Y DNA spread by Indo Europeans (R1a1a1 M417, R1b1a2a1 L51) (R1b1a2a L23?, R1b1a1 M73?, Etc?)

[Fire Haired]

Archaeology and common Y DNA in modern Indo European speakers which age estimates show migrations starting in certain areas 7,000-5,000ybp. Show that Indo European languages most likely started, or took off and spread from these areas.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37024&d=1378166767


I probably went to south on the map because that is were R1b1a2a L23 proto Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 father is most popular and may have originated. Traditionally in the Kurgan theory (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKurgan_ hypothesis&ei=IyglUsalDeeayAGJ8oHoAg&usg=AFQjCNF40cSw0rgglZQTleNfEJPdXjqERQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) proto Indo European languages (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FProto-Indo-European_language&ei=PiglUuaCJ8nEyQGlpIDQBA&usg=AFQjCNE6Cogc3PPdBeU7yhGOrFtwuDXqPA&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc)began around Bug Dniester culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug-Dniester_culture)in Ukraine about 7,000ybp and in Yamna culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FYamna_c ulture&ei=oSglUoiOLoPuyQHK1oGQAw&usg=AFQjCNHb6Rh3o3cAWFpKHCAPoWXk2Xd4rQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) in Russia and Dnieper Donets Ukraine starting about 5,600ybp. Since there are 6,000 year old Kurgans in both southeast Poland and Caucus that kind of extends were very very early Indo Europeans were to the Caucus and north mid east and deeper in Europe.

So far we know that R1a1a1 M417 is for sure a proto Indo European marker and is from the Dnieper Donets and Yamna Ukraine Russia area. Since about 30-50% Balto Slavic speakers have R1a1a1b1 Z283 and anywhere from 10-40% Indo Iranian speakers have R1a1a1b2 Z93. The age estimates for them and their father R1a1a1b point to bronze age migrations from 6,000-4,000ybp.

Also Y DNA from supposedly proto Balto Slavic culture Corded ware (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCorded_ Ware_culture&ei=1CklUvTLOaveyQHN9oBY&usg=AFQjCNG8a_yp5nZRFuoQQMXp3bhNuofzOw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc)two from 4,800ybp in Poland were G and I or J and two from 4,600ybp in central Germany were at least R1a1a M17. Seven Y DNA samples from 4,000 year old Tarim mummies in west China who were suspected to be connected with early Indo Iranian speakers all were at least R1a1a M17. Four 3,800-3,400 year old Y DNA samples from supposedly early Indo Iranian Andronovo culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAndrono vo_culture&ei=-yklUuX1JcemygGUhoDQCQ&usg=AFQjCNEaLFVEgbJw5cLp6qYkTwoYbCeJyQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) in central Siberia three had at least R1a1a M17 and one had C probably from Mongoloid Siberians.

So Y DNA from cultures the Kurgan theory say were early Indo Iranian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIndo-Iranian_languages&ei=DiolUuj_NIWMyQHO6oDIBQ&usg=AFQjCNEjivmBbuBpErAymLV4YbmDH6a6Zw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) or early Balto Slavic (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBalto-Slavic_languages&ei=TColUuS0JIz8yAGRmoHABA&usg=AFQjCNFNKjIgFdjI5to8Gaj7DaCaF77xsg&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) speakers all back up the idea that R1a1a1 M417 is a early early Indo European Y DNA haplogroup from the Ukraine-Russia Bug Dniester (http://Bug Dniester culture)-Yamna (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FYamna_c ulture&ei=oSglUoiOLoPuyQHK1oGQAw&usg=AFQjCNHb6Rh3o3cAWFpKHCAPoWXk2Xd4rQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) cultures. There is also a western European branch most likely from Germanic Italo Celts R1a1a1a L664. The proto Germanic Italo Celts were dominated by R1b1a2a L23 then R1b1a2a1 L51 but they probably picked up some R1a1a1 M417 since they were so close to other Indo Europeans in Russia Ukraine area 5,000-6,000ybp. So it seems they then formed their own branch. So the common ancestor of all those Indo European R1a branches is R1a1a1 M417.

Here is a migration map of Indo European R1a1a1 M417 made by Eupedia.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg (http://www.theapricity.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg)
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a-tree.gif
The other just about for sure Y DNA that spread with Indo European languages is Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51. R1b L51-L11 Germanic Italo Celtc: Ruler and Conquers of Bronze-Iron age west Europe. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe)What is weird is unlike R1a1a1 M417 which shows its origin in the traditional areas by the kurgan theory to be the Indo European homeland. R1b1a2a1 L51 father's seems to be from the middle east around Iraq, Anatolia, and the Caucus. It's father R1b1a2a L23 is centered in those areas and popular in the Balkans in southeastern Europe. I could not find any other info about the origin of R1b1a2a L23 but from what I have seen people say it comes from a migration out of the middle east.

Since there is a 6,000 year old Kurgan in the Caucus and Maykop culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMaykop_ culture&ei=vyklUsu5LuLsyQHjsoGYDA&usg=AFQjCNEJiEUXAfp0f05JY0204jjHYg-qoA&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) (5,700-4,500ybp) in the Caucus and north eastern Anatolia. Shows very early Indo Europeans were in that area which could be were this R1b is from. And that those people had constant trade and contact with the Bug Dniester - Yamna people in Russia and Ukraine. I don't really know but since Germanic Italo Celt father R1b1a2a L23 is so popular even as south as Iraq makes me think that possibly Maykop had a origin around there and maybe proto Indo European or proto proto Indo European languages originated around that area.

R1b1a2a L23 then could be considered as a Indo European Y DNA haplogroup. But since it is so popular in areas that were never Indo European well I guess the Kurds and the Medes but they were Indo Iranians and we know have nothing to do with R1b1a2a L23. I think most is not Indo European. R1b1a2a2 Z2103 might be connected with Anatolian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages), Greek (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGreek_l anguage&ei=FislUrf_L-jIyAGz44HIAg&usg=AFQjCNF3buBgV4ygcNq-TUsCid3uYWKFjw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc), and Indo European languages around the Balkans like Thracian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThracia ns&ei=LCslUpniMuOIyAHVwoC4Aw&usg=AFQjCNE_gqpMEdYAQZLn60X-67mC07XLiQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc)-Dacian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDacia&ei=RCslUuOdGeygyAGV34HQBw&usg=AFQjCNEQuRYEG515_49cbozxaglm7TVAow&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) and Illyrian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIllyria ns&ei=XCslUt_AMcaiyAGr8oCgCA&usg=AFQjCNEya02ZV1ehEXr5LrjIrBJw94nA0A&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc). Also R1b M73 shows connection of spreading with Indo Iranian languages but probably did not originate with Indo European speakers like R1a1a1 M417 and R1b1a2a1 L51 probably did.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif

Eupedia migration map of R1b. I dis agree with R1b1a2 M269 originating in Europe. I think R1b made the same type of migration out of the mid east to Europe but as R1b1a2a L23.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

Here is a map of R1a in Europe. Almost all is under Indo European R1a1a1 M417. The vast majority is under Balto Slavic (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBalto-Slavic_languages&ei=0wElUtTbEZCgyAHtqIDACg&usg=AFQjCNFNKjIgFdjI5to8Gaj7DaCaF77xsg&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) Corded ware culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCorded_ Ware_culture&ei=4QElUtroO4mqyQGPuYGABA&usg=AFQjCNG8a_yp5nZRFuoQQMXp3bhNuofzOw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) R1a1a1b1 Z283.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif
Here is a total map of R1a. Seems like who ever made this had less info than Eupedia. Almost all is under Indo European r1a1a1 M416 i already explained in Europe for Asia and parts of north eastern Europe it is just about 100% Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93.
http://www.hartleyfamily.org.uk/haplogroupR1a.JPG

Map of R1b in Europe. Almost all is under Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 except in the mid east, southeastern Europe, and Mediterranean were this is some R1b1a2a L23.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

Map of Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a1 S116/P312.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif

Map of Germanic R1b1a2a1a2 S21/U106.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

U can see by these maps Indo European Y DNA is extremely popular. The reason is Indo Europeans spread their language, culture, and religion almost only by conquest. So the native men were killed way more than the native women because they fought in wars and were seen as a threat. Also when Indo Europeans won they could force as many native women to be their wives. So they had way more offspring with the native women than Indo European women had with native men and in pretty much all cultures women are only allowed to have one husband while in some and alot of ancient ones men could have about as many wives and mistresses as they wanted. High ranking people and Chiefs sometimes had over 1,000 women. So this lead to Indo European speaking people direct male lineage to be heavily Indo European.

Indo European speaking people dont mainly descend from the first people to speak their language almost all mainly descend from people who lived in that area before their language spread, Except for maybe people in the British isles.

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So far we know that R1a1a1 M417 is for sure a proto Indo European marker and is from the Dnieper Donets and Yamna Ukraine Russia area. Since about 30-50% Balto Slavic speakers have R1a1a1b1 Z283 and anywhere from 10-40% Indo Iranian speakers have R1a1a1b2 Z93. The age estimates for them and their father R1a1a1b point to bronze age migrations from 6,000-4,000ybp.

How much R1a is found in Armenians, ancient Latiums, ancient Mycenaan Greeks ancient Albanians, Celts, all considered as Indo-European speakers? 2%-5% ?


So the common ancestor of all those Indo European r1a branches is R1a1a1 M417.

Look at the placement of R1b1* which is 2 steps above L23, that is Mede, Gilaki/Talysh/Lur, in other words, ancient Iranian territory, bordering Iran/Iraq/Caucasus, and where R1b L23 is found.Hardly any R1a is found in Northwest Iran and Armenia when compared to R1b, why is that significant?
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg[/QUOTE]

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R1b1a2a L23 then could be considered as a indo European Y DNA haplogroup. But since it is so popular in areas that were never Indo European well I guess the Kurds and the Medes but they were Indo Iranians and we know have nothing to do with R1b1a2a L23.


The original source for different words used to call the Median people, their language and homeland is a directly transmitted Old Iranian geographical name which is attested as the Old Persian "Māda-" (sing. masc.).[17] The meaning of this word is not precisely established.[17][18] The linguist W. Skalmowski proposes a relation with the proto-Indoeuropean word "med(h)-" meaning "central, suited in the middle" by referring to Old Indic "madhya-" and Old Iranian "maidiia-" both carrying the same meaning[17] and having descendants including Latin medium, Greek méso, and German mittel.


In the sources from Achaemenid Iran and specifically from the Behistun Inscription (2.76, 77-78) the capital of Media is named as "Hamgmatāna-" in Old Persian (and as Elamite "Agmadana-", Babylonian "Agamtanu-", etc.). The classical authors transmitted this as Ecbatana. This site is the modern Hamadan province.[24]


http://klio.uoregon.edu/maps/gr/archaic/medes-empire.jpg

[Fire Haired]

How much R1a is found in Armenians, ancient Latiums, ancient Mycenaan Greeks ancient Albanians, Celts, all considered as Indo-European speakers? 2%-5% ?

Not all Indo European languages spread with R1a1a1 M417. Germanic Italo Celtic languages which include Celts spread with almost only R1b1a2a1 L51 then it formed into R1b1a2a1a then Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a1 S116/P312 and Germanic R1b1a2a1a2 S21/U106. click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe) for my opinon on how Germanic Italo Celts spread acroos western Europe and southern Scandinavia starting 5,000ybp. click here (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml) for a super detailed explanation from an expert.

For Greeks and all those other Indo European people it is a more complicated story. The spread of Germanic Italo Celtic, Indo Iranian, and Balto Slavic languages has pretty much been figured out with Archeiology and Y DNA. But all the others are still king of mystery's the R1a1a1 that does exist in those people defintley has some type of Indo European origin but maybe from another group of Indo Europeans.


Look at the placement of R1b1* which is 2 steps above L23, that is Mede, Gilaki/Talysh/Lur, in other words, ancient Iranian territory, bordering Iran/Iraq/Caucasus, and where R1b L23 is found.Hardly any R1a is found in Northwest Iran and Armenia when compared to R1b, why is that significant?
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg
R1b1 is pre pre Indo European probably Paleoithic so from over 10,000ybp. So what at some point it's decendant R1b1a2a1 L51 had something to do with Indo Europeans. Also the ethnic groups of Iranians, Iraqis, or whatever had not formed yet sure everyones bloodline goes back to the begging of time but a ethnic group is different. The only for sure Indo European branch of r1b is Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 its father R1b1a2a probably has something to do with Indo Europeans and might be connected with Greek, Antolian, Thracen-Dacen, and Iyrillan Indo European languages in southeastern Europe and Antolia and also maybe Armenian.
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[QUOTE=Silesian;1872538]The original source for different words used to call the Median people, their language and homeland is a directly transmitted Old Iranian geographical name which is attested as the Old Persian "Māda-" (sing. masc.).[17] The meaning of this word is not precisely established.[17][18] The linguist W. Skalmowski proposes a relation with the proto-Indoeuropean word "med(h)-" meaning "central, suited in the middle" by referring to Old Indic "madhya-" and Old Iranian "maidiia-" both carrying the same meaning[17] and having descendants including Latin medium, Greek méso, and German mittel.




http://klio.uoregon.edu/maps/gr/archaic/medes-empire.jpg

The medeian people are Indo Iranian speakers. proto Indo Iranian languages would have spread first out of northern Russia to central asia with Abashevo and Sinshta cultures 5,000-4,500ybp. They are dominated by R1a1a1b2 Z93 so they group with the Dniper Donets- Yamna Russia-Ukriane R1a1a1 M417 Indo Europeans like Balto Slavs. Which makes me think maybe Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic languages form their own branch. Soall the R1b they picked up besides R1b1a1 M73 they got from inter marring with people lter own. Indo Iranian languages did not reach Iran till about 3,500ybp the people that did decended from Adronovo culture same culture the Sycthians who dominated central asia mainly around the Caspien sea came out of. Medes were a western migration out of Indo Iranians who already were in Iran so they are a kind of recent group of Indo Europeans in that area around 3,000-3,500 years I guess that is not that recent.

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Not all Indo European languages spread with R1a1a1 M417.

Okay lets reason on this. Where do you place PIE ?

[Fire Haired]

Okay lets reason on this. Where do you place PIE ?

What i showed on the map. Dneiper Donets Ukriane to southern Russia, Caucus, and northern Antolia and possibly as south as Iraq. The R1a1a1 M417 spread with Indo European languages comes from the Dneiper Donets Yamna Ukriane Russia world. So Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic language defintley came from that area. Also in the Kurgen theory that is were Indo European language are suppose to have begun around 8,000-6,000ybp so Russia and Ukraine and defintley very very early Indo european areas possibly proto Indo European languages began.

But there are 6,000 year old Kurgen burails in southeast Poland (Near Ukriane) and Caucus. Also the Maykop culture (5,700-4,500ybp) in the Cauus areas also had Kurgen burails, wheel's, and domesticated horses they defintley in my opinon were Indo Europeans. And the Caucus had very early Indo European things happened over 6,000ybp like Russia and Ukriane. And since Germanic Italo Celts R1b1a2a1 L51 father R1b1a2a L23 is centered around the North mid east and Iraq it;s source could be those north mid eastern and caucus Indo European people. So proto Indo European language and very very early Indo European stuff so 8,000-5,500ybp seems to all be around Ukriane, Russia, Caucus, and north mid east.

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What i showed on the map. Dneiper Donets Ukriane to southern Russia,

Perfect. So you are in agreement with this video @ 3:45 J.P Mallory sais he has complete distrust for genetic evidence but goes on to cite it in his work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI

Are you generally in agreement with these theories as being close to your own?

In a very simple and basic theory this diagram would be something similar to what your ideas reflect about R1a and the spread of Proto Indo European languages?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/IE_expansion.png

[Fire Haired]

That map in my opinon since it was made before the genetic stuff was figured out has alot of errors. They show Italic, Celtic, and Germanic languages migrating seperatly. Even though it is official that Italic and Celtic languges go back to a common ancestor. Also Now we knwo the signature lineage of Germanic languages R1b S21/U106 goes back to the same father as the signature Italo Celtic lineage R1b S116/P312 which connects the two languages.

They dont show any migration for balto Slavic languages which now we know come from Corded ware culture and their signature Y DNA is R1a1a1b2 Z283, Y DNA samples form Corded ware culture, and age estimates totally back that up. The migrations it shows for Indo Iranian languages i guess i agree it basicalley shows the same thing as Eupedia's Indo European R1a1a1 M417 migration map. Except i dont think they realize that Indo Iranian languages used to be spoke all over central asia even in central Siberia and west China as far back as 4,000ybp. For the Hittites and Greeks i guess that is pretty much the only way they could have migrated but they dont really show anything for Thracen (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThracia ns&ei=viYlUsD-AeuGyQGrkoDABQ&usg=AFQjCNE_gqpMEdYAQZLn60X-67mC07XLiQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc)-Dacens (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDacians&ei=4SYlUqa0C8viyAHjuIDwCQ&usg=AFQjCNFw8STjBrK2xK73DCIH-BaI8uJieg&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc), and Iyraliians (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIllyria ns&ei=ISclUtmhFum2yAHk_4HIAQ&usg=AFQjCNEya02ZV1ehEXr5LrjIrBJw94nA0A&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc).

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That map in my opinon since it was made before the genetic stuff was figured out has alot of errors. They show Italic, Celtic, and Germanic languages migrating seperatly. Even though it is official that Italic and Celtic languges go back to a common ancestor.

The one arrow depicted in the diagram showing a migration going down from the center through the Caucasus. Which branch of R1a spread Digor language and which branch spread Armenian R1a Z93 or R1a Z283?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/IE_expansion.png

Would you expect to see a lot of R1a among the Indo European speaking Alans-Ossets of Digor if your heimat is correct?
There is not 1 in this project? But if we could find one, which branch should it belong to R1a Z93 or R1a Z283?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults

What about the Indo-European speaking Armenians, would you expect to see a fair amount of R1a among them, either R1a Z93 or R1a Z283?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults
4 samples of Z283 from Turkey and 9 R-Z93, are these the remnants of the migration that spread the Indo-European language to the Armenians, but cannot be found in the Ossets of Digor who are within distance of the proposed P.I.E heimat? Or do you have another branch of R1a in mind?

[Fire Haired]

Since Digor is a sub branch of Ossetian which is a sub branch of Sycthian which is a sub branch of Indo Iranian. Their R1a branch is Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93. I would except to see at least some R1a1a1b2 Z93 in Digor's. But since remains of early Indo Iranians including Scythian's had mainly blonde hair and light eyes and also early Indo Iranians would have had aloso had alot of red hair click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90089-Where-did-proto-Indo-Iranian-speakers-ancestry-orignate). and that Ossetians dont have either of these features and that Sycthians were nearly killed off from 2,000-1,000ybp. Maybe their language survived but not their blood so i would also not be suprised of they have very little R1a1a1b2 Z93.

I dont know if Armenian has a R1a group R1a1a1b1 Z283 is Balto Slavic R1a1a1b2 Z93 is Indo Iranian and it seems very very little R1a1a1a L664 spread with Germanic languages but very little.

The 4 R1a Z283 and 9 R1a Z93 in Turkey can defintley be explained by inter marriage with eastern Europeans and Indo Iranian speakers in Turkey and around Turkey like Kurds. It seems like R1a Z283 is only Balto Slavic and R1a Z93 is only Indo Iranian. clcik here according to this it is common to find eastern European R1a that is ancestral to INdo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 meaning R1a1a1b and R1a1a1 M417 are still found in eastern Europe today pretty commonly. It also said R1a1a M17 most likley place of origin is Ukriane.

Not all Indo European languages spread with R1a or mainly R1a.

[Sikeliot]

R1 would have branched off into R1a and R1b, and both were likely carried by Indo-Europeans. But we have to remember that Indo-European migrants would have been a minority of the populations they conquered and brought their languages to.

[Fire Haired]

R1 would have branched off into R1a and R1b, and both were likely carried by Indo-Europeans. But we have to remember that Indo-European migrants would have been a minority of the populations they conquered and brought their languages to.

Y DNA R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M207) was orignalley Mongliod it is the brother of Q (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242) and cousins of N (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)) and O (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175). At some point they had to inter marry with Caucasians i dont know if R1 was born in Caucasians or Mongoloids. R1b R1a i have seen age estimates as about 18,000 year sold about 10,000 years after proto Indo European language would have begun. The only for sure R1b branch to originate with Indo Europeans and spread with Indo Europeans is Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51. Also it seems like R1b1a1 M73 could have spread with Indo Iranian languages but did not originate with them. Proto Indo European or very early Indo European or later converted into being Indo European R1a branch is R1a1a1 M417 and all of its decedents.

That is true Germanic speakers spread Y DNA I2a2 to Scandinavia and other parts of Europe and they spread some Y DNA I1 in many parts of Europe.

[ALL]

Indo Iranians including Scythian's had mainly blonde hair and light eyes and also early Indo Iranians would have had aloso had alot of red hair and that Ossetians dont have either of these features and that Sycthians were nearly killed off from 2,000-1,000ybp. Maybe their language survived but not their blood so i would also not be suprised of they have very little R1a1a1b2 Z93.

You put a lot of emphasis on blonde hair/red hair and blue eyes. What area have the highest rates of blonde/red hair and blue eyes? R1a Z283 or R1a Z93?




I dont know if Armenian has a R1a group R1a1a1b1 Z283 is Balto Slavic R1a1a1b2 Z93 is Indo Iranian and it seems very very little R1a1a1a L664 spread with Germanic languages but very little.

From which branch of R1a did the Armenians and Germans get there language R1a- Z93 or R1a L664?


The 4 R1a Z283 and 9 R1a Z93 in Turkey can defintley be explained by inter marriage with eastern Europeans and Indo Iranian speakers in Turkey and around Turkey like Kurds.

Since you bring up Turkey/Anatolia which branch of R1a, z93 or z283 did the Hittites and there language come from?
Are they one of the oldest Indo- European speaking groups? Were the blonde hair red hair blue eyed balto slavics older than the Hittites?


It seems like R1a Z283 is only Balto Slavic and R1a Z93 is only Indo Iranian. clcik here according to this it is common to find eastern European R1a that is ancestral to INdo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 meaning R1a1a1b and R1a1a1 M417 are still found in eastern Europe today pretty commonly. It also said R1a1a M17 most likley place of origin is Ukriane.

So R1a1a M17 is from Ukraine however it is not found in Ossetians because the "blood line died out", is this a correct assumption of why there is very little found in Ossestians, since they do not have red hair and blue eyes, as opposed to the Balto Slavic people?


Not all Indo European languages spread with R1a or mainly R1a.

However they evolved within R1a region? So Armenian/Northwestern Iranian[ancient Mede] Hittite, ancient Greek, ancient Latin, ancient Germanic, ancient Celtic all come from Southern Russia Ukraine which consisted of mainly blue eyed blonde red hair peoples, either from R1a Z283 or R1a Z93 is that a correct assumption of your theory?

[Peikko]

Blond hair and blue eyes came from the indigenous Europeans, not from indo-europeans.

[Fire Haired]

Blond hair and blue eyes came from the indigenous Europeans, not from indo-europeans.

Indo European languages probably began on what i showed on the map.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37024&d=1378166767

There is a very good chance the first Indo European speakers were white and would have had at least some blonde hair. The Indo Europeans were not a race the early ones 6,000ybp in Russia would have been a mix of the native people in that area the ones in northeastern Anatolia would have been a mix of native people in that area. 3,800-3,400ybp DNA from early Indo Iranian Andronovo culture in central Siberia two out of four had blonde hair and light eyes. later Indo Iranian remains the majority had blonde hair and light eyes. The proto Indo Iranian speakers most likely had mainly blonde hair and light eyes and they had from what we know nothing to do with spreading indo European languages in Europe. So of course many early Indo European groups in Russia and Ukraine would have had some blonde hair.

Dif INdo European groups were probably mainly descended from very diff people. There were probably many diff ethnic groups around Russia Ukriane, and north mid east 6,000-8,000ybp. The proof in my opinion is DNA from early Indo Iranians show they had mainly blonde hair and light eyes DNA from 5,000-6,000ybp remains of Yamna people(their father culture) in southern Ukraine and Russia had very dark eyes and i would guess dark hair and the German scientists did not release that much but said they were very unrelated to those early Indo Iranians. This probably means there were diff types of Yamna people who were a mix of the native people that lived in those areas before them.

[Peikko]

Indo European languages probably began on what i showed on the map.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37024&d=1378166767

There is a very good chance the first Indo European speakers were white and would have had at least some blonde hair. The Indo Europeans were not a race the early ones 6,000ybp in Russia would have been a mix of the native people in that area the ones in northeastern Anatolia would have been a mix of native people in that area. 3,800-3,400ybp DNA from early Indo Iranian Andronovo culture in central Siberia two out of four had blonde hair and light eyes. later Indo Iranian remains the majority had blonde hair and light eyes. The proto Indo Iranian speakers most likely had mainly blonde hair and light eyes and they had from what we know nothing to do with spreading indo European languages in Europe. So of course many early Indo European groups in Russia and Ukraine would have had some blonde hair.

Dif INdo European groups were probably mainly descended from very diff people. There were probably many diff ethnic groups around Russia Ukriane, and north mid east 6,000-8,000ybp. The proof in my opinion is DNA from early Indo Iranians show they had mainly blonde hair and light eyes DNA from 5,000-6,000ybp remains of Yamna people(their father culture) in southern Ukraine and Russia had very dark eyes and i would guess dark hair and the German scientists did not release that much but said they were very unrelated to those early Indo Iranians. This probably means there were diff types of Yamna people who were a mix of the native people that lived in those areas before them.
Yes, I don't necessarily disagree with you. There never has been "pure race", so the Indo-Europeans were already a mix of different people, which possibly included "native" Europeans. I would be interested to know, what connections the Uralic-people of Southern Russia had with them.

[Fire Haired]

You put a lot of emphasis on blonde hair/red hair and blue eyes. What area have the highest rates of blonde/red hair and blue eyes? R1a Z283 or R1a Z93?

It is hard to say i know the proto Indo Iranian speakers in Russia 5,000ybp with R1a Z93 would have been mainly blonde hair and light eyed and wioth alot of red hair. I dont know what the proto Balto Slavic R1a Z283 people in Russia or Ukriane 5,000-6,000ybp would have had. I am pretty sure no red hair since it is under 1% in just about all of eastern Europe except areas with Inter marriage with Germanic Italo Celts. DNA from 5,000-6,000ybp Yamna people(ancestor to proto Balto Slavic Corded ware culture) in southern Ukriane and southern Russia the German scientist did not give that much info just that they had pale skin and darker eyes than average Europeans. So proto Balto Slavs if they came out of southern Yamna culture would have been mainly dark eyed and probably dark haired with i would guess no red hair.

Modern Balto Slavic speaking people with over 40% R1a Z283 have alot of light hair and eyes but that could be from the native eastern Europeans. It is really hard to say and it does not really matter unless u are trying to use that to track something. Also red hair is distributed completely differently than blonde hair their unconnected probably evolved seperatly.






From which branch of R1a did the Armenians and Germans get there language R1a- Z93 or R1a L664?

I think i have made it clear in my opinion not all Indo European languages spread with R1a or are defined by R1a. Like Balto slavs and Indo Iranians. Armenians are not indo iranian so no for R1a Z93, Germanic language in my opinon goes back too Germanic Italo Celtic because of their connection with R1b1a2a1 L51. So Germanic languages are probably defined by R1b1a2a1a1 S21/U106 it seems like they had a very small minority R1a1a1a L664 which is the brother of proto Balto Slavic Indo Iranian R1a1a1b.




Since you bring up Turkey/Anatolia which branch of R1a, z93 or z283 did the Hittites and there language come from?
Are they one of the oldest Indo- European speaking groups? Were the blonde hair red hair blue eyed balto slavics older than the Hittites?

I dont really think Hittites who are in the Antolian language family (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAnatoli an_languages&ei=O00mUtP_N6WqyQGm2IGYBw&usg=AFQjCNGpKMCfLX072NSaV2pZsyDO4Nwf9A&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc). The oldest record of Hittite language are 3,900 year old. We know that R1a1a1b1 Z283 proto Balto SLavic Corded ware culture started a little over 5,000 years ago. I dont know they probably are about the same age it seems like Indo European languages really began to spread 5,000ybp maybe because of bronze. sure blonde hair is very popular in Balto Slavs but who knows if that is from the orignal speakers or the natives of eastern europe. Red hair is almost non existint in eastern Europe only areas with Germanic Italo Celtic inter marriage like parts of western Poland.




So R1a1a M17 is from Ukraine however it is not found in Ossetians because the "blood line died out", is this a correct assumption of why there is very little found in Ossestians, since they do not have red hair and blue eyes, as opposed to the Balto Slavic people?

Yes mainly R1a1a1b2 Z93 bloodline ended in Ossetinas since they speak a Sythian language and all Sythian Y NA samples were R1a1a same with their ancestor cultures except Andronovo had one Mongliod C. How high is red hair in Ossestians it was very common prpbably over 5% in proto Indo Iranian speakers and Sycthans but u can just say they are red haired i doubt they have over 0.5%. So what if there is no red hair in Balto Slavs the people who spoke proto Balto Slavic may have been mainly from a very diff people than proto Indo Iranian speakers R1a is just a direct male lineage not ur full ancestry.




However they evolved within R1a region? So Armenian/Northwestern Iranian[ancient Mede] Hittite, ancient Greek, ancient Latin, ancient Germanic, ancient Celtic all come from Southern Russia Ukraine which consisted of mainly blue eyed blonde red hair peoples, either from R1a Z283 or R1a Z93 is that a correct assumption of your theory?

No that is not a correct assumption of my theory. Armenians, Greek, and Hittite u should say Antolian languges might have nothing to do with R1a. Maybe they mixed with R1a people in Russia and Ukriane before migrating. I dont know how many times i have to say this Celtic, Latin;s,a nd Germanics go back to the same language family Germanic Italo Celtic so they are all connected, Their marker Y DNa haplogroup is R1b1a2a1 L51 there may have been a tiny tiny tny little bit of R1a they picked up from other Indo Europeans while migrating like R1a1a1a L664.

I dont know what hair color and eye color early Indo Europeans in Russia and Ukriane 6,000-8,000ybp had that is not really apart of my theory. I think that Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L51 father R1b L23 migrated out of the mid east mixed with very red hair Europeans in Russia and Ukriane ten they became very red hair and spread to western Europe but those red haired people they miced with probably were not Indo Europeans. Ancient DNA and other things had proven proto Indo Iranian speakers were mainly blonde haired and light eyed with alot of red hair and i think their ancestry came form north eastern European Russia. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90089-Where-did-proto-Indo-Iranian-speakers-ancestry-orignate) That does not mean they represent proto Indo Europeans there is a good chance they were conquered by indo European migrating from the south but their ancestry mainly comes from pre Indo European people in northern Russia. Since they had so much red hair i though they might be connected with those people proto proto Germanic Italo Celts mixed with.

6,000 and 5,000 year old DNA from Yamna culture in southern Russia and Ukriane had pale skin and more dark eyes than average europes i would assume mainly dark hair. So right there would proff what u though was apart of my theory wrong. The Indo European languages even 5,5000ybp were pretty spread out and would have existed in many diff people.

[Fire Haired]

Yes, I don't necessarily disagree with you. There never has been "pure race", so the Indo-Europeans were already a mix of different people, which possibly included "native" Europeans. I would be interested to know, what connections the Uralic-people of Southern Russia had with them.

what do u mean by native europeans. Many early Indo Europeans would have been European the first indo european speakers were not some weird group if they were in Europe they were European and a mix of peopele who had been in that area. If they were forom Anatolia same thing but for Anatolian.

[Peikko]

what do u mean by native europeans. Many early Indo Europeans would have been European the first indo european speakers were not some weird group if they were in Europe they were European and a mix of peopele who had been in that area. If they were forom Anatolia same thing but for Anatolian.
Yes, the word "native" is not well defined, since the previous populations might have been quite different in different parts of Europe. I usually mean the people, which pre-dated Indo-European languages in Northern Europe.

[Fire Haired]

Yes, the word "native" is not well defined, since the previous populations might have been quite different in different parts of Europe. I usually mean the people, which pre-dated Indo-European languages in Northern Europe.

okay

[ALL]

. Maybe their language survived but not their blood so i would also not be suprised of they have very little R1a1a1b2 Z93.
What do you mean "their blood"? A B AB O ?




Not all Indo European languages spread with R1a or mainly R1a.
What do you mean by this; Indo-European languages started out with R1a and spread to other groups like L51? BTW what clade of R1b are the Kromsdorf samples, L51?

[Smeagol]

Blond hair and blue eyes came from the indigenous Europeans, not from indo-europeans.

Indo-Europeans were native Europeans, and many were blonde, and blue eyed.

[Fire Haired]

What do you mean "their blood"? A B AB O ?
I mean ancestry or genetics'.




What do you mean by this?

I mean that there is overwhelming evidence Indo European Corded ware culture which would have spoken ancestral language to Balto Slavic spread R1a1a1b1 Z283 in Europe. R1a1a1b2 Z93 was spread also from father Yamna culture but mainly in Asia with Indo Iranian and Tocharian languages. But not all Indo European languages spread with mainly or a lot of R1a. Like Germanic, Italic, and Celtic languages which probably spread with R1b1a2a1a L11 and probably some other Y DNA haplogroups which are debated over.

[ALL]

I mean ancestry or genetics'. I mean that there is overwhelming evidence Indo European Corded ware culture which would have spoken ancestral language to Balto Slavic spread R1a1a1b1 Z283 in Europe. R1a1a1b2 Z93 was spread also from father Yamna culture but mainly in Asia with Indo Iranian and Tocharian languages. But not all Indo European languages spread with mainly or a lot of R1a. Like Germanic, Italic, and Celtic languages which probably spread with R1b1a2a1a L11 and probably some other Y DNA haplogroups which are debated over.

So according to your theory you are European and one of the features of Europeans are Red hair which spread from Yamna culture?

[Fire Haired]

Indo-Europeans were native Europeans, and many were blonde, and blue eyed.

There is not enough evidence to say this. Who were the first Indo Europeans? In my opinion they probably lived around Ukraine, Russia, and northern middle east like around Anatolia, Iraq, and Caucasus. By 6,000 years ago there were already many people with very different ancestry speaking Indo European language. Evidence of this is two most likely Indo European cultures around 5,500ybp one Yamna was in Russia and Ukraine and one Maykop was in the Caucasus. More evidence is the little info realised about DNA from Yamna remains dating 5,000-6,000ybp mainly around the European coast of the black sea. It was said they were undoubtley a European population and they used their pale skin as evidence also they said they had much darker eyes than average modern Europeans. While pigmentation genes from bronze-iron age Indo Iranian's in Asia had vast majority light eyes over 70%. Even though they descend from Yamna culture, but probably not from around coast of the black sea.

The Y DNA haplogroup that I think probably spread with Germanic, Italic, and Celtic languages is R1b1a2a1a L11. It's ancestor subclades almost definitely came out of the middle east into Europe around 6,000-8,000 years ago and slowly made its way to western Europe. This shows there is something Middle eastern with origin of Indo European languages maybe Maykop culture has something to do with it. Early Indo European people 6,000ybp already probably lived in many different areas and some had very different physical features and ancestry.

Please don't read many of these threads that I made and think it represents me now. Looking back I realize I didn't study things in detail to make sure everything I was saying was right and came up with quick conclusions. I was an idiot sometimes. I am just trying to learn about history mainly Generic's and I consider all the different possibilities and make sure I understand my sources. Wikpedia and the resources on the internet is not enough if you really want to learn about Genetics' and history. I have hit the spot were the internet isn't enough anymore and I need to learn the science behind all the DNA stuff and truly understand ancient cultures so I can make much more accurate theory's not based on what someone else said.

[ALL]

There is not enough evidence to say this. Who were the first Indo Europeans? In my opinion they probably lived around Ukraine, Russia, and northern middle east like around Anatolia, Iraq, and Caucasus. By 6,000 years ago there were already many people with very different ancestry speaking Indo European language. Evidence of this is two most likely Indo European cultures around 5,500ybp one Yamna was in Russia and Ukraine and one Maykop was in the Caucasus. More evidence is the little info realised about DNA from Yamna remains dating 5,000-6,000ybp mainly around the European coast of the black sea. It was said they were undoubtley a European population and they used their pale skin as evidence also they said they had much darker eyes than average modern Europeans. While pigmentation genes from bronze-iron age Indo Iranian's in Asia had vast majority light eyes over 70%. Even though they descend from Yamna culture, but probably not from around coast of the black sea.

The Y DNA haplogroup that I think probably spread with Germanic, Italic, and Celtic languages is R1b1a2a1a L11. It's ancestor subclades almost definitely came out of the middle east into Europe around 6,000-8,000 years ago and slowly made its way to western Europe. This shows there is something Middle eastern with origin of Indo European languages maybe Maykop culture has something to do with it. Early Indo European people 6,000ybp already probably lived in many different areas and some had very different physical features and ancestry.

Please don't read many of these threads that I made and think it represents me now. Looking back I realize I didn't study things in detail to make sure everything I was saying was right and came up with quick conclusions. I was an idiot sometimes. I am just trying to learn about history mainly Generic's and I consider all the different possibilities and make sure I understand my sources. Wikpedia and the resources on the internet is not enough if you really want to learn about Genetics' and history. I have hit the spot were the internet isn't enough anymore and I need to learn the science behind all the DNA stuff and truly understand ancient cultures so I can make much more accurate theory's not based on what someone else said.

Well you certainly are quite intelligent. Have you taken a genetics test? For example do you know your blood type?

[Fire Haired]

So according to your theory you are European and one of the features of Europeans are Red hair which spread from Yamna culture?

I can look at family records and DNA results compared to people in Europe which can prove I am European. I am mainly central European German and Prussian with a little Swiss, then British(Scottish and English), and Norwegian. From all the sources I have looked at about distribution of red hair is that it only reach's 1% in western Europe, Finland, around the coast or northeastern Baltic, and Volga Russia but Uralic's not Slavic Russians. It is highest in Insular Celts: Gaelic Irish and Scottish, and Britonnic Welsh and Cornish at 10-15% and in Uralic Udmurts who are overall the highest at 14%. You can look up red hair maps and other things about distribution of red hair on Google.

Red hair does show a pretty good correlation with R1b1a2a1a L11 which I and others think spread with Indo European Germanic, Italic, and Celtic languages. That is of course debatable though. I have noticed a lot of splits between traditional western and eastern Europe in Dodecade autosomal DNA test spreadsheets red hair is not the only genetic difference. There are many possibilities for why red hair is distributed the way it is. It is possible that red hair was brought or raised above 1% in west Europe by Indo European Germanic, Italic's, and Celts and they may have originally come from Yamna culture probably the southern part.

Many Europeans like Ukrainians, Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians, Belorussians, etc. have almost no red hair. Red hair also exists in Southwest Asian Samaritans who in Dodocade autosomal DNA tests show almost 0% European ancestry. I don't know but red hair may be just as popular in middle easterns(depends on which ones) as most Europeans. That would be strange though since redheads are the most pale people besides albinos and Europeans are much paler than Middle easterns.

[ALL]

Blond hair and blue eyes came from the indigenous Europeans, not from indo-europeans.

You mean Sami are the source of blonde hair blue eyes?

The Sami people, also spelled Sámi or Saami, are theindigenous Finno-Ugric people inhabiting the Arctic area of Sápmi, which today encompasses parts of far northern Norway, Sweden, Finland, the Kola Peninsula of Russia

[ALL]

I can look at family records and DNA results compared to people in Europe which can prove I am European. I am mainly central European German and Prussian with a little Swiss, then British(Scottish and English), and Norwegian. From all the sources I have looked at about distribution of red hair is that it only reach's 1% in western Europe, Finland, around the coast or northeastern Baltic, and Volga Russia but Uralic's not Slavic Russians. It is highest in Insular Celts: Gaelic Irish and Scottish, and Britonnic Welsh and Cornish at 10-15% and in Uralic Udmurts who are overall the highest at 14%. You can look up red hair maps and other things about distribution of red hair on Google.

Red hair does show a pretty good correlation with R1b1a2a1a L11 which I and others think spread with Indo European Germanic, Italic, and Celtic languages. That is of course debatable though. I have noticed a lot of splits between traditional western and eastern Europe in Dodecade autosomal DNA test spreadsheets red hair is not the only genetic difference. There are many possibilities for why red hair is distributed the way it is. It is possible that red hair was brought or raised above 1% in west Europe by Indo European Germanic, Italic's, and Celts and they may have originally come from Yamna culture probably the southern part.

Many Europeans like Ukrainians, Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians, Belorussians, etc. have almost no red hair. Red hair also exists in Southwest Asian Samaritans who in Dodocade autosomal DNA tests show almost 0% European ancestry. I don't know but red hair may be just as popular in middle easterns(depends on which ones) as most Europeans. That would be strange though since redheads are the most pale people besides albinos and Europeans are much paler than Middle easterns.

How do you know the branch of R1b if you have not taken a genetics test are you presuming your ancestry by written records and areas where the red hair gene is found?

You mention Celtic/Germanic/and Swiss.

[Fire Haired]

Well you certainly are quite intelligent. Have you taken a genetics test? For example do you know your blood type?

Thank you for the compliment but compared to many other amateurs I am not intelligent at all. There is a lot I have to learn and I cant get it all from the internet. I have no idea what blood type I am and know almost nothing about blood types. I have taken genetic tests you can see my Y DNA haplogroup R1b1a2a1a L11+, U106-, U152-, L21-, DF19-. I probably have R1b1a2a1a2 P312 and its subclade Df27 but Geno 2.0 doesn't test for those subclades of L11 only the ones I was negative for. My surname is in the English language and I have been able to trace my paternal ancestry in America back to 1790 and according to family tradition it goes back to colonial times and original from England or Ulster Ireland and before that Scotland. But over 80% of Scottish and English R1b is under U106, L21, and U152 all I am negative for. Autosomal DNA results are surprising and don't fit with central Europeans and British who usually get very similar results. It was in Geno 2.0 there was 0% to much Meditreaen and 10% to little North European. The Meditreaen may show some type of Middle eastern ancestry which could be from Jewish, Italian, Balkan, or Middle eastern inter marriage. Or possibly most of my German ancestry is from southeast Germany. Or it could mean inter marriage with Iberians or Sardinians which is very unlikely. Some Jewish ancestry makes the most sense. A surname of one of my German ancestors I found out was common for German Jews.

In the Geno 2.0 test it also showed tiny bit of Native American, Sub Saharan African, and Oceania ancestry but I have heard of Swedish and Greek people getting Native American and Oceania ancestry to. Both Oceania and America's were not discovered by Europeans(not counting Vikings) after the 1400's so all of that is probably not real ancestry.

[Fire Haired]

You mean Sami are the source of blonde hair blue eyes?

NO way did blonde hair and blue eyes(what about other light eye colors) originate in the modern ethnic group Sami. Far northern and eastern Sami have around the same hair and eye colors as most southern Europeans which is surprising. The autosomal DNA( Dodecade globe13, K12b, and K7b tests) results of European hunter gathers from Mesolithic and Neolithic age show they had majority globe13=North European, K7b=Atlantic Baltic, K12b= North European. All of these groups are the only really today unique to Europe they all probably originated in Palaeolithic Europe. They also show a pretty good correlation with fair hair and light eyes which means it is possible they were more popular before the spread of farming started about 9,000ybp. This would mean blonde hair has a origin in probably Palaeolithic Europe or middle east before any of the language families or modern ethnic groups and cultures in modern Europe began.

[ALL]

NO way did blonde hair and blue eyes(what about other light eye colors) originate in the modern ethnic group Sami. Far northern and eastern Sami have around the same hair and eye colors as most southern Europeans which is surprising. The autosomal DNA( Dodecade globe13, K12b, and K7b tests) results of European hunter gathers from Mesolithic and Neolithic age show they had majority globe13=North European, K7b=Atlantic Baltic, K12b= North European. All of these groups are the only really today unique to Europe they all probably originated in Palaeolithic Europe. They also show a pretty good correlation with fair hair and light eyes which means it is possible they were more popular before the spread of farming started about 9,000ybp. This would mean blonde hair has a origin in probably Palaeolithic Europe or middle east before any of the language families or modern ethnic groups and cultures in modern Europe began.

Do you have any theories on the origin of red hair?

[Fire Haired]

How do you know the branch of R1b if you have not taken a genetics test are you presuming your ancestry by written records and areas where the red hair gene is found?

You mention Celtic/Germanic/and Swiss.
I have records to prove basically the percentages of countries my ancestry is from. And my Y DNA haplogroup is R1b L11 which seems to be connected with Germanic, Italic, and Celtic languages. If you go by ancient ancestry. I am Germanic and Celtic. possibly a little Italian because many of my Celtic ancestors were conquer by Caesar and Rome and I hear that there is a lot of Italian speakers in Switzerland but that's all I know. I also have some ancestry from Corded ware culture which took up southern Norway and Sweden and most of Germany about 4,000-4,900 years ago. So similar ancestry to Baltic's and Slavs since Corded ware spoke ancestral language of Balto Slavic and brought Y DNA R1a1a1b1 Z283 which is the dominate paternal lineage of Balto Slavs.

[ALL]

I have records to prove basically the percentages of countries my ancestry is from. And my Y DNA haplogroup is R1b L11 which seems to be connected with Germanic, Italic, and Celtic languages. If you go by ancient ancestry. I am Germanic and Celtic. possibly a little Italian because many of my Celtic ancestors were conquer by Caesar and Rome and I hear that there is a lot of Italian speakers in Switzerland but that's all I know. I also have some ancestry from Corded ware culture which took up southern Norway and Sweden and most of Germany about 4,000-4,900 years ago. So similar ancestry to Baltic's and Slavs since Corded ware spoke ancestral language of Balto Slavic and brought Y DNA R1a1a1b1 Z283 which is the dominate paternal lineage of Balto Slavs.

Balto Slavs z283 are one branch of Indo Europeans. Getting back to R1b and Italy and Germany you think those samples found in Kromsdorf Germany were R1b1a2a1a2 P312 and its subclade Df27?

[Fire Haired]

Do you have any theories on the origin of red hair?

Yes I do. I made a thread about it a few months ago but it is pretty dis organized, long, and hard to understand. There may be a connection with Russia-Ukraine. If it is true red hair was spread or at least raised to 1% in western Europe by the spread of R1b L11 and Germanic, Italic, and Celtic languages. Which would have come out of somewhere around Russia, Ukraine, south east Europe, and north middle east. Also There is ancient art depicting Tocharian's with red hair. Tocharian's were a Indo European speaking people who lived in western China since at least the late iron age. Another Indo European language Indo Iranian languages during the bronze and iron age where very spread out in central Asia, south Asia, middle east, and Siberia during the time of Tocharian's they are probably connected somehow.

A Scythian tribe(Scythians were Indo Iranian speakers) in Ukraine named Budni were described by Greek historian Herodotus as having red hair. And a 3,000 year old mummy in west china named Charchen man had reddish brown hair. All info on ancient Indo Iranian DNA click here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1431-INdo-Iranian-and-Tocherian-DNA). Red hair also I have heard and seen pops up in modern Indo Iranian speaking people in the middle east more evidence it existed possible at 1% in proto Indo Iranian and also Tocharian speakers.

This could mean two different major Indo European groups migrating out of around the same area had at least 1% red hair unlike almost anyone in the world. The modern Uralic tribes in Volga Russia with over 1% red hair and the 14% in Udmurts is more evidence of a Russia-Ukraine connection. But it is hard to explain 1-3% red hair in Finland, and northeast Baltic coast were R1b L11 is very rare. Figuring out how red hair spread is very complicated. Red hair in southwest Asian Samaritans who in Dodoecade autosomal DNA tests show almost no traces of European ancestry complicates the origin and spread of red hair even more. Red hair also pops up in some Berber ethnic groups in northwest Africa like Kablye who also are known for light skin and blonde hair so some type of European ancestry but no serious genetic studies to find where it came from.

[ALL]

. Red hair also pops up in some Berber ethnic groups in northwest Africa like Kablye who also are known for light skin and blonde hair so some type of European ancestry but no serious genetic studies to find where it came from.

Berbers/ Basque and some people with red hair also as well as Northern Italians and some Europeans also carry the mutation,
short arm of the first chromosome, p36.13–p34.3)

African descent less 1%
Asian descent less 1%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh_blood_group_system

[Fire Haired]

Balto Slavs z283 are one branch of Indo Europeans. Getting back to R1b and Italy and Germany you think those samples found in Kromsdorf Germany were R1b1a2a1a2 P312 and its subclade Df27?

Those 4,600 year old R1b samples from Bell Beaker culture in Kromsdorf, Germany one was positive R1b1a2 M269 and also negative main Germanic branch R1b1a2a1a1 U106 which is not a surprise 4,600ybp is a little above its age estimate. It may have had R1b P312 since it is not completely Italo Celtic is probably pretty old there is a Norse branch L238. I think it probably had L11, P312, another extinct or undiscovered lineage of L11, or L51. The Anthrogenica forum has many real known experts like Jean Manco and Richard Rocca with grad college degree's and years of research on history. Who were having a really long debate about the connection between Bell Beaker culture and R1b L11 in western Europe. I didn't have the resources and time to learn and understand everything they were talking about but there are a lot of legit theories and possibilities of the spread of R1b L11.

[Fire Haired]

Berbers/ Basque and some people with red hair also as well as Northern Italians and some Europeans also carry the mutation,
short arm of the first chromosome, p36.13–p34.3)

African descent less 1%
Asian descent less 1%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh_blood_group_system

I do not understand exactly what your trying to say.

[Kale]

What component do you associate these Indo-Europeans? You said it wasn't North_European...so what is it then?

[ALL]

I do not understand exactly what your trying to say.
There is generally an inverse relation between Rh negative and B allele.

[ALL]

What component do you associate these Indo-Europeans? You said it wasn't North_European...so what is it then?

Different genetic components produce different results. For example Urdmurts are about 85%+/- ydna N but have high frequency of red hair.

[Fire Haired]

What component do you associate these Indo-Europeans? You said it wasn't North_European...so what is it then?

Indo Europeans were not a race. Early Indo European speakers 6,000 years ago already lived in many different areas and would have had pretty different ancestry from each other. There may be some groups different Indo European speakers spread. Gedorsian in K7b may have been spread with R1b L11 Germanic's, Celts, and Italic's. North Euro in K12b and globe13 was probably at least partly brought to central Asia, Siberia, west china, middle east, and south Asia with R1a1a1b2 Z93 Indo Iranian's an Tocharian's.

Dodecade results in K12b, K7b, and globe13 of European farmers and hunter gathers from Mesolithic, Neolithic, and copper age. Shows there was something extra in modern Europeans(different by different region). The North Euro in globe13 and K12b and the Atlantic Baltic in K12b shows to be from pre Neolithic European hunter gathers. Meditreaen, southwest Asian, and west Asian in globe13, Atlantic Med, Caucasus, and southwest Asian in K12b, Southern and west Asian in K7b show to be from the farmers. The only modern people to truly match the farmers are Sardinians. There were no true matches to the hunter gathers.

Indo European migrations may have raised North Euro and Atlantic Baltic and also changed percentages of the middle eastern groups. There will have to be new autosomal DNA results from all over Europe in different ages to see if there are big changes starting in Copper age with suspected Indo European cultures like Corded ware I am sure there will be.

[Fire Haired]

Different genetic components produce different results. For example Urdmurts are about 85%+/- ydna N but have high frequency of red hair.

Y DNA is only a paternal line so for whatever reason certain y DNA haplogroups can become dominate in a population. It is possible to have a 99% Chinese people with 90% European Y DNA haplogroups.

[Hevo]

Indo-Europeans were native Europeans, and many were blonde, and blue eyed.

Do you believe the theory that the first person with blue eyes lived around the Black Sea like 6000-10.000 years ago?

[Smeagol]

Do you believe the theory that the first person with blue eyes lived around the Black Sea like 6000-10.000 years ago?

Yes.

[Peikko]

You mean Sami are the source of blonde hair blue eyes?

No, the Saamis are a bit darker, but there's been more recent Mongoloid influence to them that came from the East.

[Fire Haired]

Do you believe the theory that the first person with blue eyes lived around the Black Sea like 6000-10.000 years ago?
That is definitely way to recent. The North Euro component in autosomal DNA comes from pre Neolithic Europe and is correlated very closely to fair hair and eyes in Europe. Meaning that both existed in pre Neolithic Europe over 9,000 years ago and were much more popular than today. I have no idea why they say it originated around the black sea where fair hair and eyes are not very popular. We know through ancient DNA that a ethnic group that spread Y DNA R1a Z93 in Asia with Indo Iranian and Tocharian languages had majority light hair and eyes around 5,000 years ago at least. And they have very few descendants in Europe probably no one left is mainly descended from them. To say the first person with blue eyes lived only 6,000-10,000ybp is absolutely nuts pigmentation genes from Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Europe will quickly prove this wrong. That would mean this person for some reason had way more descendants than anyone else at his time. And his descendants reproduced like crazy and had a lot of natural selection on their side and replaced 1,000,00's of people in Europe. If one person today was born with green hair would you except that just 1,000-5,000 years later green hair would be spread out across an entire continent and be the main hair color of many people. That is what people who say blue eyes is only 6,000-10,000 years old are proposing.

In my opinion its close to impossible to say when certain feature originated and where and how popular it has been in time. So what I am saying about it being more popular in pre Neolithic Europe may be wrong. Who knows what the origin of blue eyes is the best way to get a somewhat accurate idea is ancient DNA if the age estimates are accurate. Figuring things out about Genetics' and history is extremely hard and complicated but our media likes quick exciting, simple, and surprising answers like everyone is part Neanderthal, red hair will go extinct, and mtDNA H spread only in the Neolithic.

[Fire Haired]

Yes.
But you also believe that the proto Indo Europeans over 6,000 years ago had a lot of blue eyes. It seems that is true for at least proto Indo Iranian speakers(based on ancient DNA) but probably not for most people who spread Indo European languages and not the first. How do you explain Finnish and Estonian Uralic who are actually probably the most blue eyed people in the world and are Uralic not Indo European speakers. And have very little Y DNA of Indo European origin R1b1a2a1a1 S21 and R1a1a1b1 Z283.

[ALL]

No, the Saamis are a bit darker, but there's been more recent Mongoloid influence to them that came from the East.
Then why do the Sami/Lapland have only 4% B and Finland has 15% B compared to Korea 21% B

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_distribution_by_country

[Peikko]

Then why do the Sami/Lapland have only 8% B /AB and Finland has 22% B/AB compared to Korea 21% B

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_distribution_by_country
Is blood type related to anything, especially on swarthiness?

[ALL]

Is blood type related to anything, especially on swarthiness?
It's actually more important. If you need a blood transfusion it is important who you match with it's also used for dna tests. Skin colour- swarthiness are irrelevant.

[Peikko]

It's actually more important. If you need a blood transfusion it is important who you match with it's also used for dna tests. Skin colour- swarthiness are irrelevant.
Mkay. We were talking about light pigmentation, but what ever.

[Kale]

Indo Europeans.
1) R1b L11 Germanic's, Celts, and Italic's.
2) R1a1a1b2 Z93 Indo Iranian's and Tocharian's.

Ok. I agree.
1) 80% North_European, 20% Gedroisa
2) More or less 100% North_European
Probably a small percentage of Atlantic_Med in both.

[Fire Haired]

Ok. I agree.
1) 80% North_European, 20% Gedroisa
2) More or less 100% North_European
Probably a small percentage of Atlantic_Med in both.

It is hard to get exact percentages the best way to figure it out is ancient DNA. Please don't take these old threads as a representation of what I think now. Back then I made loud threads without any sound evidence. I am very ashamed of some of the stupid things I have posted.