British ancestry almost all from Celtic and Germanic Conqueres

[Fire Haired]

I have seen alot of evidence in Y DNA, aust DNA, and hair color. That people in the British isles trace maybe almost all of their ancestry to Insular Celtic invasions anywhere from 3,000-4,3000ybp and Germanic invasions from about 400-600ad. Since the British isels are so remote you would except they are the most original for their area genetically but they probably have changed the most from migrations out of all Europeans.

Almost all Y DNA of pre Celts is almost non extisint

This is the weakest and most simple part of my argument. Irleand unlike Britian did not face huge Germanic invasions. They do have some Germanic Y DNA from inter marriage and i guess Vikings who also went to Britain. But basically Ireland, Wales, and Highlands of Scotland have kept almost only Insular Celtic Y DNA. They range from 80-98% of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 i am pretty sire almost all is under Italo Celtic R1b S116/P312 or R1b L21.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

So before Germanic invasions the British isles would have had probably 90%> Y DNA under R1b1a2a1a L11. When i was looking for Y DNA that may not be from Celtic invasions. I2a2a1 M284 was the first one i looked at. Its age estimates were only 3,000 years old so probably 100's maybe 1,000 years after Insular Celts would have taken control. Also I2a2a shows signs of being spread by other Celts and Germanic tribes in the bronze and iron ages so it would make sense this ws brought over by Insular Celts with R1b L21.

The next candate was I2a1b2 L161.1. It is called Isles but is found in many parts of Europe.

here is a map from FTDNA
http://www.robertgabel.de/I2a-L161map.png

It is by far most popular in the British isles and since it is very popular in Britanny who are Britons who ran away from Germanic invasion tells me it was popular in the British isles in at least Insular Celtic times from 1,500-4,00ybp. I2a1b period is very popular in eastern Europe in central and south eastern Europe it is almost always over 20%. So it is kind of the hg I of eastern Europe I guess I2a1b1 L161.1 is the western and central European branch. It is estimated according to FTDNA to be 6,600 years old i think it was spread by farming and since farming in Europe sprea through first eastern Europe some I2a1b was picked up and brought to centrala dn western Europe. So I think it is a pre Celtic Y DNA haplgroup of the British isles. Since 24 of 31 Y DNA samples from Neloithic western Europe had G2a. and that it seems the farmers that spread acroos Europe from 9,000-5,500ybp who all came from a father culture in western Anatolia were mainly G2a and E1b1b. That most G2a and E1b1b in the British isles in pre Celtic. But it still seems like the Insular Celts nearly made the native paternal lineages extinct deifntley because of conquest.

Red hair and K12b Gedorsian are most popular in the British isles both associated with the spread of Germanic Italo Celtic languages.

Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 father R1b1a2a L23 is centered around Caucus, Anatolia, and Iraq and also popular in southeastern Europe. There is no doubt that all non mid eastern R1b descends from R1b that migrated out of the mid east. It seems like the haplogroup may have originated there too. So at some point either R1b L23 or its father R1b M269 or its grandfather R1b P297 had to of migrated out of the mid east into Europe anywhere from 10,000-6,000ybp. The Gedorsian in the K12b aust DNA test is a off branch of their west asian. It shows a huge connection in distribution with heavily R1b people.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/red_hair_map_europe.jpg
I think it is pretty obvious the Gedorsian stayed in R1b1a2a1 L51 Germanic Italo Celts as they traveled acroos Europe. And it is highest in the British isles where R1b1a2a1 L51 is highest. maybe because they have the highest amount of blood from proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers.

Red hair also shows huge connections with the distribution of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 not with the rest of R1b though. The reason is probably because as R1b L51 father R1b L23 was migrating out of the mid east it inter married with a very red haired group of Europeans who then became mainly R1b L23 in Y DNA. Then as they spread to western Europe starting 5,000ybp forming into R1b L51 they spread that Y DNA, Germanic Italo Celtic languages, Gedorsian, and red hair in western Europe. It is so obvious that red hair in Scandinavia is from Germanic's. I think it is defintley possibly their brother group Italo Celts spread it to western Europe to. Since The British isles have the most before Germanic invasions it would have been 10-15% this is more evidence they have the most Germanic Italo celtic blood in western Europe. And since red hair is recessive and that they have 10-15% it makes sense that the natives were almost completely killed off.

Evidence England and Lowlands of Scotland have mainly Blood from Germanic invaders 400-600ad.

The Y DNA of England and Lowlands of Scotland has alot of Germanic.

Her is a map of Germanic R1b S21/U16 u can see England and LOwlands of Scotland have about 20-30% more than most Germanic speakers.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gifY DNA I1 would have not existed in pre Celtic and pre Germanic people of the British isles. Here is a map of I1 and u can see it is very popular in basically the same areas of England and Lowlands of Scotland as R1b S21.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

Overall England and Lowlands of Scotland have about 40-60% Y DNA from the Germanic invasions. Also red hair if u look above is 5-10% in most of England Lowlands of Scotland area while in Ireland, highlands of Scotland, and Wales it is mainly 10-15%. The Germanic tribes that invaded would have had about 3-10% red hair so they reduced the amount of red hair.

Also fair hair is higher around England and lowlands of Scotland than in Ireland, Wales, and highlands of Scotland. Obvisouly because of their Germanic blood which came from areas were fair hair is very popular.
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/274/c/2/europe_blonde_hair_map_by_arminius1871-d4bi138.jpg

This is kind of loose evidence but it does show that The Germanic tribes that invaded Britain really came form were they said they did. and people who say they are descended from them really are mainly descended form them. Since Germanic tribes could kill off so much of the Insular Celtic blood in recorded times after the Roman empire why couldnt Insular Celts done the same 3,000-4,300ybp which it seems they did.

Basically what i am trying to say is people in the British isles are really a results of Celtic invasions(3,000-4,300ybp) and Germanic invasions (400ad-600ad). So their ancestry was truly mixed and created in the bronze and iron ages. It is hard to believe almost twice people groups in the British isles were almost eliminated.

[Vasconcelos]

Galicians as the blondest in Iberia with over 20% rofl

[Fire Haired]

Galicians as the blondest in Iberia with over 20% rofl
didnt know that but that does not have to do with British and Irish does it?

[Vasconcelos]

didnt know that but that does not have to do with British and Irish does it?

Not much, but those "light eyes/hair" maps are full of sh*t.

[Benacer]

That title statement is quite a stretch. Y-DNA only represents male lineages.

[Fire Haired]

That title statement is quite a stretch. Y-DNA only represents male lineages.

I know that which is why i said it was the weakest part of my argument. Put since red hair shows huge signs of being spread to west Europe from Germanic Italo Celts and that British and Irish have the most originally before Germanic invasion it would have been 10-15% in Britian and Ireland. Also Gedorsian shows huge signs of also being spread to west Europe by Germanic Italo Celts because R1b orignally was from the mid east and that mid east blood still pops up in aust dna. And the British isles have the most. So i can at least say they have the most blood and probably mainly decended from Germanic Italo Celts that arrived in west Europe about 5,000ybp. Then iu can see how i showed that England and lowlands of scotland both have their own Anglo Saxon language are probably mainly decended from Germanic tribes from around Netherlands and Denmark. What this shows is two times in British history people groups were nearlly completly killed off in war. And that people in the British isles mainly descend from Celtic (3,000-4,300ybp) and Germanic invaders (400ad-600ad). Really everyone in the world's genetics is a results of war and migrations over thousands of years. Mainly Europeans, mid easterns, and Indians because those areas have had the technology to make huge invasions and conquer large areas since really the Neolithic age.

[Fire Haired]

Not much, but those "light eyes/hair" maps are full of sh*t.

I turst them they make sense to me. I have noticed people in Britian, Ireland, and Germany have basically the same amount of light hair and eyes. While French have alot more dark hair and eyes and these maps show that Spanish and Italians are almost only dark haired and eyed. And From the Scandinavians i have seen it is true they are mainly light haired and eyed these maps are form real studies they seem totally liget. Maybe they are not perfectly accurate but pretty close.

[Vasconcelos]

I turst them they make sense to me. I have noticed people in Britian, Ireland, and Germany have basically the same amount of light hair and eyes. While French have alot more dark hair and eyes and these maps show that Spanish and Italians are almost only dark haired and eyed. And From the Scandinavians i have seen it is true they are mainly light haired and eyed these maps are form real studies they seem totally liget. Maybe they are not perfectly accurate but pretty close.

How much have you travelled around Europe? You're 15, I bet you haven't set foot on all those countries you named more than once (or once, even), so what makes sense to you can and probably is far from the truth. People like you are usually heavily based on stereotypes and false perceptions of truth.

And no, the maps are not "from real studies" - at least the pigmentation ones.

[Fire Haired]

How much have you travelled around Europe? You're 15, I bet you haven't set foot on all those countries you named more than once (or once, even), so what makes sense to you can and probably is far from the truth. People like you are usually heavily based on stereotypes and false perceptions of truth.

And no, the maps are not "from real studies" - at least the pigmentation ones.

I live in probably the most diverse city in the world and have for my whole live. There are many full blooded polish, Russian, Sicilan and other Italian, Full blooded Spanish hispanic's, My family is orignally from the mid west farmers were almost everyone is German. The amish are full blooded Germans. I have seen full blooded Swedish, Finnish, Irish, Serbian, Bosnian, Romanien's. And i have seen many people of mixed British ancestry. I did go to the UK as a really little kid. I have seen full blooded native americans there is a center in my neigherhood, Chinese, Koreans, Japense. There are tons and tons of INdian and Pakistni people in the neighborhood. I have seen people many people from Nepal. Of course i have seen african americans so west Africans, i have seen tall and skinny east africans. Sudense who have supringly pale skin and Caucasian looking faces since they have so Y DNA J1, Southwest asian in globe13 aust dna test they are mainly from the nubains who had constant contcat with north african and arab Caucasians.

I have seen almost no French and not that many Spainish or Portugese. JUst about all white Americans are a mix of many diff countries in Europe, the two main ones UK and Germany. but way more from Germany if u look at famous american last names almost all are in the English language like Smith and Williams so the UK. I know i cant speak as an expert but from what i have seen these maps are pretty accurate.

[Jackson]

Yes our main mixtures are - on the Celtic side - basically a mixture of insular Celtic (so Irish/northern British-like) and French-like DNA and our main Germanic mixtures are Danish/German with a smaller amount of Dutch-like and Norwegian/Swedish-like DNA. So your average person from the British Isles is a mix of French, Insular British/Irish, German and Scandinavian. Although it varies quite a bit by region, and seemingly it varies a fair bit between families (although they should be quite representative of their origins).

[Peikko]

They still have some good I1-admix, so they're not completely middle easterners.

[Jackson]

They still have some good I1-admix, so they're not completely middle easterners.

Somewhat ironic being that I is the brother of J. xP

[Peikko]

Somewhat ironic being that I is the brother of J. xP
Heh, yeah.. I and J have same father IJ. But hey, which of the haplogroups is European, really? :P

[safinator]

I haplogroup hasn't yet been in found in any Mesolithic or Paleolithic burials as for now... just saying.

[Fire Haired]

Yes our main mixtures are - on the Celtic side - basically a mixture of insular Celtic (so Irish/northern British-like) and French-like DNA and our main Germanic mixtures are Danish/German with a smaller amount of Dutch-like and Norwegian/Swedish-like DNA. So your average person from the British Isles is a mix of French, Insular British/Irish, German and Scandinavian. Although it varies quite a bit by region, and seemingly it varies a fair bit between families (although they should be quite representative of their origins).

When u are saying this stuff u got to show DNA evidence and other stuff like hair color. It seems like English are a mix of Insular Celtic so like Wlesh, Irish, and Highlander Scottish. and form Germanic tribes who originated around Netherlands and Denmark. Angeals, Saxons, Juts. If anything English probably have mainly ancestry from Germanic tribes. They have a higher percentage of Y DNa spread by those Germans into Britian R1b S21, I1, I2a2 than they do INsular Celtic R1b L21 and other very minor haplogroups they had like I2a2a1 and I2a1b3. Also English percenatge of fair hair is higher than Irish or Welsh and more like Northern Germans and Danish. Also their percentage of red hair is 5-10% unlike Irish, welsh, and Highlander scottish which is 10-15%. Netherlans and most of Denmark also have 5-10% red hair. All DNA from the German side of English points them to the exact area history tells us they came from. There are even deep deep subclades of R1b S21 that are only found in England lowlands of Scotland and Netherlands. I would say people in the lowlands of Scotland probably have a little more Insular Celtic but since they had their own versuon of Anglo Saxon and high amount of Germanic Y DNA they defintley have alot of German blood.

[Fire Haired]

Somewhat ironic being that I is the brother of J. xP

Does not really matter Europeans are in the Caucasian family so that includes mid easterns and north africans. It is not a surprise the only for sure Paleoithic Cro magnon European haplogroup of the brother to mid eastern J. click here (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/) and here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84356-Human-family-tree-Discovered-through-DNA). Basicalley through aust dna which is suppose to tell ur full ancestry click here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CEEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.isogg.org%2Fwiki%2FAutosomal_ DNA&ei=nVsqUtS_OIePrgGTn4DoAw&usg=AFQjCNG8NuxkUWi-3fPmcn4czYal0U-tAA&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWM). Palces the only for sure Paleothic Cro magnon european group and only group to orignate in Europe called North Euro it is a very close brother to west Asian. The north euro group is what makes europeans european in a way and is closer to west asian than any other aust dna group is to each other closer than east asian and siberian. Sp when looking at DNA u should not be surprised when u see mid eastern people also have alot of mtDNA U and H. Or that many have the same genes that are suppose to cause pale skin in europeans. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91397-Supposedly-Euro-light-skin-genes-are-popular-in-all-Caucasins-and-exists-in-about-all-Humans)

[Fire Haired]

I haplogroup hasn't yet been in found in any Mesolithic or Paleolithic burials as for now... just saying.

Neither has any haplogroup. But all I subclades we know originated in Europe. age estimates of hg I show a very old paternal line in Europe going back to the Paleolithic age(cro magnon times) probably going back over 30,000 years. There have been two 5,000 year old I2a1a M26 samples in Neloithic southwestern France. Even though they were farmers with mainly G2a some of the hunter gather paternal lineages survived.

[Graham]

You should be weary of tagging any Haplogroup, to any ancient group of people, unless that group has been tested. Rather than equating it to the modern populations.

[Jackson]

When u are saying this stuff u got to show DNA evidence and other stuff like hair color. It seems like English are a mix of Insular Celtic so like Wlesh, Irish, and Highlander Scottish. and form Germanic tribes who originated around Netherlands and Denmark. Angeals, Saxons, Juts. If anything English probably have mainly ancestry from Germanic tribes. They have a higher percentage of Y DNa spread by those Germans into Britian R1b S21, I1, I2a2 than they do INsular Celtic R1b L21 and other very minor haplogroups they had like I2a2a1 and I2a1b3. Also English percenatge of fair hair is higher than Irish or Welsh and more like Northern Germans and Danish. Also their percentage of red hair is 5-10% unlike Irish, welsh, and Highlander scottish which is 10-15%. Netherlans and most of Denmark also have 5-10% red hair. All DNA from the German side of English points them to the exact area history tells us they came from. There are even deep deep subclades of R1b S21 that are only found in England lowlands of Scotland and Netherlands. I would say people in the lowlands of Scotland probably have a little more Insular Celtic but since they had their own versuon of Anglo Saxon and high amount of Germanic Y DNA they defintley have alot of German blood.

Yes well my evidence is basically what you have already presented + information from the POBI (People of the British Isles project). But i agree. For the English at least our closest relatives are Dutch people, although most of our Germanic ancestry is actually from northern Germany & Denmark like you say, we just average out near to them.

I also found it interesting that in a recent academic paper about IBD (I think it was IBD) but basically shared genetic segments was released, and in regards to the UK there was a group that were very close to and showed a lot of sharing with the Irish, and a group that were close to and showed a lot of sharing with the Germans, and a few in-between. I guess the ones close to the Irish were mainly from the western edges of Britain, the ones closest to the Germans are southern, eastern and central English, and the ones in-between are from the zones in-between these two groups.

It was also pretty clear before this new information too, as at least in my family closest populations usually go: 1(English) 2(Dutch,German,Danish) 3(Cornish) 4(Norwegian,Irish,Swedish) 4(French). Which basically just shows we are a mix of all these groups in ancient terms i guess.Also with IBD i have highest sharing outside the UK with Dutch, Danish, Norwegian people. I guess German was lower down because more samples were from more inland Germany, whereas most of the Germans that emigrated to Britain were more from the northern coastal regions close to the Netherlands and Denmark, with less from more inland areas.

I think we're lucky to have our heritage mainly from two really interesting para-groups. Or at least i think they are interesting anyway lol, average person in the street probably hasn't even heard of them. Well they will have heard of the Celts, but have no (or little) clue about their history and culture. :(

Although you do seem to place rather a lot of importance on red hair, it is interesting that you talk about red hair vs fair hair in general. It's true that east, south and central England have the lowest levels of red hair, and they also have the lowest levels of R1b-L21. And although i don't think we are as light haired as the northern Germans & Danes, that can probably be explained to a large segment of French-like DNA in southern Britain in particular (i think it peaks in the Welsh and Cornish). I think Wales has more dark hair and also more red hair, so that would make sense. So i guess we sit between the rest of the British Isles, the Germans and the French in terms of pigmentation, although closest to the first two.

[Jackson]

Does not really matter Europeans are in the Caucasian family so that includes mid easterns and north africans. It is not a surprise the only for sure Paleoithic Cro magnon European haplogroup of the brother to mid eastern J. click here (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/) and here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84356-Human-family-tree-Discovered-through-DNA). Basicalley through aust dna which is suppose to tell ur full ancestry click here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CEEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.isogg.org%2Fwiki%2FAutosomal_ DNA&ei=nVsqUtS_OIePrgGTn4DoAw&usg=AFQjCNG8NuxkUWi-3fPmcn4czYal0U-tAA&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWM). Palces the only for sure Paleothic Cro magnon european group and only group to orignate in Europe called North Euro it is a very close brother to west Asian. The north euro group is what makes europeans european in a way and is closer to west asian than any other aust dna group is to each other closer than east asian and siberian. Sp when looking at DNA u should not be surprised when u see mid eastern people also have alot of mtDNA U and H. Or that many have the same genes that are suppose to cause pale skin in europeans. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91397-Supposedly-Euro-light-skin-genes-are-popular-in-all-Caucasins-and-exists-in-about-all-Humans)

I know i was just being a little silly. :)

I do find it really interesting that the main divide between north and south Europe is because of a clear East-West genetic blok in the north and a Mediterranean one in the south. It's an interesting geographical genetic divide and probably not what you would think if you looked just at the geography alone.

[Fire Haired]

I know i was just being a little silly. :)

I do find it really interesting that the main divide between north and south Europe is because of a clear East-West genetic blok in the north and a Mediterranean one in the south. It's an interesting geographical genetic divide and probably not what you would think if you looked just at the geography alone.

I think it is alot more complicated. Italians, Greeks, and southeast Europeans show alot of mid eastern blood form around syria and Iraq. In globe13 test Italians and Greeks average 15-18% southwest asian and 20-24% west asian then it decrease as u go north in Italy and away from Greece but is still popular in southeast Europe like Bulgaria, romania, Serbia(all of former Yugoslavia). Since Sardine people who have mainly Y DNA that was in Europe during the Neloithic and Mesloithic age. And have been shown to be closest reltives to Otzie the ice man 5,300ybp farmer from alps italy. And their aust dna results are the closest to what two Neloithic samples had. They live on a island right next to Italy i dont know but it males sense their ancestors 6,000-8,000ybp were in Italy. They show a little more mid eastern than most Europeans the same amount as those Neolithic farmers but much less than Italians. Sothat mid eastern blood in Italians and southeast Europeans is probably from Greco Roman age which could explain why it gets more popular the more south u go.

For Spainish and Portugese aka Iberian. They dont show any more mid eastern than other western Europeans exceopt they had 7-9% southwest asian and the rest of west europe 3-5% probably because of inter marriage with north Africans. The main group in the globe13 test for the two neolithic samples was Mediterranean over 59% in both and 72% in sardine it is second highest in Iberians at 50-60%, the rest of west europe averages 35-40%, south and central Scandinavia 25-35%, east of Germany and north of Romania 25-35%, east of Germany south of Ukriane 35-45%, Italy and Greece around 40%. So the only thing that differs between Iberian with Germans and British is more med and less north euro. French have more med than Germans but less than Iberians.

Paleolithic-Mesloithic European group north euro is by far most popular in Sami-Finnish and far eastern Europeans. Were it is over 70% over 78% in Finnish the reason is they were farther away from 60-80% med, 10-1% Southwest asian, 5-10% west asian farmers. It also increases east of Germany so in Germany 59% Poland 68%. Shows a obvious divide between west and east Europe the percentages of med go down east of Germany same with west Asian but southwest Asian goes up a little bit.

[Fire Haired]

Yes well my evidence is basically what you have already presented + information from the POBI (People of the British Isles project). But i agree. For the English at least our closest relatives are Dutch people, although most of our Germanic ancestry is actually from northern Germany & Denmark like you say, we just average out near to them.

I also found it interesting that in a recent academic paper about IBD (I think it was IBD) but basically shared genetic segments was released, and in regards to the UK there was a group that were very close to and showed a lot of sharing with the Irish, and a group that were close to and showed a lot of sharing with the Germans, and a few in-between. I guess the ones close to the Irish were mainly from the western edges of Britain, the ones closest to the Germans are southern, eastern and central English, and the ones in-between are from the zones in-between these two groups.

It was also pretty clear before this new information too, as at least in my family closest populations usually go: 1(English) 2(Dutch,German,Danish) 3(Cornish) 4(Norwegian,Irish,Swedish) 4(French). Which basically just shows we are a mix of all these groups in ancient terms i guess.Also with IBD i have highest sharing outside the UK with Dutch, Danish, Norwegian people. I guess German was lower down because more samples were from more inland Germany, whereas most of the Germans that emigrated to Britain were more from the northern coastal regions close to the Netherlands and Denmark, with less from more inland areas.

I think we're lucky to have our heritage mainly from two really interesting para-groups. Or at least i think they are interesting anyway lol, average person in the street probably hasn't even heard of them. Well they will have heard of the Celts, but have no (or little) clue about their history and culture. :(

Although you do seem to place rather a lot of importance on red hair, it is interesting that you talk about red hair vs fair hair in general. It's true that east, south and central England have the lowest levels of red hair, and they also have the lowest levels of R1b-L21. And although i don't think we are as light haired as the northern Germans & Danes, that can probably be explained to a large segment of French-like DNA in southern Britain in particular (i think it peaks in the Welsh and Cornish). I think Wales has more dark hair and also more red hair, so that would make sense. So i guess we sit between the rest of the British Isles, the Germans and the French in terms of pigmentation, although closest to the first two.

DNA shows English are a mix of Insular Celtic and Germanic from around Netherlands and Denmark. I dont think there is any signs of French/Gaulic blood. When looking at hair color fair hair is under 20% in most of France so they are very dark haired about as dark haired as Iberians and Italians. There was red hair in Angeal, Saxons, and Juts and Insular Celts. Just Insular Celts had 10-15% Angeals, Saxons, and Juts 5-10% or 3-5% so that is why England and lowlands of Scotland have less red hair than Wales, Ireland, and highlands of Scotland, I think the north Germanic blood is also why they have more fair hair. The reason i put emphases on red hair is because of obvious shows a difference between English lowland scottish and the rest of the UK showing they have some diff ancestry.

[Jackson]

DNA shows English are a mix of Insular Celtic and Germanic from around Netherlands and Denmark. I dont think there is any signs of French/Gaulic blood. When looking at hair color fair hair is under 20% in most of France so they are very dark haired about as dark haired as Iberians and Italians. There was red hair in Angeal, Saxons, and Juts and Insular Celts. Just Insular Celts had 10-15% Angeals, Saxons, and Juts 5-10% or 3-5% so that is why England and lowlands of Scotland have less red hair than Wales, Ireland, and highlands of Scotland, I think the north Germanic blood is also why they have more fair hair. The reason i put emphases on red hair is because of obvious shows a difference between English lowland scottish and the rest of the UK showing they have some diff ancestry.

Well the largest ever genetic survey of the British Isles found that there's a significant chunk of (basically Gallic-like) French DNA in southern Britain, it may be fairly ancient - And basically links the Celtic world in Britain with that in France, which makes sense.

[Jackson]

DNA shows English are a mix of Insular Celtic and Germanic from around Netherlands and Denmark. I dont think there is any signs of French/Gaulic blood. When looking at hair color fair hair is under 20% in most of France so they are very dark haired about as dark haired as Iberians and Italians. There was red hair in Angeal, Saxons, and Juts and Insular Celts. Just Insular Celts had 10-15% Angeals, Saxons, and Juts 5-10% or 3-5% so that is why England and lowlands of Scotland have less red hair than Wales, Ireland, and highlands of Scotland, I think the north Germanic blood is also why they have more fair hair. The reason i put emphases on red hair is because of obvious shows a difference between English lowland scottish and the rest of the UK showing they have some diff ancestry.

It's a good point to raise actually, there is a clear genetic difference that can be seen in hair colour i agree.

[Jackson]

Here is a link to the images from the POBI project, see what you make of them:

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/Royal%20Society%20exhibit%20Jul%202012d.pdf

[Fire Haired]

You should be weary of tagging any Haplogroup, to any ancient group of people, unless that group has been tested. Rather than equating it to the modern populations.

That is really skeptical type of talk alot of old INdo European experts say. The evdience is amazing there is no doubt there are connection with certain Y DNa and spread of Indo European languages and Y DNA from their pre histroic bronze age cultures totally back it up. If u keep saying that u wont be able to discover lots of things. DNA is a new way to figure things out about Human history and it has done alot. Y DNA spread by Indo Europeans (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91971-Y-DNA-spread-by-Indo-Europeans-(R1a1a1-M417-R1b1a2a1-L51)-(R1b1a2a-L23-R1b1a1-M73-Etc-))

[Fire Haired]

Well the largest ever genetic survey of the British Isles found that there's a significant chunk of (basically Gallic-like) French DNA in southern Britain, it may be fairly ancient - And basically links the Celtic world in Britain with that in France, which makes sense.

Hallstatt Gaulic culture did reach southern Britain
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Hallstatt_La_Tene_map.gif

Which could explain why Italo Gaulish Urnfield R1b S28 is found in Britian. If u dont know what i mean by Urnfield R1b S28 click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe)
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

So i defintley think there is some Gaulic/French blood in southern Britain because of contact with Gauls.

[Smaug]

Good thread mate. I enjoy your posts.

[Jackson]

Good thread mate. I enjoy your posts.

I do as well. It's good to see someone else who knows a lot about genetics and is really interested. :)

[hobosmurf]

I haven't read as much on this but according to David Miles 80% of the british genome goes directly to ice age hunter gatherers, and there are more redheads in wales and scotland than elsewhere. The y-dna groups of invaders who become the ruling group are more widespread than the actual full genome since they usually become the fathers

[Fire Haired]

I haven't read as much on this but according to David Miles 80% of the british genome goes directly to ice age hunter gatherers, and there are more redheads in wales and scotland than elsewhere. The y-dna groups of invaders who become the ruling group are more widespread than the actual full genome since they usually become the fathers

It doesn't seem like that. We do know the Germanic invasions 400-600ad(angeals, Jutes, and Saxons). Brought huge genetic input into England and Lowlands of Scotland not just in Y DNa. Because of hair color differnce. So why couldnt Insular Celts who invaded 3,000-4,300ybp have done the same or worse. I showed all the evidence i have that people in the British isles are almost only decended from Celtic and Germanic invaders. so for irish Celtic invaders. Britian was not heavily settled till 11,000-9,000ybp. then before u know it u have farming spreading there about 6,000-5,000ybp. And by looking at ancient DNa the farmers that spread to at least western Europe. in aust dna(tell full ancestry) they were very meditreaen that is the group they are dominted by most tests call it med. They also had traces of west asian and southwest asian with some north euro from inter marriage with hunter gathers in europe. Their Y DNa mainly G2a with some E1b1b V13 and possibly some J1 and J2.

The farmers could have killed of the hunter gathers that lived there before we don't really know who the pre Celtic people of Britain and Ireland were anyways. Then the Celts came probably starting 4,000ybp. So Britian and Ireland have been contently invaded by new people.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The only remnant that's largely intact is in connacht and the more remote parts of scotland and wales. Otherwise it's all mixed in through the isles. For england though, really nothing was left of HGs except what moved there later through mixing.

[Jackson]

The only remnant that's largely intact is in connacht and the more remote parts of scotland and wales. Otherwise it's all mixed in through the isles. For england though, really nothing was left of HGs except what moved there later through mixing.

This is a good point. One thing that is clear is that there doesn't seem to be more than a handful of places (as you mentioned above) where more recent ancestry is negligible or non-existant, as there have been English incursions into most of Wales, Scotland and Ireland, and also vice versa large amounts of immigration from Scotland, Wales and Ireland to England. Of course i guess genetically you wouldn't be able to tell most of the time, if the periods you are looking at are pre most non-elite genealogies. But definitely the old genetic barriers (that are still visible) must have softened significantly over the years, more so since English has been the lingua-Franca across the British Isles for a while, and even in areas where there are/were large survivals of the previous language it is the second or first most spoken language. With less of a language/culture barrier people seem to be much more willing to move and mingle.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTKvPCZJdvU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOfKecvClvw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWudBCYO8ZE

The nordics invaded celtic/germanic lands, but this doesnt make the nordics true germanics...the invaded ones were the true celtic/germanic people/thracians/scythians/etruscans/goth phoenicians etc (basques and catalans) aka the original europeans and thats a fact like the huge muscle hanging between my legs.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

http://www.ensignmessage.com/basques.html

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/humanmig.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKa-ultG4tg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB0xt0aO_3Y

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-6iUwrjCgw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI6e5j489a8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyit_AULVhM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeumPVmj0ms