I2a2b, R1a1a1a L664, and R1b S21/U106 from 3,000 year old German Urnfield culture

[Fire Haired]

From 13 Y DNA samples in Lichstenstein cave in central Germany apart of Urnfield culture. 10 had I2a2b which decends from Paloithic Cro magnon central European I2a2, two had R1a1a1 (X Slavic R1a M458, X Balto Slavic Z280), and one had Germanic R1b S21/U106. The R1b S21/U106 was reported as plain R1b the R1a1a1 was reported as plain R1a1a. Their haplotypes are online and i but them in Y DNA haplogroup predictors the R1b was predicted as 100% sure Germanic R1b S21/U106. The R1a was predicted to be at least in the Indo European R1a1a1 family. It was put down as x to the main Slavic and Balto Slavic branches R1a M458 and Z280 which both decend from Corded ware culture. There is another R1a branch from Corded ware culture which is Scandnavian R1a Z284 but this predictor did not test for it plus it is almost only found in Scandinavia. There is a Indo European R1a branch found in western Europe R1a1a1a L664 which is probably what both the R1a's were but they still may have been Scandnavian R1a Z284. I X'ed out it's possibilty to be Indo Iranian R1a Z93 since that is from what i know never been found in Europe today.

Here is a branch of R1a family tree.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a-tree.gif


Urnfield culture started around the alps 3,500-3,300ybp. It is a late bronze age culture orignally was Italo Celtic and is what spread R1b S28. I already made a thread kind of explaing how Germanic Italo Celtic speakers with R1b L51- R1b L11 invaded western Europe starting 5,000ybp orignally they came from the steppes like all Indo Europeans. The Germanic and Italo Celtic speakers split about 4,500ybp into R1b S116/P312 with Italo Celts starting Unetice culture in central Europe 4,300ybp. The Germanic's split into R1b S21/U106 starting Nordic bronze age culture in south Scandinavia 4,000ybp.

Here is a link to my thread were i explain it alot more
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe

Urnfield culture extended pretty far. I think some people who technically apart of Urnfield culture were non Italo Celts who adopted the culture, traded alot, or were conquered.

Here is a map of the expansions of Urnfield culture
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/UrnfieldCulture.jpg/240px-UrnfieldCulture.jpg

Urnfield culture gave birth to Hallstat Celtic culture which would later dominate really most of Europe and it gave birth to Italic Villnoeaven culture. The Hallstat Celtic culture was born around the Alps just like Urnfield and defintley were direct descendants of the first Urnfield people so they would have been dominated by R1b S28/U152. The Hallstat Celts were very war like and were able to conquer tons of Europe but their culture also spread by trade. It is true that R1b S28/U152 matches eastward expansions by Hallstat/La Tene Galatiens but not all of R1b S28/U152 matches were Hallstat and La Tene cultures dominated. Like in Iberia so i bet Urnfield spread in a similar way most of the time they conquered but they also spread their culture by trade since they had better weapons and alot of other technology compared to other Europeans.

Germanic R1b S21/U106 probably started in central Germany or around the Netherlands 4,000ybp. Then it migrated more north. Germanic speakers were only in far northern Europe until around 700bc when they started to make migration more south into central Germany, but since proto Germanic langauges and R1b S21/U106 started in central Germany. Why couldn't there still have been people in central Germany who spoke a related language to Germanic, or spoke a Germanic language, and had R1b S21/U106. So there could have been Germanic speaking people with R1b S21.U106 who were technicalley apart of Italo Celtic Urnfield culture because of trade or they were conquered.

3,000 year old Y DNA from Lichtenstein cave in central Germany totally supports that. There was one R1b sample they reported it as R1b but i but it's haplotype which is online into Y DNA haplogroup predictors and it was predicted 100% sure to be R1b S21/U106 not R1b S28/U152 which would be excepted.

[Loki]

10 had I2a2b which decends from Paloithic Cro magnon central European I2a2

Agreed. It's not 'Slavic'.

[Fire Haired]

The I2a2b is decended from non Indo European I2a2 which probably orignated in central Europe over 10,000ybp. There is no doubt that has nothing to do with Slavic's. The two R1a1a1's were x for the tWO main Slavic and Balto slavic brAnches of R1a is what showed me the R1a Had nothing to do with Slav's or Corded ware culture but they were Indo european. Most likley not Scandnavian R1a branch it was to far away and definley not indo iranian branch. so the last R1a branch of indo european origin left is R1a1a1a which is only found in western Europe and seems to have migrated out of the steppes with mainly R1b L23 then eventulley to west europe.

[Hevo]

Agreed. It's not 'Slavic'.

Of course not, we are talking about I2a2b..... The subclade of I2a2b called I2a2b1 is probably Celtic.

[Langbart]

What do you think about archaic R1b clades, like L51, L11 and P312?

[Artek]

I asked an expert on Y-STR values and those Urnfield R1a's could've belong to an early Z280 branch that is now rare (probably Z280 xCTS1211 xZ92) - http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/550/

[Graham]

Quite a mixed bag there. Not surprising. Correlates well with this map from above. From East and west.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/UrnfieldCulture.jpg

[Fire Haired]

I asked an expert on Y-STR values and those Urnfield R1a's could've belong to an early Z280 branch that is now rare (probably Z280 xCTS1211 xZ92) - http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/550/

Okay, thanks.

[Unome]

They probably were a bunch of bad ass warriors raiding villages, drinking mead, and kidnapping hotties

[Drawing-slim]

Are you guys serious? I2a2b found in the Balkans is not Slavic!? How is that even possible??

[Fire Haired]

Are you guys serious? I2a2b found in the Balkans is not Slavic!? How is that even possible??

I2a2b is not the same as I2a1b which is typical for the Balkans.

[Loki]

Are you guys serious? I2a2b found in the Balkans is not Slavic!? How is that even possible??

The majority of I2 clades in the Balkan were there before the Slavs arrived already.

[Drawing-slim]

The majority of I2 clades in the Balkan were there before the Slavs arrived already.

I for one, for sure I was there way before Slavs came.

[Loki]

I for one, for sure I was there way before Slavs came.

You were not born yet :P But your ancestors yes, I agree :D

[Drawing-slim]

You were not born yet :P But your ancestors yes, I agree :D
No no, I was there. I remember when these primitive savages came over. I am, and I feel 1500 years old.

[Fire Haired]

No no, I was there. I remember when these primitive savages came over. I am, and I feel 1500 years old.

Are you some type of ancient hero? Do you have special abilities? Can you speak a pre Slavic language from the Balkans? It must be sad you have watched so many friends die over the past 1500 years. Can you tell me what it was like in the Balkans ~1500 years ago?

[Drawing-slim]

Are you some type of ancient hero? Do you have special abilities? Can you speak a pre Slavic language from the Balkans? It must be sad you have watched so many friends die over the past 1500 years. Can you tell me what it was like in the Balkans ~1500 years ago?

Yes I can speak a language that's at the very least 3000 years old. The current dialect of Albanian that I speak that has been studied by some Austrian linguists.

I remember vividly when Slavs came to Balkans, and more precisely in my area. They burned every single village, killed indiscriminately every civilian and of us that survived took up to the mountains.
Naively we were not prepared nor did we ever conceive for such primitive savages to exist let alone come and attack us. Life was beautiful and peaceful prior Slav arrival.

I remember i traveled to the southern part with my sheep during the winter once, for warmer weather, Queen Teuta noticed me there on the green hills as she was riding her horse while enjoying her land that winter sunny afternoon.
She approached me alone and ordered her escorts to leave.
Interestingly if you must know, the young Queen had no underwear, no underwear back then. After lovemaking and giving her multiple orgasms, she said I could bring my sheep there ever year in the beautiful winters days of the south..

[Fire Haired]

Yes I can speak a language that's at the very least 3000 years old. The current dialect of Albanian that I speak that has been studied by some Austrian linguists.

I remember vividly when Slavs came to Balkans, and more precisely in my area. They burned every single village, killed indiscriminately every civilian and of us that survived took up to the mountains.
Naively we were not prepared nor did we ever conceive for such primitive savages to exist let alone come and attack us. Life was beautiful and peaceful prior Slav arrival.

I remember i traveled to the southern part with my sheep during the winter once, for warmer weather, Queen Teuta noticed me there on the green hills as she was riding her horse while enjoying her land that winter sunny afternoon.
She approached me alone and ordered her escorts to leave.
Interestingly if you must know, the young Queen had no underwear, no underwear back then. After lovemaking and giving her multiple orgasms, she said I could bring my sheep there ever year in the beautiful winters days of the south..

I know your lying obviously(I am not crazy) but I wish somehow this is true. You picked a famous Illyrian queen and there was probably constant war in the Balkans back then as there is everywhere. You cant really give any specifics. Modern Balkan Slavs don't mainly descend from the Slav invaders so they were not all killed. I am sure some people at that time wore underwear. Do you know if Albanian descends from a Thracian or Illyrian language?

[Drawing-slim]

I know your lying obviously(I am not crazy) but I wish somehow this is true. You picked a famous Illyrian queen and there was probably constant war in the Balkans back then as there is everywhere. You cant really give any specifics. Modern Balkan Slavs don't mainly descend from the Slav invaders so they were not all killed. I am sure some people at that time wore underwear. Do you know if Albanian descends from a Thracian or Illyrian language?
So far the best candidate is Illyrian derived language, today's Albanian that is.
I specifically mentioned the dialect where I come from which according to these two Austrians that made a certain controversial findings, is that at least (according to them) this was a language spoken the way it is for 3000 years, and and had to be somekinda dialect within Illyrian region, if not totally Illyrian.

[Fire Haired]

So far the best candidate is Illyrian derived language, today's Albanian that is.
I specifically mentioned the dialect where I come from which according to these two Austrians that made a certain controversial findings, is that at least (according to them) this was a language spoken the way it is for 3000 years, and and had to be somekinda dialect within Illyrian region, if not totally Illyrian.

I am sure in some way it has changed in the last 3,000 years. Is your dialect like another language to standard Albanian or other dialects? I had no idea there were any non Slavic languages in the Balkans besides Greek. It is pretty cool you can speak a language that has been spoken in your native area since the bronze age at least maybe 4,000 years. I will probably try to learn some type of Briton of Gaelic language. English though is mainly derived of Germanic languages that have been around northern central Europe and southern Scandinavia since the bronze age.

[Drawing-slim]

I am sure in some way it has changed in the last 3,000 years. Is your dialect like another language to standard Albanian or other dialects? I had no idea there were any non Slavic languages in the Balkans besides Greek. It is pretty cool you can speak a language that has been spoken in your native area since the bronze age at least maybe 4,000 years. I will probably try to learn some type of Briton of Gaelic language. English though is mainly derived of Germanic languages that have been around northern central Europe and southern Scandinavia since the bronze age.Its a clear Albanian dialect. I can easily understand tosk and the harsher gheg dialects in Kosovo. Basically Albanian populations speak in different dialects for such a small place, but easily I think my dialect of my region is the easiest to understand by all.
Hitler was fascinated by Albanian language, allegedly.