The worst kept secret: US assault rifles are junk

[RoyBatty]

This article highlights what many people have known for a long time. M4's and to an extent M16's, are nice toys for the firing range but aren't much use in real live combat situations where reliability and durability are required.

During the recent war in the Caucasus Russia captured a large quantity of modern and lightweight US supplied small arms. In TV interviews interviews Russian soldiers explained how they were impressed with the light weight of the weapons but laughed about their usefulness as they illustrated how fragile these things were by firing sustained bursts which rendered them near useless.

Under the same operating conditions Kalashnikov assault rifles kept working reliably without problems.



WASHINGTON – In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.
When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.
Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?
Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.
A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.
Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.
Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.
The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091011/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_afghanistan_weapons_failures

[Sol Invictus]

AR-15's fucking suck balls. I can't believe people actually still buy this shit.

[RoyBatty]

Given even an unlimited budget to spend on the most expensive equipment I'd buy standard Izhevsk Kalashnikov rifles every time. They are tough and reliable.

Other weapons may be more accurate but under normal operating conditions this is irrelevant. Winning prizes at the shooting range is a different sport to survival under live fire conditions.

[Sol Invictus]

Given even an unlimited budget to spend on the most expensive equipment I'd buy standard Izhevsk Kalashnikov rifles every time. They are tough and reliable.

Other weapons may be more accurate but under normal operating conditions this is irrelevant. Winning prizes at the shooting range is a different sport to survival under live fire conditions.

Any AK47 or it's knock offs in the former Soviet Bloc like the VZ58 is a hell of alot more reliable than any AR15, anyday. What a waste of money.

[Psychonaut]

AR-15's fucking suck balls. I can't believe people actually still buy this shit.

Yeah, I don't think anyone's even tried to pretend otherwise. These things are horrible! I rarely ever go to a range and don't have my weapon jam.

[Piparskeggr]

I do like the 5.56 mm/.223 Rem cartridge for some uses; varmint/fur bearer hunting, target shooting...

Amongst the rifles my wife and I own, the Ruger Mini-14 is decidedly more robust than the AR-15, but for accuracy I like our heavy barreled single shot New England Handi-rifle.

The Ruger is a hybrid of elements from the M-1 Garand, the M-14 (both from the Springfield Armory [the original, not the civilian]) and the M-1 Carbine, developed by Winchester.

Ruger also makes a variant in 7.62 x 39, another nice shooter.

The M-16, I remember when it was nick-named the "Mighty Mattel" for its use of plastic parts, which broke fairly easily. It was also called the "Poodle Shooter," for the perception of the 5.56 being an under-powered cartridge.

I have an article in my files from a 1960 issue of American Rifleman magazine about modifying the M-1 Carbine to accept the 7.62 Kurz (7.62 x 33) cartridge, which was developed at that time by shortening the .30-06 (7.62 x 64) or .308 Winches6ter (7.62 x 51) casing.

IIRC, this shortened .30 caliber load gave performance similar to the old .30-30 Winchester.

[Rudy]

This is one reason why they still use Mossberg shotguns in the military, or at least did recently. (bottom of page)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossberg_500

I haven't heard too much on the case telescoped belt guns recently.
http://www.defensereview.com/aai-lightweight-small-arms-technologies-lsat-prototype-on-display-at-ausa/

The Finn AK in 6.5 Grendel is interesting, but the US will not use them for political reasons. The US has considered carbines similar to the HK416 to increase reliability in the recent past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_HK416

Last I heard, US military personnel are not allowed to use blended metal bullets either.(Bubba bullets)

The distinguished reporter Jeremy Scahill claims in his new book, Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army, that mercenary troops in Iraq are even using "experimental ammunition" that US forces are forbidden from firing. These bullets, made of "blended metal", are designed to shatter on impact, creating "untreatable wounds". One mercenary recently bragged about the ammo's impact when he shot an Iraqi with it: "It entered his butt and completely destroyed everything in the lower-left section of his stomach... everything was torn apart."
http://www.uruknet.de/?s1=1&p=33414&s2=05

There may be laser guns in the next twenty years.

[Sol Invictus]

I do like the 5.56 mm/.223 Rem cartridge for some uses; varmint/fur bearer hunting, target shooting...


5.56 & .223 like most all military rounds are designed to wound and disable.
If I wanted to kill someone then I would drop them at close range with a .40 or a 30-06, or my person fav the .308 from a distance.
Those things are built for death, imo.

[Eldritch]

Given even an unlimited budget to spend on the most expensive equipment I'd buy standard Izhevsk Kalashnikov rifles every time. They are tough and reliable.

Other weapons may be more accurate but under normal operating conditions this is irrelevant. Winning prizes at the shooting range is a different sport to survival under live fire conditions.

Who was that US army officer who served in Vietnam and later became a writer, and passed away a few years ago?

He dug out an AK-47 that had been buried in a bog for three weeks, shook the mud and water out of it, and managed to fire several rounds.

[Octothorpe]

Who was that US army officer who served in Vietnam and later became a writer, and passed away a few years ago?

He dug out an AK-47 that had been buried in a bog for three weeks, shook the mud and water out of it, and managed to fire several rounds.

Wasn't that Joe Haldeman?

[Eldritch]

Wasn't that Joe Haldeman?

Dammit, why can't I remember the guy's name? I'm not sure it was that one tho.

I recall him being heavily critical of the current war in Iraq, just before he unexpectedly died (he was in good health and not old by any means).

[RoyBatty]

Who was that US army officer who served in Vietnam and later became a writer, and passed away a few years ago?

He dug out an AK-47 that had been buried in a bog for three weeks, shook the mud and water out of it, and managed to fire several rounds.

Sorry I don't know Eldritch. What you're describing sounds very similar to what happened during the Angolan and SWA Border Wars. The older military guys (by the time I was conscripted the war was over) told me similar AK-47 stories.

[Piparskeggr]

David Haskell Hackworth (November 11, 1930 – May 4, 2005) known also as "Hack", was a highly decorated United States Army colonel and prominent military writer.commentator.

(Unless y'all meant Barry Sadler; Green Beret, Songwriter, military correspondent and creator of the novels about Casca Longinus, the Eternal Mercenary.)

[Sol Invictus]

Yup. And it's funny how programs like SPIKE TV show that the AK47 is inferior to the AR-15 because it's more accurate, not factoring in that the AR-15 jams constantly and requires an aweful lot of maintenance to even keep it remotely functional. In a firefight, I would rather have a 50/50 chance of hitting my target exactly where I would want at 200 meters than having to run for cover clearing a jam after shooting 2 rounds, or harvesting another weapon from an enemy combatant with a combat knife. An AK47 you can shoot hundreds of rounds through it, put it back in your closet, and be safe in the knowledge that it will be there and be functional when you need it. An AR-15 is a crapshoot.

[Eldritch]

David Haskell Hackworth (November 11, 1930 – May 4, 2005) known also as "Hack", was a highly decorated United States Army colonel and prominent military writer.commentator.



That's it. Thanks!

[Radojica]

My rifle, AR 7,62mm M70 (Serbian version of AK47) is old as I am (27 years) and is still in very good shape, functional and precise even with short burst fire (2-5 bullets). I doubt M4 would be able to maintain in so good shape after that much time...

[The Lawspeaker]

Many years ago the Royal Dutch Army had one of those open door- days and I attended as a 15 year-old. We got to fire with those training M-16 Diemaco's (you fire without bullets on a electronical screen). I fired a couple of rounds and the bloody bastard jammed !

I asked the drill sergeant who was standing next to me whether this happens more often and he nodded and then I asked him whether our boys overseas were equipped with similar junk. He replied that that was indeed the case and I sneered "no wonder we lost at Srebrenica !"

I think that our army should look for a decent replacement like an update of the FN FAL or the SIG SG 550- and in the meanwhile get a Dutch arms industry off the ground.

[Sol Invictus]

In all honesty jams I've experienced with the m-16 are pretty easy to clear. Stovepipe jams to just flick it out and away you go. It's annoying as hell but I don't think it's a complete write off. M-16s are still accurate as hell and sexy..

I don't know I have mixed feelings.. I can never make up my mind.

[Piparskeggr]

I do like the design, the way the recoil comes straight back into the shoulder. The AR-10 (Big Brother, chambered in 7.62 NATO) is a real, nice shooter. :D

Many of the early, functional problems, were caused by a lack of chrome lining in the chamber and barrel. Also, the Army tried loading the first ammo with ball powder designed for best use in the 30-06 and 7.62 NATO cartridges.

The AR-15 (which became the M-16 when Robert S. McNamara and his "Whiz Kids" got ahold of it) was originally intended as a survival rifle for USAF fight crews, not as a main battle rifle.

((I worked as volunteer at the Springfield Armory Museum (Springfield, MA, USA) when I was in High School and College...most awesome memory...being allowed to hold, and clean, Garand #1.))

[HawkR]

Well, I've allways loved the M16 and stuff, but that was untill a year ago, when I discovered the SCAR - H :D That's a BAD ASS rifle!:D

[Smaland]

While the US arms industry was working on a new rifle, the Army could go back to the M-14 as an interim replacement for the M-4. The M-14 is sturdy (much better than the M-16/M-4) and accurate.

[Sol Invictus]

While the US arms industry was working on a new rifle, the Army could go back to the M-14 as an interim replacement for the M-4. The M-14 is sturdy (much better than the M-16/M-4) and accurate.

I absolutely LOVE the M-14. It's a damn bitch to lug around in the field, though.

[Piparskeggr]

Back in 1984 my most excellent and beloved wife, Anita, made me a present of a National Match grade "Springfield Armory" M-1A...a semi-auto only, civilian M-14.

This rifle is my pride and joy for accurate shooting in military matches.

If I was in a set "nest," this is my choice for picking off opponents at long distance.

Practical field use, I like the Rugger Mini-14 or Mini-30.

Close work, I like my tricked out, Mossberg 500, with the extended magazine.

Then again, I have a handload for my 45-70, which retains 50 foot pounds more at 1000 yards than the 45 ACP has at the muzzle. ;)

[Sol Invictus]

If I was in a set "nest," this is my choice for picking off opponents at long distance.

Awesome choice. The M1 is handsdown my favorite battle rifle, and imo, can easily double for an open-sighted 'sniper rifle', if such a thing existed. The 30 aught packs a mean punch and you can really reach out and touch someone with it.


Practical field use, I like the Rugger Mini-14 or Mini-30.

:thumb001::thumb001:

Rancher for the win!

I've fallen in love with the DPMS LR-308. It's such a mean bitch, and it has a great AR platform.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2ihl4d0.jpg

Another "reach out and touch em" that can easily double as a full out assault rifle.