PDA

View Full Version : Do Anime/Manga characters look "white"? (Article)



Elsa
08-02-2013, 02:44 PM
http://sailormusic.net/covers/singles/thumbnails-med/PC%20Engine%20Sailor%20Moon.jpg

The Face of the Other

By Matt Thorn

I have given presentations on manga to Western audiences many times, but regardless of the particular themes of my talks, when the floor is opened up for discussion I am invariably asked the same question: “Why do all the characters look Caucasian?” You may have asked yourself the same question.

I answer that question with a question of my own: “Why do you think they look Caucasian?” “Because of the round eyes,” or the “blonde hair,” is the common response. When I ask then if the questioner actually knows anyone, “Caucasian” or otherwise, who really looks anything like these highly stylized cartoons, the response may be, “Well, they look more Caucasian than Asian.” Considering the wide range of variation in the features of persons of both European and East Asian descent, and the fact that these line drawings fall nowhere remotely within that range, it seems odd to claim that such cartoons look “more like” one people than another, but I hope you will see by now that what is being discussed has nothing to do with objective anatomical reality, but is rather about signification.

A key concept in semiotics is that of “markedness” and “unmarkedness,” elaborated by linguist Roman Jakobson in the 1930s. An “unmarked” category is one that is taken for granted, that is so obvious to both speaker and listener it needs no marking. A “marked” category, by contrast, is one that is seen as deviating from the norm, and therefore requires marking. Well-known examples in English are the words “man” and “woman.” “Man” has for a millennium meant both “human being” and “adult male human being.” The word “woman” comes from a compound meaning “wife-man,” and denotes the relationship of the signified to that “unmarked” category, “man.”

In the case of cartooning, of course, we are dealing with drawn representations rather than words, but the concept of “marked/unmarked” is every bit as salient. In the case of the U.S., and indeed the entire European-dominated world, the unmarked category in drawn representations would be the face of the European. The European face is, as it were, the default face. Draw a circle, add two dots for eyes and a line for a mouth, and you have, in the European sphere, a European face. (More specifically, you would have a male European face. The addition of eyelashes would make it female.) Non-Europeans, however, must be marked in drawn or painted representations, just as they commonly are in daily conversation (e.g., “I have this Black friend who...”).

The grotesque racial and ethnic stereotyping of former decades has been largely purged from the mainstream, but only to be replaced by less offensive, yet nonetheless stereotyped, signifiers. Non-Europeans living in a European-dominated society absorb these standards themselves, and not only are continuously made to be aware of their “otherness,” but adhere, out of necessity, to the Eurocentric system of signification. If an American of Asian descent wants to create a children’s book intended to build self-esteem among Asian American children and educate other children about Asian American experiences, she must first make sure the readers know that the characters represented are Asian, and so, consciously or not, she resorts to stereotyped signifiers that are easily recognizable, such as “slanted” eyes (an exaggerated representation of the epicanthic fold that is often, but not always, more pronounced in East Asians than in Europeans or Africans) or pitch black, straight hair (regardless of the fact that East Asian hair can range from near-black to reddish brown, and is often wavy or even frizzy). So it is that Americans and others raised in European-dominated societies, regardless of their background, will see a circle with two dots for eyes and a line for a mouth, free of racial signifiers, as “white.”

Japan, however, is not and never has been a European-dominated society. The Japanese are not Other within their own borders, and therefore drawn (or painted or sculpted) representations of, by and for Japanese do not, as a rule, include stereotyped racial markers. A circle with two dots for eyes and a line for a mouth is, by default, Japanese.

It should come as no surprise, then, that Japanese readers should have no trouble accepting the stylized characters in manga, with their small jaws, all but nonexistent noses, and famously enormous eyes as “Japanese.” Unless the characters are clearly identified as foreign, Japanese readers see them as Japanese, and it would never occur to most readers that they might be otherwise, regardless of whether non-Japanese observers think the characters look Japanese or not.

When non-Japanese characters appear in a manga in which most characters are Japanese, that character will be differentiated from the others with stereotyped racial markers of some kind. For example, a character of African descent may be shown with pronounced lips, frizzy hair, and shaded skin. A European character may be shown with a pronounced nose and jutting jaw.

Such is my argument, but many find it unconvincing. They insist that manga characters are unmistakably “Caucasian,” and that the ubiquity of Caucasian characters in manga and Japanese popular culture generally are clear indicators of a desire on the part of Japanese to identify themselves with the European West, rather than the Asian East. Indeed a number of Western scholars have suggested that Japanese today harbor just such a desire, that they deny their “Asianness” and try instead to identify themselves with the Western, “white,” Center. The curious fact that Chinese characters appearing in manga are often portrayed using the same markers of “Asianness” (slanted eyes, straight black hair) common in Western representations may seem to be irrefutable evidence of this assertion.

Yet such assertions are rife with flaws. First of all, they seem to take domestic concepts of ethnic identity that have developed in the politically charged context of an ethnically diverse society, such as the U.S. or the U.K., and apply them wholesale to Japan, a foreign society, as if the Japanese were just another “minority” vis-a-vis a European American “majority.” For Asian Americans to assert their “Asianness” (regardless of whether or not such a trait actually exists) may be politically meaningful in the context of U.S. society, but it certainly does not follow that Japanese, or any other Asian people, should, or meaningfully could, embrace a similar identity.

Second, the notion that the Japanese harbor an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the White West seems to me based on the largely unconscious assumption that non-Western peoples envy the West, and more specifically on the American fantasy that everyone in the world naturally wants to be American. Of course, the scholars and intellectuals who note such tendencies in Japan do not applaud it; on the contrary, they cluck their tongues and wring their hands and wish loudly that the Japanese would shun the temptations of the West and remain true to and proud of their heritage. But the eagerness with which they seek out evidence of a desire to be “white,” and the stubbornness with which they ignore evidence to the contrary, suggests to me that their apprehension of social reality is heavily filtered through an unintended ethnocentrism.

Finally, the evidence of such an inferiority complex is hardly conclusive, and there seems to me to be as much evidence against it as there is for it. For example, the case of stereotyped representation of Chinese in manga can be explained without concluding that the Japanese identify themselves with the White West. Setting aside manga in which stereotypes are used to get a laugh, or to assert a racist viewpoint (and that does happen from time to time), racial stereotypes usually appear in manga only when the stereotyped character is a minority within the story. A Chinese character in a manga set in Japan is marked, through stereotyped visual markers (and often speech habits, too), so as to distinguish her from the Japanese characters, who are in the unmarked category.

Interestingly, in a manga in which Chinese or European characters are the majority, such as a story set in China or Europe, majority characters are generally drawn exactly as Japanese characters would be drawn in a manga set in Japan, without any racial stereotyping at all. In the context of such a story, the Chinese or European characters are not Other, and markings of Otherness would be superfluous. The artist would make the foreign setting obvious through names, clothing, customs, architecture, and “props,” rather than burdening every character with stereotyped racial features, which would limit her ability to distinguish characters from each other, and would also make it difficult for readers to identify with protagonists. Furthermore, if a Japanese character appears in such a story, she will usually be marked visually as Japanese, although usually only by black hair and eyes. (Readers are often expected to identify with such characters, and more exaggerated markings would interfere with that identification.)

Racial markings in manga, therefore, are generally relative. By contrast, an American comic book set in Japan or China would most likely portray every character with stereotyped racial signifiers (and probably with contrived accents, as well). It may be that Westerners, accustomed to non-relative, standardized racial markers, are baffled by the Japanese system of relative signification, in which a single artist may portray a Chinese character one way in one story (set in Japan), and very differently in another (set in China).

It may be true that Japanese are, on average, often ambivalent towards the West, towards America, and towards all things not Japanese. And, yes, they are often sharply critical of their own society, and may sometimes look to other societies for preferable alternatives. But in these respects, they seem to me to be pretty much like any other people. It seems to me there are far more interesting questions to explore, and so I will say no more on the subject, though I have no doubt that some of my readers will be reluctant to drop entirely the question of whether or not the Japanese want to be “white.”

http://www.matt-thorn.com/mangagaku/faceoftheother.html

YeshAtid
08-02-2013, 02:44 PM
no

Loki
08-02-2013, 02:45 PM
Yes :)

YeshAtid
08-02-2013, 02:46 PM
Yes :)

You think so?

Loki
08-02-2013, 02:48 PM
You think so?

More than others.

CrystalMaiden
08-02-2013, 02:51 PM
:lol:

Elsa
08-02-2013, 03:33 PM
A European character may be shown with a pronounced nose and jutting jaw.
I have heard of this before. It seems East Asians view Europeans as having large noses.

Graham
08-02-2013, 04:52 PM
They look like dolls.

Elsa
08-02-2013, 11:45 PM
Bump

mr. logan
08-02-2013, 11:48 PM
They look like their gods. White.

Chieftain
08-02-2013, 11:49 PM
Most of them look white, the two most famous anime/mangas famous in my time(still famous today) like DragonBall and Naruto had 99% of white european countries.

Also, something that caught my attention was the blue eyed, blond hair transformation of the Saiyan race..

Gorštak
08-02-2013, 11:53 PM
Most of them look white, the two most famous anime/mangas famous in my time(still famous today) like DragonBall and Naruto had 99% of white european countries.

Also, something that caught my attention was the blue eyed, blond hair transformation of the Saiyan race..

lol, in dbz half of "humans" don't have nose, or have three eyes or look like some animal.


But General Blue was obvious pure white race Caucasian, strong, tall and blond, something like Nikolaos Michaloliakos
http://zaslike.com/files/qph66dmyr2b9omjhaxsr.png

gregorius
08-02-2013, 11:56 PM
The stronger goku gets the more aryan he gets, until he is in ultimate form Ssj4 where he is a True Armenoid :cool:: hairy,black hair,deepset eyes.

Shah-Jehan
08-02-2013, 11:58 PM
^Lol, Saiyajins are shown as savages in the three series...

gregorius
08-02-2013, 11:59 PM
^^ they are the true master race :laugh:

Kiyant
08-02-2013, 11:59 PM
^Lol, Saiyajins are shown as savages in the three series...

Well they go to another planets and enslave the population.........
OMG THE SAYAJIN ARE EUROPEAN IMPERIALISTS :)

gregorius
08-03-2013, 12:02 AM
lol, in dbz half of "humans" don't have nose, or have three eyes or look like some animal.


But General Blue was obvious pure white race Caucasian, strong, tall and blond, something like Nikolaos Michaloliakos
http://zaslike.com/files/qph66dmyr2b9omjhaxsr.png

He was supposed to be a German officer btw, A pedophile too :laugh:

Gorštak
08-03-2013, 12:03 AM
Well they go to another planets and enslave the population.........
OMG THE SAYAJIN ARE EUROPEAN IMPERIALISTS :)

They were just a soldiers who would do all the dirty work, real and only lords were Frieza and his family;)

Vesuvian Sky
08-03-2013, 12:03 AM
Some of the 'whitest' you'll ever see are from 'Fist of the North Star':

http://i16.servimg.com/u/f16/13/86/14/03/untitl10.jpg

Its like the Japs have some sort of Aryan-Nordic Bronze age fighting fetish.:laugh:

gold_fenix
08-03-2013, 12:08 AM
My personal opion is yes, these character look white but not only northern european, from all places really where caucasoid race appears

http://static.zerochan.net/Neon.Genesis.Evangelion.full.387509.jpg
http://www.imgbase.info/images/safe-wallpapers/anime/naruto/26719_naruto.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ycmkaJUvM60/UdClIyUmQcI/AAAAAAAAABs/J2wLYZ5nXlY/s1600/bleach-fondo-1.jpg

Vesuvian Sky
08-03-2013, 12:20 AM
My favorite Euro-mediteranean example of an anime character - Lupin the III, the grandson of famous French detective Arsčne Lupin:


http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1356/79/1356796417689.jpg

Chrissi
08-12-2013, 09:52 PM
I had so many fights with asians about that. Their argument is always those characters are fictional anyway and they are supposed to have big eyes so you can see the emotion better and its copied from Disney cartoons, the hair/eye colors are just random(even if they are natural like blonde hair blue eyes). I might agree with the face shapes but Sailor Moon is just too non-mongoloid to me. Just the long legs of everyone and all natural combinations. As to game characters like in Final Fantasy some look so Caucasoid they hardly pass as Eurasian. Those asians still demand they do look fully japanese and such or like those JPop singers or whatever which on the other hand themselves also try to look whiter with their blue contacts and blonde hair.
Does that look particularly mongoloid to you?
http://japaneseliterature.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/lightning.png
http://cf.imados.fr/1/final-fantasy/photo/8307715830/2192604bf1/final-fantasy-cloud-strifes-img.png
http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/3346/putl7hrr_jpg.htm
http://favim.com/610/201107/11/Favim.com-advent-children-cloud-strife-ff7-final-fantasy-final-fantasy-vii-final-fantasy-vii-advent-children-102429.jpg
Textbook Asians right?

Here one of those androgyn jpops
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn136/hajime08/gackt01.jpg
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Gackt-Camui-gackt-336856_800_600.jpg

Grenzland
08-12-2013, 09:57 PM
You are all idiots! Just ask ButlerKing!

MissProvocateur
08-12-2013, 10:22 PM
http://japaneseliterature.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/lightning.png
http://cf.imados.fr/1/final-fantasy/photo/8307715830/2192604bf1/final-fantasy-cloud-strifes-img.png
http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/3346/putl7hrr_jpg.htm
http://favim.com/610/201107/11/Favim.com-advent-children-cloud-strife-ff7-final-fantasy-final-fantasy-vii-final-fantasy-vii-advent-children-102429.jpg
Textbook Asians right?

Here one of those androgyn jpops
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn136/hajime08/gackt01.jpg
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Gackt-Camui-gackt-336856_800_600.jpg


The majority of Final Fantasy characters have almost perfectly mongoloid features. Look at their eye shape and small chins, then imagine their hair black and eyes brown. They look almost fully Asian, at least, the majority of them. I'm not even that good at taxonomy and even I can see obvious Asian influences in them.

Also, as someone who has watched multiple anime series, I can tell you that sometimes European and Asian characters withing the same series look nearly identical. For example in Vampire Knight or Ouran High School host club.

Graham
08-13-2013, 12:48 AM
Final Fantasy Men always looked very feminine. Main character especially.

Peikko
08-13-2013, 01:08 AM
I don't get anime. it's stupid. And if someone wants to watch porn, why manga? Why not actual porn.

rashka
08-13-2013, 01:13 AM
When I was little I thought they were but with a bit of strangeness to their looks - not like the usual cartoons I was used to watching. And then when I saw the names of the characters or the show then I knew it was not really American. Those cartoons never interested me for some reason.

littlestar
08-13-2013, 01:38 AM
Final Fantasy Men always looked very feminine. Main character especially.

What the western world has led you to believe is "feminine' is seen as beautiful in japan, where hyper masculisation of male characters is seen as threatening.

The majority of Final Fantasy characters have almost perfectly mongoloid features. Look at their eye shape and small chins, then imagine their hair black and eyes brown. They look almost fully Asian, at least, the majority of them. I'm not even that good at taxonomy and even I can see obvious Asian influences in them.

Also, as someone who has watched multiple anime series, I can tell you that sometimes European and Asian characters withing the same series look nearly identical. For example in Vampire Knight or Ouran High School host club.

They're stylized blends of east and west. That's what sells in Japan. (Look up hafu culture, many japanese girls strive to look "hafu" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi2r23e7fpA) and magazines that constantly feature hafu people, like vivi).


"The Japanese see anime characters as being Japanese. It is Americans who think they are white."


The most attractive Japanese characters do reflect ideas of beauty that exist in Japan. Over time, those ideas have changed, which is reflected in each generation's popular art. However, the notion that only "white" features are valued and that all Japanese characters are based off white characters shifts the argument from line, form, style, to notions of race.
-http://kotaku.com/5882526/an-examination-of-japanese-characters-whiteness/

Smeagol
08-13-2013, 01:45 AM
Yeah they look White.

ButlerKing
08-13-2013, 01:51 AM
Apparently Japanese don't think they look white even the ones with blonde hair

According to them, this is what white people in anime general suppose to look like. Long noses and large foreheads.

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/answers/2260000/2260028_1324358266578.99res_416_300.jpg


This is what anime supposed to look like

http://media01.fun4pic.com/2010/03/30/cute_japanese_cosplay_girls_1.jpg

Chrissi
08-30-2013, 11:58 AM
@Grenzland Is he the self proclaimed expert on anime/japanese social study or what?

@Butlerking Whats your point? Just b/c some japanese fanboys themselves claim thats how westerners are supposed to look and all the other cute characters are asian doesn't make it a fact. Tbh I never even heard any actual cartoon illustrator saying that. On the other hand they themselves admitted many times they were inspired by western looks and fashion. Some animes are based on westerners as are games like Harvset Moon. My Daddy long legs is a more progressive looking cartoon for japanese standards and no they dont have freakishly long noses and small eyes but basically look normal with bit longer faces. They only draw them like that in some cartoons with a different style or to make fun of white people not b/c it's the way they see it. Fullmetal Alchemist also a good example it shows Stories with different European people based on European Industrial age and they too look like usual anime characters. Hetalia maybe has better distinction in looks but they still have typical anime style and the asian ones are drawn with dark eyes and hair, shorter only other than that not much difference in the face.

36919 Hetalia

36920 fullmetal alchemist

Atlantic Islander
08-30-2013, 02:55 PM
No, not at all. Dumb people are only used to the standard anime/manga, so they think so, but I read a lot of manga and it's just not true.

Diërker
08-30-2013, 03:09 PM
That looks retarded.

RussiaPrussia
08-30-2013, 03:12 PM
I don't get anime. it's stupid. And if someone wants to watch porn, why manga? Why not actual porn.

having porn animated has many cool features that real porn lacks. Like having huge cumshots, everything is perfect and they even animate or draw how the girls getting penetrated from the inside perspective

Elsa
08-30-2013, 03:17 PM
having porn animated has many cool features that real porn lacks. Like having huge cumshots, everything is perfect and they even animate or draw how the girls getting penetrated from the inside perspective

http://images.wikia.com/rwby/images/9/92/Wtf-did-i-just-read.jpg

Trun
08-30-2013, 03:21 PM
My favorite Euro-mediteranean example of an anime character - Lupin the III, the grandson of famous French detective Arsčne Lupin:


http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1356/79/1356796417689.jpg

Woohp won't be happy when he sees him :D He looks Iberian hence not white.


having porn animated has many cool features that real porn lacks. Like having huge cumshots, everything is perfect and they even animate or draw how the girls getting penetrated from the inside perspective

Bro you are sick.

Dandelion
08-30-2013, 03:25 PM
They look 'out of this world', but they resemble White people the most indeed. I doubt, however, Japanese do this because they see us Whites as gods. It's just their style of animating.

In some animes, however, you even have European protagonists, take Lupin III (based on a manga of the same name) for instance. He's a Frenchman and his girlfriend is Japanese. Funnily, he also looks French.

http://www.reinex-studios.net/gallery/Wallpaper/Lupin%20III/img/001.jpg

It's obvious some Japanese are fascinated with Western culture. We also have Westerners (Nipponophiles) who are fascinated by Japan. In some circumstances it's okay (nothing wrong with being interested in other cultures) and other circumstances when it gets too far it can become ridiculous (the weeaboo for instance, who often has a distorted view of Japan and seems to hate his own culture).

EDIT: Ah, someone beat me to Lupin here. Yeah see, I only like a few animes and probably those that are popular to a wider audience.

Loki
08-30-2013, 03:26 PM
That looks retarded.

Shut up Pontios.

Diërker
08-30-2013, 03:28 PM
Shut up Pontios.

Omg, I'm not Pontios..........................I'm Jusuf Juka the God

Loki
08-30-2013, 03:32 PM
Omg, I'm not Pontios..........................I'm Jusuf Juka the God

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3841/r1w.gif

Diërker
08-30-2013, 03:37 PM
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3841/r1w.gif

One Finger, Two Finger, Three Finger. Eenie Meenie Mineey Moee

Dandelion
08-30-2013, 03:55 PM
Woohp won't be happy when he sees him :D He looks Iberian hence not white.

Well, I always say that Iberians are brown and French are high-stepping yellows.