Are Europeans in Denial of the EU?

[Sol Invictus]

Opinons on this tyrannical system?

[Loki]

The majority of people in the UK are Euroskeptic and would vote "no" if we had a chance. That is why we won't be given one. "Democracy" is only used when it works for the masters.

[Nationalitist]

Being Euroskeptic is popular nowadays anyway. Euroskeptic = zeropean = supporter of EU.

In my country, rightists mostly support EU, most "Euroskeptics" (meaning that they don't openly praise EU) come from the left, though more and more leftists are now abandoning Yugo-nostalgia (Yugoslav version of Zeropeanism) and crypto-communism.

Rightists and leftiests make up less than 50% of population so I can say that most people don't like EU, but then again, back in 2004, if I remember correctly 90%+/- of voters voted for EU.

[Freomæg]

Of course the average European doesn't know what the EU entails. Hell, I've kept an eye on the thing and I'm hardly any wiser. It is assumed that our 'leaders' will analyse the EU Constitution and judge whether it is in the best interests of the country or not. The people still believe that their governments act in the best interests of the people's freedom therefore they blindly trust Politicians to make a decision on the EU on their behalf.

The wealthiest countries (traditionally, not currently) are generally the ones who have been refused a referendum because the EU overlords know that these are the nations most likely to vote 'NO'. Poorer countries, who have more to gain from the Union, have been given a vote. In this way, the EU can in future claim that countries were given a say - albeit only a handful.

www.eutruth.org.uk (http://www.eutruth.org.uk/)

[Eldritch]

Generally, no, because the EU won't tell them.

[Liffrea]

Denial? Perhaps, lack of interest? More probable.

We need to understand what keeps the average man awake at night and I’m pretty certain it isn’t the EU or Lisbon. What most people worry about is money, what most people are worrying about at the moment is the job that provides their income a man needs food, water, a roof, most men are content with that and a bit of distraction. There was a lot of uproar over Maastricht, now nobody even mentions it, times were good, people adapt and forget and, when the chips are down, what does Lisbon mean to you or me? Seriously, leave idealism about freedom aside for one moment and think about it. What difference will it actually make to your life? I oppose it on idealist grounds but most men aren’t idealists. Only a tiny minority have an actual stake in the existence of a state. It’s the 10/80/10 rule of socio-politics, 10% support a system the way it is, 10% oppose it, 80% generally don’t care and go with the flow. The 10% who support the EU have the cards, the 10% who don’t support it have no chips let alone a hand to play.

It’s also important to understand how government has operated in the UK. The average Briton has had practically zero say in the running of this country in any age, it’s always (as all states truly are) been an oligarchy, yet on the other hand, relative to other European states, the average Briton has had greater freedoms. Our state hasn’t been overly oppressive but you will be surprised what a man will tolerate for bread and water. The politicians know this as well as anyone else does. We walk past CCTV cameras a dozen times a day, we’re monitored, recorded and analysed, we have grown used to it, that’s what people do, I don’t like it but people/sheeple has a lot of truth to it. You want a man to riot or fight? Stop him from eating, it really is that easy, as long as most men eat and are reasonably comfortable they don’t give a shit for idealists, that doesn’t concern most men.

Of course the majority of opinion polls suggest that the British public is Eurosceptic, I can point to hundreds of letters a week from someone or other complaining about the loss of freedom, CCTV, Lisbon, immigration etc. None of that amounts to a hill of beans in real terms, they complain just as vigorously about Alex Ferguson, Wayne Rooney, X Factor or Coronation Street. The political establishment, media and business (the 10% in favour), by and large, say the EU is good for the economy, in many ways they are probably wrong, but who of any consequence is arguing otherwise? Who is there with any real power and influence to offer another way? Nobody. The one chance those who oppose the EU have is if the economy grows worse, considerably worse, I don’t think it will because I don’t believe this is a genuine “melt down” but if it does those pissing against the wind might find they have more listeners.

[ikki]

the eu constitution isnt there to supplement, but to replace any and all of the nations old existing constitution. Therefore the decision to do so with a single majority is illegal!

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by ikki
Therefore the decision to do so with a single majority is illegal!

Depends on the state, the UK Parliament has no “constitution” as such by law it acts as the sole arbitrator of process in the UK. Parliament isn’t legally required to give the British public a referendum on anything at all, we elect Member’s of Parliament to represent a constituency but beyond that election they aren’t really accountable.

The Labour Party ratified Lisbon last year, they promised a referendum on Lisbon then reneged by claiming that it was a different document to the former proposed EU constitution, in many ways it is but most analysts have claimed that both the constitution and the Lisbon Treaty are substantially the same in areas that matter. What Labour did was immoral but it wasn’t illegal and those who have tried to take the matter to court have failed precisely because, technically, Labour hasn’t done anything wrong.

Would a referendum have made a difference? The Irish rejected it once but when they got concessions on the matters that concerned them they accepted the treaty, I believe they are fools for doing so and have been conned into believing that the EU are their best hope for their ailing economy, but what I think doesn’t count.

[Comte Arnau]

I can understand why so many people are against the EU. I may not be a Euro-enthusiast, but I'm not in denial either. After all, it was born out of a desire of cooperation after wars, even if the interests were practical ones, and the fact is that there hasn't been any war within its borders for more than half a century, and that is highly significative from a historical point of view, even if people find this fact unimportant. The coming of the euro is also another important factor.

It is still a Europe of the states, and not of the peoples, anyway.

And well, I don't know if this makes me a chauvinist, but I love this continent.

[Anthropos]

Many people dislike the EU for various reasons, but not even the majority of those who dislike it know what it is really about, no. That has been demonstrated several times in referendums where a no became a yes after only a short time. Mere neophobia does not qualify as knowledge.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Ibex
and the fact is that there hasn't been any war within its borders for more than half a century, and that is highly significative from a historical point of view, even if people find this fact unimportant.

I don’t personally find it unimportant, I just don’t see it as that important (Europe’s been at relative peace for longer periods in it’s history) nor do I see it as thanks to the EU. The EU (militarily) is impotent. After WW2 European states de-militarised quickly, true because they were sick of conflict, more so because they abdicated responsibility for their defence to the USA. Without the American umbrella it is tempting to wonder just how long it would have taken Soviet forces to reach Trafalgar Square….


The coming of the euro is also another important factor.

Maybe.


It is still a Europe of the states, and not of the peoples, anyway.

Well yes, the EU will never effectively destroy ethnic identity, but that’s not really the issue is it? I’m not worried about losing my identity, I am interested in how I am governed, who I pay my taxes to and what for. I’m an advocate of devolved government to as greater degree possible, it’s easier to cut people’s balls off…


And well, I don't know if this makes me a chauvinist, but I love this continent.

A healthy attitude.:)

[007]

After all, it was born out of a desire of cooperation after wars,

That's just marketing. It's always been intended as a United States of Europe.

[Comte Arnau]

Well yes, the EU will never effectively destroy ethnic identity, but that’s not really the issue is it? I’m not worried about losing my identity, I am interested in how I am governed, who I pay my taxes to and what for.

Well, isn't that appliable to state governments too?


I’m an advocate of devolved government to as greater degree possible, it’s easier to cut people’s balls off…

I'm also an advocate of as little and as local a government as possible. But macrostructures can be useful for a number of reasons, and I consider the Schengen Area and the euro as positive examples in this regard.


That's just marketing. It's always been intended as a United States of Europe.

I don't think so, even if some may have conceived it that way. It can never be, and even if called like that, the structure of it will always be different for many reasons. The Europen Union has no real precedent, therefore it can't be compared. And the fact that other areas want to imitate it (African Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union//), UNASUR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNASUR), the Gulf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperation_Council_for_the_Arab_States_of_the_Gul f)) say a lot about it.

[Matritensis]

The coming of the euro is also another important factor.

I'm of the same opinion,traveling between European countries has never been this easy.The euro is definitely an improvement.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Ibex
Well, isn't that appliable to state governments too?

Of course, personally I have no allegiance to any government or state. I care not a jot for the United Kingdom, what I do care about is the effect of a political establishment on my life. If the EU offered me a better deal than the UK I would be a Europhile over night (politics isn’t my identity). I have nothing to gain from supporting the continuation of the British state but I suspect I have a fair bit to lose if the far more distant EU starts to impact even more on my life. I haven’t liked what I have seen so far, I can only envisage it being a good deal worse.


I'm also an advocate of as little and as local a government as possible. But macrostructures can be useful for a number of reasons, and I consider the Schengen Area and the euro as positive examples in this regard.

In fantasy land the state should serve the interests of the people. In reality it all comes down to how much you're prepared to bend....

[SwordoftheVistula]

The Euro certainly does make it easier for us tourists, but it also hampers the ability to make monetary policy decisions, as some countries may desire an inflationary/low interest rates policy and others may desire the opposite.

[Anthropos]

The Euro certainly does make it easier for us tourists, but it also hampers the ability to make monetary policy decisions, as some countries may desire an inflationary/low interest rates policy and others may desire the opposite.

... or just the power to handle these things and not leave it up to a bank, the real purposes of which we may only be able to take guesses about.