Roman cosmopolitanism.

[Styrian Mujo]

Is it possible that haplogroups such as J, E and T are from the greco-roman age as a result of internal migration with-in the roman borders or from slave trade and not neolithic? I'm southren european and im not afraid to admit some of my ancestors might have been mid-eastern immigrants. I think we should not dismiss this as a possible theory just because some people might not like it.

[Fire Haired]

Is it possible that haplogroups such as J, E and T are from the greco-roman age as a result of internal migration with-in the roman borders or from slave trade and not neolithic? I'm southren european and im not afraid to admit some of my ancestors might have been mid-eastern immigrants. I think we should not dismiss this as a possible theory just because some people might not like it.

Y DNa J is PAleoithic mid eastern over 30,000 years old brother of Paleolithic European Y DNa I. Y DNa E is extremley old probably orignated in sub shara afria maybe over 40,000 years ago. Through inter marriage with Caucasins in north Africa hg E forming into E1b1b became dominte in Caucasin north Africans. There is also a branch that is popular in Europe and mid east E1b1b M78 the main European branch is E1b1b V13.

u should look at eupedia E1b1b (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2FHaplog roup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml&ei=H8EsUrW-E4XrrQHM1oGACA&usg=AFQjCNFVs96fHk2NG4b9uCw8HbyP-ia3Kg&sig2=Sa7oJyYH__NTGosmUbII3Q&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWM), J1 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2FHaplog roup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml&ei=MsEsUpTOGMW5qgHH1oHgAg&usg=AFQjCNE9KPvrfkNBI5vPHluBGRIvTw5MRg&sig2=RpxXmNM4yUJuDNqDBja8Yg&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWM), and J2 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2FHaplog roup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml&ei=QMEsUsiRGpC3qQGijYDADg&usg=AFQjCNFjUi3te4wMTxF2c2OLDyoqk-Owsg&sig2=GMZjJIt34lPnj6kwI9p0hg&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWM) pages they explain alot. There is no doubt that alot of E1b1b, J1, and J2 in Italy, Greece, and south east europe are form greco Roman age i have argued that alot. More evidence is the higher amount of west asian and southwest asian in globe13 aust dna test in Italians and Greeks compared to other Europeans and Neolithic and Mesolithic European samples. southwest asian and west Asian in Europe are centered in southern Italy and Greece obviously showing a connection with the Mediterranean sea. Overall Greeks and southern Italians average 15-18% southwest asian and 20-24% the more north u go in Italy the more those decrease. BUt there is a big differnce between North Italy and Switzerland obvisouly shoing the west Asian and southwest asian is higher in ethnic Italians meaing it came to Italians not just a random area before Italic languages and tribes formed 3,200-2,800ybp(click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe)).

There was a huge mid eastern genetic input from around Syria and Iraq into Italy and southeast europe during the Greco Roman age. Sardine people who have been shown to be closest relative sto the farmers that spread acroos europe 9,000-6,000ybp and genetically isolated since the Neolithic age (click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90760-Sardine-Neloithic-Euro-s-Finnish-and-Sami-Mesolithic-Paleolithic-Euro-s)). They live on a island right next to Italy not Sicily don't get confused. THey have only 8.7% southwest asian and 4% west asian much much less than Italians. Showing these mid eastern blood came to Italy after the Neolithic and since the percentages of southwest Asian and west Asian in Italy and southeast Europe are the same they came from the same event or age if u get what i mean a event that did not happen in the rest of Europe aka the Greco Roman age.

[Styrian Mujo]

Ok it makes sence if it is true that sardinians have so litlle west asian admixture. What about dinaric slavs? We have alot of I2a like the sardinians so how much west asian admixture do we have?

[Fire Haired]

Ok it makes sence if it is true that sardinians have so litlle west asian admixture. What about dinaric slavs? We have alot of I2a like the sardinians so how much west asian admixture do we have?

globe13 test click here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2) for were i get these results from.

Serb's west asian=15%, southwestasian=9.2%

Only Dinaric slavic group i could find on the list kind of surprising. Dinaric slavs have more west asian and southwest asian than most europeans but less than Greeks and Italians.. They get that extra west asian and southwest asian from the same source as Greeks and Italians probably from greco Roman times.

Overall Serbian results were
North Euro(Paleoithic-Mesloithic European)=44.4%
Med(spread in Neolithic)=31.2%
west asian(mainly from Greco Roman some from Neolithic)=15.2%
southwest asian(mainly Greco Roman some from Neolithic)=9.2%
east african=0.1% probably doesn't mean anything

What doesnt make sense to me is the only aust group to orignate in Europe in north Euro. Other tests will call a group distrubted almost the exact same way North Euro, Atlantic Baltic, and north east euro. All other groups came after the Mesolithic age. Aust dna samples of Mesolithic European hunter gathers show they were dominted by North Euro with some med from inter marriage with farmers. In a way North Euro might really mean European. Europeans before the Neolithic age when they were all stone age hunter gathers. I guess were genetically isolated like Native Americans who all are 100% the same aust group. It makes sense because of the similarty between mtDNa of Megalithic and Paleolithic samples all over Europe and that hg I is the only for sure Pre Neloithic Y DNa haplogroup in Europe.

BUt what doesnt make sense is the aust dna samples of Neolithic European farmers are dominated with med with some traces of west asian and southwest asian a little above modern European average but in the range of Sardine people. Actulley Sardine results are almost identical to Neolithic European sample in Alps Italy and south Sweden. What doesn't make sense is the main Y DNahaplogroup of Neloithic west europeans out of 31 samples 24 had G2a. So orignally form the mid east they also seem to have spread E1b1b V13 one 7,000 year old sample in north spain had it. E1b1b V13 father E1b1b M78 i guess orignated in northeast africa but most popular in the mid east so these farmers orignally were from the mid east.

But no one has that much med europeans actulley have more than mid easterns or anyone on average. So what were the farmers from special ethnic group that somehow was isolted and had alot of med it doesnt make sense. This also means most Europeans only about half European. On geno 2.0 who am i their version of aust dna test my dad only got 35% north euro and 40% med. There is alot of red hair in our family so pale white skin how we less than half european and more from brown skinned mid eastern that makes no sense at all. How do u explain that Finnish who have 78% north Euro so total Europeans look basicalley the same as French who have 45%. Obviously the palness of Europeans is from their Mesolithic - Paleoithic ancestors so from that North Euro aust group but why are our results only about half.

[Fire Haired]

Ok it makes sence if it is true that sardinians have so litlle west asian admixture. What about dinaric slavs? We have alot of I2a like the sardinians so how much west asian admixture do we have?

Sardine I2a is I2a1a M26 Dinaric is I2a1b M423. Tow lines that split 11,000-20,000ybp. So thats there only connection their ancestry overall is probably very different. It is really complicated to say how I2a1b M423 and I2a1a M26 spread. The most simple answer is they are remains of Mesolithic-Paleoithic hunter gather paternal lineages of western and eastern Europe. BUt age estimates dont seem to deend that if they are they spread right before farming did so 15,000-10,000ybp. There may be very complicate explanations about how they spread. I think they are remains of Mesloithic-Paleoithic west and east European paternal lineages. And age estimates are to young which they have been shown to be for mtDNa and Y DNA.

I think that the people who painted lascux cave were I2a1a M26. the Magdalonian culture in my opinon were the first i2a1a M26 or I2a1 P37.2. Then after the last ice age 19,000ybp I2a1 P37.2 split into I2a1a M26 and I2a1b spreading out of a southern refuge into western and eastern Europe.

[Styrian Mujo]

Ok. So if i understand correctly caucasian,gedrosian and meditteranian are neolithic admixtures,north euro is paleolithic and east euro is indo-european.West asian and african are from the greco-roman period?

[Artek]

Ok. So if i understand correctly caucasian,gedrosian and meditteranian are neolithic admixtures,north euro is paleolithic and east euro is indo-european.West asian and african are from the greco-roman period?
North-Euro seems to be the closest to the Mesolithic of them all, so therefore also to the Paleolithic. Just we don't know for so much.
Please remember that mesolithic hunter-gatherers were also mixed to some extent, depending on a region.

And I would be very cautious about calling East Euro admixture as an only indo-european admix for the same reason.

[Styrian Mujo]

North-Euro seems to be the closest to the Mesolithic of them all, so therefore also to the Paleolithic. Just we don't know for so much.
Please remember that mesolithic hunter-gatherers were also mixed to some extent, depending on a region.

And I would be very cautious about calling East Euro admixture as an only indo-european admix for the same reason.

Ok. So am I correct to asume that caucasian, med and gedrosian are neolithic?

[Artek]

Ok. So am I correct to asume that caucasian, med and gedrosian are neolithic?
I would say - gedrosian and caucasian are the most neolithic of them all

[Styrian Mujo]

One last thing i dont understand is that caucasian and west asian peak in the same area on the maps if i remember correctly.

[Artek]

One last thing i dont understand is that caucasian and west asian peak in the same area on the maps if i remember correctly.

If I remember correctly, Caucasian is a mix of various other admixtures (West asian and others)

[Styrian Mujo]

Thanks for the information im still kinda new to population genetics hopefully I will figure it out.

[Styrian Mujo]

Deleted

[Fire Haired]

Ok. So if i understand correctly caucasian,gedrosian and meditteranian are neolithic admixtures,north euro is paleolithic and east euro is indo-european.West asian and african are from the greco-roman period?

North Euro is defintley Mesolithic because we have aust dna samples of Mesolithic Europeans. It is the only group that originated in Europe in globe13 test and all other tests call their unique European group the same thing. It most likley orignated in Paleolithic Europe its ancestral form probably arrived over 30,000ybp. It is probably connected to the heavy mtDNA U and U5 hunter gather samples we have in Paleolithic and Mesolithic European samples. Might also be connected with Y DNA I or a European branch of F which is F 96.

The farmers that spread acroos europe were dominated by med with small minorities of southwest asian and west asian. THen there is extra west asian and southwest asian in Italy, Greece, and the rest of southwest europe from probably greco roman age. In north east europe mainly finland and northern Scandinavia those areas never really were apart of the spread of farming. So they have very very very little med and are dominted by North Euro with no west asian and some southwest asian. Since Uralic languages, Kunda culture, and Y DNa N1c1 spread there 7,000-8,000ybp the have a extra Mongliod admixture other Europeans do not.

[Fire Haired]

Ok. So if i understand correctly caucasian,gedrosian and meditteranian are neolithic admixtures,north euro is paleolithic and east euro is indo-european.West asian and african are from the greco-roman period?

Indo Europeans were not a race. The language would have begun around Russia, Ukriane, and north mid east. Y DNA spread by Indo europeans (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91971-Y-DNA-spread-by-Indo-Europeans-(R1a1a1-M417-R1b1a2a1-L51)-(R1b1a2a-L23-R1b1a1-M73-Etc-)). 6,000 and 5,000 year old DNA from early Indo European kurgen people in southern Ukraine and far southern Russia show they had pale skin and the German scientists said no doubt a European population. (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28818-New-DNA-results-from-early-Pontic-Steppe-Kurgen-people) Which is not a surprise since they lived in Europe. The Ancinet Dna of early Indo Iranian speakers who spread out of northern Yamna culture starting 5,000ybp show they had mainly fair hair and eyes with over 1% red hair (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90089-Where-did-proto-Indo-Iranian-speakers-ancestry-orignate). Since the 6,000 and 5,000 year old southern Yamna people were very dark eyes and shown to be unrelated to Indo Iranians. It shows that there was no Indo European race. They were a mix just like people today diff ones in diff regions had diff ancestry. The world already had along and complicated history of migrations and inter marriage. Gedorsian in west europe most likl;ey was spread with Germanic Italo Celtic languages not in the neloithic.

[Styrian Mujo]

Ok thanks for the info. But I think the original indo-europeans where hallstatt and corded nordids and as they spread around they mixed with the populations they ruled over.

[Fire Haired]

Ok thanks for the info. But I think the original indo-europeans where hallstatt and corded nordids and as they spread around they mixed with the populations they ruled over.

Do u have any evidene. Hallstatt was Celtic. They weren't the first Celts though. u should look at Germanic Italo Celts (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe). Corded ware culture was proto Balto Slavic click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89686-Yamna-culture-source-of-Indo-Iranian-and-Balto-Slavic-languages-and-their-R1a). What do u mean by Nordid. Do u mean Scandnavien so Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, and Danish. They were not a race it is very complicated they were a mix of diff people throughout history.

[Styrian Mujo]

Well i guess your right but you said yourself that they where quite fair haired.

[Fire Haired]

Well i guess your right but you said yoursellf that they where quite fair haired.

I said that the people who spread Germanic Italo Celtic languages and Y DNA R1b1a2a1 L51 and R1b1a2a1a L11 to west Europe starting 5,000ybp. But R1b1a2a1 L51 father R1b1a2a L23 is centered in the Caucus, Antolia, and Iraq. I dont know if that means anything about were it orignated. But R1b no matter how u but in Europe at somepoint migrated out of the mid east. Which could explain the connection with r1b in Europe and Gedorsian. The R1b1a2a L23 or R1b1a2 M269 or R1b1a P297 that migrated to Ukriane and Russia anywhere probably from 6,000-10,000ybp. Would have mixed i think with areally red hair group of people there. Who then later spread to west Europe i hope u get what i am saying.

U can read the origin of red hair (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91491-Origin-and-ancient-History-of-red-hair) and where did proto Indo Iranian speakers ancestry originate (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90089-Where-did-proto-Indo-Iranian-speakers-ancestry-orignate).Red hair was over 1% in proto Indo Iranian speakers who spread their language and y DNA R1a1a1b2 Z93 in asia. They also came from around Russia so i would guess maybe their red hair is connected to Germanic Italo Celtic red hair since they migrated from around the same area. Also the Udmurts in volga Russia who have 10-15% red hair. So i think that red hair was popular over 1% in alot of Russia and Ukriane before Indo European languages and probably as far back as 10,000-20,000ybp. Then when Indo European language's began they spread in that area many very red haired people became Indo Europeans.

When u say Nordid i know they are known for blonde hair. Blonde and red hair are not connected at all. U can see by how they are distributed. red hair was brought to Scandinavia with Germanic languages and R1b L11 starting about 3,500-4,000ybp. Which is why red hair is at 1% in Scandinavia only in areas with Germanic languages. or with y DNa I2a2 and R1b S21 which both migrated with proto Germanic speakers out of central Europe. So really Nordid's like maybe Finnish should have probably no red hair. So the red hair thing does not connect with the argument of them being nordid like.