The Muslim Europe

[The Lawspeaker]

The Muslim Europe (http://infidelsunite.typepad.com/counter_jihad/2009/10/the-muslim-europe.html)



http://infidelsunite.typepad.com/.a/6a0111685b4b71970c0120a5bdcfb8970b-800wi (http://infidelsunite.typepad.com/.a/6a0111685b4b71970c0120a5bdcfb8970b-pi)


FamilySecurityMatters (http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.4438/pub_detail.asp) -- Edward Cline

Islam, Europe and Philosophical ‘Continental Drift’


Two Wall Street Journal book reviews, both called “Continental Drift” but spaced over two years apart, echo the pessimism about the future of Europe in the books they discuss: one with absolute pessimism, the other with qualified pessimism. The problem the books discuss is the looming conquest by immigration and non-assimilation by Muslims.

A Daily Telegraph (London) article of August 8th, “Muslim Europe: the demographic time bomb transforming our continent,” substantiates the trends and the perils facing Europe.

Britain and the rest of the European Union are ignoring a demographic time bomb: a recent rush into the EU by migrants, including millions of Muslims, will change the continent beyond recognition over the next two decades, and almost no policy-makers are talking about it.

The numbers are startling. Only 3.2 per cent of Spain's population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent. Europe's Muslim population has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys' names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza.

Yet European leaders and the European Union are ignoring or evading the demographics, writes Adrian Michaels, usually for fear of being accused of racism or religious intolerance.

In another article in the Telegraph, “A fifth of European Union will be Muslim by 2050,” Michaels reports:

Last year, five per cent of the total population of the 27 EU countries was Muslim. But rising levels of immigration from Muslim countries and low birth rates among Europe's indigenous population mean that, by 2050, the figure will be 20 per cent, according to forecasts….Data gathered from various sources indicate that Britain, Spain and Holland will have an even higher proportion of Muslims in a shorter amount of time….The UK, which currently has 20 million fewer people than Germany, is also projected to be the EU's most populous country by 2060, with 77 million people.

Gerald Baker’s May 2007 review of Walter Laqueur’s The Last Days of Europe: Epitaph for an Old Continent, makes many of the same points as Paul Marshall’s September 2009 review of Christopher Caldwell’s Reflections on the Revolution in Europe: Immigration, Islam, and the West.


The authors and reviewers concur that Europe is stymied by two disabling phenomena: the deluge of Muslims whose creed forbids all but token assimilation and whose growing numbers will ultimately present non-Muslim Europeans with the paradox of having to choose to assimilate into Islamic society, or else; and the inability or unwillingness of Europe’s policymakers to deal with a problem of their own and their predecessors’ making.

[Freomæg]

I'm confident that more and more 'thinkers', authors and journalists will at least acknowledge the danger as the Islamification increases. Whether that can be translated into action I'm not sure. The more Muslims that flood into Europe, the more difficult 'action' will become (meaning, the more rights Islam will enjoy, the more collective political strength it will possess and the more European wealth Islam will possess).

[Octothorpe]

And one of the biggest problems is that most see Islam as a religion only, and therefore must be treated as equal to all others. The truth is quite different: Islam is a 'global' system, like Communism. By global, we mean that it does not merely tell an adherent how to pray, but it also is a system of politics, justice, social organization, philosophy, et cetera. When one is a Christian, one can also be a Democrat, a soccer fan, and a lover of seafood. For the Muslim, Islam tells him how to pray, eat, defecate, submit to authority, relate to strangers, and whether or not to follow sports on television. It's global, and therefore inescapable (apostates are usually killed). Islam, therefore, is not just a faith, but a total system of thought that is totalitarian in nature, but even more so than Communism--in Islam, the inmates are the guards, too, and will oppress themselves for Allah. No leader is required.

[Wölfin]

It is really a problem. Before taking any new immigrants Europe should work on assimilating the ones that are there. For those who can't, for those who want Sharia law imposed in Europe, send them home. When you chose to move to a foreign country, the bare minimum in courtesy and logic is to learn the customs and integrate as much as possible.
Also, I do believe immigration policies should be stricter, in quite a few aspects... make them pass an exam, to see what they know about their future host country and how well they'd fit in. Give 'em a trial period and repass an other test. If they don't improve significantly (if at all) send them home.
I have nothing against immigration, if its productive and beneficial to both the immigrants, the host country and the people already in the country. No need to be as Strict as Japan, but I think you guys get my idea here.

[Loxias]

Islamic culture is not fighting on equal grounds with European culture in Europe.
European culture has been weakened by a century of self-questioning and deconstruction (yes I love that word) that wouldn't even be thinkable in the muslim world.
The best way of determining the spread of islamic culture in areas is indeed assessing the percentage of newborn children who were given islamic names.
It's a great way of bypassing statistical obscurantism in places like France.
For instance see : top baby names in the département of Seine-Saint-Denis (http://www.aufeminin.com/world/maternite/prenoms/prenomdpt__dpt=93&departement=seine-saint-denis.html) (Paris' northeastern suburbs, and département with highest fertility rate in the country, at around 2.4).

[Brännvin]

European culture has been weakened by a century of self-questioning and deconstruction (yes I love that word) that wouldn't even be thinkable in the muslim world.

First all you have to define what is European culture :coffee:. Second, is the muslim world a monolithic block of opinions?

[Goidelic]

Islam must be destroyed! :mad:

[Loxias]

First all you have to define what is European culture :coffee:. Second, is the muslim world a monolithic block of opinions?

I shoould have said European cultures, that's true, but I am talking about Western cultures in general, and the common destiny they had during the last 50 years (or even a bit more).

And, no, the muslim world definitely isn't a monolithich block of opinions, however, it is getting increasingly homogenised through it's own version of globalisation, under both the influence of Saudi capitals and a growing feeling of unting antagonism to the Western World.

This homogenisation is even greater in Europe, where muslims who don't try to integrate tend to stick together and unite around the dominant islamic strain among them. For instance, in the UK, around influential imams imported directly from Saudi and Egyptian Salafi circles (that's how we end up with the picture at the head of the thread).

[Wölfin]

This homogenisation is even greater in Europe, where muslims who don't try to integrate tend to stick together and unite around the dominant islamic strain among them. For instance, in the UK, around influential imams imported directly from Saudi and Egyptian Salafi circles (that's how we end up with the picture at the head of the thread).

That is my biggest problem really. Because I do know one or two muslims, rare gems who are otherwise completely westernized and keep their religion at home, private, the way I think religion should be.

[Sarmata]

Islam is danger becouse it's fanatical and..."healthy" for his followers. While christianity is rotten, and Europeans respect secular laws bases on tolerance and equality therefore Muslims have easy task to conquer Europe.Just becouse they doesn't carre for our laws and values.
Islamic women "produce" many children and islamic men could easy die for their religion and people...Ofcourse they're primitive backwards etc., so we can laugh...until we wake in "Eurabia". Ofcourse I'm not fan of Islam but could We Europeans opose "something" to Islam, and survive?

[Brännvin]

I shoould have said European cultures, that's true, but I am talking about Western cultures in general, and the common destiny they had during the last 50 years (or even a bit more).

This was caused by cultural relativism adopted by many European societies, after the second war, right?



And, no, the muslim world definitely isn't a monolithich block of opinions...

That's true..



however, it is getting increasingly homogenised through it's own version of globalisation, under both the influence of Saudi capitals and a growing feeling of unting antagonism to the Western World.

I'm not clear on the question of whether or not becoming homogenized, however, in relation to the Saudis, we buy their oil to power our modern way of life in exchange they finance mosques in our countries, right?

In the end of day, we feed a part of it



This homogenization is even greater in Europe, where muslims who don't try to integrate tend to stick together and unite around the dominant islamic strain among them.

Creation of ghettos is not restricted only to Muslim immigrants, but to all them.



For instance, in the UK, around influential imams imported directly from Saudi and Egyptian Salafi circles (that's how we end up with the picture at the head of the thread).

The British government is an ally of them, UK is an arms supplier and buyer of oil from Saudi Arabia. ;)

[Loxias]

This was caused by cultural relativism adopted by many European societies, after the second war, right?

Among other things. Cultural relativism, overquestioning and deconstructing of most values (see the appearance of gender studies and other post-modern schools of thoughts) are to be blamed. While a lot of it was legitimate and was understandable as a consequence of Western history. Having a thoroughly deconstructed, relativised and questioned culture put into competition with wholesome, and non-questioned foreign cultures in Europe leads the latters to overrun Europe without much resistance.
What values can we use to protect ourselves from foreign culture when we don't have any left? When each we put forward is already questioned by ourselves?
In the end, it will just make us an easy people and territory to be conquered.



I'm not clear on the question of whether or not becoming homogenized, however, in relation to the Saudis, we buy their oil to power our modern way of life in exchange they finance mosques in our countries, right?

In the end of day, we feed a part of it

I was actually talking about the growing middle-eastern influence in muslim trends and cultures in non-middle-eastern muslim societies. Countries like Malaysia or Pakistan are great exemples of that. It is felt more righteous and correct to arabise your way, there. It can be seen not only on faith aspects, but also on architecture, food, political decisions.
And yes, we also feed a part of it by supporting the Saudi economy. I am pretty sure that countries that are changing towards a more arabic lifestyle do so, at least partially, out of an inferiority complex in the face of the Saudi wealth and of course their significance as the land where Islam was born.



Creation of ghettos is not restricted only to Muslim immigrants, but to all them.
See what I said at the start of this here post. ;)
I was only talking about muslims here because they are the main topic of the discussion.



The British government is an ally of them, UK is an arms supplier and buyer of oil from Saudi Arabia. ;)

Yes, and they are paying the consequences of it... Too bad the average Briton, who suffers the most from that, didn't have his/her say in UK's foreign politics decisions.

[Bari]

The question should not only be how many really are fanatical, but if it is a risk worth taking? And there are many that hide their fanatical faith behind a moderate image, as they know how controversial their views are if declared in mass numbers, and they know this is a way of ensuring family reunions and extended immigration. If theres one thing i have learned from my encounters with african/asian muslims is that they truly know the art of deceiving and twisting their views about islam to a more political correct view, the moment they get nailed by reporters. There are already examples of ideal muslim immigrants, apperantly moderate and open-minded being connected to islamic terrorist organizations.

(IsraelNN.com) One of the radical groups operating on the Temple Mount is Hizab Altahrir (The Islamic Liberation Party), which espouses an ideology similar to Al Qaeda. Hizab Altahrir’s network spans most Western European countries. The party puts Islamic revolution and an uncompromising form of Jihad (holly war) at the top of its political agenda.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9161/hizabkuku.jpg

Supporters of Hizab Altahrir on the Temple Mount



The group advocates subjecting the entire world to Islamic law (Shariya), and destroying non-believing nations and religions.

The party has targeted Europe, specifically Denmark, for spreading its ideology, and providing a springboard for renewing Islamic conquests in Europe. A senior party activist in Jerusalem, Sheikh Issam Amira, expressed this philosophy in a recent speech which he made on the Temple Mount:

“Listeners! The Moslems in Denmark make up three percent [of the population], yet constitute a threat to the future of the Danish kingdom. It’s no surprise that in Bitrab (the ancient name of Medina, a city in Arabia to which Mohammed immigrated) they were fewer than three percent of the general population, but succeeded changing the regime in Bitrab.

“It’s no surprise that our brothers in Denmark have succeeded in bringing Islam to every home in that country. Allah will grant us victory in their land to establish the [Islamic] revolution in Denmark.”

After Denmark, the Sheikh said, the party will carry the revolution to Oslo and change its name to Medina. “They will fight against their Scandinavian neighbors in order to bring the country into the territory of the revolution,” he said. “In the next stage, they will fight a holy jihad to spread Islam to the rest of Europe, until it spreads to the original city of Medina where the two cities will unite under the Islamic flag.” Sheikh Riyad Salah, head of the Islamic movement in Israel has also been active teaching the tenets of “Islamic revolution.”

“We are at the gates of the Islamic revolution,” he proclaims in his sermons to Arab citizens of Israel. “The global forces of evil will be eliminated from the world and the Islamic nation will remain in place in order to bring about the world Islamic revolution, with its capital, Jerusalem.”

Salah, who until a few months ago was under arrest for allegedly assisting an organization connected to the Hamas terror group, has for a number of years been attempting to organize Israel’s Arab citizens into an “independent Palestinian society,” disconnected from the State of Israel and its institutions.

Salah’s organization contributed to efforts to repair Arab mosques on the Temple Mount, and also attempts to erase the remains of Jewish antiquities on the Mount.

In Israel, the Hizab Altahrir party is sending out charismatic Islamic preachers to spread its ideology to mosques in villages near Jerusalem, Hevron, Kalkilya, and Tulkarem.

When large numbers of Moslems visited mosques last October during the holy month of Ramadan, the party expanded its efforts to recruit new members and activists in the Palestinian Authority (PA).

Thousands of young Arabs living in the PA have been participating in the party’s youth movement under the slogan, “Campaigning to Preach Revolution.”

On the Temple Mount near the Dome of the Rock, Altahrir’s youth recently put up a giant banner declaring “Revolution is a Divine Command.” The party’s flag appears on the right and left hand side of the banner (See top photo). The youth were greeted by party members who shouted, “Next year in Jerusalem, under the rule of the Islamic revolution.”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/92906


An Egyptian Journalist on the Connection Between Wahhabism and Terrorism

Following the bombings in Riyadh on May 12, 2003, the deputy editor of the independent Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Yousef, Wael Al-Abrashi, who is also an expert on Sunni terrorist movements, wrote several articles on Saudi Wahhabism and the development of Islamist terror. The following are excerpts from Al-Abrashi's article:


A Wahhabi World View

In an article published on May 31, 2003 in Roz Al-Yousef, Al-Abrashi wrote: "A Wahhabi Saudi sheikh warned young people not to speak English and not to try to study it. He swallowed his saliva, wet his lips, and screamed: 'This is the language of the infidels, to the point where it has the word 'blease' ['please'], which is derived from iblis [Satan]. This is the language of the devil…'"

"Anyone can come and say that this sheikh does not represent all Wahhabis, but I will reply that most of the Wahhabi sheikhs have in the past forbidden the study of geography, English, philosophy, and drawing; besides that, what is the difference between what this Wahhabi sheikh said and the Fatwa of [Sheikh] Bin Baz – the [late] leader of Wahhabism – which stated that the planet Earth does not rotate?"

Al-Qa'ida – A Saudi Wahhabi Organization
"Wahhabism prohibits the woman from working, forbids her to drive a car, and bans democracy, treating it as a religion in addition to the religion of Allah. Wahhabism attributes great importance to the [outward] forms of Islam – growing a beard, ankle-length garments for men, and the requirement to use toothpicks instead of the satanic Western toothbrush. One Wahhabi leader, Sheikh bin 'Athimein, prohibited smoking, praying behind a smoker, shaving one's beard, praying behind a clean-shaven man, and wearing European clothing because it is polytheists' clothing…"

"I say that this Wahhabism is incapable of establishing a modern state and incapable of spreading the values of tolerance that Islam has set out. On the contrary, this Wahhabism leads, as we have seen, to the birth of extremist, closed, and fanatical streams, that accuse others of heresy, abolish them, and destroy them. The extremist religious groups have moved from the stage of Takfir [1] to the stage of 'annihilation and destruction,' in accordance with the strategy of Al-Qa'ida – which Saudi authorities must admit is a local Saudi organization that drew other organizations into it, and not the other way around. All the organizations emerged from under the robe of Wahhabism."

'Saudi Arabia Helped Perpetrators of Terror Attacks in Egypt, Beginning with Sadat's Assassination'
"I can state with certainly that after a very careful reading of all the documents and texts of the official investigations linked to all acts of terror that have taken place in Egypt, from the assassination of the late president Anwar Sadat in October 1981, up to the Luxor massacre in 1997, Saudi Arabia was the main station through which most of the Egyptian extremists passed, and emerged bearing with them terrorist thought regarding Takfir – thought that they drew from the sheikhs of Wahhabism. They also bore with them funds they received from the Saudi charities."

"Apparently, we had to wait all these years and the September 11 explosions had to happen, and many other explosions that harmed Saudi Arabia's stability, for the Saudi authorities to understand the two dangers: 'The danger of Wahhabi Takfir Fatwas [and] the danger of charities, most of whose money ultimately flows to the treasuries of extremists…"

"…Based on the documents and the investigations in all cases of terror that harmed Egypt [in the 1980s and 1990s], I determined that there was not a single case in which Saudi Arabia was not the main station for the extremists…"

"The ideas of the Wahhabi sheikhs and the funds of the charities turned into rifle bullets in the breasts of the innocent. An official memo by the Egyptian Interior Ministry immediately after the assassination of the late president Anwar Sadat enumerated the reasons for the buildup in extremist religious activity in Egypt. It was written there – and first published here – that the investigations and the confessions of the terror organization members showed that Sheikh Omar Abd Al-Rahman, the mufti of the [Al-Gam'ah Al-Islamiyya] organization, brought a tape-duplicating machine from Saudi Arabia and, from his home in Al-Fayoum, recorded and disseminated numerous cassettes of lectures and sermons expressing the ideology of the organization and serving its strategy and its plans. The cassettes accused the ruler of heresy and said there must be a coup against him…"

'Arab Leaders are Always Infidels – Except in Saudi Arabia'
"The Wahhabi sheikhs used the Fatwas of Ibn Taymiyyah dealing with the Mongols and the conquerors for disseminating the ideology of Takfir and Jihad against the ruler. What is strange is that while the Wahhabis accused the rulers of heresy and called to fight Jihad against them in countries such as Egypt, Algieria, Tunisia, Morocco, and Jordan, they ruled that cooperating with the government in Saudi Arabia was a binding religious commandment and that the ruler is the [only] one authorized to declare Jihad, implement punishments, collect alms, and [enforce] the imperative of promoting virtue and preventing vice, and that it was an obligation to cooperate with it and obey it as long as it applied Islamic law."

"We used to ask the Wahhabi sheikhs and the members of extremist Egyptian religious groups: 'You demand obedience to the Saudi ruler and refraining from rising up against him, while you call for Jihad against the ruler and toppling the regime in Egypt and in other Arab countries. What is the meaning of this contradiction?' Their answer was: 'The difference is that Islamic religious law is implemented in Saudi Arabia, and not implemented in the other Arab countries.' But the day came when Saudi youth accused the Saudi authorities too of heresy, called for [Jihad] against them, and accused them of defiling the places holy to Islam via the American forces. Anyone who adopts the Takfir ideology and uses it for his own interests will be burned in its fire, because no one can control it…"

'Today, Saudi Arabia Has Become the Biggest Arena for Extremist Ideology'

"Today, Saudi Arabia has become the biggest arena for extremist ideology and [provided] the broadest scope for the development of its viruses. As a result, the Saudi authorities have, for the first time, begun to carry out security detention of 'inciters to violence' among the Wahhabi sheikhs."

'Egyptian Workers' Passports Confiscated in Saudi Arabia End Up With Terrorists'
"I call for an attempt to protect Egyptians from the old-new terror coming from Saudi Arabia. Egypt must be fortified ideologically and through security against Wahhabi ideas. In this framework, I call for an investigation of what I call 'the phenomenon of the disappearance and theft of Egyptian passports from Saudi Arabia,' and I use the term 'phenomenon' accurately. According to [Egyptian] Foreign and Interior Ministry sources, Saudi Arabia [is the number one country from] where passports of Egyptian workers are stolen and disappear. This phenomenon has been on the rise from the early 1990s, the period of the large terror operations [in Egypt], until today."

"In accordance with the method of guaranty – a method no less backward than Wahhabism itself and which contains all the seeds of racism, hatred, and repression – the Saudi 'guarantor' holds the passports of the [foreign] workers, and if the Egyptian or other worker wants to travel, [it is easy for] the guarantor not to give him his passport; he can even throw him into jail. If the Egyptian complains, the guarantor can say he already gave him his passport but the Egyptian lost it. The [Egyptian] Foreign and Interior Ministry files hold dozens of complaints connected to the disappearance or theft of the passports of Egyptians working in Saudi Arabia, primarily in the last 15 years."

"It is suspected that the lost and stolen passports find their way to extremist religious organizations. Nine Egyptians complained about a Saudi guarantor named Muhammad Haroun several years ago, because he stole their passports and fled with them to Afghanistan…"

Wahhabi Terror and U.S. Bases in Saudi Arabia

"All that is left to say is that the Saudi leaders sought to gain religious protection, so they took Wahhabism as a shield; they sought to gain military protection, so they opened their land to the American forces. But it is odd that Saudi Arabia was burned by the fire of both Wahhabism and the American bases. Those who fight, sabotage, and destroy do so in accordance with the Wahhabi Fatwas, and justify their deeds by the presence of American bases. The only solution for the Saudi crisis is to trim the claws of Wahhabism, and to purify it and empty it of its content, so that it can become mainstream, moderate Islam. That is, Wahhabism should be gotten rid of, and then the American bases that provide a pretext for the armed violence should be gotten rid of."

"I will be even more frank. The Wahhabis and the Saudi princes hate Muhammad 'Ali, and have a complex because of him, because he sent his forces against them, eliminated them, invaded their capital, and scattered them from the Arabian Peninsula. Some historians and commentators, and even residents of the Arabian Peninsula, think Muhammad 'Ali's attack on the Wahhabis was an attack on terror and terrorism. The British commisioner of Kuwait, Dixon, who was responsible for Saudi matters, wrote at the time: 'Ibrahim Pasha, commander of the army of Muhammad 'Ali, gained the admiration and trust of the public in Najjd. He was received at Mount Shamar, Al-Qassim, and Al-Ahsaa as a deliverer from the Wahhabi fire, not as a foreign conqueror.'"

'An Attack on Wahabbism is Needed'

"Wahhabism needs now an attack of another kind that will be like the attack of Muhammad 'Ali, but will be this time an ideological, cultural, religious, and political attack that will be led by the Saudi authorities themselves, and will not be forced from without. The attack must be Saudi, and not American, it must be more ideological and political than security. The attack on Wahhabism is an attack on terror, backwardness, and fanaticism. Wahhabism has moved from Takfir to destruction, and we do not want it ultimately destroying Saudi Arabia." [2]

'The Roots of Terror are in Saudi Arabia, Not Egypt'

In another article, Al-Abrashi wrote: "…Following the September 11 attacks, everyone was stunned by the reversal in Saudi Arabia's attitude towards the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, despite the close strategic relations they had maintained since the days of Abd Al-Nasser when dozens of [Muslim Brotherhood members] fled to Saudi Arabia. But we quickly realized, based on special sources, that the Saudi authorities aspired to rescue Wahhabism and exonerate it of charges of terror. The only way to do so, they thought, was to place the blame on one of the branches [of Wahhabism] – the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood."

"But this trick did not succeed, and the Americans continued to claim that the ideology of Al-Qa'ida and bin Laden had been formed in the Saudi atmosphere. So some Saudi princes and top officials used another trick, spreading the claim that Egyptian extremists had taken over bin Laden and changed his ideological thought. According to them, 'Ayman Al-Zawahiri, the leader of the extremist Egyptian Jihad organization, was the brain and the ideologue of the Al-Qa'ida organization, and it is he who leads bin Laden. With this claim, they tried to eradicate the Saudi color from the Al-Qa'ida organization and state that the organization was no more than a continuation of the Egyptian Takfir organization…"

"Saudi Arabia supported the closed Wahhabi religious and ideological extremism and created the Al-Qa'ida organization. It persecuted the Shi'ite minority and permitted the deployment of the American presence on its land, in a way that contradicts its religious position and its national sovereignty. Thus began the catastrophe, and when it will end we do not know." [3]

In another article, Al-Abrashi wrote: "…Although Saudi Arabia has adopted a strategy of exporting Wahhabism to the rest of the world, it has continued in recent years to claim that the ideology of the extremist Takfir was imported from abroad and was brought into Saudi Arabia, primarily from Egypt, and that it has no roots of any kind in Saudi culture. Saudi Arabia created the monster, exported it abroad, and then lost control of it. Then, the monster turned on it…" "Saudi Arabia is in danger. It can neither relinquish Wahhabism nor leave it as it is; it can neither keep the American presence nor get rid of it. I say again, Saudi Arabia is in danger, since the Al-Saud family has placed it between the Wahhabi hammer and the anvil of the American bases." [4]



[B]The wahhabis are an arab-islamist organization with islamic world dominance as main goal. They build mosques all over Europe, and try recruiting fanatic youth.


http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD52603


http://www.redmoonrising.com/Ikhwan/Clash.htm (Interesting site focusing on islamic terrorism)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5mXp6bSD5g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6zCgm_GQZ4&feature=related

Former terrorist speaks out against islamic terrorism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUNLQbysMLA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpisP1jqKe8&feature=related

This arab woman has some quite good points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQsFY7n1XQ4

[Absinthe]

Islam must be destroyed! :mad:
Why should Islam be destroyed? :confused:

In any case, how does your statement differ from the respective statements of radical Muslims who claim that everything non-Islamic must be destroyed? :icon_ask:

I think we're losing the essence here. Our problem is not with Islam per se, but with the expansion of Islamic influence on non-Islamic soil, which happens to be our soil, and which is in turn threatened of losing its identity.

Otherwise why would one care to destroy Islam in its natural habitat? I don't remember anyone of us calling for the destruction of Islam some decades ago, when the religion was pretty much contained in the Arabic, Middle Eastern and sub-Saharan regions.

[Inese]

Islam must be destroyed! :mad:
Yes, in Europe and our countrys!! :nod When they go back to their home regions all is fine and good for me

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, in Europe and our countrys!! :nod When they go back to their home regions all is fine and good for me
I agree. They should be wiped out here in Europe. If they don't want to leave we will make them leave and the means will not be pleasant. Every trace is Islam in Europe must be eradicated.
But when they are in their own desert we should not pursue them or harm them because then it would be genocide. Kicking them out of Europe is good enough.

[Cato]

A bit off topic:

I've met middle easterners in my hometown, especially at work, but it's hard to tell if the men are Muslims or not. It's always the women that give em away for what they are, since the women are always wearing hijabs, etc. I don't have a real problem with this, since every religious group ought to be allowed to wear its costume. I've met Sikhs in turbans at work. Tibetan Buddhists in orange robes. Jews in skullcaps (these are my least favorite people to meet, and not because I don't like Jews; I just had a poor experience with an old, fat grouchy Jewish man once). Nuns in habits. Hindus in traditional clothing. Africans in native-styled garb.

No problems with any of this at all, and I actually like seeing the different styles of dress. The easterners, the Indians and Chinese especially, are almost unfailingly polite. I had a nice chat once with an elderly Chinese couple about China and Chinese literature. They came back and brought me some presents later on, which has never happened before or since (Chinese love to give presents). Again, no problems!

None of these people have ever really struck me as being raving, maddened cultural, political or religious imperialists. I know that such people exist, but the vast majority of the non-white foreign people that I meet at work are decent and, a lot of the times, nicer overall than the local white trash slobs (these are the worst imo, since most of the morbidly obese, disgusting sacks of shit I see are sadly white) and ghetto retards that I meet.

Does Islam want to take over the world? Sure, it's written in the stupid Koran. It's written in the concept of dar al-Islam and dar al-Harb. Do Muslims want to take over the world? Not all of them (however it's the passive majority that truly empowers the fanatical minority). I've met Muslims that're peaceful enough, usually since they're "bad" Muslims and don't follow all of the rules of their religion. I know a [black] Muslim guy from way back that use to skip out of mosque all the time, drink beer, smoke dope (never smoked it myself :D), etc. For him, prayer at the mosque was a way to get out of school early so that he could go and hang out with his other deadbeat friends. A real slacker but an awesome guy and never once did he strike me as being a rabid, drooling retard.

[Tony]

Otherwise why would one care to destroy Islam in its natural habitat?
Absi how would you define "islamic natural habitat"?Untill 1830s also Greece was Islamic natural habitat ;)
In my view there can't be any real peace between Europe and Muslim world untill they'll retreat from the Mediterranean sea , the major vulnus to us has been the breaking of the Mare ******* unity occured in the 7th century.
Muslims should be expelled with armed forces by all Mediterranean shores , countries like Morocco , Lybia , Egypt , Israel , Turkey and so on will be then repopulated by Dutch , Germans , French , Scandinavias etc
the natural habitat of Islam are the deserts of Arabia.

[Loxias]

Absi how would you define "islamic natural habitat"?Untill 1830s also Greece was Islamic natural habitat ;)
In my view there can't be any real peace between Europe and Muslim world untill they'll retreat from the Mediterranean sea , the major vulnus to us has been the breaking of the Mare ******* unity occured in the 7th century.
Muslims should be expelled with armed forces by all Mediterranean shores , countries like Morocco , Lybia , Egypt , Israel , Turkey and so on will be then repopulated by Dutch , Germans , French , Scandinavias etc
the natural habitat of Islam are the deserts of Arabia.

Even as a long-term aim, this is a complete pipe-dream. I think we need to focus on what is in our countries at the moment, it's going to take enough time already.

[Absinthe]

Absi how would you define "islamic natural habitat"?

Perhaps it was an unfortunate choice of words, but Islam originated in the Arabic world and it should have stayed there


Untill 1830s also Greece was Islamic natural habitat ;)

You know that is bullshit, Greece was occupied territory and its people had been Christians all the way through the occupation.

In fact the Church takes pride in playing a major role in the Revolution against the Ottoman rule. I am not Christian but this is a Historical fact.


In my view there can't be any real peace between Europe and Muslim world untill they'll retreat from the Mediterranean sea

Isn't this what I also said? :rolleyes:


Muslims should be expelled with armed forces by all Mediterranean shores , countries like Morocco , Lybia , Egypt , Israel , Turkey and so on will be then repopulated by Dutch , Germans , French , Scandinavias etc
the natural habitat of Islam are the deserts of Arabia.

Repopulated? P-lease. Let's try to salvage the Dutch, German, French and Scandinavians in their own natural habitat, first. :rolleyes:

[Cato]

Islam needs to be wiped out imo, just like other vaporous doctrines (Zionism, Nutzism, etc.). I've really got nothing against the people who practice it at all, but they're the main carriers of the infection and are in need of inoculation (even with a big painful needle).

[Anthropos]

That is my biggest problem really. Because I do know one or two muslims, rare gems who are otherwise completely westernized and keep their religion at home, private, the way I think religion should be.

Wasn't it those 'Western' ideals of individualism and secularisation that made us weak in the first place? As a cure for the sickness, I don't think that dying of it is the solution. Westernising immigrants leads to the perfect melting-pot, a calm one perhaps (almost as if constantly on valium) but bereft of any principle and qualitative life. Uniformisation does not unite people. It reduces them to quantitative units in the works. Why do you think that the regime is so concerned with taking in immigrants, and so concerned with westernising them? What's the plan?

[Tony]

Even as a long-term aim, this is a complete pipe-dream. I think we need to focus on what is in our countries at the moment, it's going to take enough time already.
It's a long term strategy , however wars do happen , it might be we're at war with some muslims state , say Lybia , in 5 years , who really knows...


You know that is bullshit, Greece was occupied territory and its people had been Christians all the way through the occupation.

It was a provocation , I was trying to make you get the point that it's a bit difficult to draw a line and claim a portion of land as "islamic property" and another one free to be conquered by Europeans.
Even if imho the real Islamic native land is the line between Medina and Mecca , no Middle East or Sub Saharan Africa nor even the whole Arabian peninsula , all the other lands being acquired throu mere military victories.
About the Greek being Christian , I knew that in the Greek-Turk war aftermath there's been a population exchange during wich about 500.000 muslim Turkes left Greece...:coffee:
500,000 mudslims in the 1920s Greece must have been a great share of popupation I assume so you weren't all Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey

[Absinthe]

About the Greek bein Christian , I knew that in the Greek-Turk war aftermath there's been a population exchange during wich about 500.000 muslim Turkes left Greece...:coffee:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey

Your point being? :icon_ask:

[Tony]

Your point being? :icon_ask:
The definition of Islamic natural habitat.
Greece had its share of muslim population at that time , I think I'm not that far from truth if I say they were about 10% overall , and this in the early 1920s , almost a century after Greece gained independence.

So...

to an extent even Greece were Islamic natural habitat.
Today even Egypt has its 8% of christian population , not to mention Syria or Lebanon...

So...
wouldn't be better to just wipe 'em out wherever they are 'till we reach the complete liberation of Mediterranean?

I've got the impression that you cared just for Greece and once you're freed from muslims who cares of the rest of Mediterranean.:rolleyes2:

[Absinthe]

The definition of Islamic natural habitat.
Greece had its share of muslim population at that time , I think I'm not that far from truth if I say they were about 10% overall , and this in the early 1920s , almost a century after Greece gained independence.


The same was true with Turkey, who had a fair share of Christian Greeks living there before the population exchange... And we all know how that resulted in a bloody mess.

After 400 years of occupation it is not easy to conduct "ethnic cleansing" in a single day, so...


So...

to an extent even Greece were Islamic natural habitat.

Bullshit again, it was a Christian habitat with a Muslim minority.


Today even Egypt has its 8% of christian population , not to mention Syria or Lebanon...

A Muslim country with a Christian minority.


So...
wouldn't be better to just wipe 'em put wherever they are 'till we reach the complete liberation of Mediterranean?

Wipe them out wherever they are?

Sure, let us, a handful of Europeans, disregard our own problems and declare a Holy War against Islam :D

Let us "wipe out" a few billions of people "wherever they are" when we can't even salvage our own lands. :rolleyes:


I've got the impression that you cared just for Greece and once you're freed from muslims who cares of the rest of Mediterranean.:rolleyes2:

What?! :eek: Where did I say that? Are you stupid or just trolling? Unless by "mediterranean" you mean Egypt and Morocco, the "liberation" of which you spoke...

I only care for the European part of the Mediterranean, who am I going to liberate North Africa from, its own people? :rolleyes2:

[Tony]

Bullshit again, it was a Christian habitat with a Muslim minority.
:rolleyes2: I could never thought it would have been so difficult...

so what about Albania and Bosnia?
what's your attitude toward them?




A Muslim country with a Christian minority.

In the year 1000 it was like Greece , a predominantly Christian country with a massive ruling muslim minority class so it seems now the term "islamic natural habitat" change thru time...
give Greece another 400 years of Ottoman occupation and who knows perhaps also that would have turn into a muslim majority country , so you wouldn't claim it anymore?
in that case you would have let it to them?


What?! :eek: Where did I say that? Are you stupid or just trolling? Unless by "mediterranean" you mean Egypt and Morocco, the "liberation" of which you spoke...
Last time I checked the Mediterranean had also a southern shore , populated by mixed people , whites and semites , and stolen by Arabs in the 7th century.
If Greece were sized by muslims 500 years earlier then what happened in reality you think it wouldn't turn into a muslim majority country as well?:rolleyes:
doesn't make much sense to me this minority-majority stuff.


I only care for the European part of the Mediterranean, who am I going to liberate North Africa from, its own people? :rolleyes2:
That's a shortsighted strategy imho , untill muslims will be forced to leave ALL the Med shores , there will be no peace , on every point of view , starting with the immigration issue.

Edit=Absinthe I don't wanna liberate the people of the southern shore , I want to liberate the land they occupay , the people will be sent somewhere else , to a better place...

[Groenewolf]

I think we're losing the essence here. Our problem is not with Islam per se, but with the expansion of Islamic influence on non-Islamic soil, which happens to be our soil, and which is in turn threatened of losing its identity.

Problem of course is that Islam demands that all religion become for Allah alone. Or that the Dar-al-Islam spreads over the entire globe and beyond. So we are talking about a believe that in the essence is a danger to what we find important. However this should not necessarily mean we should destroy them, completely defang them would work just as fine.


Otherwise why would one care to destroy Islam in its natural habitat?

What natural habitat? Arabia? Mahomet waged war against them to push his own version of Arbrahamistic religion on to them.


I don't remember anyone of us calling for the destruction of Islam some decades ago, when the religion was pretty much contained in the Arabic, Middle Eastern and sub-Saharan regions.

A few decades ago it was not really contained there. It was only less noticeable out side those regions. And there already a few voices raising there worries about it's spread then. A few decades further and it has become more problematic.

[Monolith]

Of course I'm not fan of Islam but could We Europeans opose "something" to Islam, and survive?
After the second war, Europe has become Americanized, soulless, materialist and utterly shallow. It was rendered defenseless by its own peoples, who stripped themselves of the essence that used to protect them, by inventing new "values" and ideals, with secularism and relativism being some of the most detrimental ones. Muslims, in contrast, have more than enough of this essence. It is called faith, and in their case it is often inimical to Christians but it is there. The only way to survive is to remember who and what our ancestors were.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Wasn't it those 'Western' ideals of individualism and secularisation that made us weak in the first place? As a cure for the sickness, I don't think that dying of it is the solution. Westernising immigrants leads to the perfect melting-pot, a calm one perhaps (almost as if constantly on valium) but bereft of any principle and qualitative life. Uniformisation does not unite people. It reduces them to quantitative units in the works. Why do you think that the regime is so concerned with taking in immigrants, and so concerned with westernising them? What's the plan?

Good points. Given that the natural tendencies of people around the globe are different, for them to be able to integrate into 'western' society we are inevitably forced to change what the definition of 'western' society is.

[Tony]

In my view Monolith has great points but I wish to clarify something , we call it Americanization because America has been the first country to experience that variety of phenomenons called modernism , that is massive immigration , materialism , individualism , greed for money , massive industrialization , the decay of family and moral values etc
but there's nothing of this innate in the Americans , if modernization had been invented by the Chinese now we would be talking about Chinesization...
I say this because sometimes by speaking of this Americanization on and on it seems that Americans are doomed genetically , instead they can be saved by materialism , like Europeans , we whites are not materialistic and mammonites by nature , it's just a moment in our history.

[Cato]

I don't know if the same would hold true in China, which has always been much more hive-minded than the U.S. Confucian values and all, which're making a comeback in China whereas the U.S. has been the seat of much of the cult of the eternal self nonsense, which is something that you see in the earliest days of the republic. I've got a great respect for the Anglo-Saxon heritage of this country. While I also acknowledge the accomplishments of other ethnic groups (Asian, black, Jew, etc.) in the U.S., I still regard the U.S. as having been founded by Englishmen.

Modern-day capitalism is as godless and soul-destroying as communism and it's not the fault of the U.S. per se (although I'll not deny the endemic corruption of my country). Rather, the U.S. has the proper freebooter-styled government to be pillaged at-will and a very inappropriate society in which the self is placed above God, king and country (so to speak).

[Anthropos]

I don't know if the same would hold true in China, which has always been much more hive-minded than the U.S. Confucian values and all, which're making a comeback in China whereas the U.S. has been the seat of much of the cult of the eternal self nonsense, which is something that you see in the earliest days of the republic. I've got a great respect for the Anglo-Saxon heritage of this country. While I also acknowledge the accomplishments of other ethnic groups (Asian, black, Jew, etc.) in the U.S., I still regard the U.S. as having been founded by Englishmen.

Modern-day capitalism is as godless and soul-destroying as communism and it's not the fault of the U.S. per se (although I'll not deny the endemic corruption of my country). Rather, the U.S. has the proper freebooter-styled government to be pillaged at-will and a very inappropriate society in which the self is placed above God, king and country (so to speak).

So to speak? What does it mean, this addition?

[Cato]

In an older age, a man had various duties. Say, a duty to his lord in feudal times, or to his deity, or to his country (think of Cato the Younger's fanatical devotion to the Roman republic).

Now, everyone's mainly out for Number One. This sort of selfish view of the world dominates the modern U.S.; it wasn't the case in the republic's earliest years.

[Skandi]

In an older age, a man had various duties. Say, a duty to his lord in feudal times, or to his deity, or to his country (think of Cato the Younger's fanatical devotion to the Roman republic).

Now, everyone's mainly out for Number One. This sort of selfish view of the world dominates the modern U.S.; it wasn't the case in the republic's earliest years.

I think that that, is the root cause of ALL our problems.