Classify Ardian Krasniqi

[Pleurat]

Place of Origin:
Gjakovë, Kosovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%90akovica)

Height:
172 cm / 5 ft. 8

http://i.imgur.com/XT06ZIO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/B0QmWPR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SOgc1GA.jpg

[Drawing-slim]

Wow, interesting. He looks like a typical face from from a certain area of malsia e madhe. People I went to school with.
His wide face, Coon specifically points out it must be pre-Illyrian.

[Roy]

Lighter sort of Alpinoid maybe?
Probably can pass in Central Europe, but rather not Poland.

[Pleurat]

Wow, interesting. He looks like a typical face from from a certain area of malsia e madhe. People I went to school with.
His wide face, Coon specifically points out it must be pre-Illyrian.

He is from Krasniqi tribe that belongs to the highlands of Gjakova. Gjakovars and Malsors are blood brothers and very similair in look.

[Pleurat]

Lighter sort of Alpinoid maybe?
Probably can pass in Central Europe, but rather not Poland.

That is why i wanted to classify him, he doesn't seem dinarid influenced.

[Pleurat]

Wow, interesting. He looks like a typical face from from a certain area of malsia e madhe. People I went to school with.
His wide face, Coon specifically points out it must be pre-Illyrian.

Which is this certain area btw?

[Kalimtari]

ska shum dallime mes Shqiptarve

[Pleurat]

ska shum dallime mes Shqiptarve

Midis malsorve dhe te tjerve ka.

[Drawing-slim]

Which is this certain area btw?
Kastrat.But not the whole Kastrati though, is this particular village, Muslim village that almost all the guys at this kid's age look like him.

[Kalimtari]

Midis malsorve dhe te tjerve ka.

un nuk e kam verejt

[bimo]

alpo-nordid+CM

[Pleurat]

Kastrat.But not the whole Kastrati though, is this particular village, Muslim village that almost all the guys at this kid's age look like him.

Pure illyrians probably like these guys:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92109-Classify-Dardan-Rrexhepi/page2

[Pleurat]

un nuk e kam verejt

Cfare thu mer burr i dheut e si nuk ka ndyshime???? Malsoret jane shume me te gjate, me muskuloz, me te celet ne sy dhe flok dhe me tipare me te ndryshme.

[dralos]

borreby with nordid influences

[Kalimtari]

Cfare thu mer burr i dheut e si nuk ka ndyshime???? Malsoret jane shume me te gjate, me muskuloz, me te celet ne sy dhe flok dhe me tipare me te ndryshme.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqRlSGHqMpE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-wV-rBBBbc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST3STYILAZE


mi trego kto dallimet, te lutem

[Drawing-slim]

Pure illyrians probably like these guys:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92109-Classify-Dardan-Rrexhepi/page2
Yup!

[Zmey Gorynych]

Norid/Alpinoid.

[Pleurat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqRlSGHqMpE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-wV-rBBBbc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST3STYILAZE


mi trego kto dallimet, te lutem

shiko or burr, se edhe une si ty kam qen dikur, nacionalist per te gjith e budallaliqe te tjera derisa fillova te shetisja shqipnin e veriut dhe laberine e kuptova se ka dallime ndonjehere shume te medha, duhet te fillosh te uptosh antropologjine...

une kam qen ne nikaj mertur... gjysma e n jerezve jane me sy gri ose blu dhe ka shume norid, shume borreby she shume dinaro cm, dhe bjondet e erret jane norme....


e njejte gje eshte eshte edhe na malsine e madhe, dukagjin, tropoj, puke, diber, peshkopi etj etj..


kengetari me i famshem i nikaj merturit asht nikolin perpali i cili eshte klasifikuar si norid/nordid bjond i arte:

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/7pUW6tVpQR8/hqdefault.jpg


le te mos flasim per gjatsine pastaj.....


neper malsi fenotipet kryesore jane dinarid, dinaro CM ( borreby) , norid, norid CM, north pontid, dinaro-nordid, alpin, apin CM, alpino/med dhe pontid jane gati jo ekzistent....

[Kalimtari]

plako, faleminers per shpjegim, por un te Malsort te krahinave tona (rreth liqenit) se kam verejt ket. Bile bile, jemi shum her edhe ma te erret se, le te themi, Kosovart.

[Pleurat]

plako, faleminers per shpjegim, por un te Malsort te krahinave tona (rreth liqenit) se kam verejt ket. Bile bile, jemi shum her edhe ma te erret se, le te themi, Kosovart.

ti je dukagjinas, e dukagjinasit nuk jane edhe aq te celt, por prapr edhe dukagjinasit kane goxha CM ( borreby) tipare te forta dinarike dhe jane gjigande ne gjatesi. gjigande!!

[Kalimtari]

nga Hoti jam, Dukagjini asht afer, por prap edhe jo aq fort.

kta jan Hotjant/Kastratasit (nga te dy anat):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFMBog0E6XM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7XYBgo7uFA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYsWwzoVSKE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA_v6TlJ_Xk

[Sikeliot]

Kind of looks Baltic European to me.

[Pleurat]

Kind of looks Baltic European to me.

His eyes are borrbey, not baltid, but I get your point.

[Kalimtari]

ti je dukagjinas, e dukagjinasit nuk jane edhe aq te celt, por prapr edhe dukagjinasit kane goxha CM ( borreby) tipare te forta dinarike dhe jane gjigande ne gjatesi. gjigande!!

kqyri Dukagjinasit (kangtarja asht nga Hoti)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBjVmj5UQUI

[el22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqRlSGHqMpE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-wV-rBBBbc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST3STYILAZE


mi trego kto dallimet, te lutem

I don't understand much about anthropology yet, but even I can tell that the singers in the following two clips are of two different peoples.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3c5dlRJJiY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ukCUA6jNMY

[Pleurat]

Kam pa me qindra dukagjinas mer burr, mos e verit menjen.

[Pleurat]

I don't understand much about anthropology yet, but even I can tell that the singers in the following two clips are of two different peoples.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3c5dlRJJiY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ukCUA6jNMY



Paroja eshte alpinCM, tipike labe.

[Vogon Poet]

Mbas opinionit tem malsorët edhe Illiridasit janë ma të erreta sesa Kosovarët edhe Toskët, sidomos Çamët janë të njohur për pigmentimi të celet (mbas fjala e gojes). Dhe njerëzit të rrethinës e Vlores përherë mu duken të celet. Po edhe ashtu nuk ka ndonje dallim kaq të madhë, kjo është vetëm variacion normale qe gjindet me një popull.

[Kalimtari]

shumica e Shqiptarve sjemi as te erret as te celet; hazel eyes, pale skin, chestnut/brown hair, mundesh me than mesatarja europiane

[Kalimtari]

I don't understand much about anthropology yet, but even I can tell that the singers in the following two clips are of two different peoples.



Gheg people vs Tosk people? They are the same people, bro

[Pleurat]

Mbas opinionit tem malsorët edhe Illiridasit janë ma të erreta sesa Kosovarët edhe Toskët, sidomos Çamët janë të njohur për pigmentimi të celet (mbas fjala e gojes). Dhe njerëzit të rrethinës e Vlores përherë mu duken të celet. Po edhe ashtu nuk ka ndonje dallim kaq të madhë, kjo është vetëm variacion normale qe gjindet me një popull.

Vetem camet nuk jane te celet, po e kunderta.... vlonjatet jane te celet se jane lab dhe kete e kam then shpesh ne ket forum.... malsoret jane me te celet se mesatarja shqiptare por jane gjithashtu edhe shume te gjate dhe shume europiane ne tipare.

[el22]

Gheg people vs Tosk people? They are the same people, bro

Any Albanian born in USA is as much the same people with a Greek, Italian, Bulgar, Serb, etc. born in USA, as Gheg is the same with Tosk. The only thing Ghegs and Tosks have in common is the language and the fact that they identify with the same ethnicity. The aforementioned people, for as long as they speak USA English and identify as Americans are as much the same.

Now that I think of it, Americans of different ethnic backgrounds are much more the same culturally and homogeneous than Ghegs and Tosks are, even though USA is a much younger "ethnicity". And this is to show how different Ghegs and Tosks are.

[Pleurat]

What do you mean el22, what differences that are so big do you see about the 2 groups you mentioned?

[el22]

What do you mean el22, what differences that are so big do you see about the 2 groups you mentioned?

Well, what differences have people of different ethnic backgrounds that live for several generations in USA?

[Pleurat]

Well, what differences have people of different ethnic backgrounds that live for several generations in USA?

Do you consider ghegs and tosks 2 different people?

[el22]

Do you consider ghegs and tosks 2 different people?

Except for the fact that they speak the same language (not quite the same in their dialects) and identifying with the same ethnicity (both things that Americans living for some generations in USA also share), I can't find any other thing to justify the idea of being the same people. From the traditional dressings, to the traditional songs, the instruments used, the traditional dances, ways of building houses, mentality (clans, blood feuds) etc. I see Americans even more homogeneous than Ghegs and Tosks, and 'American' is quite a new ethnicity.

While my anthropological senses are rather undeveloped at the moment, I can divide Ghegs in two main groups:
* One group that has that characteristic look that is not similar with any other people, and can't pass as anything other than Gheg
* and the other group that can pass as something else, including Tosk, but can pass even more easy as other ethnicities.
If Ghegs would speak Serbo-Croato-Bosnian, they would be as similar to other ex-Yugos as they are to Tosks.

[Vogon Poet]

Vetem camet nuk jane te celet, po e kunderta.... vlonjatet jane te celet se jane lab dhe kete e kam then shpesh ne ket forum.... malsoret jane me te celet se mesatarja shqiptare por jane gjithashtu edhe shume te gjate dhe shume europiane ne tipare.

Unë për Çamët nuk mund të flas. Apo malësorët mu duken ma të zeshkant sesa mesatari. Dallim të madh nuk ekziston, po është një dallim të vogël. Të gjithë dukemi ndryshe prej shumica e popullëve të tjerë Evropiane: tipare Evropiane, po; tipare sikur popullet të tjer, jo.


Any Albanian born in USA is as much the same people with a Greek, Italian, Bulgar, Serb, etc. born in USA, as Gheg is the same with Tosk. The only thing Ghegs and Tosks have in common is the language and the fact that they identify with the same ethnicity. The aforementioned people, for as long as they speak USA English and identify as Americans are as much the same.

Now that I think of it, Americans of different ethnic backgrounds are much more the same culturally and homogeneous than Ghegs and Tosks are, even though USA is a much younger "ethnicity". And this is to show how different Ghegs and Tosks are.

el22,

It's funny that you contradict yourself immadietely after making a very strong claim, language and identification just happens to be what establishes ethnicity. In other words, you claim that they are two separate people, but that they belong to the same ethnicity! Absolutely hilarious!

In spite of this, I'll give you the benefit of doubt (doubt being that you are quite wrong). What makes Albanians different people of the same ethnicity? Is it genetic? Cultural? All you have done is to make extravagant claims that are contradictory while mixing up words.

[Kalimtari]

Except for the fact that they speak the same language (not quite the same in their dialects) and identifying with the same ethnicity (both things that Americans living for some generations in USA also share), I can't find any other thing to justify the idea of being the same people. From the traditional dressings, to the traditional songs, the instruments used, the traditional dances, ways of building houses, mentality (clans, blood feuds) etc. I see Americans even more homogeneous than Ghegs and Tosks, and 'American' is quite a new ethnicity.



While my anthropological senses are rather undeveloped at the moment, I can divide Ghegs in two main groups:
* One group that has that characteristic look that is not similar with any other people, and can't pass as anything other than Gheg
* and the other group that can pass as something else, including Tosk, but can pass even more easy as other ethnicities.
If Ghegs would speak Serbo-Croato-Bosnian, they would be as similar to other ex-Yugos as they are to Tosks.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLj5wY1NZSk

I fail to see these "huge differences". There are Ghegs who call Tosks Greket, but they're simple idiots and faith-based retards.

[Kalimtari]

maturantet nga Gjirokastra:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZCaQ7Gqh28

maturantet nga Shkodra:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSJxWUiS98c

[el22]

el22,

It's funny that you contradict yourself immadietely after making a very strong claim, language and identification just happens to be what establishes ethnicity. In other words, you claim that they are two separate people, but that they belong to the same ethnicity! Absolutely hilarious!

In spite of this, I'll give you the benefit of doubt (doubt being that you are quite wrong). What makes Albanians different people of the same ethnicity? Is it genetic? Cultural? All you have done is to make extravagant claims that are contradictory while mixing up words.

Can you quote the supposed "contradictory" claims I made? I said that the only thing in common is language (something that you can learn) and self-identification (something that you can choose). If these are sufficient, as you claim, to establish an ethnicity, then Gigolo is an ethnic Austrian, and I can be an ethnic English or Italian (if I want) simply by improving my English or Italian, and 'choosing' to identify myself as such. As I said, all Americans that live in USA for a couple of generations, that speak USA English, celebrate 4 July and identify as Americans are of the same American "ethnicity" even though they may be of different ethnic backgrounds.

[Vogon Poet]

Can you quote the supposed "contradictory" claims I made? I said that the only thing in common is language (something that you can learn) and self-identification (something that you can choose). If these are sufficient, as you claim, to establish an ethnicity, then Gigolo is an ethnic Austrian, and I can be an ethnic English or Italian (if I want) simply by improving my English or Italian, and 'choosing' to identify myself as such. As I said, all Americans that live in USA for a couple of generations, that speak USA English, celebrate 4 July and identify as Americans are of the same American "ethnicity" even though they may be of different ethnic backgrounds.

Language and self-identification is ethnicity. "Ethnicity or ethnic group is a socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on a perceived shared social experience or ancestry.[1] Membership of an ethnic group tends to be associated with and ideologies of shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language or dialect, and with symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc."

I have already quoted you, "The only thing Ghegs and Tosks have in common is the language and the fact that they identify with the same ethnicity.". Here you contradict yourself by claiming earlier that Ghegs and Tosks are two separate people and then go on to say that they share the qualities that constitutes an ethnicity. To claim that A and B are different just to say through a different formulation that A and B are the same is a contradiction. This contradiction stems from your misuse and abuse of terms.

Further, you're making a straw-man argument, this is not an equivalent of the argument I made. It doesn't follow from my argument that if Ghegs and Tosks are part of the same ethnicity due to language, self-identification and so on, then Gigolo could be of Austrian ethnicity due to language, self-identification, etc. As said, it isn't logically consistent; and, what's more, you compare apples to oranges, since Gigolo is a person and Ghegs and Tosks are linguistic groups. It screams straw-man and confusion of terms.

For the record, Americans by ethnicity are rare. Most Americans identify themselves as either being of simply American nationality, or as ethnic x of American nationality, e.g., Albanian-American or German-American. These times of mass immigration into Europe has seen the same phenomenon, f.e., ethnic Turk of German nationality. The ones who identify as American by ethnicity are usually from colonial times, but even the colonials who identify as ethnic Americans are rare, most of them in the south.

[el22]

Language and self-identification is ethnicity. "Ethnicity or ethnic group is a socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on a perceived shared social experience or ancestry.[1] Membership of an ethnic group tends to be associated with and ideologies of shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language or dialect, and with symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc."

Yes, and of all those things Ghegs and Tosks share only the language and the belief that they're the same people. Both these things can (and are) taught to children. If you adopt a Japanese newborn and treat him/her just like any other Albanian kid, by the time he/she is adult, he/she will speak Albanian and believe to be Albanian. But, is he/she an ethnic Albanian?


I have already quoted you, "The only thing Ghegs and Tosks have in common is the language and the fact that they identify with the same ethnicity.". Here you contradict yourself by claiming earlier that Ghegs and Tosks are two separate people and then go on to say that they share the qualities that constitutes an ethnicity. To claim that A and B are different just to say through a different formulation that A and B are the same is a contradiction. This contradiction stems from your misuse and abuse of terms.

Well, ultimately 'ethnicity' is just a word, and it means whatever meaning we want to attach to it. One of the context in which it's frequently used is to denote something that you can't choose, such as ancestry.
Italians and Greeks are similar cases, the all speak and identify respectively as Italians and Greeks, but they don't have a common ancestry.


Further, you're making a straw-man argument, this is not an equivalent of the argument I made. It doesn't follow from my argument that if Ghegs and Tosks are part of the same ethnicity due to language, self-identification and so on, then Gigolo could be of Austrian ethnicity due to language, self-identification, etc. As said, it isn't logically consistent; and, what's more, you compare apples to oranges, since Gigolo is a person and Ghegs and Tosks are linguistic groups. It screams straw-man and confusion of terms.

This is where you're wrong. Ghegs and Tosks are not names given to two different flavors of the language. Ghegs and Tosks can speak the same official language and they're still not the same people, in their appearance, in their traditions, in their genetics. Just like Tosks and Grekified Epiriotes are the same people, in their appearance, in their way of singing, instruments used, way of dressing, and genetics. Even though they speak different languages and identify as different people now.

I used the word 'ethnicity' to refer to things that you can't choose, such as ancestry, rather than things that can be arbitrarily changed, like language and belief to be the same people, as happened with "Greeks" two centuries ago.


For the record, Americans by ethnicity are rare. Most Americans identify themselves as either being of simply American nationality, or as ethnic x of American nationality, e.g., Albanian-American or German-American. These times of mass immigration into Europe has seen the same phenomenon, f.e., ethnic Turk of German nationality. The ones who identify as American by ethnicity are usually from colonial times, but even the colonials who identify as ethnic Americans are rare, most of them in the south.

The only difference between new-world and old-world is that new-world is newer. Still, you have Americans that identify as 'ethnic' Americans (Superior American / Vallahan used to keep this position some time ago), and old-worlders (like Peyroll) who said several times that Italian is a nationality, not an ethnicity.

[Vogon Poet]

Yes, and of all those things Ghegs and Tosks share only the language and the belief that they're the same people. Both these things can (and are) taught to children. If you adopt a Japanese newborn and treat him/her just like any other Albanian kid, by the time he/she is adult, he/she will speak Albanian and believe to be Albanian. But, is he/she an ethnic Albanian?

Straw-man.




Well, ultimately 'ethnicity' is just a word, and it means whatever meaning we want to attach to it.

Words need strict and commonly understood definitions.


One of the context in which it's frequently used is to denote something that you can't choose, such as ancestry.
Italians and Greeks are similar cases, the all speak and identify respectively as Italians and Greeks, but they don't have a common ancestry.

Which is why I asked you earlier to explain to me what it is that makes Ghegs and Tosks different people. What you seem to imply is that they have different ancestry. Ancestry is important, but ethnicity is based on many things. If it were only about ancestry



This is where you're wrong. Ghegs and Tosks are not names given to two different flavors of the language. Ghegs and Tosks can speak the same official language and they're still not the same people, in their appearance, in their traditions, in their genetics. Just like Tosks and Grekified Epiriotes are the same people, in their appearance, in their way of singing, instruments used, way of dressing, and genetics. Even though they speak different languages and identify as different people now.

Gheg and Tosk are dialectical divisions of Albanian, not different languages. The people in the respective Gheg and Tosk areas happen to have cultures that are specific to their region, but that's normal anywhere, all regions tend to have their peculiarities, it's not because they're different people. There are even sub-divisions among Tosks. Does that, too, mean that there is no Tosk ethnicity?

According to a genetic study, Albanians are the genetically most homogeneous population in Europe. Not only that, we grew out of a small founder population. In other words, we have the same roots.

Other than that, you're exaggerating. Many of the cultural aspects, clothing, etc., commonly associated with Tosks exist among Ghegs, too. Polyphonic singing, the fustanella (which existed as far as Montenegro, and probably originated in Northern Albania), and so on. On the other hand, Tosks had some traits typically associated with Ghegs, like clans, but there it was called 'fara' instead of 'fis', a tradition which the Vlora area probably maintained the longest.

For appearance, the truth is somewhere in between. I do see some differences, but they're not great. Variation is normal in every population. Yet how does this argument hold? It's not like Ghegs look Korean and Tosks look Indian. And perhaps we should divide everyone into tiny ethnicities of look-alikes, then, since not all Ghegs or Tosks look the same?



I used the word 'ethnicity' to refer to things that you can't choose, such as ancestry, rather than things that can be arbitrarily changed, like language and belief to be the same people, as happened with "Greeks" two centuries ago.


Ok. This isn't relevant for Ghegs and Tosks, though. Your argument is still a straw-man, anyway. And it's funny how you choose different definitions when it's convenient. Apparently, the language you and your ancestors were immersed in since birth is something you can choose, while ancestry isn't, as if there is no connection between the two. That's inconsistent of you.


The only difference between new-world and old-world is that new-world is newer. Still, you have Americans that identify as 'ethnic' Americans (Superior American / Vallahan used to keep this position some time ago), and old-worlders (like Peyroll) who said several times that Italian is a nationality, not an ethnicity.

That's Italy, which is an amalgation of scores of Italic city states. Italy can't be compared to the new world. While it certainly isn't homogeneous, it's not a mixture of unrelated people from the whole world. But even if Italian is a nationality, not an ethnicity, it wouldn't imply that the same is true for Albanian.

[safinator]

West Baltid

[Pleurat]

West Baltid

He is not baltic, rather Subnordid CM.

[safinator]

Gjithsesi jam dakord qe malsoret jane me gjate dhe me muskuloz sesa mesatarja Shqiptare por nuk jam dakord persa i perket pigmentacionit, nuk jane me te çelet sipas mendimit tim.

[Vogon Poet]

Gjithsesi jam dakord qe malsoret jane me gjate dhe me muskuloz sesa mesatarja Shqiptare por nuk jam dakord persa i perket pigmentacionit, nuk jane me te çelet sipas mendimit tim.

Nëse vëzhgon këta njerëzit qe pohojn se malësorët janë grupi Shqiptar ma të celet, shumica janë malësorë qe mendojnë se pigmentacioni të errët është trashëgimi se përzierjes se Shqiptarëve fusharake me Turqit dhe popullate të tjerë jo-Evropiane... Logjika malokut. :P

[Pleurat]

Malsoret jane me te celet, mjafton te besh nje udhetim te Nikaj-Mertur, Puke, Peshkopi, Tropoj, Malsi e Madhe, Laberi dhe e kupton vet, nuk kam nevoj te zgjas shume ket bisede.

[CrystalMaiden]

Looks like that inbred kid from Kingdoms of Thrones!

[el22]

Straw-man.

It's not straw man, it's an analogy, a useful argumentation tool. A straw man is your way of addressing my argument:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[3][4] This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues.


Words need strict and commonly understood definitions.

The word 'ethnicity' was originally meant to refer to things that can't be arbitrarily chosen, such as ancestry. It has been hijacked to mean something else for the purpose of building modern nations.
I can speak Albanian, believe to be Albanian, dress and follow Albanian traditions in the morning; speak Italian, believe to be Italian and follow Italian traditions in midday; speak English, believe to be English and follow English traditions in the afternoon.
Does this mean that I'm an ethnic Albanian in the morning, ethnic Italian in midday and ethnic English in the afternoon?
Do you see how your definition of ethnicity doesn't map with the meaning that people intuitively associate with it?


Which is why I asked you earlier to explain to me what it is that makes Ghegs and Tosks different people. What you seem to imply is that they have different ancestry. Ancestry is important, but ethnicity is based on many things. If it were only about ancestry

Imagine for a moment Kosovars speaking a Slavic language. Well, they already did... imagine only if they believed to be the same ethnicity of some Slavs of ex-Yugoslavia (just like happened with Albanians of Greece) and then ask yourself:
* Are they *ethnic* Albanians, and why?
* Are they the same people as Ghegs of Albania, and why?
* Are they the same people as Tosks, and why?


Gheg and Tosk are dialectical divisions of Albanian, not different languages.

Didn't say different languages, I said different *flavors* of the languages (an artistic way of implying dialects).


The people in the respective Gheg and Tosk areas happen to have cultures that are specific to their region, but that's normal anywhere, all regions tend to have their peculiarities, it's not because they're different people. There are even sub-divisions among Tosks. Does that, too, mean that there is no Tosk ethnicity?

The differences between Ghegs and Tosks are of another order of magnitude than those between Ghegs or Tosks themselves. Even while speaking Greek and believing to be Greek, all observers have noticed the similarity between southern Albanians and Grekified Epiriotes (from the appearance, to the songs, dances, dressings, behavior; even without the help of genetics). Imagine Ghegs as speaking another language and believing to be another ethnicity, and ask yourself what makes them the same people with Tosks?


According to a genetic study, Albanians are the genetically most homogeneous population in Europe. Not only that, we grew out of a small founder population. In other words, we have the same roots.

Other than that, you're exaggerating. Many of the cultural aspects, clothing, etc., commonly associated with Tosks exist among Ghegs, too. Polyphonic singing, the fustanella (which existed as far as Montenegro, and probably originated in Northern Albania), and so on.

Amazing! How did you figured that out? Even Lord Byron dressed the fustanella, that doesn't make him Tosk.


On the other hand, Tosks had some traits typically associated with Ghegs, like clans, but there it was called 'fara' instead of 'fis', a tradition which the Vlora area probably maintained the longest.

No, there have been no klans or blood feuds in the south.


For appearance, the truth is somewhere in between. I do see some differences, but they're not great. Variation is normal in every population. Yet how does this argument hold? It's not like Ghegs look Korean and Tosks look Indian. And perhaps we should divide everyone into tiny ethnicities of look-alikes, then, since not all Ghegs or Tosks look the same?

I'm not in the mood to post pictures right now, but the difference in appearance between Ghegs and Tosks is not any smaller than the difference between French and Tosks, and we're not even neighbors.


Ok. This isn't relevant for Ghegs and Tosks, though. Your argument is still a straw-man, anyway. And it's funny how you choose different definitions when it's convenient. Apparently, the language you and your ancestors were immersed in since birth is something you can choose, while ancestry isn't, as if there is no connection between the two. That's inconsistent of you.

We already know that language and belief to be something can change; the case with Grekification of Albanians in Greece is well documented. However, traditions (and even less appearance and genetics) can't change that easily. If, despite the efforts to make them Greek, they still have preserved everything in common with Tosks except for language and belief to be something else, then ask yourself what happened with Ghegs and Tosks that they don't share almost nothing?


That's Italy, which is an amalgation of scores of Italic city states. Italy can't be compared to the new world. While it certainly isn't homogeneous, it's not a mixture of unrelated people from the whole world. But even if Italian is a nationality, not an ethnicity, it wouldn't imply that the same is true for Albanian.

After a couple of millenniums you could very well say that Americans are composed of an amalgamation of several 'Americanic' tribes, which, while not being homogeneous, it's not a mixture of unrelated people from the whole world. Ofc. the case of USA is a bit exaggerated, because there are people of all races there, in ancient times you couldn't travel around the world in a few hours, however back in times, when the idea of 'Italy' wasn't born yet, the "Italic" people that compose it were totally unrelated.

[Pleurat]

Looks like that inbred kid from Kingdoms of Thrones!

Yes, gypsy bosniak.

[Pleurat]

...

[Pleurat]

It's not straw man, it's an analogy, a useful argumentation tool. A straw man is your way of addressing my argument:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man




The word 'ethnicity' was originally meant to refer to things that can't be arbitrarily chosen, such as ancestry. It has been hijacked to mean something else for the purpose of building modern nations.
I can speak Albanian, believe to be Albanian, dress and follow Albanian traditions in the morning; speak Italian, believe to be Italian and follow Italian traditions in midday; speak English, believe to be English and follow English traditions in the afternoon.
Does this mean that I'm an ethnic Albanian in the morning, ethnic Italian in midday and ethnic English in the afternoon?
Do you see how your definition of ethnicity doesn't map with the meaning that people intuitively associate with it?



Imagine for a moment Kosovars speaking a Slavic language. Well, they already did... imagine only if they believed to be the same ethnicity of some Slavs of ex-Yugoslavia (just like happened with Albanians of Greece) and then ask yourself:
* Are they *ethnic* Albanians, and why?
* Are they the same people as Ghegs of Albania, and why?
* Are they the same people as Tosks, and why?



Didn't say different languages, I said different *flavors* of the languages (an artistic way of implying dialects).



The differences between Ghegs and Tosks are of another order of magnitude than those between Ghegs or Tosks themselves. Even while speaking Greek and believing to be Greek, all observers have noticed the similarity between southern Albanians and Grekified Epiriotes (from the appearance, to the songs, dances, dressings, behavior; even without the help of genetics). Imagine Ghegs as speaking another language and believing to be another ethnicity, and ask yourself what makes them the same people with Tosks?



Amazing! How did you figured that out? Even Lord Byron dressed the fustanella, that doesn't make him Tosk.



No, there have been no klans or blood feuds in the south.



I'm not in the mood to post pictures right now, but the difference in appearance between Ghegs and Tosks is not any smaller than the difference between French and Tosks, and we're not even neighbors.



We already know that language and belief to be something can change; the case with Grekification of Albanians in Greece is well documented. However, traditions (and even less appearance and genetics) can't change that easily. If, despite the efforts to make them Greek, they still have preserved everything in common with Tosks except for language and belief to be something else, then ask yourself what happened with Ghegs and Tosks that they don't share almost nothing?



After a couple of millenniums you could very well say that Americans are composed of an amalgamation of several 'Americanic' tribes, which, while not being homogeneous, it's not a mixture of unrelated people from the whole world. Ofc. the case of USA is a bit exaggerated, because there are people of all races there, in ancient times you couldn't travel around the world in a few hours, however back in times, when the idea of 'Italy' wasn't born yet, the "Italic" people that compose it were totally unrelated.



With all those statements and words you have aritten here el22, what do you imply??? An independent South albania and Northern Albania united with Kosova?

[el22]

With all those statements and words you have aritten here el22, what do you imply??? An independent South albania and Northern Albania united with Kosova?

If you say that the sun is a star, what are you implying, that the sun should become smaller and show itself only during the night, as any other star does?
Trying to figure out the truth doesn't require from you to have any particular intentions for the future, but consciously defending falsities does.

[Pleurat]

If you say that the sun is a star, what are you implying, that the sun should become smaller and show itself only during the night, as any other star does?
Trying to figure out the truth doesn't require from you to have any particular intentions for the future, but consciously defending falsities does.



What you are saying just creates problems for Albania and a new propaganda for the enemies of the albanian nation... please respond to my question....

[chao]

now i understand why the others people say that albanian are uggly

[el22]

What you are saying just creates problems for Albania and a new propaganda for the enemies of the albanian nation... please respond to my question....

What is true, eventually will come out, whether from us or from others. The story about Albanians originating in the mountains, from the "original Gheg highlanders", while Tosks being an "un-pure mix" with Greek colonists is a false one, and we can't uncover the truth while consciously covering the truth.

[Drawing-slim]

Gjithsesi jam dakord qe malsoret jane me gjate dhe me muskuloz sesa mesatarja Shqiptare por nuk jam dakord persa i perket pigmentacionit, nuk jane me te çelet sipas mendimit tim.nevermind, posted a video for classification but in some other thread next time.

But yes, in malsia north west specifically there are dark and tall, some areas as I said in my initial post, very light. Some specific villages to be exact.

[Vogon Poet]

It's not straw man, it's an analogy, a useful argumentation tool. A straw man is your way of addressing my argument:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A poor one, in that case. Exactly how is raising a kid of Japanese kid to believe he's Albanian analagous to Ghegs and Tosks believing they're a nation and ethnicity? It isn't in any sort of way. You make a claim and instead of arguing for it you use irrelevant examples of the socialization of a Japanese kids, etc. Further, your argument bases itself on the definition of ethnicity, which I put forth, and you disagree with. You argue against the language part, but language, while admittedly very important, isn't my argument per se - and you know it very well. I'd call it a straw-man.



The word 'ethnicity' was originally meant to refer to things that can't be arbitrarily chosen, such as ancestry. It has been hijacked to mean something else for the purpose of building modern nations.

This is the etymological fallacy. But your claim is false eitherway. Ethnicity isn't defined as something you can choose arbitrarily today, which is where you got it all wrong. Is it subject to the whims of subjective perceptions of people? Yes, for sure. That's the norm for any social phenomenon. Does this mean that there is no truth to it? No, of course not. Social phenomenon are subjective experiences, and the truth of it will always depend on the subjective factor. In other words, the criticism is that it's not objective. If ethnicity were an objective measure, as you seem to think it should be, you should put your logic to its ultimate conclusion, which is that each and every family should be an ethnicity of its own.


I can speak Albanian, believe to be Albanian, dress and follow Albanian traditions in the morning; speak Italian, believe to be Italian and follow Italian traditions in midday; speak English, believe to be English and follow English traditions in the afternoon.
Does this mean that I'm an ethnic Albanian in the morning, ethnic Italian in midday and ethnic English in the afternoon?
Do you see how your definition of ethnicity doesn't map with the meaning that people intuitively associate with it?

Maybe if you have split personality. :biggrin:

Jokes aside; this is still a straw-man, I haven't claimed anything like that. You avoid to tackle the whole definition and wittingly or unwittingly misinterpret the parts you do tackle, too.

"Ethnicity or ethnic group is a socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on a perceived shared social experience or ancestry.[1] Membership of an ethnic group tends to be associated with and ideologies of shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language or dialect, and with symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc."


Imagine for a moment Kosovars speaking a Slavic language. Well, they already did... imagine only if they believed to be the same ethnicity of some Slavs of ex-Yugoslavia (just like happened with Albanians of Greece) and then ask yourself:
* Are they *ethnic* Albanians, and why?
* Are they the same people as Ghegs of Albania, and why?
* Are they the same people as Tosks, and why?

Argue the case at hand.


Didn't say different languages, I said different *flavors* of the languages (an artistic way of implying dialects).

Yet you claim they are different people. Why would different people speak the same language?


The differences between Ghegs and Tosks are of another order of magnitude than those between Ghegs or Tosks themselves. Even while speaking Greek and believing to be Greek, all observers have noticed the similarity between southern Albanians and Grekified Epiriotes (from the appearance, to the songs, dances, dressings, behavior; even without the help of genetics). Imagine Ghegs as speaking another language and believing to be another ethnicity, and ask yourself what makes them the same people with Tosks?

You're still avoiding the argument. Such differences are similar everywhere. That Tosks are closer to Greek Epirotes, who you claim have been Hellenized, does not exclude that Tosks are of the same ethnicity as Ghegs.


Amazing! How did you figured that out? Even Lord Byron dressed the fustanella, that doesn't make him Tosk.

"Among Albanians, all four regions of Myzeqe, Toskëri, Çamëria, and Labëria have the polyphonic song as part of their culture. Among Albanians a related form of polyphonic singing is also found in northern Albania in the area of Peshkopi, the Albanian communities of Kačanik in Kosovo, the areas of Polog, Tetovo, Kičevo and Gostivar in Macedonia and the region of Malësia in northern Albania and southern Montenegro.[2]"

Yes, but I don't think it was part of Lord Byron's tradition to wear it. Indeed, it was the norm for Ghegs to wear it until the 18th century. The fustanella was first a dress worn by Albanian aristocrats; early historical documents that mention the fustanella mention it around Shkodër.


No, there have been no klans or blood feuds in the south.

Then you are ignorant of the history of your own region.



I'm not in the mood to post pictures right now, but the difference in appearance between Ghegs and Tosks is not any smaller than the difference between French and Tosks, and we're not even neighbors.

I care little for opinions - everyone has one. If you can objectively prove this, do it.


We already know that language and belief to be something can change; the case with Grekification of Albanians in Greece is well documented. However, traditions (and even less appearance and genetics) can't change that easily. If, despite the efforts to make them Greek, they still have preserved everything in common with Tosks except for language and belief to be something else, then ask yourself what happened with Ghegs and Tosks that they don't share almost nothing?

The premise is false, Ghegs and Tosks share a lot of things, which is commonly agreed, you simply don't want to admit it.

As for Greek Epirotes; many of them were Hellenized, which means that they are Greek now but weren't Greek earlier. It's not the same with Ghegs and Tosks. Assimilation, etc., happens through coercion. The relation Ghegs have with Tosks isn't ''synthetic'', coercive or anything like that - it's a completely natural relation.

[el22]

A poor one, in that case. Exactly how is raising a kid of Japanese kid to believe he's Albanian analagous to Ghegs and Tosks believing they're a nation and ethnicity? It isn't in any sort of way. You make a claim and instead of arguing for it you use irrelevant examples of the socialization of a Japanese kids, etc. Further, your argument bases itself on the definition of ethnicity, which I put forth, and you disagree with. You argue against the language part, but language, while admittedly very important, isn't my argument per se - and you know it very well. I'd call it a straw-man.



This is the etymological fallacy. But your claim is false eitherway. Ethnicity isn't defined as something you can choose arbitrarily today, which is where you got it all wrong. Is it subject to the whims of subjective perceptions of people? Yes, for sure. That's the norm for any social phenomenon. Does this mean that there is no truth to it? No, of course not. Social phenomenon are subjective experiences, and the truth of it will always depend on the subjective factor. In other words, the criticism is that it's not objective. If ethnicity were an objective measure, as you seem to think it should be, you should put your logic to its ultimate conclusion, which is that each and every family should be an ethnicity of its own.

My analogy was to show that what you claimed define the ethnicity:



el22,

It's funny that you contradict yourself immadietely after making a very strong claim, language and identification just happens to be what establishes ethnicity. In other words, you claim that they are two separate people, but that they belong to the same ethnicity! Absolutely hilarious!


...can be true even for an adopted newborn Japanese, but our intuition tells us that he/she wouldn't be an ethnic Albanian.


Maybe if you have split personality. :biggrin:

Jokes aside; this is still a straw-man, I haven't claimed anything like that. You avoid to tackle the whole definition and wittingly or unwittingly misinterpret the parts you do tackle, too.

"Ethnicity or ethnic group is a socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on a perceived shared social experience or ancestry.[1] Membership of an ethnic group tends to be associated with and ideologies of shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language or dialect, and with symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc."

Argue the case at hand.

It is the case in hand. Try to answer the following questions and you'll see that whatever Ghegs and Tosks have in common is insufficient to make them the same people.



Imagine for a moment Kosovars speaking a Slavic language. Well, they already did... imagine only if they believed to be the same ethnicity of some Slavs of ex-Yugoslavia (just like happened with Albanians of Greece) and then ask yourself:
* Are they *ethnic* Albanians, and why?
* Are they the same people as Ghegs of Albania, and why?
* Are they the same people as Tosks, and why?



Yet you claim they are different people. Why would different people speak the same language?

Why do all Americans speak the same language? Why do Italians speak the same language? Why do Greeks speak the same language?


You're still avoiding the argument. Such differences are similar everywhere. That Tosks are closer to Greek Epirotes, who you claim have been Hellenized, does not exclude that Tosks are of the same ethnicity as Ghegs.

I've never let any point of yours without addressing, hiding behind "straw man" or refusing analogies which are useful to emphasize a phenomena so that the point becomes clear.


"Among Albanians, all four regions of Myzeqe, Toskëri, Çamëria, and Labëria have the polyphonic song as part of their culture. Among Albanians a related form of polyphonic singing is also found in northern Albania in the area of Peshkopi, the Albanian communities of Kačanik in Kosovo, the areas of Polog, Tetovo, Kičevo and Gostivar in Macedonia and the region of Malësia in northern Albania and southern Montenegro.[2]"

Yes, but I don't think it was part of Lord Byron's tradition to wear it. Indeed, it was the norm for Ghegs to wear it until the 18th century. The fustanella was first a dress worn by Albanian aristocrats; early historical documents that mention the fustanella mention it around Shkodër.

I brought Byron as an example that a few pictures here and there don't prove that it was a Gheg traditional dress. Ghegs didn't wear kilt even at the times of Skanderbeg. And can you post some clips with traditional polyphonic Gheg songs?

First this:


Then you are ignorant of the history of your own region.

and then this:


I care little for opinions - everyone has one. If you can objectively prove this, do it.

The difference however is that by the pictures posted here, I assumed that you would be aware that Ghegs differ from Tosks in appearance not less than French and Tosks do. I'll post some pictures later on, and you try to prove that Tosks had klans and blood feuds.


The premise is false, Ghegs and Tosks share a lot of things, which is commonly agreed, you simply don't want to admit it.

As for Greek Epirotes; many of them were Hellenized, which means that they are Greek now but weren't Greek earlier. It's not the same with Ghegs and Tosks. Assimilation, etc., happens through coercion. The relation Ghegs have with Tosks isn't ''synthetic'', coercive or anything like that - it's a completely natural relation.

My point was simple: even after assimilation through coercion, Tosks and Grekified Epiriotes still have the same way of singing, instruments, dressings. While Ghegs, even without being coerced to become something else, have quite different traditions.

[tEhSaint]

Alpinoid with Norid influences.

[Cleitus]

Alpinid + Med

[Mark]

Alpinized Norid/Noric + CM.

[Moonbird]

Sub Nordid with a Norid influence.

[Neanderthal]

Norid/Alpine.

[Geist]

West Baltid

[Kalimtari]

similar face:

http://diplomatonline.com/mag/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Diplomat_Sep10024.jpg
http://diplomatonline.com/mag/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Diplomat_Sep10032.jpg

[Midori]

Alpinised W.Baltid+Norid

[ALSh]

Nordid/borreby

[Cleitus]

Gorid + North Pontid/Nordoid

[cally]

Norid/Borreby + Baltid

[Vanaheimr]

Norid/Alpine

[Alially]

He is a Highlander Albanian
Just, he is quite short
But blue eyes, white skin and blond hair is usual for kosovo

[The Blade]

Baltid + minor Dinarid/Norid influence.

[Jocorpi]

He looks very slavic. I think norid alpine.

[Odin]

Noric + Baltid.

[CommonSense]

Seems to be a depigmented Dinarid. Very Albanian face, only his pigmentation is off:

http://s3.static-footeo.com/1200/uploads/entente-ssg/players/ardian-krasniqi__ntsmxa.jpg

[chociprasa]

Baltid + Dinarid.

[contributor]

dinaro-alpine and nordid