Eupedia new R1b map of the Old World

[Fire Haired]

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif

Finally They make a map of Y DNA not just showing Europe. When u break it down almost all R1b in west Europe is under R1b L51. Almost all R1b around the central area of the middle east is R1b L23 or R1b Z2103. In central asia it seems mainly R1b M73 but i am not sure. In Africa mainly the hot spot in sub shara Africa R1b V88 which also exists around Israel and Levant. The R1b in north Africa i think is a mix of Italo Celtic R1b S116/P312 probably the main CeltIberian branch R1b Df27 and mid eastern R1b types like R1b L23 and M269.

Y DNa R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M207_(Y-DNA)) was originally Mongoloid. I have heard that some thing it originated in central Asia, It is the brother to Q (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242) (dominate Native American and central Siberian Y DNA), and cousins to N (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)) a(dominate north Siberian Y DNA and of Uralic speakers), and O (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175)(Dominate in ethnic Chinese and very popular through out east Asia). Then R formed into R1 i dont know were maybe Iran since its broth R2 is found there. R1 is estimated to be about 20,000-30,000 years old. R1b is estimated to be about 18,000 years old i would guess originating around Iran. It deifntley has been in the mid east for a very long time, Since European R1b L51 descends from mid eastern R1b L23 and African R1b V88 brothers are only found around the mid east so it would make sense its ancestor did to.

R1b P297 would have made it out of the mid east into European Russia and central asia by probably over 10,000ybp because it has a son R1b M73 which is unique to central asia. It seems like to me it pounced around the mid east for thousands of years. And made it made a migration out into either southern Russia and Ukraine or south east Europe 6,000-8,000ybp with R1b L23. They also may have brought proto Indo European languages. They then were able to migrate landed in Germany by 5000ybp forming into R1b L51 and spreading Germanic Italo Celtic languages in Bronze and Iron ages. So there was something Indo European about them originally or they got it after migrating to southeast Europe or southern Russia and Ukraine. Click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe) explains about Germanic Italo Celts R1b L51-L11 spread in western Europe.

Map of R1b (ht35). R1b L23, R1b L51, R1b L11, and R1b Z2103). In Europe it is almost all R1b L11 and L51 except areas in southern meditreaen. In the mid east and south east Europe is R1b L23 and Z2103 probably mainly L23.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif

Italo Celtic (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FItalo-Celtic&ei=nYAhUsDbDeiksQTQmoCACA&usg=AFQjCNH1mQ-FuTCspHXB3KKDCexHLhcStQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc) R1b P312/S116 branch. Probably started in central Europe 4,000-5,000ybp. Would have first expanded with Unetice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture) and Tumulus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus_culture) cultures 4,500-3,500ybp. It also has very rare Germanic branches R1b Df19 and L238. It would have been inter marriage with early R1b P313 and R1b U106 then when Germanic languages spread with R1b U106 they had some P312.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif

Map of Germanic (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGermani c_peoples&ei=uYAhUtm9JIPEsATI6oGwCg&usg=AFQjCNHSCnne-1y-3iNVBw8uyDDpwD8moA&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc) R1b U106/S21. Would have begun in central Europe or northern Germany or Netherlands probably over 4,000ybp. Then spread with proto Germanic languages up north in 4,000-3,500ybp and started Nordic Bronze age culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FNordic_ Bronze_Age&ei=0YAhUr_8FrK6sQSvh4HwBA&usg=AFQjCNEWmRehGQZq-2JvzcKfoyaRC_TJvQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc). It also spread in major ways during iron age Germanic migrations to the south. The reason it extends so far in eastern Europe is east Germanic tribes Goths and Vandals who migrated all over east Europe in late iron age and during the Roman empire. The reason it is so high in Britain is Anglea, Saxon, and Jute conquering from 400-600ad. Which is where England and the English language come from. \
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

R1b L21 son of R1b P312/S116. R1b L21 probably started in France around 4,000ybp and spread to Britian and Ireland 3,000-4,300ybp from Tumlus (http://Tumulus) culture. As the main paternal lineage of proto Insular Celtic speakers (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FInsular _Celtic_languages&ei=AYEhUpK1G-ewsATI0YDICg&usg=AFQjCNEiWAtqoMSmTb7As-oYR6apz8lbcQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc). The reason why it is s popular in western France is some Britons apart of the western Roman empire as it fell and the Germanic invasions retreated to western France.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

Italo Gaulich R1b S28/U152 map. Would have probably started in central Europe around 4,000ybp and expanded with Urnfield culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUrnfiel d_culture&ei=F4EhUp6IK8uMyAH2k4H4AQ&usg=AFQjCNFiQZ9OiLC2boFrSbQAv9K1jC8CZg&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc) starting 3,500-4,000ybp. Spreading Italic languages (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FItalic_ languages&ei=JoEhUvzYIqnWyQGGjoDIBA&usg=AFQjCNFMnlUV2EYQqKk7darne7_Cy6u2Fw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc) to Italy 3,200-3,000ybp and Spread hallstat (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHallsta tt_culture&ei=OIEhUvLbI6fBsATl7oCICA&usg=AFQjCNEEcOxr9MyRVR2Y4cu7yzREpRtFPQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc)-La Tene (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLa_T%25 C3%25A8ne_culture&ei=TYEhUpmmNNK1sQSfoYDwDw&usg=AFQjCNHMXjiEd7NZIb9V6cGYdj_YkRHAPg&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc) Celtic cultures.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

CeltIberian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCeltibe rians&ei=b4EhUt3_MJC0sATv94H4CQ&usg=AFQjCNGQkZw7eE1uQj3ss6AJrKmUVVimkw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc) R1b Df27 map only counting subclades (SRY2627 and M153). It probably started in France around 4,000ybp and spread to Iberia with from Tumlus (http://Tumlus) culture 3,000-4,300ybp. It takes up almost all R1b in Iberia so around 60% of paternal lineages.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif

[Sikeliot]

What the map shows is this:

- Albania, southern Italy, eastern Sicily, and southern Greece have a significant amount of Anatolian/Armenian R1b
- "Italo-Celtic" R1b is most common in western Europe, and the northern half of Italy.
- Germanic R1b is higher in Germanic countries and northwestern Sicily.
- The most common Iberian subclades of R1b are not shared with anyone else in large amounts except for the French and southern Germany.

[1stLightHorse]

Great post again fire haired. I enjoy your posts alot.

[Fire Haired]

What the map shows is this:

- Albania, southern Italy, eastern Sicily, and southern Greece have a significant amount of Anatolian/Armenian R1b
- "Italo-Celtic" R1b is most common in western Europe, and the northern half of Italy.
- Germanic R1b is higher in Germanic countries and northwestern Sicily.
- The most common Iberian subclades of R1b are not shared with anyone else in large amounts except for the French and southern Germany.

Totally agree. I dont know if the mid eastern R1b in Italy is very significant i guess in far southern it is. What it shows is there was inter marriage along the Mediterranean in Greco Roman times even in Iberia and Gaul. Since their main haplogroup is not R1b i am sure alot of J1, J2, and E1b1b in Mediterranean Europe is from the Greco Roman age. Italo Celtic R1b is most popular in Italo Celtic speaking areas. The same area of northern Sicily also has 10-15% R1b L21 and it seems like it has more I1 and I2a2 former I2b. Maybe that area of Sicily had tons of Slaves during the Roman empure i dont know. I guess Germanic migrations and Vikings could have something to do with it. Deifntley vikings and the R1b L21 since it is 15-20% in Iceland because of their contact and wars with Britain and Ireland.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

I dont know if we can say those are the most popular R1b Df27 subclades. Because overall Df27 probably takes up 50-60% of Iberian Y DNA and these subclades are not even close to that. Also the western France thing makes sense because Basque like langauges were spoken in that area they were called Aquitene.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitani

[Sikeliot]

In Sicily, the Germanic haplogroups are of Norman origin most likely since they always concentrate around Palermo. However for one reason or another, I2b is also very common in Greece.

Iberian R1b is not common in Sicily (in fact nonexistent) so we can pretty much tell that the 300 years of Spanish rule of the island had no genetic impact. Greco-Anatolian R1b, of course, is present along the eastern coast where the Greeks settled.

[Fire Haired]

I defintley think the I2a2, I1, and R1b U106 in Sicily is Germanic. Your probably right about the Normans but we cant be sure which group of Germans. I have no idea Spain ruled Sicily for 300 years. The Greek thing makes sense too.

[Sikeliot]

I defintley think the I2a2, I1, and R1b U106 in Sicily is Germanic. Your probably right about the Normans but we cant be sure which group of Germans. I have no idea Spain ruled Sicily for 300 years. The Greek thing makes sense too.

They did. And I always assumed no genetic impact but it is good to see that I was correct and not just speaking out of my ass.

[Sky earth]

Haplogroup R1b M73 is very common among Turkic peoples and Hazaras:

R1b1a1 (2011 name) is defined by the presence of SNP marker M73. It has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia, but has been found with relatively high frequency among particular populations there including Hazaras in Pakistan (8/25 = 32%); and Bashkirs in Bashkortostan (62/471 = 13.2%), 44 of these being found among the 80 tested Bashkirs of the Abzelilovsky District in the Republic of Bashkortostan (55.0%). Four R-M73 men were also found in a 523-person study of Turkey

[ALL]

R1b-L51+ is not found on the Steppe only R1b-Z2103+ and R1b-M73+ as well as R1a 93+ are found on the Steppe among the Baskirs and also Komi; it is also found in Iranian speaking areas of Northwestern Iran and Anatolia/Armenian.

Medes-
he Medes /midz/[N 1] (from Old Persian Māda-) were an ancient Iranian people[N 2] who lived in an area known as Media and who spoke a northwestern Iranian language referred to as the Median language

Armenian-
Armenian is a sub-branch of the Indo-European family, and with some 8 million speakers one of the smallest surviving branches, comparable to Albanian or the somewhat more widely spoken Greek, with which it may be connected (see Graeco-Armenian)

Proto-Greek-
The close relatedness of Armenian and Greek sheds light on the paraphyletic nature of the Centum-Satem isogloss.......Close similarities between Ancient Greek and Vedic Sanskrit suggest that both Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian were still quite similar to either late Proto-Indo-European, which would place the latter somewhere in the late 4th millennium BC,.

Bashkir R1b-Z2103 L51-, M73+
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqort_Clans/default.aspx?section=yresults

011. R1b+L150

R1b Z2103 Is also found among Digor Ossetians, Jászság Hungarians, and probably Balkarians ,among the older areas of Greece,[Arcadia, Sparta]
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

Ossetians-
The Ossetians (Ossetian: ирæттæ, irættæ) are an Iranian ethnic group of the Caucasus Mountains, indigenous to the region known as Ossetia.[9][10][11]

Jászság Hungarians-
The connection between the modern Jassic people and the Iazyges is disputed. Most Hungarian scholars claim that they were two different Sarmatian groups, and that the Jassic people are relatives of the Alans and the Ossetians.

Balkarians-
Balkars were part of Alania and one of the Vainakh tribes who were influenced by Turkic culture after the Mongol invasion's split of the lowlands of Nakh tribes and adopted the language; genetically they are closely related to Chechens and Ingush[4].

[rashka]

I defintley think the I2a2, I1, and R1b U106 in Sicily is Germanic.
Isn't the I type quite high in the Slavic Balkans?

[Graham]

Didn't know it went that far east, into China, Mongolia & India even.

The Welsh R1b is lower here.

[Benacer]

What the map shows is this:

- Albania, southern Italy, eastern Sicily, and southern Greece have a significant amount of Anatolian/Armenian R1b


Looks like it was spread in west Europe through the sea.

[Benacer]

Italo Celtic (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FItalo-Celtic&ei=nYAhUsDbDeiksQTQmoCACA&usg=AFQjCNH1mQ-FuTCspHXB3KKDCexHLhcStQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc) R1b P312/S116 branch. Probably started in central Europe 4,000-5,000ybp. Would have first expanded with Unetice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture) and Tumulus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus_culture) cultures 4,500-3,500ybp. It also has very rare Germanic branches R1b Df19 and L238. It would have been inter marriage with early R1b P313 and R1b U106 then when Germanic languages spread with R1b U106 they had some P312.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif


In Iberia it is more common in the least Celtic-influenced areas. Sure, there were a lot of inner migrations later with the islamic invasion and whatnot, but it's still fairly odd.

[Lábaru]

In Iberia it is more common in the least Celtic-influenced areas. Sure, there were a lot of inner migrations later with the islamic invasion and whatnot, but it's still fairly odd.

Iberian were also R1b, even more than the Celts, in fact the Basques have the highest frequency of R1b in Europe.

[Ibericus]

They did. And I always assumed no genetic impact but it is good to see that I was correct and not just speaking out of my ass.
Sicilians have no DF27, so yes no iberian influence to talk about.


In Iberia it is more common in the least Celtic-influenced areas. Sure, there were a lot of inner migrations later with the islamic invasion and whatnot, but it's still fairly odd.
How do you explain then Basques having 20% of L-21 (peaks in Irish )

[Ice]

Y DNa R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M207_(Y-DNA)) was originally Mongoloid. I have heard that some thing it originated in central Asia, It is the brother to Q (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242) (dominate Native American and central Siberian Y DNA), and cousins to N (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)) a(dominate north Siberian Y DNA and of Uralic speakers), and O (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175)(Dominate in ethnic Chinese and very popular through out east Asia). Then R formed into R1 i dont know were maybe Iran since its broth R2 is found there. R1 is estimated to be about 20,000-30,000 years old. R1b is estimated to be about 18,000 years old i would guess originating around Iran. It deifntley has been in the mid east for a very long time, Since European R1b L51 descends from mid eastern R1b L23 and African R1b V88 brothers are only found around the mid east so it would make sense its ancestor did to.

R1b P297 would have made it out of the mid east into European Russia and central asia by probably over 10,000ybp because it has a son R1b M73 which is unique to central asia. It seems like to me it pounced around the mid east for thousands of years. And made it made a migration out into either southern Russia and Ukraine or south east Europe 6,000-8,000ybp with R1b L23. They also may have brought proto Indo European languages. They then were able to migrate landed in Germany by 5000ybp forming into R1b L51 and spreading Germanic Italo Celtic languages in Bronze and Iron ages. So there was something Indo European about them originally or they got it after migrating to southeast Europe or southern Russia and Ukraine. Click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe) explains about Germanic Italo Celts R1b L51-L11 spread in western Europe.


:thumb001:

[Damião de Góis]

CeltIberian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCeltibe rians&ei=b4EhUt3_MJC0sATv94H4CQ&usg=AFQjCNGQkZw7eE1uQj3ss6AJrKmUVVimkw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc) R1b Df27 map only counting subclades (SRY2627 and M153). It probably started in France around 4,000ybp and spread to Iberia with from Tumlus (http://Tumlus) culture 3,000-4,300ybp. It takes up almost all R1b in Iberia so around 60% of paternal lineages.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif

Looks more like a basque haplogroup to me instead of celtiberian.

[Peikko]

Map of Germanic (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGermani c_peoples&ei=uYAhUtm9JIPEsATI6oGwCg&usg=AFQjCNHSCnne-1y-3iNVBw8uyDDpwD8moA&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc) R1b U106/S21. Would have begun in central Europe or northern Germany or Netherlands probably over 4,000ybp. Then spread with proto Germanic languages up north in 4,000-3,500ybp and started Nordic Bronze age culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FNordic_ Bronze_Age&ei=0YAhUr_8FrK6sQSvh4HwBA&usg=AFQjCNEWmRehGQZq-2JvzcKfoyaRC_TJvQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc). It also spread in major ways during iron age Germanic migrations to the south. The reason it extends so far in eastern Europe is east Germanic tribes Goths and Vandals who migrated all over east Europe in late iron age and during the Roman empire. The reason it is so high in Britain is Anglea, Saxon, and Jute conquering from 400-600ad. Which is where England and the English language come from. \
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

Very interesting indeed, Fire Haired. The Germanic R-S21 seems to correspond to Germanic speaking areas quite well. How accurate are these maps? Does anyone happen to know, why there is a lower frequency region in the center of Germany?

[Lábaru]

Looks more like a basque haplogroup to me instead of celtiberian.

This, Basques are clearly a group of Iberia and relative to other Iberians, R1B is not only Celtic.

[Graham]

To say what is labeled 'celtiberian' you should really be checking remains from those days, & not modern day peoples.

[WOOHP]

I would say this one is more a West Germanic subclade rather than just "Germanic".

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

[Peikko]

To say what is labeled 'celtiberian' you should really be checking remains from those days, & not modern day peoples.
Exactly. Haplogroups can't be associated one-to-one with any tribes, because new mutations don't follow the tribal divisions. Some tribe might already have multiple haplogroups, when they start spreading. Some tribe might be assimilated to another, but this doesn't mean, that their haplogroups disappear or form a new mutation etc.

[ALL]

Exactly. Haplogroups can't be associated one-to-one with any tribes, because new mutations don't follow the tribal divisions.....


What?

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/NW_Irish

http://www.familytreedna.com/landing/matching-niall.aspx

[Peikko]

What?

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/NW_Irish

http://www.familytreedna.com/landing/matching-niall.aspx
Yes, everyone who has the same mutation, has a same ancestor in their family tree. However, when ever a new mutation occurs, the carrier is still part of his tribe and speaks the same language etc.

[Atlantic Islander]

Makes sense, these are the top 5 among my RF list:


R1b1b2a1a - 68
R1b1b2a1a2f ( * included) - 17
R1b1b2a1a1 ( * included) - 16
R1a1a ( * included) - 15
R1b1b2a1a2 & R1b1b2a1a2d ( * included) - 12 each



I don't see R1b1b2a1a2f on the list you posted though, where would this one be most common?

[ALL]

Yes, everyone who has the same mutation, has a same ancestor in their family tree.

IJ-M429

However, when ever a new mutation occurs, the carrier is still part of his tribe and speaks the same language etc.

That is what I find interesting prior to the arrival of R1b IJ-M429 spoke which language?


Anyway you can help and send a request to get King Tuts official results from this report some say it might be R1b; but which branch Z 2103 or R1b L51+ here is the official JAMA
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185393

Its been 3-4 years perhaps we will never know and it will remain a secret forever, however it looks like a fair number of scientists worked on it.

[Damião de Góis]

To say what is labeled 'celtiberian' you should really be checking remains from those days, & not modern day peoples.

Yes but if you're going to label them like the OP did, then chances are that "Basque" is a more approriate label for that haplogroup in particular.

[Atlantic Islander]

I don't see R1b1b2a1a2f on the list you posted though, where would this one be most common?

Actually nevermind, I found this. (http://genealogymysteriessolved.blogspot.com/2010/09/paternal-haplogroup-r1b1b2a1a2f.html)

[Graham]

Yeah R1b1b2a1a2f is L-21. A small amount of Portugese & Galacians have it. More common in Basqueland. Most common in The Atlantic North West, Brittany & Ireland.

[Benacer]

How do you explain then Basques having 20% of L-21 (peaks in Irish )

Good question. I have once read a founder-effect idea that it could have something to do with a small founding population in the region (which apparently was sparsely populated then) maintaining that specific line more isolated from the neighboring areas.

[Fire Haired]

Looks like it was spread in west Europe through the sea.

click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe) since it breaks down into laguage families. also that from 31 y da samples from neloithic and chaloithic west europe 24 had g2a, 4 had i2a1a, one had e v13, two had either F or one of its decendants since f is the father of almost all non african y dna. then suddenly two 4,600ybp bell beaker y dna samples in central germany had r1b exactley the time it is suppose to have arrived.

[Fire Haired]

I would say this one is more a West Germanic subclade rather than just "Germanic".

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

if it was only west germanic it would not be so popular in norway and swedan. It defintley is for all germanic speakers and it seems it is the marker of the proto germanic speakers.

[Peikko]

if it was only west germanic it would not be so popular in norway and swedan. It defintley is for all germanic speakers and it seems it is the marker of the proto germanic speakers.
I guess North Germanic doesn't really exist, since Scandinavians are a mix of proto-North European, Germanic and Slavic.

[gold_fenix]

I guess North Germanic doesn't really exist, since Scandinavians are a mix of proto-North European, Germanic and Slavic.

i think this would be very correct in Skandinavian
proto North European= mesolithic
slavic=indo european
and germanic a mix of mesolithic and neolithic

[Peikko]

i think this would be very correct in Skandinavian
proto North European= mesolithic
slavic=indo european
and germanic a mix of mesolithic and neolithic
By Slavic I mean R1a, which is quite high in Scandinavia.

[Fire Haired]

I guess North Germanic doesn't really exist, since Scandinavians are a mix of proto-North European, Germanic and Slavic.

north germanic does exist it is a language. what do u mean by proto north euro just people who lived in scandnavia before german languages. I guess they have some slavic like blood because of theri R1a1a1b1 and corded ware culture was there.

[Fire Haired]

By Slavic I mean R1b, which is quite high in Scandinavia.

dot u mean r1a1a1b1 Z283

[Peikko]

north germanic does exist it is a language. what do u mean by proto north euro just people who lived in scandnavia before german languages. I guess they have some slavic like blood because of theri R1a1a1b1 and corded ware culture was there.
North Germanic is a language group, yes. But North Germanic haplogroup doesn't exist. And R1a probably mostly came with corded ware culture, yes.


dot u mean r1a1a1b1 Z283
Yes, I had a typo, I corrected it.

[WOOHP]

if it was only west germanic it would not be so popular in norway and swedan. It defintley is for all germanic speakers and it seems it is the marker of the proto germanic speakers.

It peaks in the Netherlands, and is more frequent in typical Western Germanic areas like England, Western Germany and Belgium.

Only exceptions are some parts of Denmark and Norway.

[WOOHP]

I guess North Germanic doesn't really exist, since Scandinavians are a mix of proto-North European, Germanic and Slavic.

"North Germanic" to me is pretty much Germanic + proto-North European.

Denying a North Germanic identity today is just wrong.

[Peikko]

"North Germanic" to me is pretty much Germanic + prot-North European.

Denying a North Germanic identity today is just wrong.

Yes, but Norway and Sweden have about equal amounts of Slavic and Germanic R1a and R1b. North Germanics are a result of race mixing.

[WOOHP]

Yes, but Norway and Sweden have about equal amounts of Slavic and Germanic R1a and R1b. North Germanics are a result of race mixing.

R1a arn't Slavics. It might peak somewhere around there but they weren't "Slavs".
What's next? R1b is Celtic?
So Scandos are 1/3 Celtic, 1/3 Slavic and the rest aborginal to Northern Europe?

[Peikko]

R1a arn't Slavics. It might peak somewhere around there but they weren't "Slavs".
What's next? R1b is Celtic?
So Scandos are 1/3 Celtic, 1/3 Slavic and the rest aborginal to Northern Europe?
Basically yes. If R1a isn't Slavic, then what is it?

[Fire Haired]

R1a arn't Slavics. It might peak somewhere around there but they weren't "Slavs".
What's next? R1b is Celtic?
So Scandos are 1/3 Celtic, 1/3 Slavic and the rest aborginal to Northern Europe?

u are making things to simple. of course not all r1a is slavic. but all r1a under r1a1a1b2 z28 is balto slavic and spread starting with corded ware culture 5,000ybp. u should look up r1a eupedia it explains it pretty well. r1a1a1 m417 was major in spreading indo european languages and it seems it started around ukriane.

also of course not all r1b is celtic. i think i explained on this thread it did not arrive in europe till 6,000-8,000ybp as probably r1b l23.

click on this link they explains alot
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe&goto=newpost

for one thing r1b and r1a are just direct male lineages they dont tell full ancestry.

[Pleurat]

What the map shows is this:

- Albania, southern Italy, eastern Sicily, and southern Greece have a significant amount of Anatolian/Armenian R1b
- "Italo-Celtic" R1b is most common in western Europe, and the northern half of Italy.
- Germanic R1b is higher in Germanic countries and northwestern Sicily.
- The most common Iberian subclades of R1b are not shared with anyone else in large amounts except for the French and southern Germany.



This is not Armenian R1b but pre Anatolian or Balkanic R1b. It peaks also in Translivania in romania were dacian tribe were numerous. It also peaks in Black Sea Turkey were people are light.

In Balkan it peaks in Albania/Kosovo and in Greece it peaks in Areas were Arvanites settled which is very interesting.


What surprised me is the high Balkanic R1b in Calabria..... maybe Arberesh blood??

[Peikko]

u are making things to simple. of course not all r1a is slavic. but all r1a under r1a1a1b2 z28 is balto slavic and spread starting with corded ware culture 5,000ybp. u should look up r1a eupedia it explains it pretty well. r1a1a1 m417 was major in spreading indo european languages and it seems it started around ukriane.

also of course not all r1b is celtic. i think i explained on this thread it did not arrive in europe till 6,000-8,000ybp as probably r1b l23.

click on this link they explains alot
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe&goto=newpost

for one thing r1b and r1a are just direct male lineages they dont tell full ancestry.
Is it possible to do similar maps about maternal lineages? What about N1c1, has it been linked to different migrations?

[Sikeliot]

What surprised me is the high Balkanic R1b in Calabria..... maybe Arberesh blood??

Nope. That R1b is Anatolian in origin, so it's Neolithic. It is only common in the Balkans but didn't originate there.