Theory: blonde hair origin Paleolithic Europe and possible main hair color of Euro's over 10,000ybp

[Fire Haired]

http://screencrave.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/YearOneALP10-5-09.jpghttp://www.lascaux-expo.fr/fileadmin/templates/img/the_exhibition/module8/lascaux-expo-module-8-02.jpghttp://static8.bigstockphoto.com/thumbs/1/7/3/small2/37125298.jpg

Fair hair map of Europe
http://shrani.si/f/A/12M/lVbi88Z/europe-hair0223--light-h.png
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/274/c/2/europe_blonde_hair_map_by_arminius1871-d4bi138.jpg
http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/blond_hair_map1.jpg
There is no doubt the first Humans had all black hair. Then Brown hair developed in early Caucasian in the mid east 60,000-80,000ybp. I am not saying Europe from 10,000-55,000ybp was mainly blonde haired. What i am saying is i think blonde defintley developed in Paleolithic Europe well over 20,000ybp and was very popular or the main hair color of Europeans before farming spread so over 10,000ybp but i dont know how long. I have many reasons. For one thing blonde hair is spread out in all of Europe and is not unique to any language family or culture. Germanic's, Uracil's, Baltic and Slavic all have alot somtimes mainly fair hair. As if blonde hair was popular before any of those language families and ethnic groups formed so for Germanic's(over 4,000ybp), Urailic(6,000-8,000ybp), Balto Slavs(5,000ybp).

Another big reason is that every aust dna test i have looked at calls their unqiqe European group which is from Paleolithic Europe they call it either northeast European, Atlantic Baltic, or North Euro. I have seen maps of how they are distributed cant find them now but i remember comparing it to many diff fair hair maps of Europe. They are very similar blonde hair is the main hair color over 60% in the Atlantic Baltic. North Euro in the globe13 test decreases from over 65% to under 40% from Ukraine to Romania blonde hair decreases from about 50% to 30%. The only area were it did not connect is central France were fair hair is is about 15-20% and north Euro is around 40-50% not that much diff from their border to Germany 59% north Euro and about 40-50% fair hair.


I defintley think there is a connection with Paleolithic European aust groups and distributions of blonde hair or just lightish brown hair which really is a combination of blonde and brown hair either way it has blonde genes in it. Click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91491-Origin-and-History-of-red-hair) i explain how red hair has obvious connections with the spread of Germanic and Italo Celtic languages and R1b L51-l11 in bronze-iron age west Europe and red hair seems to have a origin in Russia 12,000-20,000ybp well at least Russia was the first place it constintley popped up at over 1%. But with blonde hair it shows no connection with the spread of any ethnic groups and language families or any type of Y DNA haplogroup.

In my opinion there is no doubt that blonde hair in all of Europe is from the pre Neolithic hunter gathers who lived in those areas. Blonde hair most likely originated in Paleolithic Europeans and probably became very very popular. I think once they can start getting pigmentation genes from Paleolithic Europeans that blonde hair will defintley pop up.

There are not any colored paintgs in Europe that are over 10,000 years old. But there are 100's and 100's of statues some are 35,000 years old but non in color. I think possible 15,000 year old Magdolnian carvings in western France may be showing hair color. Because some of the peopl's hair has many scratchs as if they are showing brown hair while other dont and it looks like they could be showing blonde hair. I know many people do that today to show blonde hair in drawings.
http://www.donsmaps.com/images3/boysmarche.gifhttps://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUioIlE-VcT6WlUj5fS86EhbilT84-RQiUk8cCqPy50QmquRF_http://www.donsmaps.com/images3/striatedface.gifhttp://geolines.ru/netcat_files/18/10/h_79100df52876fa1715b6ac869c20827f

[Shah-Jehan]

Do you write these stuff yourself?:D

[Krampus]

Do you write these stuff yourself?:D

kinda

[Fire Haired]

Do you write these stuff yourself?:D

yep

[rashka]

lol at how "they" decided to make all of Serbia in the 10 to 20% range, see how the line goes nicely all around... Who created that http://fs02.androidpit.info/aico/x67/7008067-1348797499665.png map?

[d3cimat3d]

What i am saying is i think blonde defintley developed in Paleolithic Europe well over 20,000ybp and was very popular or the main hair color of Europeans before farming spread so over 10,000ybp but i dont know how long. I have many reasons.

Blonde hair AND blue eyes originated in either Mesopotamia or the Levant. A good proof of this is Assyrians seem to lack the north European genetic component almost completely. In Dodecad K12a, they have 1.8% of it, and in Dodecad K12b, they have 0.9% of the same component. Assyrians are only outdone by Iraqi Jews, who carry 0% of this northern European component. Various analyses in Eurogenes have corroborated the low northern European component Assyrians show in Dodecad. Here's the Dodecad scores for the northern European component:

Europeans:
Lithuanian_D: 73.7%
Finnish_D: 72.3%
Russian_D: 64.2%
Polish_D: 61.1%
Swedish_D: 57.2%
Norwegian_D: 55.2%

non-Europeans:
Indian_D: 7.7%
Iranian_D: 7.3%
Kurd_D: 6.6%
Armenian_D: 4.6%
Lebanese: 3%
Syrians: 2.8%
Assyrian_D: 1.8%
Iraqi_Jews: 0.1%
Iranian_Jews: 0%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwV mc#gid=0

Europeans:
Lithuanians: 77.1%
Finnish_D: 75.5%
Lithuanian_D: 73.7%
Russian_D: 66.4%
Polish_D 63.3%
Swedish_D: 56.8%
Norwegian_D: 54.7%

non-Europeans:
Kurds_Y: 6.7%
Iranian_D 6%
Kurd_D: 5.7%
Indian_D: 4.8%
Iranians: 4.2%
Armenians: 4.5%
Lebanese: 3.7%
Armenian_15_Y: 3.4%
Armenian_D: 3%
Syrians: 2.7%
Assyrian_D: 0.9%
Iranian_Jews: 0%
Iraqi_Jews: 0%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

Yet, in spite of their low northern European component, Assyrians have a fair share of ethnic Assyrian individuals with light hair (both blond and red hair, the last of which is very common amongst Assyrians for some odd reason), blue and green eyes, and light skin. I'm not saying Assyrians with such light pigmentation represent the majority of Assyrians, but they do exist and they are far more than 1-2% of all Assyrians. I don't have any accurate statistics, but the overwhelming majority of the 30 or so Assyrians tested on 23andMe, are heterozygous for the blue eye genotype, and there are about as many homozygous blue eyed Assyrians as there are homozygous brown eyed Assyrians on 23andMe.

[Fire Haired]

Thanks for all of the info on the K12a and K12b. Click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91397-Supposedly-Euro-light-skin-genes-are-popular-in-all-Caucasins-and-exists-in-about-all-Humans) it is about how the genes that are suppose to cause pale skin in Europeans are just about as popular in mid easterns and north Africans. also that there are pale skinned mid eastesn just like europeans of course there are less but it shows the paleness of europeans did not orignate in europe t just became more popular maybe even before they migrated to europe. When u consider very pale skinned mid eastern ethnic groups like Samartiens (https://www.google.com/search?q=samaritans&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc,pv.xjs.s.en_US.M4-36_38X9A.O&biw=1024&bih=667&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=X2YhUpS6N-u1sATX7oDIDg), Druze (https://www.google.com/search?q=samaritans&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc,pv.xjs.s.en_US.M4-36_38X9A.O&biw=1024&bih=667&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=X2YhUpS6N-u1sATX7oDIDg#hl=en&q=druze&tbm=isch&um=1), and Geograins (https://www.google.com/search?q=samaritans&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc,pv.xjs.s.en_US.M4-36_38X9A.O&biw=1024&bih=667&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=X2YhUpS6N-u1sATX7oDIDg#hl=en&q=georgians&spell=1&tbm=isch&um=1).

click here (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/herc2-haplotypes-phylogeny-and.html) according to this. The percentages of the ancestral blue eye alle and derived is different in Europeans and mid easterns. Which in my opinion means they dont get their blue eye genes from European inter marriage. The only i saw close to Europeans percentages are Kalash in Pakistan Who are Indo Iranian speakers and Indo Iranian languges were spread by Europeans from Russia click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90089-Where-did-proto-Indo-Iranian-speakers-ancestry-orignate). So it seems the mid east might be the source of all European pale genes for some reason maybe climate it became more popular in Europeans ancestors. I dont know about yellow blonde hair though i doubt that exists in the mid east unless from Indo iranian speakers. There are some Samartien redheads click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91491-Origin-and-ancient-History-of-red-hair) in in globe13 test had no North Euro they were typical southwest asians. So red hair may have not originated in Europe.

Blonde hair and red hair show no connections at all in their distribution. It seems they both came from 100% brown and black haired people.So the blonde and red hair in Assyrians i think is from Indo Iranian inter marriage or i guess may be because they orignated in the mid east. But orignalley the blonde hair and red hair were separate. I dont really know i think blond hair defintley existed in Paloethic Europe probably as popular as today 10,000-20,000ybp. When Europeans ancestors arrived in Europe 30,000-60,000ybp(or a mix of different people that migrated to Europe) they would have been probably just like Assyrians in pigmentation. How long did they stay like that is hard to figure out. and it would take even more time for blonde hair to become popular. I cant wait till they actulley get Y DNA, aust dna, pigmentation genes and all kinds of other DNA from Paleolithic Europeans.

[tamilgangster]

Blond hair, occurs in many places independently, it is found among melenesians, hmongs, and among tribes in pakistan such as nuristanis, hunzas and kalash. The blonde hair could have possibly emerged via mixing with other nonhuman hominids such as neanderthals and denisnovans.

[Äike]

Upper Paleolithic Europeans were very fair compared to the Indo-European newcomers.

"Surprisingly" the blondest people in the world, Estonians and Finns, are genetically the most Upper Paleolithic people in Europe, followed by the Swedes. Finnic people are the Upper Paleolithic survivors in Northern-Europe.

Indo-European languages didn't survive in our region because Estonia and Finland were and are the 2 most boggiest countries in the world, making farming quite difficult, especially for neolithic farmers.

[Styrian Mujo]

Upper Paleolithic Europeans were very fair compared to the Indo-European newcomers.

"Surprisingly" the blondest people in the world, Estonians and Finns, are genetically the most Upper Paleolithic people in Europe, followed by the Swedes. Finnic people are the Upper Paleolithic survivors in Northern-Europe.

Indo-European languages didn't survive in our region because Estonia and Finland were and are the 2 most boggiest countries in the world, making farming quite difficult, especially for neolithic farmers.
Do you think indo-europeans were farmers?

[Äike]

Do you think indo-europeans were farmers?

The spread of agriculture and IE languages goes hand-in-hand.

[Styrian Mujo]

The spread of agriculture and IE languages goes hand-in-hand.
I think you being a uralic speaker and trying to prove indo-europeans are swarthy goes hand in hand:)

[Äike]

I think you being a uralic speaker and trying to prove indo-europeans are swarthy goes hand in hand:)

I'm a Finnic person.

Besides, you saying that I'm Uralic is the same as me saying that every Indo-European from Iceland to India has an agenda against Finns.

Grow a brain for yourself. Indo-Europeans are Neolithic newcomers to Europe who assimilated the native UP population. The only place where the native Upper Paleolithic population has been mostly preserved is Northern-Europe.

Or what are you trying to say, that Indo-Europeans brought blond hair to Europe 5000 years ago? :rotfl

[Styrian Mujo]

I'm a Finnic person.

Besides, you saying that I'm Uralic is the same as me saying that every Indo-European from Iceland to India has an agenda against Finns.

Grow a brain for yourself. Indo-Europeans are Neolithic newcomers to Europe who assimilated the native UP population. The only place where the native Upper Paleolithic population has been mostly preserved is Northern-Europe.
What if IE were paleolithic and spread from the east.

Or what are you trying to say, that Indo-Europeans brought blond hair to Europe 5000 years ago? :rotfl
No I think IE were paleolithic who mixed with neolithic farmers as they expanded.

[Vlach]

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/blond_hair_map1.jpg

This map is so stupid, in Romania the most blonde hairs are from Moldova.

[Loki]

Very good summary Fire Haired.

I think it's true that's the blondest people are in Western Finland. Also the lightest eyes. When I see them here in England they look completely distinctive. No English person looks like them.

[Smaug]

Upper Paleolithic Europeans were very fair compared to the Indo-European newcomers.

"Surprisingly" the blondest people in the world, Estonians and Finns, are genetically the most Upper Paleolithic people in Europe, followed by the Swedes. Finnic people are the Upper Paleolithic survivors in Northern-Europe.

Indo-European languages didn't survive in our region because Estonia and Finland were and are the 2 most boggiest countries in the world, making farming quite difficult, especially for neolithic farmers.

?

[Harkonnen]

Blonde hair AND blue eyes originated in either Mesopotamia or the Levant. A good proof of this is Assyrians seem to lack the north European genetic component almost completely. In Dodecad K12a, they have 1.8% of it, and in Dodecad K12b, they have 0.9% of the same component. Assyrians are only outdone by Iraqi Jews, who carry 0% of this northern European component. Various analyses in Eurogenes have corroborated the low northern European component Assyrians show in Dodecad. Here's the Dodecad scores for the northern European component:

Europeans:
Lithuanian_D: 73.7%
Finnish_D: 72.3%
Russian_D: 64.2%
Polish_D: 61.1%
Swedish_D: 57.2%
Norwegian_D: 55.2%

non-Europeans:
Indian_D: 7.7%
Iranian_D: 7.3%
Kurd_D: 6.6%
Armenian_D: 4.6%
Lebanese: 3%
Syrians: 2.8%
Assyrian_D: 1.8%
Iraqi_Jews: 0.1%
Iranian_Jews: 0%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwV mc#gid=0

Europeans:
Lithuanians: 77.1%
Finnish_D: 75.5%
Lithuanian_D: 73.7%
Russian_D: 66.4%
Polish_D 63.3%
Swedish_D: 56.8%
Norwegian_D: 54.7%

non-Europeans:
Kurds_Y: 6.7%
Iranian_D 6%
Kurd_D: 5.7%
Indian_D: 4.8%
Iranians: 4.2%
Armenians: 4.5%
Lebanese: 3.7%
Armenian_15_Y: 3.4%
Armenian_D: 3%
Syrians: 2.7%
Assyrian_D: 0.9%
Iranian_Jews: 0%
Iraqi_Jews: 0%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

Yet, in spite of their low northern European component, Assyrians have a fair share of ethnic Assyrian individuals with light hair (both blond and red hair, the last of which is very common amongst Assyrians for some odd reason), blue and green eyes, and light skin. I'm not saying Assyrians with such light pigmentation represent the majority of Assyrians, but they do exist and they are far more than 1-2% of all Assyrians. I don't have any accurate statistics, but the overwhelming majority of the 30 or so Assyrians tested on 23andMe, are heterozygous for the blue eye genotype, and there are about as many homozygous blue eyed Assyrians as there are homozygous brown eyed Assyrians on 23andMe.

This is nonsense, you don't need to have the north euro component for light eyes. You only need the mutation for light eyes to enter and then start spreading in a population. So let's say say some mixed euro-chinese start to spread this mutation among Chinese. Among time their Euro autosomal component would diminish to nonexistant whilst in right conditions and all kinda selections percentage of blue could rise to quite high amounts.

Of course by this same logic it is indeed possible that the blue eye mutation originated in Levant, but just didn't catch flame there, so to say. It is just that you can not make any claims either way using this reasoning. You could just as well claim that it originated among Polynesians or Pygmies.

[Peikko]

lol at how "they" decided to make all of Serbia in the 10 to 20% range, see how the line goes nicely all around... Who created that http://fs02.androidpit.info/aico/x67/7008067-1348797499665.png map?
The lines follow political borders, because that's how all the studies behind them were done. The authors of these maps probably didn't get any more locally specified data, probably just studies, which measured the blond hair in Serbia as a whole.

[Peyrol]

These maps are senseless.
Apulia (deep southern Italy) more blonde than South Tyrol or east Lombardy? Lollolollololololo...xD

[Peikko]

I don't know much about genetics, it's not really my line of academia, but I have a theory, that blond hair was spread mainly by females, since blond women are seen as more attractive than brunettes. Usually dark men are also seen as more attractive, than blond men (George Clooney etc.). I was jelly to my father when I was a kid. Despite the blond hair, I still turned out very handsome, so I guess no harm done.

[Styrian Mujo]

I don't know much about genetics, it's not really my line of academia, but I have a theory, that blond hair was spread mainly by females, since blond women are seen as more attractive than brunettes. Usually dark men are also seen as more attractive, than blond men (George Clooney etc.). I was jelly to my father when I was a kid. Despite the blond hair, I still turned out very handsome, so I guess no harm done.
Thats what we were thaught in school actually.

[Harkonnen]

burn motherfuckers burn

[Proctor]

This theory sounds pretty convincing what I'm wondering now is how a pale skin/ black hair combo came about in Euro populations and where that originated, did that arrive with the indo-european invaders?

[Artek]

You are right, fire haired. Light hair is, basing on it's distribution, most likely preceding any culture as we now it today, even in "proto" forms. So it must have been already spread mtDNA-wise(of course with connection to certain autosomal components) and selected in some regions later, maybe.

I doubt that UP's from 50-30 thousands years ago were light haired anyway(evidence we have is on the contrary) but the mutation or several convergent mutations must've had emerged more likely in period between 30 and 10-15 thousands years BC. The timeframe I suggest is not rigid, of course. I just give it a sufficient time to spread with Mesolithic cultures and then re-emerge with the proto-Indo-Europeans and Indo-Europeans who had(as we know) at least partial Mesolithic background. I'm open to any comments on my post.

[Harkonnen]

I will quote Germanic Herrenmenssen Wittgenstein, though he probably was a Jew like all of them

7. Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

It is remarkable how it is always the complete retards who are the most ready to give their their most definite answers about subjects they know nothing of. Even though you would sort of expect that if one does not know he remains silent.

This is my honest opinion of this forum.

[jmls]

So Lombards, South tyrol, Piedmontese etc. are less blond than Pugliesi wogs according to the map?
BITCH PLEASE!

[Loki]

I will quote Germanic Herrenmenssen Wittgenstein, though he probably was a Jew like all of them

7. Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

It is remarkable how it is always the complete retards who are the most ready to give their their most definite answers about subjects they know nothing of. Even though you would sort of expect that if one does not know he remains silent.

This is my honest opinion of this forum.

You seem to be the only retard in this thread.

[Loki]

blond women are seen as more attractive than brunettes.

Very true.

You know, at the doctor yesterday I saw a very blond woman with very light eyes. I knew she wasn't English. So I asked her, and she was from Finland. Really pretty.

[Pure ja]

Do you think indo-europeans were farmers?

You can't raise cattle in a swamp either.

[Pure ja]

I suppose pale skin and fair hair could have had some input from neandertals.

But I believe the selection for blonde hair is a development that took place at the shores of the bay of Bothnia during the holocene climate maximum in which summers were warmer than today and thus winter and snow arrived late. Bay of Bothnia is anyway the northernmost region at sea-level in the world under the arctic circle with relatively short snow period. Less snow - less light in autumn. At sealevel - less light when compared to mountainous regions. At coastal areas, near a warm sea or lake - less snow. Blond hair was more important for children and women because men used to hunt at sea which provided them more light/tan. And indeed, many men used to have lighter hair when young.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PXKcqYsMPo

[Stimpy]

I've noticed that the people who have the highest amount of blonde hair have very low amounts of red hair, they also often have very strong, nonsensitive skin that tans very easily and has no red/pinkish undertone. The opposite of red-heads. Maybe this says something about a slightly different origin.

[Balmung]

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/blond_hair_map1.jpg

This map is so stupid, in Romania the most blonde hairs are from Moldova.

Why does everyone read the map as blonde? it says light.....there are more light hair colors than blonde.


I don't know much about genetics, it's not really my line of academia, but I have a theory, that blond hair was spread mainly by females, since blond women are seen as more attractive than brunettes. Usually dark men are also seen as more attractive, than blond men (George Clooney etc.). I was jelly to my father when I was a kid. Despite the blond hair, I still turned out very handsome, so I guess no harm done.

Yes but people tend to read into that a little much. It usually means someone with dark hair not necessarily dark or swarthy features as Brad Pitt has dark blonde/dark brown hair but is not swarthy in the least yet he is often the benchmark for all males. However it seems to be the complete opposite when it comes to eye color. Blue eyes are preferred generally in both genders.

[Fire Haired]

I've noticed that the people who have the highest amount of blonde hair have very low amounts of red hair, they also often have very strong, nonsensitive skin that tans very easily and has no red/pinkish undertone. The opposite of red-heads. Maybe this says something about a slightly different origin.

The distribution of red hair and blonde hair(or just light/fair) is not connected at all. More blonde hair doesn't always mean more red hair. I have noticed the same in tanning with blondes and redheads. Blondes and redheads almost always have light colored eyes and never have olive-brown skin. It is a fact that blonde hair is paler pigmented than brown and red more than blonde. All light colored eyes and hair are very exclusive to Europe. The origin of European paleness overall is still kind of a mystery. Originally in my opinion the first humans had black skin(like modern Oceania and Sub Saharan Africans) early west Eurasians would have probably been pigmented like modern west Asians and north Africans.

Since fair hair and eyes tend to be more popular the more pre Neolithic European ancestry a population has. I think dominate pale skin, high amount of light colored hair and eyes originated in pre Neolithic Europe in the Mesolithic and Upper Paleolithic ages. 7,000 year old Mesolithic hunter gatherer from northern Spain named La Brana-1 had blue eyes so already that hypothesis seems pretty likely. It probably became popular through natural selection I have heard many say it was sexual selection especially for females. The Autosomally mainly "Meditreaen" like farmers that spread acroos Europe may have also been pale-olive skinned though and with almost all dark hair and eyes. Because 5,300ybp farmer Otzi had fair skin, brown hair and eyes. So the origin of pale skin in Europeans might be older, from before their ancestors arrived in Europe.

There are some examples in west Asia, north Africa, and central Asia of European like paleness, some can definitely be explained with European mixing and some maybe not.

The red and blonde hair and light eyes in Indo Iranian speaking ethnic groups, central asia, and Uyghur is an example that can probably all be explained as European admixture. Indo Iranian(used to take up much of central Asia and Siberia) and Tocharian languages(once were in western china) ancestral language forms came from Yamna culture in far eastern Europe. Pigmentation genes from early Indo Iranian speakers in the bronze age and later ones in the iron age show they had majority blonde hair and light eyes. There is also a 3,000 year old mummy known as Cherchen man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherchen_Man)from western China he his hair was "reddish brown flecked with grey", also there is art depicting Tocharian's oftenly with blonde or red hair and that was the description given by Chinese(heard it on a documentary). The Greek historian Herodotus said a Scythian(Indo Iranian) tribe named the Budni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini) from modern day central Ukraine "have all deep blue eyes, and bright red hair"(Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians)).

Examples that are hard to explain as European admixture are in northwest African Berbers, Samaritans, and other non Indo Iranian west Asians. The Kablye I heard by people who visited Morocco and from the internet are known for pale skin, blonde and red hair, and light colored eyes. I don't see how it could come from modern Iberians or any other people in southern Europe. It is probably actually European admixture but it is mystery who and when. From a few news websites is aw pictures of Samaritans during Passover I was surprised by how pale many were there was a good amount with blue eyes and some had red hair(one was for sure the others not). In autosomal DNA they show no obvious traces of any European ancestry and in globe13 700 were tested(there are less than 1,000). There are other examples of European like paleness in west Asia and north Africa. The genes associated with European pale skin also exist in west Asians at usually around the same frequencies. In autosomal DNA Europeans, north Africans, and west Asians are in the same family. You find the same story in mtDNA and Y DNA so an explanation could just be close blood relation with Europeans.

[Jusarius]

I suppose pale skin and fair hair could have had some input from neandertals.

But I believe the selection for blonde hair is a development that took place at the shores of the bay of Bothnia during the holocene climate maximum in which summers were warmer than today and thus winter and snow arrived late. Bay of Bothnia is anyway the northernmost region at sea-level in the world under the arctic circle with relatively short snow period. Less snow - less light in autumn. At sealevel - less light when compared to mountainous regions. At coastal areas, near a warm sea or lake - less snow. Blond hair was more important for children and women because men used to hunt at sea which provided them more light/tan. And indeed, many men used to have lighter hair when young. Hair color affects how much your skin gets UVB/UVA? Seriously speaking, just as eye color, mutations that lead to fair hair color have become prevalent in some old (paleolithic) European populations because of sexual selection. Women's hair color becomes darker after giving birth and during normal aging so blond hair is a sign of youth. And men in every corner of the world are attracted to cues that signal young age and peak fertility. That's why it's probable that in some point in Northern Europe there has been an abundance of women from which proportionally smaller amount of men got to choose their partners from.

[Pure ja]

Hair color affects how much your skin gets UVB/UVA?

That is the popular belief, yes.

[Jusarius]

That is the popular belief, yes.Popular even? I have never heard such claim before. Source, please.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

We must ask the Nihilist his expert opinion.

[Pure ja]

Popular even? I have never heard such claim before. Source, please.

Red-haired should be very careful to avoid sunburns.
Blonds less so.
Brunettes don't have to bother that much.

PS. Popular beliefs do not usually have a unified source, that is why these are called popular beliefs.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The population centers and vast majority of arable land on earth are in west part of eurasia. The movements are mainly east - west not south north.

I am pretty sure blonde hair originated in siberia. The nenetsians mostly have blonde hair but they have mongol features, and they also have N y-dna almost always. All the populations that are super heavy on blond hair have N as well. That's probably source of it, proto mongols who had not gotten the gene that gives asian features yet. Blond hair is helpful up north. Red hair was probably more in the middle part of eurasia and has long since been mostly covered up by eastwards expansions.

Europe probably did not directly originate color any features except maybe blue eyes. Though it's likely blue eyes once covered a much bigger part of eurasia. When they got to europe and where they originated, though, is up for speculation, and I don't think it's known for certainty.

As for being "certain" black hair came first, I wouldn't be certain at all. The genes that give black hair today may not have existed at all for all we know. I would not make that assumption, which is based on the now disproven "everyone comes from a very recent common origin" hypothesis.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I've noticed that the people who have the highest amount of blonde hair have very low amounts of red hair, they also often have very strong, nonsensitive skin that tans very easily and has no red/pinkish undertone. The opposite of red-heads. Maybe this says something about a slightly different origin.

Yeah, I don't think they are related at all.

[Fire Haired]

The population centers and vast majority of arable land on earth are in west part of eurasia. The movements are mainly east - west not south north.

I am pretty sure blonde hair originated in siberia. The nenetsians mostly have blonde hair but they have mongol features, and they also have N y-dna almost always. All the populations that are super heavy on blond hair have N as well. That's probably source of it, proto mongols who had not gotten the gene that gives asian features yet. Blond hair is helpful up north. Red hair was probably more in the middle part of eurasia and has long since been mostly covered up by eastwards expansions.

Europe probably did not directly originate color any features except maybe blue eyes. Though it's likely blue eyes once covered a much bigger part of eurasia. When they got to europe and where they originated, though, is up for speculation, and I don't think it's known for certainty.

As for being "certain" black hair came first, I wouldn't be certain at all. The genes that give black hair today may not have existed at all for all we know. I would not make that assumption, which is based on the now disproven "everyone comes from a very recent common origin" hypothesis.

Once again Melonhead you are coming to quick conclusions without much evidence.

I doubt light colored eyes originated in Europe(not saying you believe this) since near easterns have about 15-20% light eyes and close to 10% blue eyes. Light eyes were definitely popular in Mesolithic (west)Europe since 2/2 so far have light eyes, today light eyes along with light hair and skin correlate very well with Mesolithic ancestry. Light eyes could have existed in very early west Eurasians and for some reason became very popular in the Upper Palaeolithic/Mesolithic branch in Europe. I doubt ANE(maybe the eastern brother to WHG) had light eyes, if they did that means light eyes were already popular by over 24,000 years ago.

The first humans had black hair, trust the experts. Why does everyone in the world have almost entirely black(not brown) hair and brown eyes except west Eurasians? Look at your pets or go to the zoo almost all animals also have brown eyes. Blonde and red hair are very unique to Europeans and exist in other west Eurasians. Why would you even argue this I thought it was common sense that black hair came first?

How is blonde hair helpful up north?

I totally dis agree with your proto Mongoloid blonde hair theory. Those people you mention don't have 100% blonde hair not even Finns, Swedes, and Norwegians have 100% blonde hair(something like 50% but over 70% have light hair). I looked them up on Google images and every single one looked like a typical east Asian not one had light eyes or non black hair. European features in Mongolians, Siberians, west Chinese, etc. can definitely be excused by European mixing. We know through ancient DNA, ancient writing, ext. that the Indo Iranians and Tocharian's were mainly light haired and eyed and also had some red hair and mixed very much with east Asians in those areas. There are traces of European ancestry in those peoples.

In my opinion light and red hair either developed in Europe during the Neolithic(hunter-farmer mutts) or existed in pre Neolithic European hunter gatherers but could have been isolated in certain regions.

[Weedman]

Do you think indo-europeans were farmers? when they initially spread throughout Europe, they were herders and pastoralists mostly

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Once again Melonhead you are coming to quick conclusions without much evidence.

I doubt light colored eyes originated in Europe(not saying you believe this) since near easterns have about 15-20% light eyes and close to 10% blue eyes. Light eyes were definitely popular in Mesolithic (west)Europe since 2/2 so far have light eyes, today light eyes along with light hair and skin correlate very well with Mesolithic ancestry. Light eyes could have existed in very early west Eurasians and for some reason became very popular in the Upper Palaeolithic/Mesolithic branch in Europe. I doubt ANE(maybe the eastern brother to WHG) had light eyes, if they did that means light eyes were already popular by over 24,000 years ago.

The first humans had black hair, trust the experts. Why does everyone in the world have almost entirely black(not brown) hair and brown eyes except west Eurasians? Look at your pets or go to the zoo almost all animals also have brown eyes. Blonde and red hair are very unique to Europeans and exist in other west Eurasians. Why would you even argue this I thought it was common sense that black hair came first?

How is blonde hair helpful up north?

I totally dis agree with your proto Mongoloid blonde hair theory. Those people you mention don't have 100% blonde hair not even Finns, Swedes, and Norwegians have 100% blonde hair(something like 50% but over 70% have light hair). I looked them up on Google images and every single one looked like a typical east Asian not one had light eyes or non black hair. European features in Mongolians, Siberians, west Chinese, etc. can definitely be excused by European mixing. We know through ancient DNA, ancient writing, ext. that the Indo Iranians and Tocharian's were mainly light haired and eyed and also had some red hair and mixed very much with east Asians in those areas. There are traces of European ancestry in those peoples.

In my opinion light and red hair either developed in Europe during the Neolithic(hunter-farmer mutts) or existed in pre Neolithic European hunter gatherers but could have been isolated in certain regions.

Well you just make up dumb theory, then say it's true, then say mine is impossible. It's pretty much pointless and retarded.

I know how they arrived at the conclusion for black hair, that's why I know it's invalid logic. It could be true but it's just another made up theory. More data is needed, we have very little evidence. But we do know whole central asia was much blonder and had many more redheads, and that the mongols have not fully asianized until last 1000 years. You are saying some things are a theory when they are just data.

I admit I am sharing my own theory but it's one that actually makes sense and has some support such as celts areas having most red hair and hair previously existing in same latitudes further east, and blondism having the most prevalence far north and nothing to do with 'europe'. I get tired of you saying stupid shit towards me. If you don't have the same theory fine, but look at actual points don't make baseless claims that I leap to conclusions and make stuff up. I am 3 times your age and highly educated and intelligent and actually know a fuck of a lot about anthropology and genetics and history while you are a teenager trying to correct me about subjects you knew nothing about til last year or so.

I don't think your theories are necessarily that bad they are not as dumb as many. But you can either play the 'orthodoxy' game, or else open yourself to other opinions and only dismiss them if you have real proof they are invalid. You seem to want it both ways but I can just as easily say "no leave it to the experts" and tell you to shut up as you can me.

[zhaoyun]

Its pretty cool how certain mutations used to take hold relatively fast in a population due to significant isolation and small numerical populations. It's pretty difficult in this day and age for mutations to take on naturally, though with significant advances in genetics, who knows if in the future, every first world parent would be actively taking a hand in "creating" their baby. A bit scary, but this might very well be possible in the near future. It would further divide the wealthy from the poor.

On the topic of blonde hair, interestingly, Caucasians are not the only ones with natural blonde hair. Melanesians actually have certain populations with a large number of natural blondes, though it is from a different mutation than those common amongst Europeans.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120503142538.htm

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Its pretty cool how certain mutations used to take hold relatively fast in a population due to significant isolation and small numerical populations. It's pretty difficult in this day and age for mutations to take on naturally, though with significant advances in genetics, who knows if in the future, every first world parent would be actively taking a hand in "creating" their baby. A bit scary, but this might very well be possible in the near future. It would further divide the wealthy from the poor.

On the topic of blonde hair, interestingly, Caucasians are not the only ones with natural blonde hair. Melanesians actually have certain populations with a large number of natural blondes, though it is from a different mutation than those common amongst Europeans.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120503142538.htm

Actually there's thousands being selected on. But you don't get a whole new homogenous population created very easily with the amount of mixing there is today...everything tends towards being all jumbled.

[zhaoyun]

Actually there's thousands being selected on. But you don't get a whole new homogenous population created very easily with the amount of mixing there is today...everything tends towards being all jumbled.

yeah, thats my point, there arent the conditions today that make natural mutations come to dominate populations as easily as in the past. Namely isolated and small populations.

[Peyrol]

The population centers and vast majority of arable land on earth are in west part of eurasia. The movements are mainly east - west not south north.

I am pretty sure blonde hair originated in siberia. The nenetsians mostly have blonde hair but they have mongol features, and they also have N y-dna almost always. All the populations that are super heavy on blond hair have N as well. That's probably source of it, proto mongols who had not gotten the gene that gives asian features yet. Blond hair is helpful up north. Red hair was probably more in the middle part of eurasia and has long since been mostly covered up by eastwards expansions.

Europe probably did not directly originate color any features except maybe blue eyes. Though it's likely blue eyes once covered a much bigger part of eurasia. When they got to europe and where they originated, though, is up for speculation, and I don't think it's known for certainty.

As for being "certain" black hair came first, I wouldn't be certain at all. The genes that give black hair today may not have existed at all for all we know. I would not make that assumption, which is based on the now disproven "everyone comes from a very recent common origin" hypothesis.

''Black hairs'' in Italy, for example, are in reality dark brown hairs. Very diferent from asian black hairs and even subsaharian ''raven'' black.
They can be even a climal adaptation (that followed a ''parallel evolution'' with other non euro peopel with true black hairs) of a (presumed) original brown/light brown hairs of indoeuropeans

[Tooting Carmen]

Those 'blonde maps' in the OP are very dubious, as is the idea that the original Europeans were blonde.

[Jackson]

Well it's interesting that the Eurogenes project ran four ancient genomes through the K13 and M'alta had 31% Baltic and 7% west Asian, that's alreadya 30-40% overlap with many north/central/eastern Europeans. Also he had no East Asian, but modern people in similar areas do apparently, so it looks like East Asians having been moving from east to west over the last 20,000 years also. So it could be that as the East Asians moved west into Siberia, many Siberians moved north and west too, creating a knock-on effect. So in theory it's not that impossible for northern Europeans to share a large amount of ancestry with ancient western Siberians. I guess it makes sense, as we are a combination of North Eurasians with West Eurasians.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/

[Argang]

Well it's interesting that the Eurogenes project ran four ancient genomes through the K13 and M'alta had 31% Baltic and 7% west Asian, that's alreadya 30-40% overlap with many north/central/eastern Europeans. Also he had no East Asian, but modern people in similar areas do apparently, so it looks like East Asians having been moving from east to west over the last 20,000 years also. So it could be that as the East Asians moved west into Siberia, many Siberians moved north and west too, creating a knock-on effect. So in theory it's not that impossible for northern Europeans to share a large amount of ancestry with ancient western Siberians. I guess it makes sense, as we are a combination of North Eurasians with West Eurasians.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/

In the peer-reviewed analysis Mal'ta had no "Han chinese" component, but lots of Karitiana (amerindian), some Chukchi (paleo-siberian) and slight Oceanian. In Eurogenes' K13 he has 22% amerindian, 7.5% siberian and 3.7% oceanian but no east asian which corresponds pretty well to that.

The PCA's show the difference between Mal'ta and modern siberians clearly, here's an european zoom to the one with both of them.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2yonw45.jpg

[Fire Haired]

''Black hairs'' in Italy, for example, are in reality dark brown hairs. Very diferent from asian black hairs and even subsaharian ''raven'' black.
They can be even a climal adaptation (that followed a ''parallel evolution'' with other non euro peopel with true black hairs) of a (presumed) original brown/light brown hairs of indoeuropeans

There are black haired people in Italy. Black is the original human hair color no reason to argue about this.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

''Black hairs'' in Italy, for example, are in reality dark brown hairs. Very diferent from asian black hairs and even subsaharian ''raven'' black.
They can be even a climal adaptation (that followed a ''parallel evolution'' with other non euro peopel with true black hairs) of a (presumed) original brown/light brown hairs of indoeuropeans

Very true. Also, I should point out most of what I said, actually IS the 'accepted' story. The only contradiction is the black hair and I only point out this is also something we don't really know. The very ancient DNA we sequence so far does not have quite the same versions of hair genes we have and there's no reason to think it will be the same even 50k years back let alone a million years.

[Prince Carlo]

Once again Melonhead you are coming to quick conclusions without much evidence.

I doubt light colored eyes originated in Europe(not saying you believe this) since near easterns have about 15-20% light eyes and close to 10% blue eyes.

I LOLed hard here. Only North Caucasians could have such percentage of light eyes. The bulk of MENA could be at max 5% light eyed. Pure light eyes are less than 3%.

[Fire Haired]

I LOLed hard here. Only North Caucasians could have such percentage of light eyes. The bulk of MENA could be at max 5% light eyed. Pure light eyes are less than 3%.

Here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theapricity.com%2Fforum%2Fsho wthread.php%3F35882-New-Hair-and-Eye-color-statistics-(2011)&ei=y6MGU7rHEeqy2gWD4oGACQ&usg=AFQjCNG1V1r38hvFfdhSjnN5K2j6DmuPUw&sig2=sx3pQk_Pmmtgeb--E4E-ng&bvm=bv.61725948,d.b2I) is my source.

[Peyrol]

There are black haired people in Italy. Black is the original human hair color no reason to argue about this.

Very few, except obviously Sardinia and some deep southern zones.
The majority is brown, as you can see.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Brown_hair_Italy.png

[Peyrol]

Here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theapricity.com%2Fforum%2Fsho wthread.php%3F35882-New-Hair-and-Eye-color-statistics-(2011)&ei=y6MGU7rHEeqy2gWD4oGACQ&usg=AFQjCNG1V1r38hvFfdhSjnN5K2j6DmuPUw&sig2=sx3pQk_Pmmtgeb--E4E-ng&bvm=bv.61725948,d.b2I) is my source.

There are about 1 million of MENA immigrants in North Italy and in 24 years of life i've seen only 4-5 light eyed MENAs, and they were mostly iranians or pakistani.

[Peikko]

Fire Haired is probably Iranian or something.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Nah, he is just 15-16 though, so he takes sources compiled by retards as authority on reality too often. Eupedia guy is ridiculous enough (for theories and interpretation part anyway) but random forum member who is not here any more who seems to be ButlerKing style troll is worse.

[Raikaswinþs]

This maps are made up. Blond hair isn't more common in Galicia than in southern Spain. It is evenly spread and pure blonds make around 10% of general pops, rising up to 20-30% if you count light browns ans ash-blonde types.

they remaining 80% is made mostly of brown to dark-brown types. Purely black hair is as common as light brown.

[Fire Haired]

This maps are made up. Blond hair isn't more common in Galicia than in southern Spain. It is evenly spread and pure blonds make around 10% of general pops, rising up to 20-30% if you count light browns ans ash-blonde types.

they remaining 80% is made mostly of brown to dark-brown types. Purely black hair is as common as light brown.

I am pretty sure all or most of those maps were made by anthropologist who studied people all over the world and kept statistics. It is very constant with modern studies I have seen like this one (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theapricity.com%2Fforum%2Fsho wthread.php%3F35882-New-Hair-and-Eye-color-statistics-(2011)&ei=_88HU8uyB-KQyQGnoIDIDA&usg=AFQjCNG1V1r38hvFfdhSjnN5K2j6DmuPUw&sig2=6Zfa_DkNSkhWwxHHQqm7rQ&bvm=bv.61725948,d.aWc).

[Prisoner Of Ice]

This maps are made up. Blond hair isn't more common in Galicia than in southern Spain. It is evenly spread and pure blonds make around 10% of general pops, rising up to 20-30% if you count light browns ans ash-blonde types.

they remaining 80% is made mostly of brown to dark-brown types. Purely black hair is as common as light brown.

Yeah, the blond is probably ancient suebes and visigoths, not the celts/basques, so it makes sense to be spread all around. Blue eyes is more common in the north though.