Is Austria more Slavic than Serbia genetically?

[Loki]

It's possible.

http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/aa-haplogroup-r1a.gif

[Pontios]

What... :confused: Of course not...

[Guapo]

Is Serbia more nordid than Austria? According to anthropologist Petr Boev it is.

[Ultra]

Wouldn't surprise me.. They for sure overlap more with Russians and other West- & East-Slavs by looks than Serbs in my opinion. :p

[rashka]

Could be.

In Austria, Serbian singer Nina is being interviewed by an Austrian. He looks very Slav while she looks very Germanic. :p


http://youtu.be/Qu9xScyNP0Y

[Loki]

Is Serbia more nordid than Austria? According to anthropologist Petr Boev it is.

Could be.

[ChocolateFace]

Austria is not more Slavic then Serbia.

[Guapo]

Could be.

I'm sure you've seen his work before, Serbia is even more nordid but not as dinarid as Tyrol

[Peikko]

Yes of course.

[Coldy Valdir]

Only based on that map is difficult defining it. It could be, are any studies made? I guess Austrians would never accept this, i know them very well and they don't like to associate themselves with slavs.

[Guapo]

Could be.

In Austria, Serbian singer Nina is being interviewed by an Austrian. He looks very Slav while she looks very Germanic. :p



Serbian lady does look more Germanic than Austrian male, he looks albo-turkish or smthing

[Krampus]

I dont know man... it said Greeks are more Slvic than Albanians on this map...

[Smeagol]

Is Serbia more nordid than Austria? According to anthropologist Petr Boev it is.

If this is true, than Serbia is more Slavic.

[Fire Haired]

proto Indo European langauges began around Russia, ukrine, and the north mid east 6,000-8,000ybp the R1a1a1 comes from Russi nd Ukriane the R1b L23 from the north mid east. North yamna culture about 5,500ybp formed into proto indo iranian balto slavic speakers and r1a1a1b. then yamna migrted and coqnuered most of east europe from 5,000-4,500ybp forming into proto balto slavic langauges and r1a1a1b1. There was some info from dna recovered from yamna culture all they sid is they had all caucasin mtdna, pale skin genes like mod euroeans, mainly brown eyes like people in that area today, and same phnotype as modern europeans. There has been a ton of y dna, mt dna, hair color, skin color, and eye color results frm very early indo irnians in central asia who also decend from northern ymana culture like balto slavs which is why indo irnians have r1a1a1b2 brother to balto slavc r1a1a1b1.

the earlliest indo iranian dna is from tarium mummies in west china who were a mix of european from yamna origin and east asian. the one's i am talking about are 4,000 years old they had y dna r1a1a possibly deeper subclades and mainly mongliod mtdna c4. we also have dna from very erly indo irnians just north of he tarium mummies these samples come from adronovo culture in south siberi. from 9 mtdna samples they had all caucasin groups except one z1 which is mongliod. from three y dna samples who had r1a1a possibly deeper suubclades and one had mongliod C. they also had pale skin like modern europeans and they had mainly blonde- ligh brown hair and blue and green eyes.

we have tons of indo iranian dna in centrl asia some as recent as 400ad and some from sycthians. all remains showed basically the same mtdna haplogroups, all had y dna r1a1a, and they all had mainly blonde - light brown hair and blue and green eyes. they were also shown to be very unrelated to brown eyed probably brown haired yamna people. oh yeah i forgot to mention two indo iranian mummies in west china dating 3,400 and 3,000 years old had red hair. what this shows is early yamna people and early indo europeans were not one unfied ethnic group they were from many diff ethnic groups who had lived around russia, ukriane, and north mid east for thousends of years.

slavic people are a mix of invading r1a1a1b1 corded ware people and native neloithic i2a1b, g2a, and n1c east europeans. it is hard to say how much ancestry slavs have from either group. slavs and baltic's do have really high amounts of blonde hair and light eyes like indo iranians did but that could be from the natives and corded ware invaders. slavic i guess is a genetic ethnic group but it is mainly just a language and orignally a culture. from what i know slavs did not migrate to modern yugoslavia until the middle ages just over 1,000ybp. Balto slavic r1a1a1b1 is less than 10% in yugoslavia while it is around 50% in russians, polish, and ukrians so i doubt they have that much slavic blood. also the hair color and eye color of yugoslavians differs alot from slavs in russia, poland, and ukriane and their aust dna is diff. also corded ware culture extended to most of germany so east germany do have alot of r1a1a1b1 and austrians do to. u should look at eupedi's undated maps with politcal borders i think austrians probably have very little corded ware/slavic blood but probably as much or more as yugoslavians.

[Trun]

R1a isn't a defintion of "Slavic".

[Corvus]

Genetically perhaps, even though I doubt this too (I am still not an expert on genetics)
Culturally definitly not. Austria is Germanic with Slavic influences. And there is a West/East division.
You will hardly find any Slavic traces in Western Austria like Salzburg, Tyrol or Vorarlberg

But people like the guy in the interview you find in abundance here. In my eyes the general look tends to be more Slavic than Germanic here.
Also Slavic surnames are very prevalent

[Fire Haired]

i dont get why u guys keep saying nordid and dinard. we dnt know if those things exist go of dna not looks which can be comlicated. when u say nordic what do u mean. by dna germans are very diff from scandnavians sure they both speak germanic languages but that is just about all besides that their ancestry is very diff. what do u mean by dinard people in that area have a very complicated ancestry they are not really a distinct race or whatever.

[Corvus]

Is Serbia more nordid than Austria? According to anthropologist Petr Boev it is.

This is nonsense. Definitly not. The Pontid phenotype which is very common in Serbia is extremly rare in Austria.
Not surprisingly as it is much more a Northern country geographically

[Smeagol]

This is nonsense. Definitly not. The Pontid phenotype which is very common in Serbia is extremly rare in Austria.
Not surprisingly as it is much more a Northern country geographically

I didn't think it was true.

[armenianbodyhair]

Lol

[Fire Haired]

cultrally almost all cultures that existed in europe 2,500ybp are extinct. u dont see anyone in germany being sacrficed to thor anymore or western europeans all wearing plaid tarten clothing. U dont see french and austrians decorting their towns with their enemies heads you dont see tribal chiefdom socites in europe period anymore. all the old cultures in europe including orignal slavic culture have just about gone exinct because of influnce from the roman and meditreaen world also most europeans converted to christianty. so when u say they have germanic culture u must mean recent culture german people have started. southern germans have way more gaulic r1b s28 than they have germanic r1b s21 even though in modern terms they have germanic culture but their ancient ancestors were celts.

modern politacal and cutra borders do not mark genetic's. ancient and pre historic borders do. like i said many southern and western germans really are mainly celtic in ancestry just they were adopted into a germanic country.

[Corvus]

Translated from here http://sciencev1.orf.at/science/news/47289

Search for traces of Slavic roots

What are the names Feistritz Palt Sierning Waehring and Zwettl common? They all go back to Slavic words and were then transferred into the German language. The search for traces of these Slavic roots describes Angela Mayer Berger of the Balkan Commission of the Austrian Academy of Sciences in the series "Young Science".

Slavic roots geographical names in Austria


A Slavic settlement in part of present-day Austria in the Middle Ages has left not only archeology, but also linguistic traces.

The Slav, approximately in the east of Austria to the line of Linz - was spoken as the western border of Lienz died down to a final rest in the south of Carinthia in the Middle Ages (the Burgenland Croats are later immigrated from Croatia).

Indirect and more or less hidden to us that language but still accessible, notably through of documented and still used Germanized local, waters, mountains, and people's names.

Therefore, it applies primarily to the linguistic origin and evolution of our geographical names "uncover" and to draw conclusions about the medieval Slavic.
...

...

Which "Slav" was then spoken in Austria?


The oldest Slavic, which was spoken around 600 AD after the great expansion of the Slavs, was the ancient Slavic and Proto-Slavic is this different from conventional to reconstruct (see HOLZER, 1995 under the Bibliography), so it was all Slavs - in Austria and outside of Austria - the same Slavic language, which later developed the individual Slavic languages.

The derived therefrom medieval Slavic dialects in Austria presented represent transitional dialects between their neighboring Slavic dialects, there can be no sharp boundary between South Slavonic (Slovenian) and Nordslawisch (Czech) pull (see HOLZER 1996).

For more information about this I can refer to this study:
http://wwwg.uni-klu.ac.at/spw/oenf/FS_Oresnik.pdf

[Fire Haired]

R1a isn't a defintion of "Slavic".

it is specfically r1a1a1b1 well it is the signature of balto slavic speakers.

[Fire Haired]

corvus not suprised plus austria was not germanic till the iron age before that they were technically celts and before that italo celts. they have always been at the border of the slavic and germanic italo celtic world there defintley has been inter marriage with the two grous in the last 5,000 years. austrians though have some of the highest germanic r1b s21 in the world so they do have alot of germanic blood but there is no doubt they also have some slavic.

[Corvus]

corvus not suprised plus austria was not germanic till the iron age before that they were technically celts and before that italo celts. they have always been at the border of the slavic and germanic italo celtic world there defintley has been inter marriage with the two grous in the last 5,000 years. austrians though have some of the highest germanic r1b s21 in the world so they do have alot of germanic blood but there is no doubt they also have some slavic.

Indeed and we should bear in mind that despite all the Slavic looking people, there are plenty of individuals who look Germanic through and through and could easily pass in North Germany as well as in Scandinavia.
They are just not so much highlighted on this site.

[Twistedmind]

Well, Loki, by same crtiera you are Greeko-Albanian :D

[Loki]

If this is true, than Serbia is more Slavic.

Not necessarily.

[Loki]

Well, Loki, by same crtiera you are Greeko-Albanian :D

... and proud of it :cool:

[Twistedmind]

... and proud of it :cool:

:cool:

Anyway, we would need studies which would compare both Serbs and Austrians with leve of NorthEastern European admixture I think.

[Artek]

it is specfically r1a1a1b1 well it is the signature of balto slavic speakers.
It's a signature but we must remember that Slavs also carried some I2, I1, E1b, R1b etc.And not all of R1a branches in Austria are slavic as well ( L664's, Z93's and some Z280's are not)

And there is also something like autosomal genetics but I don't remember if Austrians are closer to the Poles than Serbs.

[Sikeliot]

I dont know man... it said Greeks are more Slvic than Albanians on this map...

That is likely true actually and shouldn't surprise you.

[Smeagol]

Not necessarily.

Yes, because they would be closer to the original Slavic type. I don't believe it though. Austria definitely has more Nordids.

[Pleurat]

Loooool at Serbia being more nordid than Austria It made my day, I will never forget this.... but answering the question no austria is not more slavic, of course not.

[Pleurat]

Yes, because they would be closer to the original Slavic type.

No ones knows the so called original slavic type, these are myths, nordish types are from north and central europe, part of the germanic races. Byzantines described the ancient slavs as short people with light brown to redish hair and small heads. Austrians are much lighter than serbs and they are the synonym of central european looking people.

[Pleurat]

That is likely true actually and shouldn't surprise you.

Well that proves What I said, less than 5% slavic genes among north albanians.

[Artek]

So, we have Slavic genes and non-Slavic genes in Austrians and Serbians. But aren't non-Slavic genes of Austrians closer to the Slavic genes than paleo-Blakanite genes?
They are closer, IMHO. You can be right. Especially if we consider the West Slavs as an epitome of slavicness(Russians have too much ugro-finnic influences)

[Corvus]

Here is sth. intresting about Tyrolean DNA. Bear in mind that Tyrol is very Western Austria
and does not represent the whole nation:

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

[Roy]

Maybe yes, Maybe not. I am not going to judge it. But Balkans were free from ice during the last Glacial period ...

[Pleurat]

Here is sth. intresting about Tyrolean DNA. Bear in mind that Tyrol is very Western Austria
and does not represent the whole nation:

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure


Tyroelans are the lightest people in Italy aren't they?

[Corvus]

Tyroelans are the lightest people in Italy aren't they?

Yes it is fair to claim that and the darkest in Austria

[Mans not hot]

Austrians are genetically and phenotypically closer to Czechs who are West Slavs, so it makes Austrians more ''Slavic'' in comparison to Serbs, but when its come to cultures, Austrians are less Slavic.

They are closer, IMHO. You can be right. Especially if we consider the West Slavs as an epitome of slavicness(Russians have too much ugro-finnic influences)
Depend.

[Smeagol]

No ones knows the so called original slavic type, these are myths, nordish types are from north and central europe, part of the germanic races. Byzantines described the ancient slavs as short people with light brown to redish hair and small heads. Austrians are much lighter than serbs and they are the synonym of central european looking people.

Nordish races are in Eastern Europe, as well as Central, and northern Europe. All the original Indo-Europeans were Nordids, not just Germanics. As for the original Slavic type, it was Nordid, and Nordid/Baltid. Nearly all the medieval sources describe them, as blonde, and light skinned, only one contradicts this. The skeletal evidence agrees. The Slavs were mainly the descendants of Indo-Europeans, and indigenous Northeast Europeans. (Baltids, Neo-Danubians, etc)

[Pleurat]

Nordish races are in Eastern Europe, as well as Central, and northern Europe. All the original Indo-Europeans were Norids, not just Germanics. As for the original Slavic type, it was Nordid, and Nordid/Baltid. Nearly all the medieval sources describe them, as blonde, and light skinned, only one contradicts this. The Slavs were mainly the descendants of Indo-Europeans, and indigenous Northeast Europeans. (Baltids, Neo-Danubians, etc)


Baltid component is heavily associated with slavs today, rusians and poles and baltids are very blond people. Tey might have had nordid admixture too of course.

[Artek]

No ones knows the so called original slavic type, these are myths, nordish types are from north and central europe, part of the germanic races.
You don't have a knowledge in this matter. Early medieval(therefore original) slavs were rather meso-dolichocephal
and rather light or light/mixed which puts them in the Nordoid spectrum. Bones doesn't lie.
Of course some of them were darker or lighter than the average.

Stop spreading lies.

Brachycephal (therefore Baltid, Alpinoid and Dinaroid elements became more frequent since the Medieval times but it has stopped some time ago after the changes in climate, lifestyle and nutrition. Being borealised or alpinised is not an advantage anymore as it was in the periods of hunger.

[safinator]

Obviously not, nor R1a is a marker associated only to Slavs.

[Pleurat]

You don't have a knowledge in this matter. Early medieval(therefore original) slavs were rather meso-dolichocephal
and rather light or light/mixed which puts them in the Nordoid spectrum. Bones doesn't lie.
Of course some of them were darker or lighter than the average.

Stop spreading lies.


That means nothing..... poles for example have never been brachocephalic people, only pure baltids are bracho. If it is so, than you poles, who are considered the centre of slavic people, why aren't you predominantly nordids. Evan baltid countries are not very brachocephalic.

About lightening it is meaningless because baltids are very light people too.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Ripley_map_of_cephalic_index_in_Europe.png/579px-Ripley_map_of_cephalic_index_in_Europe.png

[Loki]

Austrians are genetically and phenotypically closer to Czechs who are West Slavs, so it makes Austrians more ''Slavic'' in comparison to Serbs, but when its come to cultures, Austrians are less Slavic.


Good point.

[Loki]

It's a signature but we must remember that Slavs also carried some I2, I1, E1b, R1b etc.And not all of R1a branches in Austria are slavic as well ( L664's, Z93's and some Z280's are not)


If modern Slavic speakers carry those markers, it doesn't mean that the original Slavs did. You must take into account that Slavs have quite a bit of Germanic blood as well, especially Poles.

[Corvus]

According to this map Austria is more Proto Celtic than Slavic:

http://indo-european-migrations.scienceontheweb.net/map_of_indo_european_migration.jpg

[Smeagol]

who are considered the centre of slavic people, why aren't you predominantly nordids.

Mixing with Indigenous Northeast Europeans.

[Lemon Kush]

No

[Mans not hot]

Baltid component is heavily associated with slavs today, rusians and poles and baltids are very blond people. Tey might have had nordid admixture too of course.
Lawls, Poles are far away from blonde and Baltid. Not sure about Russians, since I haven't got an experience with them, but Im sure on average they're more Baltids than us. Btw, Baltids are more common among certain non-Slavs than even North Slavs.

[Twistedmind]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SgPtrXOvDUI/AAAAAAAABbo/mDAK-MpRf9k/s1600/journal.pone.0005472.s007.jpg

Austrians cluster with Hungarians, Czechs, Swiss, Southern Germans, Bulgarians, French...
Poles cluster with Russians, Hungarians, Czechs...

No Balkanites here, however.

Bulgarians:P

BTW, Balkanites is pointless concept genneticaly, Serbs are closer to Hungarians and Austrians than to Albanians and Greeks.

[Pleurat]

Bulgarians:P

BTW, Balkanites is pointless concept genneticaly, Serbs are closer to Hungarians and Austrians than to Albanians and Greeks.

Maybe to hungarians, but not to Austrians genetically. You have a lot in common with greeks also, more than you think concerning R1a and I2a2.

[Corvus]

Let some pictures do the talking:

Compare Austrian and Serbian basketballer:

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4137/4932374832_d1ebbb1b3e_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4932373826_6c2e43d22c_o.jpg

http://jerseychaser.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/uclabogpixdragovic_nikola71807.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/i/ng/sp/reuters/20100823/13/1604893471-23082010132228.jpg



Austrians:

http://relevant.at/system/galleries/upload/6/6/2/615346/news_15485.jpg

http://pictorial.reps.at/imageservlet/26733/2/image.jpg

http://www.basketballaustria.at/pictures/file_1344106005-794dcac73761667d4c4791525e615956.jpg

http://a404.idata.over-blog.com/216x300/3/68/55/89/Schweden-Spiel-2-/Team-Fotos/Team-Fotos-7270.jpg

http://a133.idata.over-blog.com/630x470-000000/3/68/55/89/Schweden-Spiel-2-/Team-Fotos/Team-Fotos-7240.jpg

http://www.basketball.pictorial.at/imageservlet/15346/2/image.jpg

Ethnic Serb playing for Austria

http://pictorial.reps.at/imageservlet/26678/2/image.jpg

[Pleurat]

Corvus, are you sure the last one is a pure austrian?

[Corvus]

Corvus, are you sure the last one is a pure austrian?

I have to recheck the name, just took the picture from Google Pics
Could be a Serb you are right

And he is indeed so a good example how easy often Austrians can be distinguished from Serbs

[Temujin]

MDLP-22 (old calculator)

Genome-wide comparison to NE Slavic populations.


Ukrainians (Centre) to Austrians - 19.26
Ukrainians (Centre) to Serbs - 24.49

Poles to Austrians - 24.99
Poles to Serbs - 31.23

Russians to Austrians - 30.10
Russians to Serbs - 36.02

Belarusians to Austrians - 33.20
Belarusians to Serbs - 38.79


Genetically close population to Austrians


"Austrian" "0"
"German_V" "2.0761"
"CEU_V" "3.5496"
"Hungarian" "3.8601"
"Slovenian" "5.0537"
"Croatian" "5.8498"
"German-North" "6.1384"
"Welsh" "6.5552"
"German" "6.8978"
"Bosnian" "7.2"
"CEU" "8.2849"
"Swedish" "8.3469"
"Czech" "8.9247"
"Serbian" "8.9353"
"British" "8.9627"
"German-South" "9.8377"
"Norwegian_V" "9.8641"
"Orcadian" "10.0712"
"Croatian_V" "10.1247"
"Slovakian" "11.1126"


Genetically close populations to Serbs



"Serbian" "0"
"Montenegrin" "4.0768"
"Macedonian" "4.6119"
"Bosnian" "6.7483"
"Bulgarian" "7.6138"
"Croatian" "8.51"
"German-South" "8.6499"
"Hungarian" "8.8555"
"Austrian" "8.9353"
"German_V" "9.2504"
"Romania" "10.6808"
"Gagauz" "11.0177"
"CEU_V" "11.5083"
"Slovenian" "11.6499"
"Swiss" "12.119"
"CEU" "12.8047"
"German" "13.2288"
"British" "13.2669"
"Welsh" "13.351"
"Italian_North" "13.9921"



If Austrians are closer to Slavs, then it'd be southern Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, Serbs) followed by western Slavs living in central Europe (Czechs and Slovaks) and only then northern Slavs.

Obviously, the results are only as accurate as data itself. Other samples may yield different results

[Artek]

If modern Slavic speakers carry those markers, it doesn't mean that the original Slavs did. You must take into account that Slavs have quite a bit of Germanic blood as well, especially Poles.
I took it into account. That's why I'm saying only about some branches of I1,some branches of R1b etc.etc.
EV-13 and G2a are multi-ethnical and found everywhere.
Slavs weren't 100% R1a.

[Pleurat]

I took it into account. That's why I'm saying only about some branches of I1,some branches of R1b etc.etc.
EV-13 and G2a are multi-ethnical and found everywhere.
Slavs weren't 100% R1a.

Wrong about EV-13, it is found almost only in Balkan and some other european countries in low percentages and it is almost inexistent outside Europe. I1 is found from Skandinavia to Macedonia.


Now it depends about what R1a are you talking about. R1a1 is totally slavic while some other branches can be considered pre-slavic.

[Hevo]

Now it depends about what R1a are you talking about. R1a1 is totally slavic while some other branches can be considered pre-slavic.

Oh.

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/Lukasz/R1a-clades_zpsddacae9d.jpg

[Loki]

MDLP-22 (old calculator)

Genome-wide comparison to NE Slavic populations.


Ukrainians (Centre) to Austrians - 19.26
Ukrainians (Centre) to Serbs - 24.49

Poles to Austrians - 24.99
Poles to Serbs - 31.23

Russians to Austrians - 30.10
Russians to Serbs - 36.02

Belarusians to Austrians - 33.20
Belarusians to Serbs - 38.79


Genetically close population to Austrians


"Austrian" "0"
"German_V" "2.0761"
"CEU_V" "3.5496"
"Hungarian" "3.8601"
"Slovenian" "5.0537"
"Croatian" "5.8498"
"German-North" "6.1384"
"Welsh" "6.5552"
"German" "6.8978"
"Bosnian" "7.2"
"CEU" "8.2849"
"Swedish" "8.3469"
"Czech" "8.9247"
"Serbian" "8.9353"
"British" "8.9627"
"German-South" "9.8377"
"Norwegian_V" "9.8641"
"Orcadian" "10.0712"
"Croatian_V" "10.1247"
"Slovakian" "11.1126"


Genetically close populations to Serbs



"Serbian" "0"
"Montenegrin" "4.0768"
"Macedonian" "4.6119"
"Bosnian" "6.7483"
"Bulgarian" "7.6138"
"Croatian" "8.51"
"German-South" "8.6499"
"Hungarian" "8.8555"
"Austrian" "8.9353"
"German_V" "9.2504"
"Romania" "10.6808"
"Gagauz" "11.0177"
"CEU_V" "11.5083"
"Slovenian" "11.6499"
"Swiss" "12.119"
"CEU" "12.8047"
"German" "13.2288"
"British" "13.2669"
"Welsh" "13.351"
"Italian_North" "13.9921"



If Austrians are closer to Slavs, then it'd be southern Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, Serbs) followed by western Slavs living in central Europe (Czechs and Slovaks) and only then northern Slavs.

Obviously, the results are only as accurate as data itself. Other samples may yield different results

^^ These results prove that Serbs are (like Bosnians) primarily pre-Slavic Balkanic, with Slavic admixture.

It is no surprise that Serbs don't cluster closely with Poles.

This is quite telling:



Poles to Austrians - 24.99
Poles to Serbs - 31.23

[Corvus]

^^ These results prove that Serbs are (like Bosnians) primarily pre-Slavic Balkanic, with Slavic admixture.

It is no surprise that Serbs don't cluster closely with Poles.

This is quite telling:

According to this study Austrians are indeed more Slavic than Serbs, but it should be treated with caution as I know for sure
that Austrians are closer to Czech/Slovaks and South Germans than the scores indicate

[Duke]

no wonder Austrians were most dominant germanic power

[Loki]

no wonder Austrians were most dominant germanic power

lulz I must have skipped some history classes. I thought it were the Franks :laugh:

[Duke]

lulz I must have skipped some history classes. I thought it were the Franks :laugh:

Franks were like short fart, their failing was they never took Croats as allies, habsburgs tho because of Croat allies mainly :D, dominated most of the modern history, from iberia to skandinavia

[Artek]

Wrong about EV-13, it is found almost only in Balkan and some other european countries in low percentages and it is almost inexistent outside Europe. I1 is found from Skandinavia to Macedonia.

I thought it was quite easy to understand that I was talking about the Europe.

It's found in such frequency in Balkans because of a founder effects, various population changes and long age of residing there.
But EV-13 is also relatively old to the rest regions of Europe, therefore found almost in every nation. So I conclude, that almost every tribe had EV-13. This haplogroup was also found in Slavic grave in Usedom island (along with R1a-M458), in 5000 BCE Iberia etc.




Now it depends about what R1a are you talking about. R1a1 is totally slavic while some other branches can be considered pre-slavic.
You've shown a deep knowledge about this subjects, I'm impressed.

[Duke]

^^ These results prove that Serbs are (like Bosnians) primarily pre-Slavic Balkanic, with Slavic admixture.

It is no surprise that Serbs don't cluster closely with Poles.

This is quite telling:


it also shows monteniggers are not serbified albos, more likley is that north western albos, are in fact šiptarfied monteniggers

[Pleurat]

it also shows monteniggers are not serbified albos, more likley is that north western albos, are in fact šiptarfied monteniggers

Can you give us a reason for that?

[Pleurat]

no wonder Austrians were most dominant germanic power

No anglo-saxons with no slavic blood ruled 1/4 of the earth.

[Temujin]

^^ These results prove that Serbs are (like Bosnians) primarily pre-Slavic Balkanic, with Slavic admixture.

The results don't prove anything. They're only an indication for further research. Serbs are not pre-Slavic Balkanic; they are primarily Slavic with some non-Slavic admixture as all other Slavs in the Balkans and other parts of Europe.


It is no surprise that Serbs don't cluster closely with Poles.

This is quite telling:

Serbs and Poles knew it all along. it doesn't stop the two groups of people discussing their cultural commonalities.

[Duke]

Can you give us a reason for that?

well, they are taller, and lighter then the rest of Albos(this is what albos themselves say), also look more similar to monteniggers, then other, or majority of albos

[Loki]

it also shows monteniggers are not serbified albos, more likley is that north western albos, are in fact šiptarfied monteniggers

They could be Slavicized Illyrians (most likely, along with Bosnians), whilst modern Albanians are something else. There are theories about them being Daco-Thracian primarily.

[Duke]

They could be Slavicized Illyrians (most likely, along with Bosnians), whilst modern Albanians are something else. There are theories about them being Daco-Thracian primarily.

Bosniaks are genetically closest to Croats, however, there are 3 different people in BiH, and you could spot the difference between bosnians just by looking.

Slavic is true IE language, and Slavic is a linguistic category, and first settlers in west Balkans were IE speakers

[Loki]

Serbs are not pre-Slavic Balkanic; they are primarily Slavic with some non-Slavic admixture as all other Slavs in the Balkans and other parts of Europe.


Evidence?



Serbs and Poles knew it all along. it doesn't stop the two groups of people discussing their cultural commonalities.

For sure. I never disputed the cultural commonalities.

[gregorius]

i dont get why u guys keep saying nordid and dinard. we dnt know if those things exist go of dna not looks which can be comlicated. when u say nordic what do u mean. by dna germans are very diff from scandnavians sure they both speak germanic languages but that is just about all besides that their ancestry is very diff. what do u mean by dinard people in that area have a very complicated ancestry they are not really a distinct race or whatever.

fak youre smart

[Loki]

Bosniaks are genetically closest to Croats, however, there are 3 different people in BiH, and you could spot the difference between bosnians just by looking.


Interesting. Could you briefly describe these three?



Slavic is true IE language, and Slavic is a linguistic category, and first settlers in west Balkans were IE speakers

Of course. But those first settlers in west Balkans were not Slavs. You know that the Illyrians and Greeks were also IE.

[Insuperable]

@Duke

nemoj molim te stvarati shitstorme

[Minesweeper]

For us who don't know much about genetics, haplogroups and everything else that comes with it.. what's the conclusion so far?

[Pleurat]

well, they are taller, and lighter then the rest of Albos(this is what albos themselves say), also look more similar to monteniggers, then other, or majority of albos

Northern albanians ( together with kosovars) and the albanians of montenegro are the nucleus of the albanian nation. Southern albanians are shorter because of the alpine admixture and the ones who are darker are the ones in southwest albania because of vlachs ( albanophones). Southwestern toss are in 80% similar with northerners.


In your words we can concur that the montenigrins of the coast are serbicised sicilians because they are very dark and the croats of Dalmatia and Hercegovina are croatised italians.


In your words we can conclude that the southeastern serbs are serbicised vlachs and southwestern serbs are serbicised balakners and the true serbs are the ones from Vojvodina ( since they are more slavic looking according to Sorab. in fact the serbs of Vojvodina are a mixture of everything of germans, hungarians, poles, romanians, vlachs, austrians,serbs etc.).

[Temujin]

Evidence?

Evidence for Serbs are being primarily Slavs? There is a lengthy thread on 23andme in which Polako and Verenich participated. They gathered some sources providing evidence for Slavic migrations to the Balkans. There was also a plague wiping out local population in the Balkans just before Slavic migrations took place.

[Duke]

Interesting. Could you briefly describe these three?



Of course. But those first settlers in west Balkans were not Slavs. You know that the Illyrians and Greeks were also IE.


Slavic as name for language is made in much later date, much later then germanic, which was Roman invention

No i cant describe difference, but its similar to how english recognize irish, you just know it

[Loki]

Evidence for Serbs are being primarily Slavs? There is a lengthy thread on 23andme in which Polako and Verenich participated. They gathered some sources providing evidence for Slavic migrations to the Balkans. There was also a plague wiping out local population in the Balkans just before Slavic migrations took place.

That's bullshit. I'm sorry but Polako is biased regarding this. He also argues that haplogroup I2 is not native in the Balkans, and that it came with the Slavs. This is incorrect and based on too many wild assumptions.

[Loki]

For us who don't know much about genetics, haplogroups and everything else that comes with it.. what's the conclusion so far?

Depends who you ask! :laugh:

[Insuperable]

@Duke

Kada god dođeš na forum uvijek stvaraš neke prepirke. Želim se opustiti na ovome forumu, ali kada tada će netko nešto reći što će i mene i tebe uzrujati, a koji kurac mi to treba

[Duke]

@Duke

Kada god dođeš na forum uvijek stvaraš neke prepirke. Želim se opustiti na ovome forumu, ali kada tada će netko nešto reći što će i mene i tebe uzrujati, a koji kurac mi to treba

pa ti cilo vrime pišeš stvari koje mene uzrujavaju, jebiga nauči se trpit

[Insuperable]

pa ti cilo vrime pišeš stvari koje mene uzrujavaju, jebiga nauči se trpit

Kao npr? Dosta vremena ja trolam što mnogi i znaju, a ti si uvijek ozbiljan.

[Duke]

Kao npr? Dosta vremena ja trolam što mnogi i znaju, a ti si uvijek ozbiljan.

pa evo, jedino se prepirem s tobom, odjedri

[Anthropologique]

That's bullshit. I'm sorry but Polako is biased regarding this. He also argues that haplogroup I2 is not native in the Balkans, and that it came with the Slavs. This is incorrect and based on too many wild assumptions.

If he's biased in respect to the Slavic component he should not be proffering his results as valid. Compromised analysis.

[Pleurat]

Duke je govno

[Temujin]

That's bullshit. I'm sorry but Polako is biased regarding this. He also argues that haplogroup I2 is not native in the Balkans, and that it came with the Slavs. This is incorrect and based on too many wild assumptions.

They both know quite a bit about population genetics. How do you imagine yourself a small minority imposing language and culture on the majority of people in their very own homes?

As for I2a-M423, there is no non-Slavic speaking population that has it in significant numbers. SE Poland, Slovakia and western Ukraine have it more the Balkans in absolute numbers.

[Duke]

Duke je govno

govno ti je tata, a duke je u pravu

[Pleurat]

govno ti je tata, a duke je u pravu

Duke, Ja sranja o vama :D

[Duke]

Duke, Ja sranja o vama :D

ok GT doesent work for you.

You said Duke is shit, and i replied, shit is your dad

Can you see the logic, son?

[sevruk]

That's bullshit. I'm sorry but Polako is biased regarding this. He also argues that haplogroup I2 is not native in the Balkans, and that it came with the Slavs. This is incorrect and based on too many wild assumptions.

I2 came to the Balkans from the Polesie, but most probably before the Slavs

[Loki]

I2 came to the Balkans from the Polesie, but most probably before the Slavs

Most definitely, the Illyrians likely carried it.

[Hevo]

Ahh, another I2a1b discussion.

[Loki]

They both know quite a bit about population genetics. How do you imagine yourself a small minority imposing language and culture on the majority of people in their very own homes?


It has happened quite a few times in history. Quick example: the modern Irish today speak English. But that doesn't mean the Irish are Germanic in ancestry. Another example: Modern-day 'Turks' from Anatolia are predominantly pre-Turkic in genetics.



As for I2a-M423, there is no non-Slavic speaking population that has it in significant numbers. SE Poland, Slovakia and western Ukraine have it more the Balkans in absolute numbers.

Irrelevant, because if not Illyrian it's more likely to have come with the Goths. In fact it fits their migration route well.

[ChocolateFace]

Most definitely, the Illyrians likely carried it.

I still think these people carried it

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Slavic_distribution_origin.png/250px-Slavic_distribution_origin.png

[Duke]

It has happened quite a few times in history. Quick example: the modern Irish today speak English. But that doesn't mean the Irish are Germanic in ancestry. Another example: Modern-day 'Turks' from Anatolia are predominantly pre-Turkic in genetics.



Irrelevant, because if not Illyrian it's more likely to have come with the Goths. In fact it fits their migration route well.


nope because goths were not numerus, they left few cemeteries only, and only in some isolated spots

[Artek]

Irrelevant, because if not Illyrian it's more likely to have come with the Goths. In fact it fits their migration route well.
Migration of Goths from Scandinavia probably never took place because we don't have a solid genetical proof for it (aside from relation of Jordanes who was just hearing rumours).

Away from that, people of Gotland are rather unlikely to be I2

[Duke]

Migration of Goths from Scandinavia probably never took place because we don't have a solid genetical proof for it (aside from relation of Jordanes who was just hearing rumours)

there are few cemetaris in Dalmatia, that are tought to be Gothic

[Loki]

I still think these people carried it

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Slavic_distribution_origin.png/250px-Slavic_distribution_origin.png

If they did, then it would have been very common among Poles and Russians today. But it simply isn't. Instead, R1a has dominance.

Therefore, if you think about it logically ... Slavs divided themselves in two different groups after they've undergone a genetic test? There must have been a command from the leaders: "Okay all of you, listen up. R1a carriers settle in Poland and Russia, and I2 carriers go and invade the Balkans! And don't let me catch you cheating!" :laugh:

[Loki]

Migration of Goths from Scandinavia probably never took place because we don't have a solid genetical proof for it (aside from relation of Jordanes who was just hearing rumours).


:lol:

This is on par with the German nationalistic rumours that no such thing as Slavic existed. They called it the 'Slawenlegende'. :laugh:

[Duke]

If they did, then it would have been very common among Poles and Russians today. But it simply isn't. Instead, R1a has dominance.

Therefore, if you think about it logically ... Slavs divided themselves in two different groups after they've undergone a genetic test? There must have been a command from the leaders: "Okay all of you, listen up. R1a carriers settle in Poland and Russia, and I2 carriers go and invade the Balkans! And don't let me catch you cheating!" :laugh:

Croats and Illyrians came from same place, in 2 different migrations, I2a carriers were certainly indoeuropinized by language, but that doesn't mean carrier tribes disolved.

Whole west Europe and Scandinavia is Indoeuropanized

[Loki]

nope because goths were not numerus, they left few cemeteries only, and only in some isolated spots

They were numerous enough to conquer all of Italy and Iberia.

[ChocolateFace]

If they did, then it would have been very common among Poles and Russians today. But it simply isn't. Instead, R1a has dominance.

Therefore, if you think about it logically ... Slavs divided themselves in two different groups after they've undergone a genetic test? There must have been a command from the leaders: "Okay all of you, listen up. R1a carriers settle in Poland and Russia, and I2 carriers go and invade the Balkans! And don't let me catch you cheating!" :laugh:


I don't mean to bring this discussion up and go off topic again but Ukranians carry it and South Slavs are said to come from there. Stefan_Dusan said that he thinks it is actually Sarmatian in origin and I also seen this theory elsewhere.

[Hevo]

Away from that, people of Gotland are rather unlikely to be I2

Exactly, I2a1b is absent in Scandinavia. If they carried I2 then it would most likely I2a2 instead of I2a1b.

[Artek]

If they did, then it would have been very common among Poles and Russians today. But it simply isn't. Instead, R1a has dominance.

Could be a founder effect, we don't know how I2 frequency looked like among the Slavs that crossed the Danube. Maybe this I2 dominance in Balkans is a later phenomenon. Any option can't be excluded.

[Benacer]

They both know quite a bit about population genetics. How do you imagine yourself a small minority imposing language and culture on the majority of people in their very own homes?


Better/more practical technology, martial culture, more advanced equipment, better tactics/weapons(if the culture is imposed), etc. There are many, many ways this could happen.

[Duke]

They were numerous enough to conquer all of Italy and Iberia.

by help of locals who were tired of Roman oppresion, as they moved west their numbers grew.

But they were nomadic, so no point of searching them here, they moved to spain

[Artek]

:lol:

This is on par with the German nationalistic rumours that no such thing as Slavic existed. They called it the 'Slawenlegende'. :laugh:
They are almost right, because East Germanic tribes probably never existed :). There were proto-Slavs or even Slavs instead. Just reverse their theory

[Loki]

But they were nomadic, so no point of searching them here, they moved to spain

Not all of them, obviously. It is recorded, for example, that Goths freely intermarried with the local populations. I'm talking about the region in north Romania and Moldova - the region where the Goths were stationary for the longest time, until they were pressed to the south west by invading Asiatics. And, guess what? Today haplogroup I2 is found quite abundantly in that exact same area! Also along the Vistula, which was their path from their original Gothiscandza, believed to be on the southern coast of the Baltic (it is not clear whether they were actually in Sweden itself or not).

[Temujin]

Better/more practical technology, martial culture, more advanced equipment, better tactics/weapons(if the culture is imposed), etc. There are many, many ways this could happen.

The Balkans were controlled by the Roman empire. The region many barbarians wanted to settle because it was more technologically advanced and prosperous.

[Duke]

Not all of them, obviously. It is recorded, for example, that Goths freely intermarried with the local populations. I'm talking about the region in north Romania and Moldova - the region where the Goths were stationary for the longest time, until they were pressed to the south west by invading Asiatics. And, guess what? Today haplogroup I2 is found quite abundantly in that exact same area! Also along the Vistula, which was their path from their original Gothiscandza, believed to be on the southern coast of the Baltic (it is not clear whether they were actually in Sweden itself or not).



I haplogrups in general are not germanic, but germanized

[Loki]

Could be a founder effect, we don't know how I2 frequency looked like among the Slavs that crossed the Danube. Maybe this I2 dominance in Balkans is a later phenomenon. Any option can't be excluded.

Which is one of the reasons I'm questioning this "Balkan I2 = Slavic" assertions.

[Loki]

I haplogrups in general are not germanic, but germanized

Nor Slavic.

[Duke]

Which is one of the reasons I'm questioning this "Balkan I2 = Slavic" assertions.

Its carried by Slavs for the most part, so there is no point of arguing it, except for trolling

[Duke]

Nor Slavic.

well, that is what i am saying, some of it came to become Slavics, and some Germanics, there you go

[Artek]

Which is one of the reasons I'm questioning this "Balkan I2 = Slavic" assertions.
You have a full right to do it but after some years we will see which theory was a proper one.

[Loki]

You have a full right to do it but after some years we will see which theory was a proper one.

Indeed :)

[Loki]

Its carried by Slavs for the most part, so there is no point of arguing it, except for trolling

Correction: it is carried by Balkanites for the most part.

[Twistedmind]

Correction: it is carried by Balkanites for the most part.

I dont remember high proportion of it among Albanians and Greeks.

[Loki]

I dont remember high proportion of it among Albanians and Greeks.

They're Eastern Balkanites for the most part. The Balkan is large.

[Pleurat]

Albanians have only 7% of I2a2 and northern albanians less than 5%. Greeks have about 15% I2a2, much more than albanians.

[Alenka]

They're Eastern Balkanites for the most part. The Balkan is large.
Albanians aren't Eastern Balkanites

[Twistedmind]

They're Eastern Balkanites for the most part.


Loki, I would say Bulgaria is Eastern Balkans, Albanians are Southwestern and Greeks are Southern.


The Balkans are large
And verry diverse. Culturaly, religiously and genneticaly. So far that term Balkanites in such discussions is pointless.

[Loki]

Albanians aren't Eastern Balkanites

Of course they are, for the most part. Largest concentrations in Kosovo, Albania proper and Macedonia.

[Alenka]

Loki, I would say Bulgaria is Eastern Balkans, Albanians are Southwestern and Greeks are Southern.

I agree.

[Loki]

Loki, I would say Bulgaria is Eastern Balkans, Albanians are Southwestern and Greeks are Southern.


Have a look again at the map mate. Croatia and Bosnia are the westernmost, not Albania.



And verry diverse. Culturaly, religiously and genneticaly.


Agreed, which would contradict your notion that all of them should carry I2 in abundance.

[Twistedmind]

Have a look again at the map mate. Croatia and Bosnia are the westernmost, not Albania.
And Bulgaria is easternmost, in contrast Albania is not even on Eastern half of peninsula.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/ZeakCytho/CC/Balkans/Balkans-V2.png



Agreed, which would contradict your notion that all of them should carry I2 in abundance.
No, I did not notice it. I2 is charachteristic just for Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs, each group having more than 40%. And, for Slovenes and Bulgarians in smaller extent. All rest is insgnificant.

[Loki]

And Bulgaria is easternmost, in contrast Albania is not even on Eastern half of peninsula.


What is your point exactly? Mine was that Albanians are found to the east of the main I2 distribution area.



No, I did not notice it. I2 is charachteristic just for Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs, each group having more than 40%. And, for Slovenes and Bulgarians in smaller extent. All rest is insgnificant.

Correct - hence me saying that Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs are (to various degrees) Slavicized pre-Slavic Balkanites.

You know that the Illyrians were not one homogeneous group? They were made up of several different peoples/tribes that inhabited the Balkans.

[Twistedmind]

What is your point exactly? Mine was that Albanians are found to the east of the main I2 distribution area.
Rather on sout of it. East of it is Bulgaria, or in final instance Black Sea.




Correct - hence me saying that Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs are (to various degrees) Slavicized pre-Slavic Balkanites.
Autosomal charts say something else. Since level of Eastern European component on them is arround 50%.




You know that the Illyrians were not one homogeneous group? They were made up of several different peoples/tribes that inhabited the Balkans.
Yes. I know.

[Loki]

Rather on sout of it. East of it is Bulgaria, or in final instance Black Sea.


:picard1:



Autosomal charts say something else. Since level of Eastern European component on them is arround 50%.


Show me those charts. And even if you were correct on that, it still doesn't disprove my point. 50% is only half ...



Yes. I know.

Then why did you claim that the main marker for pre-Slavic Balkanites were E-V13, because Albanians and Greeks carried it?

[Twistedmind]

:picard1:
East?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png




Show me those charts. And even if you were correct on that, it still doesn't disprove my point. 50% is only half ...


http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/aquilaaquilonis/13059706/17424/17424_original.jpg

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkbFGFGkvhh9dF9Va3ZpU3VnRVBTb1ZJckJBYWhGc mc&output=html

It does disaproove. Since it proves Said population is mixture, with Slavic component predominating.



Then why did you claim that the main marker for pre-Slavic Balkanites were E-V13, because Albanians and Greeks carried it?
I dont claim anything about Y-DNA haplogroups, since they are verry bad arguemnt in this kind of discussions.

I just do not udnerstand how Albanians and Greeks are Eastern Balkanites.

[Loki]

East?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png


Yes. You can clearly see the epicentre of I2 distribution is in the western Balkans.

[Loki]

I just do not udnerstand how Albanians and Greeks are Eastern Balkanites.

Now you're throwing a strawman argument here to detract from the main one. Let me clarify for you:

East as in East of the main distribution of haplogroup I2, which is centred around Bosnia. If you can't understand this then you have comprehension problems. But rather, I think you're just trolling.

[Loki]

It does disaproove. Since it proves Said population is mixture, with Slavic component predominating.


From your chart Serbia has a NE component of only 44%, hence not even half of the genes.

[Twistedmind]

Now you're throwing a strawman argument here to detract from the main one. Let me clarify for you:

East as in East of the main distribution of haplogroup I2, which is centred around Bosnia. If you can't understand this then you have comprehension problems.
I just noticed, same as other users here, that Albania and Greece are not stipulated on Eastern side of Balkans. I guess we were talking about different things.




But rather, I think you're just trolling.
Common Loki, why should I troll you?

[Windischer]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/ZeakCytho/CC/Balkans/Balkans-V2.png


lol is this from some pc game?

[Loki]

I just noticed, same as other users here, that Albania and Greece are not stipulated on Eastern side of Balkans. I guess we were talking about different things.


I know that as well. That wasn't my point. Again, you suffer from lack of comprehension (if you're not trolling). Please re-read what I said, or read this line:

Albania and Greece are to the east of the main centre of haplogroup I2's distribution in the Balkans. This is indisputable.

[Insuperable]

From your chart Serbia has a NE component of only 44%, hence not even half of the genes.

It is not like the most northern Europeans have anywhere close to 100% of NE component, but I do not know why I am telling you this since you are trolling:p

[Szegedist]

Austria is Austria and Serbia is Serbia.

Hope I helped.

[Guapo]

Austria is Austria and Serbia is Serbia.

Hope I helped.

You did, Gheg highalnder

[Corvus]

Austria is Austria and Serbia is Serbia.

Hope I helped.

Its not always so simple to seperate. Visit Vienna and you will know what I mean

[Pleurat]

Its not always so simple to seperate. Visit Vienna and you will know what I mean

Vienna is called the Paris of the east, but Belgrade is called Vienna of Balkans....

[Corvus]

Vienna is called the Paris of the east, but Belgrade is called Vienna of Balkans....

Intresting all I know is that Austrians say "Der Balkan beginnt in Wien" - which means the Balkan starts in Vienna and
due to the fact almost 500.000 Ex Yugos living there its kind of true

[Pleurat]

Intresting all I know is that Austrians say "Der Balkan beginnt in Wien" - which means the Balkan starts in Vienna and
due to the fact almost 500.000 Ex Yugos living there its kind of true

From which yugo country are they most?


And no way balkans begins in Vienna, it begins in Belgrade and achieves it's peak in southwest.....

[Corvus]

From which yugo country are they most?


And no way balkans begins in Vienna, it begins in Belgrade and achieves it's peak in southwest.....

Serbia and Croatia as well as Bosnia
But the Serbs outnumber the rest:

Vienna (Serbian: Bec) is the largest Serbian city after Belgrade, with an estimated 250,000 Serbs living in the city (nearly 10%). Most are small-business owners and taxi-drivers. They are the majority ethnic group in the Vienna neighborhoods East Ottakring, Margareten, and Meidling. While second largest minority group in the neighborhoods of Brigittenau and Favoriten. And they are present in nearly every neighborhood in the city.

Serbs are one of the oldest groups in Vienna, settling in mass during the 18th-19th centuries, founding the oldest Orthodox Church in Vienna, Temple of Saint Sava, in 1893. Vuk Karadzic, the founder of the modern Serbian standard language and Serbian Cyrillic script, lived in Vienna for 51 years, until his death in 1864.

The Serbian community in Vienna has grown so large during the 90s mass immigrations and is on the rise.

I know its just a common phrase used by non Viennese to tease the capitalists.

[Pleurat]

Corvus, do the yugos there mix with austrians or do they keep their own ethnicity?

How much non-european people do you have in Vienna in general?

[Corvus]

Corvus, do the yugos there mix with austrians or do they keep their own ethnicity?

How much non-european people do you have in Vienna in general?

No not yet, they hardly ever intermarriage and most are very proud Serbs or Croats

A lot of Turks (also about 200.000-300.000), many Arabs, but hardly any Blacks or East Asians