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wvwvw
08-04-2013, 12:09 PM
Etruscans (maybe) not from Anatolia

There have been a few papers on the topic of Etruscan origins that argue in favor or against the Anatolian origin hypothesis. Two main lines of evidence exist on the topic: discontinuity between Etruscans and modern Tuscans (except some isolates); (perceived) similarity between Etrsucans' mtDNA and that of modern-day Turks.

Personally, I am not convinced either way, because I don't find it likely that a sample of modern-day Turks has much to tell us about the prehistoric relatives of the Etruscans. After all, modern-day Turks are descended from a few dozen ancient Anatolian ethne plus a few extra-Anatolian influences from both west and east (and perhaps north and south) plus Central Asian Turkic influence minus Christian populations. We see evidence of genetic discontinuity in places with much simpler histories than Anatolia, so to claim that modern Turks have much of anything to tell us about Iron Age Etruscans is a not-so-believable proposition.

A similar complaint is that the specificity of the Etruscan gene pool can only be established by looking at their geographical neighbors. If Etruscans were intrusive to Italy, then, presumably, they would have retained differences from the surrounding Anatolian peoples.

A third (and perhaps more subtle) caveat is that "Etruscan" is polysemous. To the archaeologist and historian, it might mean a specific culture known from its remains and the texts of Romans and Greeks with which this culture interacted. To the linguist it might mean the language spoken by this culture when it attained literacy. To the geneticist it might mean the gene pool of individuals identified by archaeologists as "Etruscan".

These categories are not necessarily congruent. My favorite example is that of "Bulgarians" or "Croats", peoples who bear the name of a Turkic and Iranic people respectively, even though today they are geographically, culturally, and linguistically completely divorced from these antecedents. Or, the more controversial example of "Romans" themselves, whose nation spoke in historical times Latin, but whose histories preserved a memory of diverse origins, including, critically, an Anatolian genealogy for their eponymous ancestor.

So, the tale of Herodotus might be true (or false) on different levels. It might turn out that Etruscans did, in fact, form an isle of ancient west Anatolian genetics in Italy. Or, it might turn out that -as in the case of the Bulgarians- both language and genes are mostly native Italian, but the founding of the Etruscan nation can still be attributed to an extraneous influence. Or, perhaps Herodotus was 100% wrong, and Tyrrhenus never sailed to Italy.

Of course, I don't expect ancient DNA from all over Italy and all over Anatolia to materialize overnight, so studies such as this do help us constrain the space of possible solutions to the problem, i.e., a model with (i) substantial female participation in Etruscan colonization, (ii) genetic continuity in Anatolia to present-day Turks, and (iii) substantial contribution of Anatolian colonists to Etruscan gene pool may be falsified. But, assumptions (i-iii) describe only a small part of the space of models consistent with the Herodotean narrative.

Am J Phys Anthropol DOI: 10.1002/ajpa.22319

Genetic evidence does not support an etruscan origin in Anatolia

Francesca Tassi et al.

The debate on the origins of Etruscans, documented in central Italy between the eighth century BC and the first century AD, dates back to antiquity. Herodotus described them as a group of immigrants from Lydia, in Western Anatolia, whereas for Dionysius of Halicarnassus they were an indigenous population. Dionysius' view is shared by most modern archeologists, but the observation of similarities between the (modern) mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) of Turks and Tuscans was interpreted as supporting an Anatolian origin of the Etruscans. However, ancient DNA evidence shows that only some isolates, and not the bulk of the modern Tuscan population, are genetically related to the Etruscans. In this study, we tested alternative models of Etruscan origins by Approximate Bayesian Computation methods, comparing levels of genetic diversity in the mtDNAs of modern and ancient populations with those obtained by millions of computer simulations. The results show that the observed genetic similarities between modern Tuscans and Anatolians cannot be attributed to an immigration wave from the East leading to the onset of the Etruscan culture in Italy. Genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia do exist, but date back to a remote stage of prehistory, possibly but not necessarily to the spread of farmers during the Neolithic period.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com

Smeagol
08-04-2013, 12:11 PM
So they were native to Italy?

Robert22
08-04-2013, 07:20 PM
i am really curios about the etruscan, but they were there before the indo europeans no? And isnt raetic, a language spoken in switzerland and parts of Austria also related to etruscan?

Vesuvian Sky
08-04-2013, 07:30 PM
What's really facsinating about Etruscans is that genetically, they are assumed to be from the Near East but their language is not like any modern east Anatolian or Caucus language group. According to Mario Alinei, its closest to Uralic (!!!). Here's some depictions of Etruscans though from their time:


http://www.mitchellteachers.org/WorldHistory/AncientRome/Images/EtruscanMuralPic.gif

http://dismanibus156.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/etruscan_cerveteri.jpg

http://www.where-to-go-in-italy.com/Etruscans/Etruscans%205.JPG

Ultra
08-04-2013, 07:41 PM
So they are tr00 Turanids. :cool:

Sikeliot
08-04-2013, 07:42 PM
From their depictions they look like Canaanites. If their language is related to Uralic, I'd be very surprised!

Vesuvian Sky
08-04-2013, 07:54 PM
This has been posted a billion times but here's Alinei's comparison that I'll break down for more digestible comparison:




Etr. atranes
Hung. arany (gold)
[Alinei points out that this was probably a general FUg borrowing tharana, from Iranian sarańa];

Etr. avil
Hung. év (year)

Etr. calu
Hung. hal (die)

Etr. caθ/cat/caθinum/caθna
M. kot (sun);

Etr. elśsi
Hung. első (first);

Etr. fulu (smith)
Hung. fűlő (stoker of fire);

Etr. hus
Hung. hős (young);

Etr. ilacve
Hung. elégvé/eléggé (sufficient)

Etr. iθal
Hung. ital (beverage);

Etr. laukh/lux
Hung. ló (horse);

Etr. mar- (measure)
Hung. mér-(measure);

Etr. nac/nacna
Hung. nagy (big)

Etr. parliu (to cook)
Hung. párol (to boil/steam)

Etr. rasna (territory, region, country)
Old Hung. resz (region, territory) [from FUg räc3(piece, part)];

Etr. tes/tez
Hung. tesz (do);

Etr. uru (Sir, lord)
Hung. úr (landowner, lord)

Etr.zilacal (stars)
Hung. csillag (star).


Weird...

Ultra
08-04-2013, 08:01 PM
They are Turanic/Uralic/Mongolic no question. :)

Vesuvian Sky
08-04-2013, 08:08 PM
They are Turanic/Uralic/Mongolic no question. :)

Naturally, this thread invokes numerous older threads on the topic at hand. Of particular interest and not to mention an Apricity classic was Legion's "Civilization - a Turanic Invention":

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?68059-Civilization-A-Turanic-invention&highlight=civilization+turanic

For more on the long drawn out debate on 'just who the f@?k were the Etruscans and where did they come from' here are a plethora of classic threads dedicated to the topic

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?67305-Debate-on-Magyar-Turkic-Trojan-Etruscan-connections&highlight=etruscan

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?69688-Etruscan-quot-Neolithic-Invader-Language-quot-or-IE&highlight=etruscan

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?60289-Etrurian-Etruscans&highlight=etruscans

;)

Sikeliot
08-04-2013, 08:09 PM
Could Etruscans have been predominantly of Neolithic origin with a recent wave of Anatolian migration superimposed on it?

Vesuvian Sky
08-04-2013, 08:15 PM
Could Etruscans have been predominantly of Neolithic origin with a recent wave of Anatolian migration superimposed on it?

In all do honesty, what's probably going on with Etruscans is that they were genetically E. Anatolian/Caucus, probably resulting partly from waves of Neolithic migrations from said region, but their language was a peculiar type of creole it seems. The fact that counting 1-10 in Etruscan is rather linguistically mixed and not uniform seems to affirm this to a degree:


1 thu
2 zal (or esal)
3 ci
4 śa
5 mach
6 huth
7 septh
8 cezp
9 nurph
10 śar


'7' in Etruscan '1-10' is clearly IE derived but the rest appear from disparate or dare I even say unknown sources (!!!).

Sikeliot
08-04-2013, 08:17 PM
I wonder if the Etruscans were related to the Elymians of Sicily at all, because the Elymians probably also were East Anatolian/Caucasus.

Vesuvian Sky
08-04-2013, 08:20 PM
I wonder if the Etruscans were related to the Elymians of Sicily at all, because the Elymians probably also were East Anatolian/Caucasus.

Good point. Unfortunately Elymian has never been deciphered it seems.:(

Anthropologique
08-04-2013, 08:27 PM
I wonder if the Etruscans were related to the Elymians of Sicily at all, because the Elymians probably also were East Anatolian/Caucasus.

Given all we know, quite possible.

Sikeliot
08-04-2013, 08:28 PM
Good point. Unfortunately Elymian has never been deciphered it seems.:(

Do Etruscans have a lot of y-dna G? Western Sicily (where Elymians were) has a high amount of it, and I think it likely is Elymian/Caucasus/etc. in origin.

Vesuvian Sky
08-04-2013, 08:34 PM
Do Etruscans have a lot of y-dna G? Western Sicily (where Elymians were) has a high amount of it, and I think it likely is Elymian/Caucasus/etc. in origin.

Well modern day Tuscan males living in close proximity to locations of ancient Etruscans towns do:


Origin of the Etruscans: novel clues from the Y chromosome lineages
A. Piazza1 et al.

Key exert:


The samples from Tuscany show eastern haplogroups E3b1-M78, G2*-P15, J2a1b*-M67 and K2-M70 with frequencies very similar to those observed in Turkey and surrounding areas, but significantly different from those of neighbouring Italian regions. The microsatellite haplotypes associated to these haplogroups allow inference of ancestor lineages for Etruria and Near East whose time to the most recent common ancestors is relatively recent (about 3,500 years BP) and supports a possible non autochthonous post-Neolithic signal associated with the Etruscans.

Ianus
08-04-2013, 08:35 PM
What's really facsinating about Etruscans is that genetically, they are assumed to be from the Near East but their language is not like any modern east Anatolian or Caucus language group. According to Mario Alinei, its closest to Uralic (!!!).

The most related Language to Etruscan is the Lemnian Language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language

Vesuvian Sky
08-04-2013, 08:40 PM
The most related Language to Etruscan is the Lemnian Language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language



...both Etruscan and Lemnian share two unique dative cases, type-I *-si and type-II *-ale, shown both on the Lemnos Stele (Hulaie-ši "for Hulaie", Φukiasi-ale "for the Phocaean") and in inscriptions written in Etruscan (aule-si - "To Aule" - on the Cippus Perusinus as well as the inscription mi mulu Laris-ale Velχaina-si, meaning "I was blessed for Laris Velchaina").
They also share the genitive in *-s and a simple past tense in *-a-i (Etruscan <-e> as in ame "was" (< *amai); Lemnian <-ai> as in šivai, meaning "lived")

Insuperable
08-05-2013, 01:36 AM
My favorite example is that of "Bulgarians" or "Croats", peoples who bear the name of a Turkic and Iranic people respectively, even though today they are geographically, culturally, and linguistically completely divorced from these antecedents.

He really knows to write crap sometimes

Kiyant
08-05-2013, 01:40 AM
Turanic power even in ancient times but i dont see a problem why the etruscans shouldnt be uralic it wasnt that far from the other uralics.

wvwvw
08-05-2013, 02:13 AM
He really knows to write crap sometimes

Embrace your iranian roots Solin :cool:

Scholarios
08-05-2013, 02:14 AM
This largely based on trying to compare Modern Turks to Modern Tuscans?

I don't know about these conclusions...

Insuperable
08-05-2013, 02:22 AM
Embrace your iranian roots Solin :cool:

I would but:

1. The origin of the name Hrvat (Croat) is still not confirmed nor can anyone agree on its origin

2. This
Hrbat--->Hrvat
is more likely than this
Huravat - Sarasvat - Aruvat - Harahvaiti - Harvat - Aurvat - Harauvatiš- Harauvatija - Harauvatim - Harauvat - Harahvat - Horohvat - Arivates - Horvathos - Hrovatoi - Crvat - Harvat - Horvat - Hrvat

But yet again, who knows. I just don't like when someone writes (like Dienekes in this case) as that someone knows for sure.

Constantine13
08-05-2013, 06:01 AM
This has been posted a billion times but here's Alinei's comparison that I'll break down for more digestible comparison:






Weird...


Isn't Sumerian Uralic-related too? With links to the Caucasus/Anatolia as well?

Vesuvian Sky
08-05-2013, 10:28 AM
Isn't Sumerian Uralic-related too? With links to the Caucasus/Anatolia as well?

it just has an ambiguous status like etruscan. so naturally a billion different categorizations have been made. at best, all we can say is that there's something 'Asiatic' about these languages. and that's it.