''The Balts and the Finns in historical perspective: a multidisciplinary approach''

[Hercus Monte]

The Balts and the Finns in historical perspective: a multidisciplinary approach


Introduction. Ethnic history of human populations is a too complicated phenomenon to elucidate it on the basis of several gene frequencies. It is obligatory to compile all data on molecular genetics and serology, to add new ones, to request services of paleopopulation comparisons, facts of anthropological odontology, craniology, and anthropology of the modern population of the area as well as linguistic and archaeological information. A multidisciplinary approach to elucidating historical relations between the Balts and the Finns is the goal of the present report.

Materials and methods. Approx. 800 blood samples from Lithuania were examined in order to investigate Lithuanian population according to different genetic markers. Discrete cranial traits of 6,426 skulls from Lithuania and adjacent territories as well as 3,734 skulls belonging to the Neolithic, Bronze Age, 2,000 YBP and 1,000 YBP were investigated. We disposed of data on the ethnic odontology of 4,993 modern Lithuanians as well as of 1446 skulls dated to 2,000 YBP and 1,000 YBP.

Results. Two separate clusters consisting consequently of four Baltic and two Finnish groups emerged in the dendrogram (Fig. 1).
The mesocranial Mesolithic population in Lithuania might be related to the Middle-European kernel of mesocranes. The Middle-European orientation of the Neolithic and Bronze Age Lithuanian population is evident. The influx from the eastern part of the ancient Baltic area was detected in the 2,000 YBP population. The Lithuanian 1,000 YBP population was more homogeneous than the inhabitants of Latvia (Fig. 2).
The Y chromosome haplogroups 1 and 9 show complementary clines from southeast to northwest of Europe, the Baltic peoples(Latvians and Lithuanians) demonstrating a mixture of western and eastern genetic traits (Fig. 3).
In Northern Europe, strong geographical, linguistic and cultural barriers can be identified. Three main migration directions could have a real influence on the formation of the Lithuanian gene pool.

Conclusions: Anthropological, archaeological and linguistic data demonstrate that there was no common ancestry of the Balts and the Finns. Genetic and phenetical similarities might occur due to gene exchange between adjacent populations on the northern and eastern borderlines of the ancient Baltic area that took place from the Mesolithic time. It is impossible to date the emergence of some genetic and anthropological similarities between the Balts and the Finns.

here's the report - http://www.ebiblioteka.lt/resursai/LMA/Acta%20medica%20Lituanica/A-08-1.pdf

[Albion]

Apart from the language differences, how similar are Baltic and Finnic cultures? I've seen some Finnics on here say that Balts are just Indo-Europeanized Finnics before.

[Peikko]

Apart from the language differences, how similar are Baltic and Finnic cultures? I've seen some Finnics on here say that Balts are just Indo-Europeanized Finnics before.
That's only partly true. Some Finnics like livs have been assimilated to Balts. Finns on the other hand are genetically more distant.

Cultural exchange between Finns and Balts has mostly happened through the Baltic Sea trade. Finnish language also has some old loan words from Baltic languages.

[Peikko]

I don't think that Lithuanians and Finns are closer than Scandinavians an Finns. Historically we weren't that much connected. Besides, the pre-indo-european finnicness of Lihuanians now is being declined. Anyway, that was atleast 4000 years ago.
Most Lithuanians don't see much difference between Finns and other Nordic countries. I've heard Finns don't see much difference between Lithuanians and let's say Poles either.
That's probably partly just ignorance. There might be some old traditions we share, which we just don't know about.

[Pure ja]

They follow the outdated theory saying that CCC culture was Uralic. You can read here why it is outdated (written in human language).

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Uralic.html



In my opinion, the school of Hakkinen & Co are practicing double tautology.
The first tautology concerns the tree-model of language evolution. The second tautology builds on the first tautology.
The arguments of their school are (again, in my non-specialist opinion) incomprehensive.

And the original homelands of both indo-european and uralic are still very much open to debate.
As well as the back-tracking of roots of individual languages. Quite recently new claims have rooted the english language to the north-germanic, yet, even that language evolution is a result of a very complex interplay of different languages.
More recently, I have seen a trend in thought, that there has never been a coherent proto-language: not in germanic, not in indo-european, not in uralic, not in finnic, not in baltic-finnic. The finno-ugric language "tree" has turned out to be a "comb", and that could not have stemmed from a narrow region.

[Pure ja]

They follow the outdated theory saying that CCC culture was Uralic. You can read here why it is outdated (written in human language).

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Uralic.html

I haven't seen them pointing out our cultural similarities.

PS. Notice how Hakkinen mentioned in his text the proto-finno-ugric word 'kala', and explained that such proto-words should likely remain in substrate areas. Gee, how about 'Kaloi+pede'?

[Peikko]

I think the bigger question would be, does Estonia share anything with Finland, except the linguistic connection.

[Pure ja]

From the referenced article:
"Significant differences between Lithuanian and Estonian Y chromosome STR haplotypes suggests that these populations have different origins or have differentiated before Indo-Europeanization took place in the Eastern Baltic region."

Does anyone know what are those "significant differences" and how far those differences go back in time?
Lithuanians (and latvians) have more N1c than estonians.
N1c-L550 seems to be guessed-dated to about 4000-4500 years ago.
And I can't find the distribution of different variants of N1c (N1c-L550 and others) among estonians, latvians and lithuanians.

PS. And how on earth one could argue that "these populations have different origins"? And which origins estonians lack that balts have :D
I want some :D

[Pure ja]

I think the bigger question would be, does Estonia share anything with Finland, except the linguistic connection.

In that case, one could rephrase it and ask: does Finland share anything with anyone in the world :confused:

[Peikko]

In that case, one could rephrase it and ask: does Finland share anything with anyone in the world :confused:

Maybe, maybe not. But I can't really think of anything Finland and Estonia share culturally and the genetic distance also seems wide.

[Pure ja]

Maybe, maybe not. But I can't really think of anything Finland and Estonia share culturally and the genetic distance also seems wide.

Sauna as a house building actually originated from south of the Bay of Finland :)
Not necessarily from Estonia, could have been from Livonia or even further south.

Also, I gather that you are not a fan of baltic-finnic folklore, Kalevala - Kalevipoeg, runo-regivärss, etc.

Also, the only ethnic groups around the Baltic Sea with no history of violence and wars between themselves are estonians and finns (coastal finns mostly, since estonians did not wander far inland).

There have been conflicts among different finns, and between finns and karelians, between finns and swedes, between finns and saamis, between estonians and swedes, among swedes, between estonians and danes, etc., etc. But not between estonians and finns. Think about it.

[Temujin]

The article was published in 2004. It was a response to the study "Y-Chromosomal diversity suggests the Baltic males share common Finno-Ugric speaking forefathers" published by Laitinen at al. (2002) in which authors made a blunt conclusion about Baltic males having Finno-Ugric forefathers. Authors in Laiten et al. (2002) didn't even go through a standard procedure describing Lithuanian sample used in the study.

Later, several sources cited Laitenen et al.(2002) causing what I call 'haplogroup hysteria' among ill-informed people thinking the Baltic and other countries had Siberian or Finno-Ugric ancestry. Some people still hold the opinion based solely on the distribution of Y-DNA haplogroup.

Lithuanian scientists studied the DNA of Lithunian population in 2004. "Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Lithuanians." Kasperaviciūte D et al.(2004) proportionally sampling the regions of Lithuania finding lesser frequency of N1c Y-haplogroup.

The table is from Kasperaviciūte D et al.(2004). (N1c is N3 in old nomenclature) .

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4341/lith.png



Also, there were different sub-clades of N1c discovered in the last 10 years. Lithuanians have South-Baltic subclade of N1c mostly.



Source: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/n1c1/

N1c1 haplogroup (defined by SNP M178+) is widely spread around the Baltic Sea, Volga region, the Urals and Siberia.
The subclade N1c1-L1026 is typical for the Europe. Possible place of origin for L1026+ is westward from the Urals.
Possible place of origin for L708+ is Siberia.
The subclade N1c1-L550 is spread in South-Baltic region, Scandinavia, Iberia, British Isles.
At low frequency (<1%) the haplogroup N1c1 is found in Spain, Portugal, Germany and British Isles.
There are 5 main European subclades of haplogroup N1c1:
1) North European Subclade (Z1936+,Z1935+)
2) North-Baltic Subclade (VL29+,L1022+)
3) South-Baltic Subclade (L550+,L1025+)
4) Scandinavian II (L550+,L1025-)
5) Ugric Subclade (Z1936+,L1034+)



Genome-wide studies based on autosomal DNA confirmed the genetic proximities of Lithuanians to their immediate neighbours.

Gimbutas wrote in her book in the 60s citing archeological and anthropological findings that East Baltic settled by Uralic race (further NE) and Europid race arriving to east Baltic from northern Poland.


Physical type as shown by excavated skeletons also confirms the intrusion of new people into the East Baltic area and central Russia. Skulls from graves of the Kurgan (Corded, Boat-Axe, Fat’janovo) culture differ considerably in measurement from those in the graves or settlements of the hunter-fishers of the Comb-marked and Pitted-Ware culture. Those from the graves of the Kurgan culture were long and Europoid; those from the hunter-fisher sites were of medium length or short, with wide face, flat nose, and high eye-sockets. The latter traits are generally similar to those of the Finno-Ugrian peoples of western Siberia. Furthermore, the skulls from hunter-fisher sites in Estonia have shown a certain mixed type presumed to be derived from a combination of Europoid and Mongoloid elements. Their appearance is close to that of the present Manti, Chanti, Samoyeds, and Lapps, all of which belong to the Uralic race. The Europoid skulls from the graves of the newcomers in the East Baltic area almost exactly correspond to those known from northern Poland (former East Prussia), which again indicates diffusion along the coasts of the Baltic Sea.. The skulls from the Fat’janovo graves are also very similar, and about the same type is found in the Kurgan graves of the steppe area along the lower Dnieper. The mixture of the two racial types must have started immediately, since we know several Kurgan (so-called “Boat-Axe”) graves from Estonia in which skulls with Mongoloid traits appeared.1

Source: http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbu...mbutas-02.html


In most cases, the studies on population genetics only confirmed what was already known by archeologists, anthropologists and historians.

[Temujin]

I think the bigger question would be, does Estonia share anything with Finland, except the linguistic connection.

I would go further asking : is there a Finnic or Finno-Ugric speaking population that is genetically close to Estonians?

[Hercus Monte]

That's probably partly just ignorance. There might be some old traditions we share,
like Kantele/ kanklės?
Oddly, balts are the only indo-europeans who have this instrument, If i'm not mistaken.

[Albion]

I think the bigger question would be, does Estonia share anything with Finland, except the linguistic connection.

You're ruining Karl's {wet} dream. ;)

Seriously though, I thought Estonians and Finns were very similar? Aren't Estonians just like slightly backwards Finns?

[Pure ja]

The article was published in 2004. It was a response to the study "Y-Chromosomal diversity suggests the Baltic males share common Finno-Ugric speaking forefathers" published by Laitinen at al. (2002) in which authors made a blunt conclusion about Baltic males having Finno-Ugric forefathers. Authors in Laiten et al. (2002) didn't even go through a standard procedure describing Lithuanian sample used in the study.


Thanks for the information.

OK. So Laitinen jumped the gun.
But so does the response.




Later, several sources cited Laitenen et al.(2002) causing what I call 'haplogroup hysteria' among ill-informed people thinking the Baltic and other countries had Siberian or Finno-Ugric ancestry. Some people still hold the opinion based solely on the distribution of Y-DNA haplogroup.


So do tell me, from where does that N1c of lithuanians come from???
There are only 3 routes:
1. tundra
2. forest
3. steppe



Lithuanian scientists studied the DNA of Lithunian population in 2004. "Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Lithuanians." Kasperaviciūte D et al.(2004) proportionally sampling the regions of Lithuania finding lesser frequency of N1c Y-haplogroup.


Even that lesser frequency is still at least as much as that among estonians.




Also, there were different sub-clades of N1c discovered in the last 10 years. Lithuanians have South-Baltic subclade of N1c mostly.


Did that specific N1c variant arise in place? And when?

Or did it move separately from the rest of N1c via steppe and it was just via serendipity and chance that they got together again in the Baltics?




Genome-wide studies based on autosomal DNA confirmed the genetic proximities of Lithuanians to their immediate neighbours.


Great.
The question is to whom are lithuanians more similar: to poles, ukrainians or to estonians?




Gimbutas wrote in her book in the 60s citing archeological and anthropological findings that East Baltic settled by Uralic race (further NE) and Europid race arriving to east Baltic from northern Poland.

In most cases, the studies on population genetics only confirmed what was already known by archeologists, anthropologists and historians.

I still fail to see the confirmation in the population genetics.

[Pure ja]

I would go further asking : is there a Finnic or Finno-Ugric speaking population that is genetically close to Estonians?

The nearest neighbours?

[Temujin]

So do tell me, from where does that N1c of lithuanians come from???
There are only 3 routes:
1. tundra
2. forest
3. steppe


The exact origins of N1c-L550+ is unknown.



Even that lesser frequency is still at least as much as that among estonians.


It doesn't matter so much now, as N1c-L550+ subclade is not Finno-Ugric. See more detailed answer below.



Did that specific N1c variant arise in place? And when?

Or did it move separately from the rest of N1c via steppe and it was just via serendipity and chance that they got together again in the Baltics?


The origin of N1c-L550+ clade is unknown. It's in eastern Europe. The age of N1c-L550+ would vary depending on the method used in calculating the age of the mutation. The age of the N1c subclades are likely to predate IE and Uralic languages in South Baltic.

What's important is that different ethnicities have their specific subclades of N1c. Baltic Finns (Finns, Karelian) and northern Russians have their own subclade of N1c. It's unclear which subclade of N1c Estonians have. Lithuanians, Belarusians, some Russians and eastern Poles have N1c-L550+.


Genetic journey of the N1c haplogroup Pamjav H, Nemeth E, Feher T, Volgyi A
The subgroup N1c-L550 cannot be considered Finno-Ugric origin and its carriers might have been assimilated by Indo-European groups, resulting in their spread across Europe in historical times with Vikings and Balto-Slavs.




Balto-Polish branch includes Belarusians, Ukrainians and some Russians. From memory, the frequency of L550+ : Lithuanians ~36%, Belarusians ~10%, Russians - 6%, Ukrainians < 5%, Poles ~2%.


http://s13.postimg.org/5rj6fud1j/n1c1.png (http://postimage.org/)




Great.
The question is to whom are lithuanians more similar: to poles, ukrainians or to estonians?

Neither Ukraine nor Poland (except for NE small section) nor Estonia are immediate neighbours of Lithuania. Genetically the closest populations would be Latvian, then Belarusian followed by Russian and Estonian, which are about equidistant from Lithuanian population as per MDLP World 22.



I still fail to see the confirmation in the population genetics.

Obviously, as you are not versed in the subject.

[Temujin]

The nearest neighbours?

This is the output from MDLP World 22 calculator.


Finns


1,] "Finnish" "0"
[2,] "Inkeri" "2.504"
[3,] "Karelian" "4.531"
[4,] "Finnish-South" "7.2911"
[5,] "Vepsa" "8.5411"
[6,] "Russian_North" "15.1796"
[7,] "Finnish-North" "15.8016"
[8,] "Swedish_V" "21.7113"
[9,] "Mordovian" "22.3069"
[10,] "Russian_V" "22.577"
[11,] "Komi" "23.6985"
[12,] "Mordovian_V" "23.8158"
[13,] "Tartar_Mishar" "23.9685"
[14,] "Tatar_Kryashen" "24.2132"
[15,] "Estonian" "24.2448"
[16,] "Ukrainian_V" "24.3491"
[17,] "Ukrainian-Center" "24.3746"
[18,] "Swedish" "24.7867"
[19,] "German" "24.8385"



Southern Finns

[1,] "Finnish-South" "0"
[2,] "Finnish" "7.2911"
[3,] "Finnish-North" "8.6122"
[4,] "Inkeri" "8.9022"
[5,] "Karelian" "9.1099"
[6,] "Vepsa" "11.1342"
[7,] "Russian_North" "22.0658"
[8,] "Swedish_V" "27.1857"
[9,] "Komi" "28.1642"
[10,] "Tartar_Mishar" "28.8373"
[11,] "Mordovian" "29.1695"
[12,] "Tatar_Kryashen" "29.4486"
[13,] "Russian_V" "29.7479"
[14,] "Swedish" "30.2695"
[15,] "Estonian" "30.6964"
[16,] "German" "30.7348"
[17,] "Mordovian_V" "30.7664"
[18,] "Ukrainian_V" "31.3611"
[19,] "Ukrainian-Center" "31.4041"



Karelians


[1,] "Karelian" "0"
[2,] "Vepsa" "4.2591"
[3,] "Inkeri" "4.4091"
[4,] "Finnish" "4.531"
[5,] "Finnish-South" "9.1099"
[6,] "Russian_North" "13.7568"
[7,] "Finnish-North" "16.7224"
[8,] "Mordovian" "21.3998"
[9,] "Russian_V" "22.0769"
[10,] "Estonian" "22.1937"
[11,] "Komi" "23.2794"
[12,] "Russian_Center" "23.8751"
[13,] "Mordovian_V" "23.9211"
[14,] "Tartar_Mishar" "24.2124"
[15,] "Ukrainian-Center" "24.6063"
[16,] "Russian_cossack" "24.6286"
[17,] "Ukrainian_V" "24.6927"
[18,] "Russian_South" "24.7002"
[19,] "Swedish_V" "24.7433"



Vepsa


[1,] "Vepsa" "0"
[2,] "Karelian" "4.2591"
[3,] "Inkeri" "8.2292"
[4,] "Finnish" "8.5411"
[5,] "Finnish-South" "11.1342"
[6,] "Russian_North" "15.1318"
[7,] "Finnish-North" "17.3107"
[8,] "Estonian" "22.0372"
[9,] "Mordovian" "22.9044"
[10,] "Russian_V" "23.6569"
[11,] "Russian_Center" "24.9231"
[12,] "Komi" "25.0733"
[13,] "Mordovian_V" "26.0185"
[14,] "Russian_South" "26.1507"
[15,] "Russian_cossack" "26.2002"
[16,] "Ukrainian-East" "26.3748"
[17,] "Polish" "26.4568"
[18] "Tartar_Mishar" "26.5126"
[19,] "Russian" "26.5733"



Estonians


[1,] "Estonian" "0"
[2,] "Latvian" "5.4461"
[3,] "Russian" "6.729"
[4,] "Belarusian" "7.2007"
[5,] "Russian_Center" "8.2341"
[6,] "Lithuanian" "9.3718"
[7,] "Polish" "9.8438"
[8,] "Russian_South" "11.8288"
[9,] "Russian_cossack" "12.2552"
[10,] "Ukrainian" "12.6131"
[11,] "Ukrainian-East" "12.8752"
[12,] "Russian_North" "13.1008"
[13,] "Sorb" "14.7136"
[14,] "Mordovian" "14.9416"
[15,] "Ukrainian-Center" "15.9621"
[16,] "Ukrainian-West" "18.2866"
[17,] "Vepsa" "22.0372"
[18,] "Karelian" "22.1937"
[19,] "Inkeri" "22.5087"
[20,] "Slovakian" "22.8484"
[21,] "Finnish" "24.2448"
[22,] "Czech" "24.9682"


Finns, southern Finns, Karelians and Veps are genetically close to each other, while Estonians cluster with Balts and Slavs according to these outputs.

Any formal or informal analysis that I have come across always showed Estonians clustering with Balts and Slavs. Feel free to post any study showing that Estonians are genetically closer to the neighbouring Finnic speaking populations.

[Peikko]

Sauna as a house building actually originated from south of the Bay of Finland :)
Not necessarily from Estonia, could have been from Livonia or even further south.

This forum should rules against people making stuff up and not providing sources. From wiki:
The oldest known saunas were Finnish, made from pits dug in a slope in the ground and primarily used as dwellings in winter.

[sevruk]

Estonians
Code:
[1,] "Estonian" "0"
[2,] "Latvian" "5.4461"
[3,] "Russian" "6.729"
[4,] "Belarusian" "7.2007"
[5,] "Russian_Center" "8.2341"
[6,] "Lithuanian" "9.3718"
[7,] "Polish" "9.8438"
[8,] "Russian_South" "11.8288"
[9,] "Russian_cossack" "12.2552"
[10,] "Ukrainian" "12.6131"
[11,] "Ukrainian-East" "12.8752"
[12,] "Russian_North" "13.1008"
[13,] "Sorb" "14.7136"
[14,] "Mordovian" "14.9416"
[15,] "Ukrainian-Center" "15.9621"
[16,] "Ukrainian-West" "18.2866"
[17,] "Vepsa" "22.0372"
[18,] "Karelian" "22.1937"
[19,] "Inkeri" "22.5087"
[20,] "Slovakian" "22.8484"
[21,] "Finnish" "24.2448"
[22,] "Czech" "24.9682"

I see Karl butthurt, lol

[Peikko]

Also, I gather that you are not a fan of baltic-finnic folklore, Kalevala - Kalevipoeg, runo-regivärss, etc.

Estonians just copied Kalevala from Finns, just like the national anthem.



Also, the only ethnic groups around the Baltic Sea with no history of violence and wars between themselves are estonians and finns (coastal finns mostly, since estonians did not wander far inland).

There have been conflicts among different finns, and between finns and karelians, between finns and swedes, between finns and saamis, between estonians and swedes, among swedes, between estonians and danes, etc., etc. But not between estonians and finns. Think about it.
There's never been a conflict between Finns and Balts either. Think about it.

[Permafrost]

According to Karl, Balts are fond of driving Estonian cars (as in cars bought by Estonians, not made by them)

This may be a big connection.

[Hercus Monte]

According to Karl, Balts are fond of driving Estonian cars (as in cars bought by Estonians, not made by them)

This may be a big connection.
yes, an Estonian Volkswagen is much better than a Lithuanian Volkswagen ;)

[Peikko]

But to be honest, I think Temujins results are bollocks. How can Tartars or Ukrainians be closer to Finns, than Estonians? Or Slovakians closer to Estonians, than Finns?

[Peikko]

Is this tree accurate?
http://s13.postimg.org/5rj6fud1j/n1c1.png
Since when are Hungarians Turkic (N-L1034)?

I think we need to take Temujin's posts with grain of salt.

[Temujin]

But to be honest, I think Temujins results are bollocks. How can Tartars or Ukrainians be closer to Finns, than Estonians? Or Slovakians closer to Estonians, than Finns?

The output was taken from MDLP World 22 calculator.

The population dataset used in MDLP World22 calculator: http://magnusducatus.blogspot.com/2012/09/behind-curtains-mdlp-world-22-showcase.html


=============================


This is a formal study. In the table of Fst statistics (Diagram 2) : Estonians are closer to Czechs (Fst=0.002) than to Veps (Fst=0.006). Czech and Slovaks are genetically similar. Estonians are even more closer to Russians from Kursk (Fst=0.001). Kursk is near the border of eastern Ukraine which would be similar to eastern Ukraine. The Fst for Estonians and Finns from Helsinki is 0.006. Estonians are genetically closer to Czechs than to Finns from Helsinki according the results of this study.


But if anyone has any formal or quality informal study showing that Estonians are genetically more similar to Finnic speaking populations, then please share.

===============================


Title: A Genome-Wide Analysis of Populations from European Russia Reveals a New Pole of Genetic Diversity in Northern Europe, Khrunin AV, Khokhrin DV, Filippova IN, Esko T, Nelis M, et al. (2013)
Full Text: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0058552.g003&representation=PNG_M


Abstract

Several studies examined the fine-scale structure of human genetic variation in Europe. However, the European sets analyzed represent mainly northern, western, central, and southern Europe. Here, we report an analysis of approximately 166,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms in populations from eastern (northeastern) Europe: four Russian populations from European Russia, and three populations from the northernmost Finno-Ugric ethnicities (Veps and two contrast groups of Komi people). These were compared with several reference European samples, including Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Poles, Czechs, Germans, and Italians. The results obtained demonstrated genetic heterogeneity of populations living in the region studied. Russians from the central part of European Russia (Tver, Murom, and Kursk) exhibited similarities with populations from central–eastern Europe, and were distant from Russian sample from the northern Russia (Mezen district, Archangelsk region). Komi samples, especially Izhemski Komi, were significantly different from all other populations studied. These can be considered as a second pole of genetic diversity in northern Europe (in addition to the pole, occupied by Finns), as they had a distinct ancestry component. Russians from Mezen and the Finnic-speaking Veps were positioned between the two poles, but differed from each other in the proportions of Komi and Finnic ancestries. In general, our data provides a more complete genetic map of Europe accounting for the diversity in its most eastern (northeastern) populations.



Populations

Four Russian populations (Tver, Murom, Kursk, Mezen district, Archangel oblast'), Finns (samples from Helsinki (n = 100) and Kuusamo (n = 84), Estonians (n = 100), Latvians (n = 95), Poles (n = 48), Czechs (n = 94), and Germans (n = 100). In addition, we used free genotype data from the HapMap 3 project (Italians from Tuscany (n = 88) and Han Chinese from Beijing (n = 78) and as well as from the human genome diversity panel HGDP, Russians (n = 25)


http://s22.postimg.org/dknvsokzl/bezrj8.png (http://postimage.org/)



Diagram 1 Principal component analysis of the combined autosomal genotypic data of individuals from Russia and seven European countries (Finnland, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Czech Republic, Germany and Italy.


http://s21.postimg.org/6pawkhkjb/russiangwafig3.png (http://postimage.org/)




Diagram 2

http://s23.postimg.org/g0i99gv2j/russiangwafigs7.png (http://postimage.org/)

[Temujin]

Is this tree accurate?
http://s13.postimg.org/5rj6fud1j/n1c1.png
Since when are Hungarians Turkic (N-L1034)?

I think we need to take Temujin's posts with grain of salt.

Any names could have been given to the branches. The names themselves don't matter. What is important is that different ethnicities have their own groups of N1c1 separated by several thousands of years. The diagram was taken from this article: http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/N1c1.pdf

[Peikko]

Any names could have been given to the branches. The names themselves don't matter. What is important is that different ethnicities have their own groups of N1c1. The diagram was taken from this article: http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/N1c1.pdf
Okay, it seems that the author wants to use "Turkic" for that branch:

Of the descendants of the East European group (in the 1b area), the Turkic group could have been born in the
eastern end of the Pit-Comb Ware area – it spread to the east, behind the Urals and back to Asia, where it
developed into the Turkic group

[Peikko]

Hmmm... What do you think of this Temujin?

It must be emphasized that there is no more reason to connect the Comb Ceramic Culture to the spread
of the Uralic languages, but it still can be connected to the spread of N1c1 to the Baltic Sea region. No earlier
than one millennium later the Corded Ware Culture spread to Baltia, Southwest Finland and Southern Sweden, supposedly spreading the Northwest Indo-European dialect. Only after this wave the N1c1 men of the
area (as well as those of any other haplogroup) could have begun to speak an Indo-European language. Yet it
is possible that the North European group of N1c1 participated also in the Corded Ware expansion from Poland to the more northern areas, even though the main bulk of the Corded Ware men seem to have been
R1a1.

[Temujin]

Hmmm... What do you think of this Temujin?

The Finnish author would naturally lean towards the idea that N1c1 was spread to the Baltic Sea region by Uralic speakers. But he doesn't discount the possibility the group of N1c1 participated in the Corded Ware expansion from Poland either. I read in few sources there was expansion of corded ware from northern Poland to east Baltic.

[Pure ja]

The exact origins of N1c-L550+ is unknown.


And yet you dismiss it as possibly finno-ugric.




It doesn't matter so much now, as N1c-L550+ subclade is not Finno-Ugric. See more detailed answer below.


I looked at a "more detailed answer below". Not impressed.
You are just repeating a claim, without repeating implicit assumptions.




The origin of N1c-L550+ clade is unknown. It's in eastern Europe. The age of N1c-L550+ would vary depending on the method used in calculating the age of the mutation. The age of the N1c subclades are likely to predate IE and Uralic languages in South Baltic.


So the interpretation is still wide open. And yet you are sure to claim it can't be finno-ugric.
In that case I can also be sure that is it finno-ugric.




What's important is that different ethnicities have their specific subclades of N1c. Baltic Finns (Finns, Karelian) and northern Russians have their own subclade of N1c. It's unclear which subclade of N1c Estonians have. Lithuanians, Belarusians, some Russians and eastern Poles have N1c-L550+.

Balto-Polish branch includes Belarusians, Ukrainians and some Russians. From memory, the frequency of L550+ : Lithuanians ~36%, Belarusians ~10%, Russians - 6%, Ukrainians < 5%, Poles ~2%.


If that were 100% true, then it would effectively mean zero admixture. And local continuity back to at least early bronze age.
If it isn't 100% true, then what you are saying is essentially meaningless.

The star diagram (previously in this thread) did not show lithuanians having only one subclade. Even less so estonians.




Neither Ukraine nor Poland (except for NE small section) nor Estonia are immediate neighbours of Lithuania. Genetically the closest populations would be Latvian, then Belarusian followed by Russian and Estonian, which are about equidistant from Lithuanian population as per MDLP World 22.


I was deliberately leaving out immediate neighbours.
The ones that I included should be at about equal distance from Lithuania.
I can make this even simpler for you: are lithuanians genetically closer to poles or to estonians?

[Pure ja]

This forum should rules against people making stuff up and not providing sources. From wiki:
The oldest known saunas were Finnish, made from pits dug in a slope in the ground and primarily used as dwellings in winter.

I was not talking about dugouts, nor teepees or maakoda, nor cave saunas.

[Pure ja]

Estonians just copied Kalevala from Finns, just like the national anthem.


If I were you, I wouldn't be so sure whose recorded folklore is more numerous. And btw, in a pissing contest between estonians and finns, don't count what you got from karelians.

PS. We only took back what was ours anyway. You know, the Väina-möinen (Väina meri, river Väina), Lemmin-käinen (lake Lämmijärv). Even Ilmarinen has a lake counterpart (lake Ilmen), only it isn't in Finland. The egg-hills of the creation myth: Suur ja Väike Munamägi. The depiction of the Kaali meteorite crash, etc., etc. Are you now going to claim that there is no authentic estonian folklore about the Kaali meteorite crash? You would lose that argument to the Ebavere nõiale.

Not to mention the heroes of Suur Tõll and Leigar.

Btw, I was not aware that Kalevala contained the character the Old Devil. Does it?




There's never been a conflict between Finns and Balts either. Think about it.

I did. You can thank estonians for that.

[Pure ja]

Diagram 2

http://s23.postimg.org/g0i99gv2j/russiangwafigs7.png (http://postimage.org/)

According to the distance table, Finns_HE are closest to estonians.
And Finns_Ku are also closest to estonians (besides Finns_HE, that is).
So there.

You can't just look at one direction. Finns are a known isolate.
Your tactics is cheap.

PS. If it were universal that north-eastern areas of Europe have been genetically more isolated, then lithuanians should be closer to poles than to estonians. Are they?

PPS. Livonians are part of latvians now.
Much of setos are part of russians now.
Much of vadjas / votjak are now part of russians now.
Etc., etc.

PPPS. At least some Russian geneticists now consider russians (and even more so north-russians) essentially as russian speaking finnics (even more so considering that much of Volga tatars are considered tatar-speaking uralics).

[Temujin]

According to the distance table, Finns_HE are closest to estonians.

The table doesn't show that Finns_HE are closest to Estonians. The table shows the following Fst indices for Estonians: Ru_Tver (0.001), Ru_Kursk(0.001), Ru_Me(0.002), Czechs(0.002), Veps(0.006);
Finns_Helsinki-Estonians (0.004). The greater the Fst index, the larger is the genetic distance between the populations.



You can't just look at one direction. Finns are a known isolate.
Your tactics is cheap.

There are no tactics or agenda. The scientific study I cited is showing that Estonians are genetically closer to Slavs all the way to Czech republic than to the neighbouring Finnic speaking Finns and Veps. If you have any study showing different results, then feel free to share them



PS. If it were universal that north-eastern areas of Europe have been genetically more isolated, then lithuanians should be closer to poles than to estonians. Are they?

PPS. Livonians are part of latvians now.
Much of setos are part of russians now.
Much of vadjas / votjak are now part of russians now.
Etc., etc.


Finnic languages (Baltic Finns) are younger than N1c1 subclades. This fact may provide an indication that Livonians could had been language shifters themselves. I suspect Latvians, who assimilated Livonians, would cluster much better with Slavic populations (including western Slavs) than with Finns and Veps.


PPPS. At least some Russian geneticists now consider russians (and even more so north-russians) essentially as russian speaking finnics (even more so considering that much of Volga tatars are considered tatar-speaking uralics).

Irrelevant. See the genetic distance between Czechs and Estonians (0.002), Estonians and Russians from Kursk (0.001) (Czech Rep. and Kursk weren't settled by Baltic Finns) and Estonians with Finns Helsinki (0.004), Veps (0.006).

[Temujin]

And yet you dismiss it as possibly finno-ugric.


I looked at a "more detailed answer below". Not impressed.
You are just repeating a claim, without repeating implicit assumptions.


So the interpretation is still wide open. And yet you are sure to claim it can't be finno-ugric.
In that case I can also be sure that is it finno-ugric.


If that were 100% true, then it would effectively mean zero admixture. And local continuity back to at least early bronze age.
If it isn't 100% true, then what you are saying is essentially meaningless.

The star diagram (previously in this thread) did not show lithuanians having only one subclade. Even less so estonians.


I was deliberately leaving out immediate neighbours.
The ones that I included should be at about equal distance from Lithuania.
I can make this even simpler for you: are lithuanians genetically closer to poles or to estonians?


Someone would need to interpret this 'stream of consciousness' for me.

[Pure ja]

The table doesn't show that Finns_HE are closest to Estonians. The table shows the following Fst indices for Estonians: Ru_Tver (0.001), Ru_Kursk(0.001), Ru_Me(0.002), Czechs(0.002), Veps(0.006);
Finns_Helsinki-Estonians (0.004). The greater the Fst index, the larger is the genetic distance between the populations.


You still don't get it.
Finns HE are closest to estonians, since the distance to estonians among the row of Finns HE and the column of Finns HE is the smallest (actually sharing the smallest distance with Rus HGDP). The same with Finns Ku.

Have you had any training on clustering on distance matrices?




There are no tactics or agenda. The scientific study I cited is showing that Estonians are genetically closer to Slavs all the way to Czech republic than to the neighbouring Finnic speaking Finns and Veps.


The agenda is to dismiss that finns are an isolate and that one needs to look both ways while creating a dendrogram or while clustering.




Finnic languages (Baltic Finns) are younger than N1c1 subclades.


I don't think so. There are certainly subclades of N1c that younger than finnic languages.
Even N1c-L550 has not been dated accurately enough to claim it older than finnic languages.




This fact may provide an indication that Livonians could had been language shifters themselves. I suspect Latvians, who assimilated Livonians, would cluster much better with Slavic populations (including western Slavs) than with Finns and Veps.


The Fst distance matrix does not show your suspicions.
Livonians were language shifters, they switched to latvian.




Irrelevant. See the genetic distance between Czechs and Estonians (0.002), Estonians and Russians from Kursk (0.001) (Czech Rep. and Kursk weren't settled by Baltic Finns) and Estonians with Finns Helsinki (0.004), Veps (0.006).

It very relevant.
Neither russians, nor czechs are at the inner core of europeanness - they have more (relatively recent) out-of-Europe genetics input.
Estonia is at the inner core, together with balts.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/04/so-whos-most-european-of-us-all.html

[Pure ja]

Finnic languages (Baltic Finns) are younger than N1c1 subclades. This fact may provide an indication that Livonians could had been language shifters themselves. I suspect Latvians, who assimilated Livonians, would cluster much better with Slavic populations (including western Slavs) than with Finns and Veps.


According to the distance matrix, Latvians are closest to estonians and to poles.
Latvians have more distance to Finns and to Veps.

[Pure ja]

Someone would need to interpret this 'stream of consciousness' for me.

If you can't understand it all, then just concentrate on the part concerning Lithuania.
Lithuanians should be closer to poles than to estonians. If lithuanians are closer to estonians, then that effectively means that lithuanians have always been closer to estonians, at least since the start of holocene - and that means no considerable genetic influx to Lithuania, which means that lithuanians have switched language.

[Aunt Hilda]

If you can't understand it all, then just concentrate on the part concerning Estonia.
Estonians should be closer to Finns than to Balto-slavs. If Estonians closer to Balto-slavs, then that effectively means that Estonians have always been closer to Balto-slavs, at least since the start of holocene - and that means no considerable genetic influx to Estonia, which means that Estonians have switched language.

fixed

[sevruk]

Someone would need to interpret this 'stream of consciousness' for me.

This Estonian obviously wants something prove, but not clear what ...

[Peikko]

I was not talking about dugouts, nor teepees or maakoda, nor cave saunas.
I couldn't find any evidence on your remark on saunas. Please provide sources, or I'll consider a liar.

If I were you, I wouldn't be so sure whose recorded folklore is more numerous. And btw, in a pissing contest between estonians and finns, don't count what you got from karelians.

What the fuck are you talking about? Kalevala was collected by a Finn. He collected the folklores from Finland and Karelia, not from Estonia. Some of them might have Ancient Estonian origin, but most of them not. So basically, you guys copied from us.

I did. You can thank estonians for that.
Estonian Balto-Slavs, that is.

[Temujin]

You still don't get it.
Finns HE are closest to estonians, since the distance to estonians among the row of Finns HE and the column of Finns HE is the smallest (actually sharing the smallest distance with Rus HGDP). The same with Finns Ku.

Have you had any training on clustering on distance matrices?

You know the term 'matrix'. That's impressive! Estonians (not Finns from Helsinki) are genetically closer to Latvian and Slavic populations than to Finnic from Helsinki or the Veps. Take the triangular matrix to your school teacher to explain it to you.



The agenda is to dismiss that finns are an isolate and that one needs to look both ways while creating a dendrogram or while clustering.

There is only agenda in your own mind. Veps also have been isolated? Furthermore, if Finns have been isolated the it'd mean Finns preserved their genetic structure better than non isolated populations such as Estonian.



I don't think so. There are certainly subclades of N1c that younger than finnic languages.
Even N1c-L550 has not been dated accurately enough to claim it older than finnic languages.

You need to substantiate your facts. N1c-L550 has been dated accurately as per the accepted methodologies.




The Fst distance matrix does not show your suspicions.
Livonians were language shifters, they switched to latvian.

Look at the table again.




It very relevant.
Neither russians, nor czechs are at the inner core of europeanness - they have more (relatively recent) out-of-Europe genetics input.
Estonia is at the inner core, together with balts.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/04/so-whos-most-european-of-us-all.html

At the 'core of Europeness'? Do you even understand what the author has done in his analysis? It's irrelevant showing that northern Russians assimilated Finnic populations, therefore they are similar to some Finnic population in the context, as Estonians are genetically closer to Slavs from Kursk and Czech Republic - the area never populated by any Finno-Ugric speakers.

[Temujin]

According to the distance matrix, Latvians are closest to estonians and to poles.
Latvians have more distance to Finns and to Veps.

As well as Russian populations and Czech Fst 0.003. Latvians are also close to the Belarusians on genome-wide comparison. You should get a picture by now that Estonians cluster better with Balto-Slavs than they do with Finnic speaking populations. One cannot hide the fact.

[Temujin]

If you can't understand it all, then just concentrate on the part concerning Lithuania.

I will concentrate on your intellect or rather lack of it. ;)

[Pure ja]

I want to apologise for adding confusion to the discussion.

First, specifically about the cryptic star-diagram.



The star diagram (previously in this thread) did not show lithuanians having only one subclade. Even less so estonians.


Figure 7.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0066499

I am not sure how I got onto that article, but I hastily assumed that it was referenced by someone else before in this thread.

My comment was based on Figure 7. It shows (assuming I am reading it correctly) that none of the subclades are exclusively of single ethnicity. And a single ethnicity does not contain only a single subclade. I was objecting to forcing 1:1 correspondence between a single subclade and a single ethnicity (my second mistake, if Temujin was not forcing it that way).

So the labeling of those subclades (as Baltic or Balto-Slavic or Finnic) is objectionable. But if we agree that the labeling by itself does not mean much, then I guess it is fine to label them as such.

From Figure 7 it is interesting that most other modern ethnicities have at least one large (abundant) subclade where they are the most represented. But not estonians, estonians are represented here and there, but not abundantly. And yet, in other analysis results, estonians are part of the inner core of europeanness (with balts). I suppose that the results on Figure 7 are tentative and further research would change that, but it is still interesting.

[Hercus Monte]

how did this turn into a discussion about estonia? the report barely mentions estonia.

[Pure ja]

The exact origins of N1c-L550+ is unknown.

It doesn't matter so much now, as N1c-L550+ subclade is not Finno-Ugric. See more detailed answer below.

The origin of N1c-L550+ clade is unknown. It's in eastern Europe. The age of N1c-L550+ would vary depending on the method used in calculating the age of the mutation. The age of the N1c subclades are likely to predate IE and Uralic languages in South Baltic.

What's important is that different ethnicities have their specific subclades of N1c. Baltic Finns (Finns, Karelian) and northern Russians have their own subclade of N1c. It's unclear which subclade of N1c Estonians have. Lithuanians, Belarusians, some Russians and eastern Poles have N1c-L550+.

Balto-Polish branch includes Belarusians, Ukrainians and some Russians. From memory, the frequency of L550+ : Lithuanians ~36%, Belarusians ~10%, Russians - 6%, Ukrainians < 5%, Poles ~2%.


And here from the last two paragraphs, I get the impression that Temujin suggests that over 95% of lithuanian and belarussian N1c is of subclade L550+.
I find that hard to believe (that both ethnicities are overly L550+), based on Figures 2 and 7.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0066499

Edit: Figures 6 and 7.

[Pure ja]

MDLP World 22 results seem to be in conflict with the distance matrix:

Diagram 2

http://s23.postimg.org/g0i99gv2j/russiangwafigs7.png (http://postimage.org/)

I would like to know the possible reasons.


This is the output from MDLP World 22 calculator.


Finns


1,] "Finnish" "0"
[2,] "Inkeri" "2.504"
[3,] "Karelian" "4.531"
[4,] "Finnish-South" "7.2911"
[5,] "Vepsa" "8.5411"
[6,] "Russian_North" "15.1796"
[7,] "Finnish-North" "15.8016"
[8,] "Swedish_V" "21.7113"
[9,] "Mordovian" "22.3069"
[10,] "Russian_V" "22.577"
[11,] "Komi" "23.6985"
[12,] "Mordovian_V" "23.8158"
[13,] "Tartar_Mishar" "23.9685"
[14,] "Tatar_Kryashen" "24.2132"
[15,] "Estonian" "24.2448"
[16,] "Ukrainian_V" "24.3491"
[17,] "Ukrainian-Center" "24.3746"
[18,] "Swedish" "24.7867"
[19,] "German" "24.8385"



Southern Finns

[1,] "Finnish-South" "0"
[2,] "Finnish" "7.2911"
[3,] "Finnish-North" "8.6122"
[4,] "Inkeri" "8.9022"
[5,] "Karelian" "9.1099"
[6,] "Vepsa" "11.1342"
[7,] "Russian_North" "22.0658"
[8,] "Swedish_V" "27.1857"
[9,] "Komi" "28.1642"
[10,] "Tartar_Mishar" "28.8373"
[11,] "Mordovian" "29.1695"
[12,] "Tatar_Kryashen" "29.4486"
[13,] "Russian_V" "29.7479"
[14,] "Swedish" "30.2695"
[15,] "Estonian" "30.6964"
[16,] "German" "30.7348"
[17,] "Mordovian_V" "30.7664"
[18,] "Ukrainian_V" "31.3611"
[19,] "Ukrainian-Center" "31.4041"



Karelians


[1,] "Karelian" "0"
[2,] "Vepsa" "4.2591"
[3,] "Inkeri" "4.4091"
[4,] "Finnish" "4.531"
[5,] "Finnish-South" "9.1099"
[6,] "Russian_North" "13.7568"
[7,] "Finnish-North" "16.7224"
[8,] "Mordovian" "21.3998"
[9,] "Russian_V" "22.0769"
[10,] "Estonian" "22.1937"
[11,] "Komi" "23.2794"
[12,] "Russian_Center" "23.8751"
[13,] "Mordovian_V" "23.9211"
[14,] "Tartar_Mishar" "24.2124"
[15,] "Ukrainian-Center" "24.6063"
[16,] "Russian_cossack" "24.6286"
[17,] "Ukrainian_V" "24.6927"
[18,] "Russian_South" "24.7002"
[19,] "Swedish_V" "24.7433"



Vepsa


[1,] "Vepsa" "0"
[2,] "Karelian" "4.2591"
[3,] "Inkeri" "8.2292"
[4,] "Finnish" "8.5411"
[5,] "Finnish-South" "11.1342"
[6,] "Russian_North" "15.1318"
[7,] "Finnish-North" "17.3107"
[8,] "Estonian" "22.0372"
[9,] "Mordovian" "22.9044"
[10,] "Russian_V" "23.6569"
[11,] "Russian_Center" "24.9231"
[12,] "Komi" "25.0733"
[13,] "Mordovian_V" "26.0185"
[14,] "Russian_South" "26.1507"
[15,] "Russian_cossack" "26.2002"
[16,] "Ukrainian-East" "26.3748"
[17,] "Polish" "26.4568"
[18] "Tartar_Mishar" "26.5126"
[19,] "Russian" "26.5733"



Estonians


[1,] "Estonian" "0"
[2,] "Latvian" "5.4461"
[3,] "Russian" "6.729"
[4,] "Belarusian" "7.2007"
[5,] "Russian_Center" "8.2341"
[6,] "Lithuanian" "9.3718"
[7,] "Polish" "9.8438"
[8,] "Russian_South" "11.8288"
[9,] "Russian_cossack" "12.2552"
[10,] "Ukrainian" "12.6131"
[11,] "Ukrainian-East" "12.8752"
[12,] "Russian_North" "13.1008"
[13,] "Sorb" "14.7136"
[14,] "Mordovian" "14.9416"
[15,] "Ukrainian-Center" "15.9621"
[16,] "Ukrainian-West" "18.2866"
[17,] "Vepsa" "22.0372"
[18,] "Karelian" "22.1937"
[19,] "Inkeri" "22.5087"
[20,] "Slovakian" "22.8484"
[21,] "Finnish" "24.2448"
[22,] "Czech" "24.9682"


Finns, southern Finns, Karelians and Veps are genetically close to each other, while Estonians cluster with Balts and Slavs according to these outputs.

Any formal or informal analysis that I have come across always showed Estonians clustering with Balts and Slavs. Feel free to post any study showing that Estonians are genetically closer to the neighbouring Finnic speaking populations.

[Pure ja]

yes, an Estonian Volkswagen is much better than a Lithuanian Volkswagen ;)

For a Lithuanian, that is! ;)

[Pure ja]

I couldn't find any evidence on your remark on saunas. Please provide sources, or I'll consider a liar.


I will look for it, but not today.




What the fuck are you talking about? Kalevala was collected by a Finn.


What has that got to do with anything?

I might just note that he did not have a finnic name. Neither did the authors of Kalevipoeg.
Again, irrelevant.




He collected the folklores from Finland and Karelia, not from Estonia.


Actually he collected folklore from Estonia as well, later.
There is a considerable overlap of stories, with a lot of variation both within and between baltic-finnic ethnic groups.
Your shame (and loss) if you are unaware of that.



Some of them might have Ancient Estonian origin, but most of them not. So basically, you guys copied from us.


Copied what exactly?
The name of Kaali?
Kalevan, as the old name of Tallinn?
Väina meri?
River Väina?
The creation myth?




Estonian Balto-Slavs, that is.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

[Pure ja]

fixed

You misapplied the pattern, so you failed.

If finns are a relative isolate (on a north-south axis), then estonians are closer not with finns, but with estonian southern neighbours.
If estonians are a relative isolate (on a north-south axis), then latvians should be closer not with estonians, but with latvian southern neighbours.
If lithuanians are a relative isolate (on a north-south axis), then lithuanians should be closer not with latvians and estonians, but with lithuanian southern neighbours (poles and belorussians).
If belorussians are a relative isolate (on a north-south axis), then belorussians should be closer not with lithuanians and latvians, but with belorussian southern neighbours (ukrainians).

[Aunt Hilda]

that's not teh pattern of my choice + I was trolling you.

[Pure ja]

Estonians (not Finns from Helsinki) are genetically closer to Latvian and Slavic populations than to Finnic from Helsinki or the Veps.


Notice the "Finnic from Helsinki or the Veps". They do not represent the whole finnics, they do not even represent the whole baltic-finnics. They have represented over half the baltic-finnics only after the Livonian War. And btw, the MATRIX shows that finns from Helsinki are still closer to estonians, than to Veps.




Veps also have been isolated?


Yes and no. Veps have got considerably more input from east and north-east.




Furthermore, if Finns have been isolated the it'd mean Finns preserved their genetic structure better than non isolated populations such as Estonian.


Could be. But it doesn't show up on the europeanness map.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/04/so-whos-most-european-of-us-all.html

So finns at least have more input that is classified / mapped as non-european.
EDIT: Or more of local evolution (genetic drift).



You need to substantiate your facts. N1c-L550 has been dated accurately as per the accepted methodologies.


So what is the dating and what are the bounds?
And what are the assumptions?




At the 'core of Europeness'? Do you even understand what the author has done in his analysis?


In general, yes.
All models are wrong, but some are useful.



It's irrelevant showing that northern Russians assimilated Finnic populations, therefore they are similar to some Finnic population in the context, as Estonians are genetically closer to Slavs from Kursk and Czech Republic - the area never populated by any Finno-Ugric speakers.

Kursk is actually debatable, it could well have been populated by finno-ugric populations.
For Czech, one would have to appeal to mesolithic homogeneity. Or point to the conflicting results from the MDLP World 22 calculator.

Also, the resolution of the data behind the distance matrix is not enough to draw conclusions.

[Pure ja]

As well as Russian populations and Czech Fst 0.003. Latvians are also close to the Belarusians on genome-wide comparison. You should get a picture by now that Estonians cluster better with Balto-Slavs than they do with Finnic speaking populations.


Contemporary balto-slavs and contemporary remaining Finnic populations (soon there will be only two baltic-finnic populations, sadly).
Perhaps I was not clear that I do not deny it.

But I disagree with some of the conclusions.

[Pure ja]

I will concentrate on your intellect or rather lack of it. ;)

Well, you should concentrate harder :p

[Pure ja]

how did this turn into a discussion about estonia? the report barely mentions estonia.

Why is the subject line referring to Finns, and not to finnics or baltic-finns?

[Hercus Monte]

Why is the subject line referring to Finns, and not to finnics or baltic-finns?
because the thread was supposed to be about Finns, not finnics ir baltic-finns.

[Pure ja]

because the thread was supposed to be about Finns, not finnics ir baltic-finns.

So the report actually discusses about Finnish ethnic groups in Lithuania and the Baltics south of the Bay of Finland?
Superb!

EDIT: now what about that original name of Klaipeda = Kaloi+pede ?

[Hercus Monte]

^ don't hate the player, hate the game :rolleyes:



EDIT: now what about that original name of Klaipeda = Kaloi+pede ?

sigh... what does this have to do with the report? this report is about finns(a.k.a. people who live in finland) and balts. not the alleged ''finnicness'' of western Lithuania and Latvia.

[Pure ja]

^ don't hate the player, hate the game :rolleyes:

sigh... what does this have to do with the report? this report is about finns(a.k.a. people who live in finland) and balts. not the alleged ''finnicness'' of western Lithuania and Latvia.

The two "Finnish" groups in that study are labeled as 'Estonian' and 'Karelian' (see also Figure 1).
I guess you should ask from Mr.KnowItAll, because I wouldn't know anything about that ("you (estonians) stealing from us (karelians)", both labeled as Finnish).