Nordic elements in Sicily: How much of it is Norman, how much is ancient Italic Indo-European?

[Sikeliot]

Nordic elements are visible amongst the Sicilian population.. but how much of it is due to the Normans, and how much is due to ancient Italics (that predated Greeks, Phoenicians etc) and Indo-Europeans?

I often assume that around Palermo, where the Normans settled most heavily, the Norman influence explains a significant amount of the blue eyes and light features that exist, but in the rest of Sicily, where Normans did not settle in large enough numbers to have an impact, where would the Nordic elements come from? They are less common in eastern and southern Sicily, but you can still find blue eyes and blonde hair and Nordic influence here and there.

[Smeagol]

It's from the Italics mostly.

[Stormer99]

Around the Palermo area from the Normans

[Stormer99]

It's from the Italics mostly.

Italics are not Nordic

[Sikeliot]

It's from the Italics mostly.

Then we can assume the population was once blonder, more blue eyed and more Nordic than it is today, since at one point the Italics would have been a larger amount of the population before the Greeks and Phoenicians showed up.

Anyway I'd say in Palermo it's Norman, and in the rest of the island, when Nordic appearance does show up, it's ancient Indo-European/Italic.

[Smeagol]

Italics are not Nordic

No, they were a mix of Nordic (Aryan) and indigenous central European. (Alpines, Dinarics, etc)

[Smeagol]

Then we can assume the population was once blonder, more blue eyed and more Nordic than it is today, since at one point the Italics would have been a larger amount of the population before the Greeks and Phoenicians showed up

Yes, Italians in antiquity were lighter.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89553-Pigmentation-of-the-Roman-and-Byzantine-Emperors


Anyway I'd say in Palermo it's Norman, and in the rest of the island, when Nordic appearance does show up, it's ancient Indo-European/Italic.

I agree.

[Sikeliot]

My own appearance would not have arrived until the Greeks did.

[Libertas]

Italics are not Nordic
I agree.

The Italics may have had relatively fair Borreby or Cro-Magnon elements, still evident in many Apennine areas of Italy, but none of the old Roman busts show a Nordic phenotype.

[Sikeliot]

On the topic of this thread, the recent Eurogenes run (K27) did not give any region of Sicily more than 9% Northern European, with the difference being no more than 2% in any part of the island.

Therefore if all of it is Norman influence, Sicilians must have had like 0% Northern European prior to that, which just is not probable .

[Anthropologique]

Yes, Italians in antiquity were lighter.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89553-Pigmentation-of-the-Roman-and-Byzantine-Emperors



I agree.

Of course, there was no political Italy then.

[Sikeliot]

Assuming Normans had little influence, then Sicilians would have been lighter prior to Greek and Phoenician settlement, since Italic would have made up a greater proportion of ancestry before then, even though they arrived when Neolithic peoples were already there.

[Anthropologique]

I think most Euro populations were lighter then. Italy got darker when the Easterners started to arrive in numbers.

[Vesuvian Sky]

I for one feel that the IE invasion of Italy was at a far more remote point in time, c. 3400 BC when the Kurgan stone warrior chief stelae appear in Northern Italy. Under this scenario, and by the time historically known Italics emerge, they thus would have looked standard Dinaro-Med. due to intermarrage with more 'local' elements in Italy. Ergo, more Northern traits in Palermo would reflect IMO more recent gene flow into the area which Norman conquest would fulfill here quite well.

[Libertas]

Not all European blonds or near-blonds are Nordic.

Many are Borreby or a certain type of Alpine.

I doubt if ANYWHERE in Italy outside the South Tyrol has as much as 7 to 9 pc per cent of tall, long-headed Nordics.

[Libertas]

I for one feel that the IE invasion of Italy was at a far more remote point in time, c. 3400 BC when the Kurgan stone warrior chief stelae appear in Northern Italy. Under this scenario, and by the time historically known Italics emerge, they thus would have looked standard Dinaro-Med. due to intermarrage with more 'local' elements in Italy. Ergo, more Northern traits in Palermo would reflect IMO more recent gene flow into the area which Norman conquest would fulfill here quite well.

I agree.

[Conte Mascetti]

Italics are not Nordic
Early Italics were Nordish, they showed Nordoid features.

[Libertas]

Early Italics were Nordish, they showed Nordoid features.

Where is your proof?

[Peyrol]

Yes, Italians in antiquity were lighter.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89553-Pigmentation-of-the-Roman-and-Byzantine-Emperors



I agree.


Lol, who translated ''flavius'' as an adjective of physical appearence?

Flavius was (and still is, Flavi) a surname (prenomen), not an indicator of physical appearence...it would be like saying that all the americans named ''smith'' are people who work with iron :lol:

[Sikeliot]

Ergo, more Northern traits in Palermo would reflect IMO more recent gene flow into the area which Norman conquest would fulfill here quite well.

That is probable. However, we'd have to see if genetically they score more Northern components and as far as I have seen, they do but only 3-4% more which would not affect looks.

[Vesuvian Sky]

That is probable. However, we'd have to see if genetically they score more Northern components and as far as I have seen, they do but only 3-4% more which would not affect looks.

I think its not so much a matter of percentage of admixture per se, but whether or not a particular phenotypical trait will dominate for a certain period of time over another. The longer the phenotypical trait is left in the area among other traits that are unlike it, the greater chance it will be bred out within a certain period of time.

That's why early Italics looked standard Dinaro Med. because the IE invasions happened at 3400 BC in N. Italy. The more 'Kurganid' traits associated with PIE speakers (that is working within the confines of the Kurgan culture for IE invasion of Italy) would have thus been reduced since the process was one of elite dominance more and more local autosomal traits dominating throughout the pennisula but also cause it was so far back in time.

[Conte Mascetti]

Where is your proof?

I don't say neither Italians are Nordids, nor ancient Italians were Nordids.
I say some ancient Italian tribes, not all tribes, but only the early Italics (latins, oschi, umbri, sanniti) showed Nordoid features.
Statues and skeletons can confirm this.
Italics were R1b bearers and IE who mixed with native people of Italy (Mediterranids, Alpinids, Dinarids).
èlite romans (latins) were Nordoids (not Nordids).

[Libertas]

I don't say neither Italians are Nordids, nor ancient Italians were Nordids.
I say some ancient Italian tribes, not all tribes, but only the early Italics (latins, oschi, umbri, sanniti) showed Nordoid features.
Statues and skeletons can confirm this.
Italics were R1b bearers and IE who mixed with native people of Italy (Mediterranids, Alpinids, Dinarids).
èlite romans (latins) were Nordoids (nor Nordids).

What statues or skeletons?

I've seen no Nordic-looking Roman statues.

Show me some, if you please.

[Smeagol]

Lol, who translated ''flavius'' as an adjective of physical appearence?

Flavius was (and still is, Flavi) a surname (prenomen), not an indicator of physical appearence...it would be like saying that all the americans named ''smith'' are people who work with iron :lol:

Flavius is not used to describe any emperor. Suetonius used the word sub-flavum to describe the hair colour of Augustus, and Nero, which possibly meant a light brown colour.

[Prince Carlo]

Not all European blonds or near-blonds are Nordic.

Many are Borreby or a certain type of Alpine.

I doubt if ANYWHERE in Italy outside the South Tyrol has as much as 7 to 9 pc per cent of tall, long-headed Nordics.

Nordic is a cultural term, not racial. Maybe you meant nordid?

[Sikeliot]

I think its not so much a matter of percentage of admixture per se, but whether or not a particular phenotypical trait will dominate for a certain period of time over another. The longer the phenotypical trait is left in the area among other traits that are unlike it, the greater chance it will be bred out within a certain period of time.

So what you mean is the coastal Sicilians in the north are lighter because Norman influence was recent, but eventually those traits will be bred out.

[Peyrol]

How Svetonio could have described in detail Nerone since the emperor died 2 years before Svetonio's birth? The same for Augusto and also for the ''nigris oculi nigrosque pilos'' Cesare.
Don't take roman historians as ''ipse dixit'', they weren't good neither as historians and neither and depicters.

[Vesuvian Sky]

So what you mean is the coastal Sicilians in the north are lighter because Norman influence was recent, but eventually those traits will be bred out.

Yeah probably unless they only marry amongst themselves. Think of it this way: the whole reason North European components and M-17 are among the higher castes in India is, well, because of the caste system established by the Indo-Aryans at a certain point in time (though obviously after considerable admixture with some of the locals).

[Sikeliot]

Yeah probably unless they only marry amongst themselves. Think of it this way: the whole reason North European components and M-17 are among the higher castes in India is, well, because of the caste system established by the Indo-Aryans at a certain point in time (though obviously after considerable admixture with some of the locals).

They haven't married amongst themselves. Amongst people in Palermo, most "light pigmented" types have visible Semitic influence in their features to me (legacy of the Phoenicians and Carthaginians) such that they look more like Ashkenazis than like today's Normans.

[Vesuvian Sky]

They haven't married amongst themselves. Amongst people in Palermo, most "light pigmented" types have visible Semitic influence in their features to me (legacy of the Phoenicians and Carthaginians) such that they look more like Ashkenazis than like today's Normans.

Well genetics is a role of the dice. Some features may persist in one area over another due to a myriad of factors. But I'd say the lighter features you see among Sicilians in places like Palermo would have to do substantially more with Norman influence then Italic. I think Italic genes still flow through Italy, but they are not as much as they were c. 3400 BC, that's for sure (that is if you prefer that scenario as an example).

Also what of Oetzi's look? He's probably a good proxy to show how people within the Italian penninsula predominantly looked like by the Neolithic. He had ample paleo-meso- DNA plus significant Neolithic admixture (West Asian, SW Asian) yet he looked mainly cromagnid according to most reconstructions. Also here's what forensics and DNA analysis showed of his phenotype:



His hair, which all fell out during the mummification process, was dark and wavy. He wore it at least at shoulder length and probably loose. Besides strands of human head hair, shorter, curly hairs were also found at the site, indicating that in all probability the Iceman had a beard.
DNA tests have determined that he had brown eyes. The soft tissues of the face were deformed by the ice. Several experts have meanwhile attempted to reconstruct the Iceman’s facial features. The most recent reconstruction, which will also be on display at the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology (pictured), was created by the Dutch artists Adrie and Alfons Kennis. It is based on the very latest research findings.

http://www.iceman.it/en/node/258

[Sikeliot]

Well genetics is a role of the dice. Some features may persist in one area over another due to a myriad of factors. But I'd say the lighter features you see among Sicilians in places like Palermo would have to do substantially more with Norman influence then Italic. I think Italic genes still flow through Italy, but they are not as much as they were c. 3400 BC, that's for sure (that is if you prefer that scenario as an example).

Also what of Oetzi's look? He's probably a good proxy to show how people within the Italian penninsula predominantly looked like by the Noelithic. He had ample paleo-meso- DNA plus significant Neolithic admixture (West Asian, SW Asian) yet he looked mainly cromagnid. I also here's what forensics and DNA analysis showed of his phenotype:

It could be true, yes. Certainly in Palermo there is a higher influence of Germanic haplogroups, but autosomally they do not cluster that differently than other Sicilians. And I considered it could be because Palermitans seem to have less Caucasus type influence than other Sicilians, but more Arabic and North African and so it pulls them south to balance out the higher Norman.

But lighter people in the rest of the island would be more due to Italic influence I would assume. For instance in Enna, Catania, and Ragusa in eastern Sicily you find a lot of people with blue eyes, but barely any blondes, and features tend to lean toward East Med nine times out of ten. Like this:

https://a2.muscache.com/users/2795131/profile_pic/1347236099/square_225.jpg

For Oetzi I saw something of an Alpine sort of look that I associate with Swiss, Austrians, and today's North Italians.

[Ianus]

Normans people migrated in all South Italy were no more than 4-5000.

Blondism is more ancient and not necessary related with Nordic people. Also Med people have a minority tendence to blondism.

[Sikeliot]

Well I think blue eyes are naturally occurring in southern Italians, hence why they're not rare (I think something like 25% of Sicilians have blue eyes). It's the blonde hair that is rare.

Although I have heard Gelon of Syracuse, who is my avatar, was supposedly a blue eyed blonde, but his ancestors were from Telos, an island near Rhodes.

[Vesuvian Sky]

It could be true, yes. Certainly in Palermo there is a higher influence of Germanic haplogroups, but autosomally they do not cluster that differently than other Sicilians. And I considered it could be because Palermitans seem to have less Caucasus type influence than other Sicilians, but more Arabic and North African and so it pulls them south to balance out the higher Norman.

But lighter people in the rest of the island would be more due to Italic influence I would assume. For instance in Enna, Catania, and Ragusa in eastern Sicily you find a lot of people with blue eyes, but barely any blondes, and features tend to lean toward East Med nine times out of ten. Like this:

https://a2.muscache.com/users/2795131/profile_pic/1347236099/square_225.jpg

For Oetzi I saw something of an Alpine sort of look that I associate with Swiss, Austrians, and today's North Italians.

Most Sicilians aren't going to cluster that differently I'd imagine, then the rest of those on island regardless of Norman settlement since it was only a few thousand knights or so as I understand among a more well established population that would have had ample Neolithic admixture (more Levantine and what not). Most documentaries, like the one I posted in the Sicily section, even say the Normans did not care about their racial preservation and married local women.

The point of the matter has to do with time depth in relation to certain genes that trigger certain phenotypes to occur. Also was Norman settlement restricted mainly to Palermo? Catania was apparently under Ostrogoth rule at one time. I think Neolithic Italy was predominantly cromagnid but with darker hair eye colors. But what do percentages say for the island of Sicily over all? If there is an enhancement of lighter features, its probably more to do with more recent events then archaic.


(I think something like 25% of Sicilians have blue eyes).

Oh ok then.

[Ianus]

I think something like 25% of Sicilians have blue eyes)

You confuse with the percentage of light eyes.

[Sikeliot]

You confuse with the percentage of light eyes.

Blue or green then no? I don't consider any shade of brown to be light.

[Peyrol]

You confuse with the percentage of light eyes.

Light eyes (blue, azure, green, grey, amber) by single region (1911 datas, before the ''ethnic dissolution'' of the North):

Veneto/Friuli 41,4%
Piemonte/Valle d'Aosta 40%
Lombardia 37,2%
Liguria 29,6%
Emilia-Romagna 31,2%
Umbria 32,8%
Toscana 31,5%
Marche 31,3%
Lazio 26,2%
Abruzzo/Molise 28,5%
Campania 25,6%
Puglia 26,4%
Basilicata 23,1%
Calabria 19,6%
Sicilia 23,7%
Sardegna 13,9%

[Sikeliot]

So I was close with my estimate for Sicily.

[Peyrol]

So I was close with my estimate for Sicily.

Calabria is the continental region with the lowest percentage of light eyes, it seems.

[Smeagol]

How Svetonio could have described in detail Nerone since the emperor died 2 years before Svetonio's birth? The same for Augusto and also for the ''nigris oculi nigrosque pilos'' Cesare.
Don't take roman historians as ''ipse dixit'', they weren't good neither as historians and neither and depicters.

He probably had access to sources that no longer exist. I don't think he would have just made up what he wrote.

[Sikeliot]

Calabria is the continental region with the lowest percentage of light eyes, it seems.

And the most Armenoid features.

For how Greek Calabria is supposed to be, a lot of them have a look only rivaled by Cyprus.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Light eyes (blue, azure, green, grey, amber) by single region (1911 datas, before the ''ethnic dissolution'' of the North):

Sicilia 23,7%
Sardegna 13,9%

Definitely post Neolithic enhancement of lighter features in Sicily IMO given that Sardinian's are closest population to Neolithic Oetzi but also based on what we know of Oetzi's phenotype from forensic analysis and DNA.

[Sikeliot]

Definitely post Neolithic enhancement of lighter features in Sicily IMO given that Sardinian's are closest population to Neolithic Oetzi but also based on what we know of Oetzi's phenotype from forensic analysis and DNA.

So you mean Sicilians would have once been lighter than today?

If so, the "Sicilians were all blue eyed blonde" thing people love to say may actually have some coincidental basis in truth :lol:

[Peyrol]

So you mean Sicilians would have once been lighter than today?

If so, the "Sicilians were all blue eyed blonde" thing people love to say may actually have some coincidental basis in truth :lol:

It would have been a genocide, since those features are totally unsuitables for the life in the island climate...

[Loki]

Normans mostly, plus related Germanic elements.

[Sikeliot]

It would have been a genocide, since those features are totally unsuitables for the life in the island climate...

I literally had a woman at work, a Sicilian customer who found out my background, tell me that she (red haired, blue eyed, pale) was what Sicilians "originally" looked like until Arabs and blacks invaded and gave rise to people like me.

:lol: :lol:

Most Sicilian origins come from different Greek islands. The people of Messina are from Euboea, people from Catania from Rhodes, and people from Gela are from Telos and Rhodes.

[Peyrol]

See what a difference...42% for Veneto and Friuli and 19% for Calabria...in one single country :lol:

I would imagine the forlans light eyes to be a rhaetian and recent slavic (40% of Friuli's population has some degree of ancient sclaveni roots) and germanic input, rather than neolithic.

[Vesuvian Sky]

So you mean Sicilians would have once been lighter than today?

If so, the "Sicilians were all blue eyed blonde" thing people love to say may actually have some coincidental basis in truth :lol:

Do you mean during the Mesolithic?

I've heard everything that Europe's Paleo-Meso population was genetically "Proto-Eurasian"/like a Native Americans to lighter due to admixture with Neanderthal since Neanderthal genome sequencing revealed Neanderthal carried the gene for red hair and such.

I meant welllll past the Neolithic to clear things up here a bit more.

[Ouistreham]

Scandinavian admixture in Sicily and Southern Italy was close to zero.

First of all because Normandy was far from being overrun by crowds of Vikings. Their presence, as it still materializes in place names, physical looks, and popular architecture, was saturating only in one fifth of the province. Half of the territory never had any mentionsworthy Scandinavian settlement (except along the Southern border):
http://www.tassel.fr/norm_s~4.gif

The more the dukes of Normandy extended their dominion into fully French (or Breton) territories, the more rebellious barons (only nominally Norman) there were in these areas. Therefore, the Duchy had as a policy to encourage them to seek fortune overseas so as to relieve the pressure at home.

Consequently, there was not much Viking blood among the knights who sailed to Sicily. Or to England some time later.

[Peyrol]

Normans mostly, plus related Germanic elements.

This.

Infact, these ''light'' features peaks in the zones where there was a massive normannic settlement, with farmers and colonists.
Not only in these areas, but mainly.

Don't forget also the repopulation of many villages with lombard and bavarian colonists after the arab explusion and also after the Great Plague.

[Scandalf]

Besides Italics and Norse, couldn't there have been other contributors (some Longobards moving beyond their kingdom, other small groups of germanic barbarians that settled the island,...)?

[Peyrol]

This.

Infact, these ''light'' features peaks in the zones where there was a massive normannic settlement, with farmers and colonists.
Not only in these areas, but mainly.

Don't forget also the repopulation of many villages with lombard and bavarian colonists after the arab explusion and also after the Great Plague.


Besides Italics and Norse, couldn't there have been other contributors (some Longobards moving beyond their kingdom, other small groups of germanic barbarians that settled the island,...)?

This.

[alfieb]

Dumb question.

My dark-skinned, curly black-haired, 155cm, Sicilian-born grandmother has 23andMe relative finder matches from Sweden, Denmark, and Finland with Scandinavian names and haplogroups. Western Sicilians non-Mediterranean ancestry is Germanic, not indigenous.

[jmls]

Italics

[Sikeliot]

Dumb question.

My dark-skinned, curly black-haired, 155cm, Sicilian-born grandmother has 23andMe relative finder matches from Sweden, Denmark, and Finland with Scandinavian names and haplogroups. Western Sicilians non-Mediterranean ancestry is Germanic, not indigenous.

I don't think it is a dumb question to explain why there are light pigmented and "Nordic" influenced individuals in say, Catania or Messina.

[alfieb]

There are Norman castles all over the island. The concentration is near Palermo as that's where the king lived, but Norman nobles were counts and whatnot in the East as well. Plus, there's the Lombards in the East. Has nothing to do with Italic or indigenous tribes.

[Sikeliot]

Plus, there's the Lombards in the East. Has nothing to do with Italic or indigenous tribes.

Aren't they isolated though and many of them still speak their separate languages?

[alfieb]

You've noticed that many W. Sicilians have Albanian ancestry, yes? Yet there are only three small Albanian-speaking towns in Palermo. Over the span of 500 years, the Albanians mixed with the natives.

Likewise, the Lombards in the east have been there for 800 years. Mixing is inevitable. I'm sure there were more Lombard-speaking towns before today just as there were more Arbereshe towns in the past, only they "went native".

[Black Wolf]

Interestingly enough my paternal grandfather who is 100% Calabrian has a chromosome segment match with a woman who has Arbereshe roots in Calabria on 23andme.

[Sikeliot]

You've noticed that many W. Sicilians have Albanian ancestry, yes? Yet there are only three small Albanian-speaking towns in Palermo. Over the span of 500 years, the Albanians mixed with the natives.

Likewise, the Lombards in the east have been there for 800 years. Mixing is inevitable. I'm sure there were more Lombard-speaking towns before today just as there were more Arbereshe towns in the past, only they "went native".

That is possible. Given your own genetic results and that of other people you are related to I am still inclined to believe that Norman ancestry is concentrated amongst several families and areas and is not widespread. I do wonder also if Palermo is very divided by class such that the upper class have more Norman ancestry and are lighter, and the lower classes are more Phoenician and are darker. Someone on here suggested that, considering most of the Palermitans I share with come up at least half Levantine.

On Dodecad Oracle, the Palermitans I share with score something like half Lebanese, a quarter Sardinian, a quarter Swedish.

[alfieb]

Weird how that works, eh? On Dodecad Oracle Mixedmode I came up as half Swedish. Always figured the Norman in Sicily would be Norwegians or Danes, but sure enough I have more Swedes on 23andMe. There must be a part of the story that was lost to history. Maybe the Varangian guards from Byzantium, who were Swedish mercenaries, made their way into the Norman ranks.

[Sikeliot]

Weird how that works, eh? On Dodecad Oracle Mixedmode I came up as half Swedish. Always figured the Norman in Sicily would be Norwegians or Danes, but sure enough I have more Swedes on 23andMe. There must be a part of the story that was lost to history. Maybe the Varangian guards from Byzantium, who were Swedish mercenaries, made their way into the Norman ranks.

If anything what surprises me is that the Normans were not mostly, by that point, northern French. Surely today Norman ancestry is highest in Normandy.

[Stormer99]

Weird how that works, eh? On Dodecad Oracle Mixedmode I came up as half Swedish. Always figured the Norman in Sicily would be Norwegians or Danes, but sure enough I have more Swedes on 23andMe. There must be a part of the story that was lost to history. Maybe the Varangian guards from Byzantium, who were Swedish mercenaries, made their way into the Norman ranks.

Can you show us some of your mixed modes? It would be interesting to see.