince Alp Ilutver was often in attendance on the Khazar khāqān and was converted to Christianity by an Albanian bishop.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/khazars.html

[alfred.f.krupa]

Q1b1a (L245) in Near East and Asia Minor-possible genetic legacy of Hun campaigns

In my own Y-DNA results at FTDNA I have noted a very few, but present non Jewish matches in Iran, Iraq, Turkey/Armenia.

I think that Encyclopedia Iranica provides interesting insight when it comes to the description of the "European Huns" activity in Near East:
.....

A direct confrontation between the Huns and the Persian empire first occurred twenty years after the beginning of the great migration. In the summer of 395, hordes of Huns crossed the Don near its estuary, turned southeast, and made their way through the Caucasus into Persia and the Roman provinces. While the plundering of the Roman areas is variously attested (for sources, see Maenchen-Helfen, pp. 38-42), only Priscus (frag. 11) and the Liber Calipharum (Chronicon miscellaneum 3.4; tr., pp. 106-7) report the invasion of the Persian empire. Under the leadership of Basikh and Koursikh, a detachment of Huns rode down the valleys of the Euphrates and Tigris to Ctesiphon. Upon the news that a Persian army was marching towards them, the Huns turned back; but they were eventually caught. The Persians then managed to kill some of the Huns, to take almost their entire booty from them, and allegedly to free 18,000 prisoners. The rest of the Huns troops made their way back into the steppe over the Darband pass. This inroad into Persia was remembered by the Romans and the Huns more than fifty years later: when Priscus was staying at Attila’s court in 449 C.E., he heard from the Western Roman envoy Romulus that the king was planning a campaign against Persia, which was to be carried out on the route previously taken by Basikh and Koursikh (Priscus, frag. 11). Attila’s death in 453 C.E. saved the Sasanians from an armed encounter with the Huns while they were at the height of their military power.
.....

A tribe which soon after 500 C.E. invaded northern Iran and was simply called “Huns” (Ounnoi) by Procopius (Bella 1.8) might be identified with the Sabires themselves, who from then on participated in the Persian-Byzantine wars for several decades, siding alternately with the Persians and the Eastern Romans. In the conflicts of the mid-6th century, both warring parties were supported by Sabire detachments. After having fought on the Persian side in 573 C.E., the Sabires subjected themselves a year later to the Eastern Roman emperor and were settled in the Byzantine part of Armenia (Moravcsik, I, p. 68).

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/huns

[alfred.f.krupa]

"The Cambridge History of Early Inner Asia" expands previous information with the fact that Hun Army in 395-396 (up to perhaps even 398) (THE GREAT HUN RAID) under leadership of BASIKH and KOURSIKH (first known by names Hun arkhontes-high ranking military commander, grand prince, lord, monarch) also Armenia, Syria, Palestine (!) and Northern Mesopotamia.

http://librarum.org/book/38133/192

[Anglojew]

JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY:

The Origin of the Khazars

The Khazars, of Turkic stock, originally nomadic, reached the Volga-Caucasus region from farther east at some time not easily determinable. They may have belonged to the empire of the Huns (fifth century C.E.) as the Akatzirs, mentioned by Priscus. This name is said to be equivalent to Aq-Khazar, i.e., White Khazars, as opposed to the Qara-Khazar or Black Khazars mentioned by al-Iṣṭakhrī (see below). The Khazars probably belonged to the West Turkish Empire (from 552 C.E.), and they may have marched with Sinjibū (Istämi), the first khāqān of the West Turks, against the Sassanid (Persian) fortress of Ṣul or Darband

In the time of Procopius (sixth century) the region immediately north of the Caucasus was held by the Sabirs, who are referred to by Jordanes as one of the two great branches of the Huns (Getica, ed. Mommsen, 63). Masʿūdī (tenth century C.E.) says that the Khazars are called in Turkish, Sabīr (Tanbīh, ed. Cairo, 1938, 72).

In 627 (Theophanes, Chronographia, ed. De Boor, 1 (1883), 315) "the Turks from the East whom they call Khazars" under their chief, Ziebel, passed the Caspian Gates (Darband) and joined Heraclius at the siege of Tiflis. In view of what is known of a dual kingship among the Khazars (see below), it would be natural to assume that Ziebel, described by Theophanes as "second in rank to the khāqān," was the subordinate Khazar king or beg. However, there are grounds for thinking that Ziebel stands for yabgu, a Turkish title – in the parallel Armenian account (Moses of Kalankatuk, trans. Dowsett, 87) he is called Jebu Khāqān – and that he is T'ung-ye-hu, Ye-hu Khagan of the Chinese sources, i.e., T'ung Yabgu, Yabgu Khāqān, the paramount ruler of the West Turks, who is represented as second in rank to "the King of the North, the lord of the whole world," i.e., the supreme khāqān of the Turks. In the narratives of Theophanes and Moses of Kalankatuk respectively, the Khazars are also called Turks and Huns. From 681 C.E., we hear much in the latter author of the Huns of Varach ʿ an (Warathān), north of Darband, who evidently formed part of a Khazar confederation or empire. Their prince Alp Ilutver was often in attendance on the Khazar khāqān and was converted to Christianity by an Albanian bishop.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/khazars.html

Are you actually Alfred Krupa? Welcome to the forum my long lost cousin, I've read a lot of your research.

I think this makes a lot of sense and explains the links between our haplogroup and the Khazars, Huns AND Bulgars.

[Anglojew]

"The Cambridge History of Early Inner Asia" expands previous information with the fact that Hun Army in 395-396 (up to perhaps even 398) (THE GREAT HUN RAID) under leadership of BASIKH and KOURSIKH (first known by names Hun arkhontes-high ranking military commander, grand prince, lord, monarch) also Armenia, Syria, Palestine (!) and Northern Mesopotamia.

http://librarum.org/book/38133/192

There's almost an exact overlap between Q1b in Europe and the Huns (and Khazars):

http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/Huns_450ad.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--93JQnaEo1E/UKmEdHnBCII/AAAAAAAAADc/WwcQsiM8CO8/s1600/Haplogroup-Q.gif

The northern Q's are mostly Q1a.

[Longbowman]

Look, here's the main and kind of insurmountable problem with associating Q1b with Khazars: it appears in non-AJ Levantines at approximately the same frequency.

[Anglojew]

Look, here's the main and kind of insurmountable problem with associating Q1b with Khazars: it appears in non-AJ Levantines at approximately the same frequency.

Yes, it's more likely that this could be explained via the Hunnic (or Scythian) attacks on ancient Judea/Palestine, as outlined above by the Baron Krupa. There could be multiple sources of Q, including Khazars later, also.

[StonyArabia]

Look, here's the main and kind of insurmountable problem with associating Q1b with Khazars: it appears in non-AJ Levantines at approximately the same frequency.

Due to Seljuks

[Anglojew]

Due to Seljuks

Its proven to pre-date the Seljuks (studies on Assyrian Qs show).

[StonyArabia]

Its proven to pre-date the Seljuks (studies on Assyrian Qs show).

It would be interesting to see where it came from.

[Anglojew]

It would be interesting to see where it came from.

Persia/Scyths/Huns

[Longbowman]

Due to Seljuks

Extremely doubtful considering Sephardics were not in the Levant at the time.

The haplogroup existed in the Levant before the Exodus and almost certainly well before 1,000BC.

[alfred.f.krupa]

Persia/Scyths/Huns

Lets recall the fact that paleo DNA research conducted at Jilin University revealed Y-DNA of 4 bodies of "master of the tombs" (together with 8 sacrifical victims - Q1a, Q). Those "upper social stratum" belongs to Q1b-M378 (further subclade uknown at present).
This 12 body tomb is located at Barkol, near Hami City and oasis in Xinjiang, dated to 1-2 century BC.

Is there any particular significance of Barkol?

Barkol was area not directly affected with Xiongnu defeat by Han and it is location where the last elected Chanyu of Northern Xiongnu (Yuchujian Chanyu ,Fenghou) was elected and reigned (91-93).

Barkol was place of last organized Xiongnu resistance.

Yuchujian Chanyu's older brother is known in history as the the Northern Chanyu (Chinese: 北單于; pinyin: Běi Chányú; Wade–Giles: Pei Ch'anyü, reigned 89–91). In February 91, he was defeated by Geng Kui during the Battle of Altai Mountains, on an expedition sent by Dou Xian, and thence vanished from history.

At the same time Hunnoi are first mentioned in the west by Tacitus as being near the Caspian Sea in 91 AD, hence the belief that Pei Chanyu might have travelled west.

Ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Chanyu_%281st_century%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ikh_Bayan#cite_note-10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_Shang

[alfred.f.krupa]

Are you actually Alfred Krupa? Welcome to the forum my long lost cousin, I've read a lot of your research.

I think this makes a lot of sense and explains the links between our haplogroup and the Khazars, Huns AND Bulgars.

Yes, It is me. You can friend me at facebook, if you like. To be in touch.

[Ars Moriendi]

Sibero-Amerind.

[igo112]

...

[Anglojew]

Yes, It is me. You can friend me at facebook, if you like. To be in touch.

Thanks, your reputation precedes you. It's great you joined the forum.

[Anglojew]

Lets recall the fact that paleo DNA research conducted at Jilin University revealed Y-DNA of 4 bodies of "master of the tombs" (together with 8 sacrifical victims - Q1a, Q). Those "upper social stratum" belongs to Q1b-M378 (further subclade uknown at present).
This 12 body tomb is located at Barkol, near Hami City and oasis in Xinjiang, dated to 1-2 century BC.

Is there any particular significance of Barkol?

Barkol was area not directly affected with Xiongnu defeat by Han and it is location where the last elected Chanyu of Northern Xiongnu (Yuchujian Chanyu ,Fenghou) was elected and reigned (91-93).

Barkol was place of last organized Xiongnu resistance.

Yuchujian Chanyu's older brother is known in history as the the Northern Chanyu (Chinese: 北單于; pinyin: Běi Chányú; Wade–Giles: Pei Ch'anyü, reigned 89–91). In February 91, he was defeated by Geng Kui during the Battle of Altai Mountains, on an expedition sent by Dou Xian, and thence vanished from history.

At the same time Hunnoi are first mentioned in the west by Tacitus as being near the Caspian Sea in 91 AD, hence the belief that Pei Chanyu might have travelled west.

Ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Chanyu_%281st_century%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ikh_Bayan#cite_note-10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_Shang

Interesting. Couldn't a Scythian/Central Asian elite have taken over the entire steppes i.e. moving East AND West merging with proto-Huns and proto-Turks?

[alfred.f.krupa]

52757

Despite the fact that Mongolia is still one of the most isolated and one of the most sparsely populated countries in world, Y-DNA Q1b has been detected by researchers from Department of Legal Medicine and Bioethics, Graduate School of Medicine, Nagoya University, Japan in allfFive regional populations (Ulaangom, Dalandzadgad, Ulaanbaatar,Undurkhaan,Choibalsan) in Mongolia and even in Japanese population (日本人 Nihonjin, Nipponjin).
Therefore this finding is of etreme importance due to the reason that near Mongolian southern border is location of cemetery Heigouliang, Xinjiang (Black Gouliang cemetery), east of Barkol basin, near the city of Hami. By typing results of DNA samples during the excavation of one of the tombs it was determined that of the 12 men there were: Q1a - 6, Q1b (M378) - 4, Q-2 (unable to determine subclade). Hosts of the tombs were representatives of Y-haplogroup Q1b-M378 exclusively (while Y-DNA Q1a represents sacrificial victims). They date from the time of early (Western) Han (2-1 century BC). In the very same location today Turkic Uygurs shows Q1b haplotypes very close if not the same as Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b(1a).

Source of attached table: http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768%2813%2900134-0/fulltext#tbl0005

[alfred.f.krupa]

Except ancient DNA Q1b(1)-M378 founded in Barkol cemetery dated to the Early Han Dynasty (2nd-1st century BC), there is another paleo DNA Q1b in Xinjiang 1800 years old.

"In addition, its sub-haplogroups Q1a and Q1b have been found in 1,800-year-old samples from the Xinjiang province of China (Li, 2012), a critical region of population admixture between western and eastern Eurasia".

Ref:
Ancient DNA evidence reveals that the Y chromosome haplogroup Q1a1 admixed into the Han Chinese 3,000 years ago , Yong-Bin Zhao, Ye Zhang, Hong-Jie Li, Ying-Qiu Cui, Hong Zhu andHui Zhou

http://www.eastbound88.com/archive/index.php/t-31814.html

[YelaWolf]

i am q1b and n2

[Anglojew]

i am q1b and n2

Interesting. We're related.

[Afshar]

Is it all Q1b here, I'm Q1a

[Charles Bronson]

Q1a1b.

[Rethel]

Q1a1b.

http://www.big-bang-forum.de/images/smiley/howgh.gif


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61836&d=1473094247
61836

[Afshar]

Q1a1b.

I would like to know your subgroup and where you did test

[Charles Bronson]

I would like to know your subgroup and where you did test



I make soon a thread, then you know everything about my DNA.

[Rethel]

Obligatory for eurasian Q-men:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2e4M7T4c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABFZs5N4Q6g

[Profileid]

http://www.big-bang-forum.de/images/smiley/howgh.gif


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61836&d=1473094247
61836

Disney made Pochahantas look like a playboy centerfold as opposed to the older more wholesome days of snow white
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ul0Ruo0-L2Y/TS3iGEAS21I/AAAAAAAAA7c/Vg--b-QH3Kk/s1600/snow_white.jpg

[Afshar]

I make soon a thread, then you know everything about my DNA.

Where did you test?
Seems to me you are trolling

[Rethel]

Apocalypto of Mel Gibson - probably the best made movie
about Q-mans in native Q language. Every Qman should see...
Unfortunatly (but for Q-bearers fortunatly!) in english is probably
available only with subtitles... I didnt find version with lector.

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/23600000/Apocalypto-apocalypto-23630592-1280-1024.jpg

[Afshar]

Apocalypto of Mel Gibson - probably the best made movie
about Q-mans in native Q language. Every Qman should see...
Unfortunatly (but for Q-bearers fortunatly!) in english is probably
available only with subtitles... I didnt find version with lector.

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/23600000/Apocalypto-apocalypto-23630592-1280-1024.jpg

Altough Native Americans represent a big portion of Q Number wise their subgroup is distant from the rest