Heavy European admixture in Morroco and Tunisia

[ButlerKing]

What's with the heavy west European admixture in Tunisia and Morocco? did they already had this component or was this brough in during the slavery.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uJ3wHmXSLm0/UFtAN2nsPJI/AAAAAAAAD0g/4sIVqH0icsE/s1600/MDLPatlantomed.jpg

[Shah-Jehan]

From Andalusian Muslims expelled after the reconquista and the Inquisition...

[Sikeliot]

Iberian admixture. Which is the reason many North Africans look similar to Iberians.. the Iberian ancestry in North Africa is higher than the reverse.

[ButlerKing]

From Andalusian Muslims expelled after the reconquista and the Inquisition...


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MGkmFfIxOvA/UFtHQeRcNHI/AAAAAAAAD18/ig60y5QeFYM/s320/MDLPneareast.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Iberian admixture. Which is the reason many North Africans look similar to Iberians.. the Iberian ancestry in North Africa is higher than the reverse.

That's Iberian admixture? does that mean Iceland and U.K are mostly Iberian DNA?

What about this?

According to Robert Davis, between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 19th centuries
Tunisia and Morocco used to be a area where European slaves were traded.

[Sikeliot]

Well it's Western European admixture, but think of how North Africans got it.. from Iberia of course following the Reconquista.

[ButlerKing]

All area of Northern part of Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia have high West European admixture but the same is not true for Libya or Egypt.

[Damião de Góis]

Probably got it in prehistorian times. The strait of Gibraltar wasn't uncrossable.
But of course, slaves and pirates give a much better story.. :rolleyes2:

[rashka]

The town of Caffa in the Crimea was called the capital of the medieval slave trade, but an overland route to Caliphate of Córdoba took pagan and dualist Slavs from Kiev through Lviv and Prague.
(From 929 to 1031 the Caliphate of Córdoba (Arabic: خلافة قرطبة‎; trans. Khilāfat Qurṭuba was an Islamic kingdom that ruled Al-Andalus and part of North Africa from the city of Qurtuba.)

Between the 6th and 10th centuries AD, members of pagan Slavonic peoples were taken prisoner by the Khazars, Kypchaks and other steppe peoples and taken to the slave markets in Crimea. In addition, during the wars between the pagan Slavonic states and Christian states of Europe, many prisoners of war from both sides were sold as slaves. After the Muslim conquests of North Africa and most of the Iberian peninsula, the Islamic world became a huge importer of slaves from Eastern Europe. The trade routes were established between slave trade centres in the pagan Slavonic countries (for example Prague and Wolin) and Arab metropoles in the Muslim-controlled regions of the Iberian peninsula (Al-Andalus).

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe

Genoese and Venetians merchants in Crimea were involved in the slave trade with the Golden Horde. Between 1414 and 1423, at least 10,000 eastern European slaves were sold in Venice. Genoese organized the slave trade from the Crimea to Mamluk Egypt. In 1441, Haci I Giray declared independence from the Golden Horde and established the Crimean Khanate. For a long time, until the early 18th century, the khanate maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East.[ In a process called the "harvesting of the steppe", they enslaved many Slavic peasants.

[Shah-Jehan]

The town of Caffa in the Crimea was called the capital of the medieval slave trade, but an overland route to Caliphate of Córdoba took pagan and dualist Slavs from Kiev through Lviv and Prague.

Between the 6th and 10th centuries AD, members of pagan Slavonic peoples were taken prisoner by the Khazars, Kypchaks and other steppe peoples and taken to the slave markets in Crimea. In addition, during the wars between the pagan Slavonic states and Christian states of Europe, many prisoners of war from both sides were sold as slaves. After the Muslim conquests of North Africa and most of the Iberian peninsula, the Islamic world became a huge importer of slaves from Eastern Europe. The trade routes were established between slave trade centres in the pagan Slavonic countries (for example Prague and Wolin) and Arab metropoles in the Muslim-controlled regions of the Iberian peninsula (Al-Andalus). Slave trade between the Slavonic lands and the Orient was carried out by Vikings (see Rus' people), Iberian Jews (known as Radhanites) and others. Some Slavonic rules participated in the slave trade indirectly. For example, the converted Christian ruler Mojmír I of the Great Moravian Empire taxed the slave caravans that passed through his lands, providing an important source of revenue, if indirectly. This trade came to an end in the 10th century after the Christianisation of Slavic countries.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe
How would that score Western European?

[Fire Haired]

This actulley makes alot of sense to me. I made a thread click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?86428-Where-do-the-blonde-haired-kablye-of-north-africa-come-from) to see it. About the kablye people who live in the exact same areas as west euro is popular in nrth Africa. The Kablye are the second biggest berber ethic group berbers are one of the biggest ethnic groups in north africa. I mentioned how i heard a missionary in church say when he was there they though she was a kablye because he had white skin. She then went to were Kablye live which is in the Atlas mountains and said they were actulley pretty ale. Some Kablye sub groups have 18% blonde hair and the missonary said some have red hair or at least they are known for it. There is defintley some European dmixture in them. They are actulley very old Berbers and very tradtional there are no signs of recent european inter marriage and i doubt they get the more light hair and eyes features from Spanish and Portuguese or any europeans that roamed in the ancient meditreaen world like Italic's, Greeks, and Iyrllains.

So i realy have no idea were it could come from. There was a major migration out of Iberia 15,000ybp this 4,000 years after glaceres retreated in central and northern Europe so they spread mtdna H1,H3,V, and some subclades of U5b1 and they also went to North west Africa the highest amounts are found in the Atlas mountains. There is actulley a 12,000 year old mtDNA V sample from atlas mounatins so these migrations really did happen. Maybe there was a more light haired people in Iberia 15,000yb which went extinct but that theory sounds kind of crazy. I would guess that it was one major group of Europeans they inter maried who knows when or who. maybe if there are more dna studies on the we can find out.

[ButlerKing]

WOW.....

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/096/6/d/parure_kabyle_ii_by_adalheit-d60mlei.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Some look like this too...
http://kabyle.com/archives/IMG/jpg/defile_1.jpg

[Lábaru]

The answer.

1º in the unwritten history, there is some evidence of Ibera influence in North Africa, not the opposite, there is very little information but it is a possibility.

2º later in North Africa there were many European settlement of Greek and Roman origin.

3ºIn the V century around 50,000 Vandals of Germanic-Slavic origin were expelled from Iberia to North Africa, in fact "Al-Andalos/Andalus=The land of Vandalos/Andalos= Andalusia" because North Africans thought that those people came from Iberia.

4º during the Visigothic kingdom, parts of North Africa were colonized by Hispanic-Goths, in fact the Muslim invasion of Iberia was allied with the Goths faction of Don Julian, Goths residents on north africa, a fucking traitor.

5º In the X century around 70,000 Christians from the kingdom of Al-Andalus were expelled to North Africa because they rebelled.

6º In the XV -XVI century around 480.000 and 530.000 Muslims, mostly genetically European-Goth-Celtiberian/Hispanoroman from Aragon,Valencia, Andalusia and several parts of the current Spain were expelled from the Iberian Peninsula.

All this we must add tens of thousands of slaves of European origin in the harems.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I can't help but think most of you are retarded.

It's called sexual selection. Light hair indicates youth. Look at photos of yourselves now and when you were younger. Your hair gradually gets darker as you get older (if you're born with light hair; obviously your hair can't get any darker if you're born with black hair). Since light hair indicates youth and since youth means women have many years left to push out babies light hair in females is prized by the more affluent men. The more affluent men obviously had the means to support a family and so they had more children survive with... *drum roll* particular genes that allow for fair hair to pop up.

I should go on but at this point I want to sleep because I like to dream of a better world where none of you are allowed to have children and are my slaves. I don't like chores but chores need to be done.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Some look like this too...
http://kabyle.com/archives/IMG/jpg/defile_1.jpg

I would not bang any of these chicks.

Well, maybe the one on the left.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

WOW.....

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/096/6/d/parure_kabyle_ii_by_adalheit-d60mlei.jpg

I dislike transvestites.

[Artek]

WOW.....

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/096/6/d/parure_kabyle_ii_by_adalheit-d60mlei.jpg
Looks quite pretty, actually. Is she Kabyle?

Personally, I think that there are a few sources of "West-Euro" admixture in Morocco and Tunisia.
There were many movements across the strait of Gibraltar in prehistoric(proto-Berbers?) and more recent times(i.e. maritime and slave trade along with various other migrations in Roman Era- that's why we have such R1b-U152 in North Africa, mentioned deportation of Andalusion muslims between whom must have been some "native" Iberian converts etc. etc.).

It's not so easy to show just one event and say - whoah, that was responsible for introduction of "Western Euro admix.

[Empecinado]

In Metline, Tunisia, there are a bigger proportion of light features than in other parts of the country. Not surprising, most of the Moriscos deported from Spain settled there and most of them mixed with the local population.

http://tunisie-verte.com/Photos/JCF2008photos_04/JCF2008-metline3-(2).jpg

http://tunisie-verte.com/Photos/JCF2008photos_04/JCF2008-metline3.jpg

http://tunisie-verte.com/Photos/JCF2008photos_02/JCF2008metline-01.jpg

[Ibericus]

What's with the heavy west European admixture in Tunisia and Morocco? did they already had this component or was this brough in during the slavery.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uJ3wHmXSLm0/UFtAN2nsPJI/AAAAAAAAD0g/4sIVqH0icsE/s1600/MDLPatlantomed.jpg
That's actually Atlanto-Med component, not "Western European", and altough they are quite similar, the first one includes a lot of Mediterranean genes (it peaks also in Sardinians).

[Smeagol]

It's not European, and there were about 1,000,000 European slaves compared to about 14,000,000 black slaves, so barbary slavery did not make them more European. North Africans are a lot blacker than in ancient history.

[Wadaad]

It's not European, and there were about 1,000,000 European slaves compared to about 14,000,000 black slaves, so barbary slavery did not make them more European. North Africans are a lot blacker than in ancient history.

They're alot whiter too...

[Smeagol]

They're alot whiter too...

Nope, the white slaves had no affect on the population, because of how outnumbered they were by the blacks.

[Damião de Góis]

I don't think "moroccan Maddy" and her parents are too different from what north africans (or at least berbers) were centuries ago:

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/837958/thumbs/o-GIRL-570.jpg?1

[Wadaad]

Nope, the white slaves had no affect on the population, because of how outnumbered they were by the blacks.

North Africa has been settled by Europeans since the Roman era...

10,000+ Roman colonials were massacred in Sirte during the Jugurthine wars alone...then there were the Vandals...then there were the expulsions during the inquisition, and finally the Barbary pirates slave raids.

[Smeagol]

North Africa has been settled by Europeans since the Roman era...

10,000+ Roman colonials were massacred in Sirte during the Jugurthine wars alone...then there were the Vandals...then there were the expulsions during the inquisition, and finally the Barbary pirates slave raids.

And even then that was less than the massive amount of black slaves.
https://biosci-batzerlab.biology.lsu.edu/Publications/Comas%20et%20al.%202000%20Hum%20Genet.pdf

The mtDNA analysis has shown a limited gene flow from Europe to NW Africa that could be attributed to recent human movements.

[wvwvw]

WHEN EUROPEANS WERE SLAVES: RESEARCH SUGGESTS WHITE SLAVERY WAS MUCH MORE COMMON THAN PREVIOUSLY BELIEVED

COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.

Robert Davis
In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).


“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.

Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.

The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.

Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.

The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.

Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.

“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.

While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa.”
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm

[glass]

expelled white muslims + enslaved white women in harems = euro admix

basically same for all other brown people at europe outskirts

[The King, I am]

Um their European admixture comes from mixing with the Romans, Greeks, Vandals, Sami, and the old Turks.
They also mixed with the Phoenicians who were J2, it was first being introduced to Europe during that time.

And it isn't just Morocco and Tunisia it's also Algeria and Lebanon.

Berbers are the ones who still carry the most of this admixture.

Original Berbers were white and they carried e1b1b.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It's always been there.

[The King, I am]

If that were true then you recognize that Iberians thousands and thousands of years ago carried the e1b1b haplogroup?

[McCauley]

Um their European admixture comes from mixing with the Romans, Greeks, Vandals, Sami, and the old Turks.
They also mixed with the Phoenicians who were J2, it was first being introduced to Europe during that time.

And it isn't just Morocco and Tunisia it's also Algeria and Lebanon.

Berbers are the ones who still carry the most of this admixture.

Original Berbers were white and they carried e1b1b.

Are you retarded? Why would *Sami* have any genetic impact in *North Africa*.

Most retarded statement I have seen on this site yet.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

They do. It's because that's what north africa used to be like 15k+ years ago.


If that were true then you recognize that Iberians thousands and thousands of years ago carried the e1b1b haplogroup?

No one said everything that's there always has been.

[Sidi Atlas]

What's with the heavy west European admixture in Tunisia and Morocco? did they already had this component or was this brough in during the slavery.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uJ3wHmXSLm0/UFtAN2nsPJI/AAAAAAAAD0g/4sIVqH0icsE/s1600/MDLPatlantomed.jpg

Would it not be more interesting to explain what the different shades on the map represent?

If it really represents European admixture, than the Maghreb countries are more European than Norway and Ukraine? :picard1:

[Mehmet]

The map is actually weird. :) Northern Algeria seems more European than both Norway and Finland.

[Lábaru]

European Admixture in North Africa
http://s14.postimg.org/wwxp8srjl/euroadmix_png.jpg

[Rudel]

North Africa has been settled by Europeans since the Roman era...

10,000+ Roman colonials were massacred in Sirte during the Jugurthine wars alone...then there were the Vandals...then there were the expulsions during the inquisition, and finally the Barbary pirates slave raids.
For some reason everyone seems to forget that not so long ago Algeria was a French colony (colonized by French people with important input from all over Europe, in particular Italy and Spain plus all the local French-speaking Jews that were given French citizenship).
At the end of the war there were around 1 million Europeans in Algeria (including the Jews), of that million 50 000 staid in Algeria, and 260 000 in Tunisia (180 000 French, the rest Italians). Can't say for Morocco.


WHEN EUROPEANS WERE SLAVES: RESEARCH SUGGESTS WHITE SLAVERY WAS MUCH MORE COMMON THAN PREVIOUSLY BELIEVED
Well, during Roman times the vast majority of the population was made of slaves, and slavery was progressively abolished by the Church (council of Lyon in 524 forbidding the enslavement of freemen and general interdiction to enslave Christians) and the bishops when they could, but it was long supported by civil institutions (Charlemagne himself was prone to make slaves out of pagans, but slavery really started to get out of fashion during his time) and economic ones (Jewish merchants). It was legally abolished only during the XIth century here but wasn't elsewhere. The number of slaves in Catalonia and Italy actually bumped between the XIIIth and XVth centuries.

Bottom line is : we probably all have a shitload of slave blood, and without the Muslims having to do anything with it.
Though the Muslims weren't really nice chaps, they burnt my own city thrice and enslaved its population twice during the time they had a base in the Massif des Maures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraxinet) (they did the same all around the region).

[WOOHP]

Would it not be more interesting to explain what the different shades on the map represent?

If it really represents European admixture, than the Maghreb countries are more European than Norway and Ukraine? :picard1:

No. It's not European admixture. It's Western and West Med put together in one.