Are Ashkenazi Jews Khazars?

[Anglojew]

Nationalist parties? The only nationalistic party is the JOBBIK, but even their nationalism weak. The Hungarian "right" is not nationalist, but right radical (JOBBIK) or leftist populist (FIDESZ). And the FIDESZ pursues an absolute Jewish friendly politics, to see them several times in a synagogue than in a church or on a football game. And the right parties do not reject the Jews, since these parties have very few Jewish members. This deficiency is uncomfortable for the parties. And for example the few Jewish members of the FIDESZ joined in the liberal times yet (originally they were liberal populists and now "right" populists). After all the right and the Jews are two separate concepts.

These Jews in Hungary made a choice already, they are internationalist and they were their parents and their grandparents too. This is a strange phenomenon and hard to understand how takes shape a determined clique (ghetto mentality?) on ethnoreligious and political base like the Jews in Hungary.

I'm not familiar with the political scene in Hungary but I'm surprised more Jews aren't prominent on the right like they increasingly becoming in the Anglosphere.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I'm not familiar with the political scene in Hungary but I'm surprised more Jews aren't prominent on the right like they increasingly becoming in the Anglosphere.

Civil rights is only thing that keeps jews and irish towards the left IMO. Now finally republicans post reagan have dropped a lot of the nonsense so things are changing a bit. Sadly over here neither of the parties are really very much different, though, voting is almost meaningless.

[Szegedist]

I'm not familiar with the political scene in Hungary but I'm surprised more Jews aren't prominent on the right like they increasingly becoming in the Anglosphere.

No, many liberals were (and are) Jews. The (now defunct) SzDSz liberal extremist party was full of them. I rather that they were conservatives, but sadly the list of right wing Jews is a lot, lot shorter.

The anti-semitism that exists in Hungary is not racial, but rather social, political. Those who dislike Jews dislike them because of association with communism, liberal extremism, etc.

In my opinion, the mentality Blogen is referring to developed as some sort of "defence mechanism". They became terrified of nationalism, so they support anti-nation movements -> betray nation -> get hated for it -> support anti-nation movements out of fear ->...
its an endless cycle, and it more or less began after Trianon.

You must bear in mind, that in 1919, many of the Communists were Jews, and after WW2 until 1956, many of the Communists, heads of secret services, torturers, etc were Jews, so this formed a negative image.

And this isn't propaganda, I can give you names if you want.

[Philo]

According to greek nationalist loonies, anyway. I don't want to go into a big thing about it as it's really not worth it, but it's mainly because of a few people trying to push some agenda. Reality is there's a TYPE of j2 that seems to be associated with cretans but the vast majority is obviously not.

In the balkans/greece and Turkey, and a lot of the middle east I don't trust them not to fake results either for that matter. Too much shady stuff goes on with their studies and with past archaeology, they just have no credibility.

What the hell are you talking about? I suggest you research more about J2, it's origins and distribution.

[Philo]

Amerindian -
Arabian 8.22%
Armenian 4.50%
Basque 0.11%
Central_African -
Central_Euro 2.34%
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 2.61%
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 0.62%
East_Med 14.88%
Eastern_Euro 5.55%
Fennoscandian -
French 2.96%
Iberian 13.92%
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 14.98%
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 8.46%
North_African 1.55%
North_Atlantic 4.64%
North_Caucasian 0.60%
North_Sea 2.29%
Northeast_African 0.33%
Oceanian 0.10%
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 1.17%
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.93%
West_African -
West_Caucasian 5.03%
West_Med 4.22%

This one has a fair bit of variance.
Mine is different too:
19.86% East_Med
14.32% Italian
13.38% Near_Eastern
13.11% Iberian
5.60% West_Caucasian
5.53% French
5.44% Arabian
4.72% Armenian
3.13% North_Caucasian
3.00% North_African
2.27% Central_Euro
2.09% East_Central_Euro
2.06% East_Balkan
1.81% West_Med
1.81% North_Atlantic
0.83% Basque
0.62% Malayan
0.34% Oceanian
0.05% North_Sea
0.02% Fennoscandian
0.01% Eastern_Euro
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Central_African
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% East_Central_Asian
0.00% Indo-Chinese
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
0.00%
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
0.00% Volga-Ural
0.00% West_African

[Anglojew]

No, many liberals were (and are) Jews. The (now defunct) SzDSz liberal extremist party was full of them. I rather that they were conservatives, but sadly the list of right wing Jews is a lot, lot shorter.

The anti-semitism that exists in Hungary is not racial, but rather social, political. Those who dislike Jews dislike them because of association with communism, liberal extremism, etc.

In my opinion, the mentality Blogen is referring to developed as some sort of "defence mechanism". They became terrified of nationalism, so they support anti-nation movements -> betray nation -> get hated for it -> support anti-nation movements out of fear ->...
its an endless cycle, and it more or less began after Trianon.

You must bear in mind, that in 1919, many of the Communists were Jews, and after WW2 until 1956, many of the Communists, heads of secret services, torturers, etc were Jews, so this formed a negative image.

And this isn't propaganda, I can give you names if you want.

I would say this isn't surprising considering the alternative was fascism.

[blogen]

I would say this isn't surprising considering the alternative was fascism.

There was never fascism in Hungary. There was Hungarism (national socialism) in opposition in the early 40' and in government as a german puppet in 1944-45.

[Anglojew]

There was never fascism in Hungary. There was Hungarism (national socialism) in opposition in the early 40' and in government as a german puppet in 1944-45.

Umm ok.

[blogen]

Umm ok.

The Hungarian right wing was right radical (jobboldai radikális) always, got organized based on local ideas, they were not attached to the western intellectual movements, like the fascism or nazism. For example the Hungarism was a specific Hungarian national socialism without German ideological contacts (the Hungarian "national socialism", the idea of the "national socialism" in Hungary preceded the German by decades in the early 20th century!).

[Anglojew]

The Hungarian right wing was right radical (jobboldai radikális) always, got organized based on local ideas, they were not attached to the western intellectual movements, like the fascism or nazism. For example the Hungarism was a specific Hungarian national socialism without German ideological contacts (the Hungarian "national socialism", the idea of the "national socialism" in Hungary preceded the German by decades in the early 20th century!).

"The party's ideology was similar to that of Nazism[citation needed], although a more accurate comparison might be drawn between Austrofascism and Hungarian fascism which was called Hungarism by Ferenc Szálasi – extreme nationalism, the promotion of agriculture, anti-capitalism, anticommunism and militant antisemitism. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_Cross_Party

You're just arguing semantics. The point is Jews, as far as I know, weren't welcome in those "national socialist" party(s).

I'm not sure how you can attack Jews for not liking a party that is explicitly anti-Jewish?

[blogen]

"The party's ideology was similar to that of Nazism[citation needed], although a more accurate comparison might be drawn between Austrofascism and Hungarian fascism which was called Hungarism by Ferenc Szálasi – extreme nationalism, the promotion of agriculture, anti-capitalism, anticommunism and militant antisemitism. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_Cross_Party

This is reason of why do not quote from the wikipedia! For example they were not anticommunist, the party was Marxist significantly, on their assemblies they quoted Marx often, the contemporaries called them green Bolsheviks. And Austrofascism... wow. :(

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3075/fwmd.jpg


You're just arguing semantics. The point is Jews, as far as I know, weren't welcome in those "national socialist" party(s).

There were moderated conservative governments before 1935 in Hungary. The right wing was pursued firmly until the 40' and their existence was tolerated symbolically only. The Hungarian interwar regime was bourgeois parliamentarism with a strong governor. The Jewish businessmans (Chorin, Goldberger, etc.) influence was bigger than the former whites and these businessmans were the governor's supporters and his friends. A mild radicalism prevailed after 1935, but the extreme rightist's (Hungarists) pursuit intensified in parallel with this.

The contemporary extreme rightist (Hungarists) called the Horthy regime a Jewish regime and the former whites (various right wing movements) criticized the press politics (considerable part of the press was Jewish possession). The Horthy era was a favourable period for the Jewish citizenry.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5070/qk3h.jpg


I'm not sure how you can attack Jews for not liking a party that is explicitly anti-Jewish?

The problem was same with the Jews than today with the Muslims. They were not integrated into the society, they were an strange element outside the society. The Jews spoke in Hungarian, but they were not ethnic Hungarians, their assimilation never occurred. The Jews' politics was not Hungarian politics, their own viewpoint existed only. The Jew and Jew friendly governments were only the good government for them and the concept of the Hungarian home and Hungarian interest means nothing to them. And the considerable part of this unintegrated Jewish mass were radical, primarily the second and the third generation of the immigrants. These Jews fought an identity crisis, their immigrant parents (from Galicia) threw away their Yiddish culture, but they understood the European culture superficially only. Their character did not have a depth and their children inherited this identity deficiency. They were looking for an identity desperately for themselves and they turned against the stranger western culture finally. They was built upon a new identity onto their own strangeness and they wanted to destroy the civilization, what they did not understand totally.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1158/jsnn.jpg

[Windischer]

idiotic fairytales... :picard2:

[Szegedist]

I would say this isn't surprising considering the alternative was fascism.

Not at all. There was prime minister Gyula Gömbös 1932-1936, who had plans to establish a fascist regime,but then he died and was replaced by conservatives. And before he became Prime Minister, Horthy asked him to "tone down" his rhetoric.

The Horthy regime also banned the Arrow Cross party, and it was only legalized again after German invasion (Operation Margarethe). The Arrow Cross leader, Ferenc Szálasi, was also repeatedly imprisoned at Horthy's command.


John F. Montgomery, who served in Budapest as U.S. ambassador from 1933 to 1941, openly admired this side of Horthy's character and reported the following incident in his memoir: in March 1939, Arrow Cross supporters disrupted a performance at the Budapest opera house by chanting "Justice for Szálasi!" loud enough for the regent to hear. A fight broke out, and when Montgomery went to take a closer look, he discovered that:

...two or three men were on the floor and he [Horthy] had another by the throat, slapping his face and shouting what I learned afterward was: "So you would betray your country, would you?" The Regent was alone, but he had the situation in hand.... The whole incident was typical not only of the Regent's deep hatred of alien doctrine, but of the kind of man he is. Although he was around seventy two years of age, it did not occur to him to ask for help; he went right ahead like a skipper with a mutiny on his hand


Like Blogen said, there was never any fascism, but the regime was conservative with authoritarian tendencies.

[Gaston]

I thought the debate, or rather wishful speculations, were close. Ashkenazi Jews are very similar to Sefardi and Northwest African Jews: mostly of ancient Levantine ancestry and they just vary slightly in their minor European and Berber ancestry.

Exotic ancestries, like Khazars, are very likely but it's anecdotal.

[CalligraphyRush]

No. We are Levantine and European hybrids. That is why we cluster with Southern Italians and not with Chechens. However, the frequency of blue eyes is higher among us than it is among other Mediterraneans.

[Smeagol]

and they just vary slightly in their minor European
40-60%.


and Berber ancestry

4%.

[Prince Carlo]

However, the frequency of blue eyes is higher among us than it is among other Mediterraneans.

http://images.wikia.com/glee/images/6/6f/28468-Taylor-swift-lol-gif-OMBg.gif

[Han Cholo]

No. We are Levantine and European hybrids. That is why we cluster with Southern Italians and not with Chechens. However, the frequency of blue eyes is higher among us than it is among other Mediterraneans.

What mediterraneans? Only the countries surrounding you probably (Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria).

[Prince Carlo]

What mediterraneans? Only the countries surrounding you probably (Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria).

You are not used to Jewish drama, aren't you? There is a woman called Amanda on Anthroscape who is even more ludicrous.

[riverman]

......

[Prince Carlo]

Nope, people on this forum are continually bringing up the fact that jews place near s.Italians on genetic charts

I meant the fact the jews have a higher percentage of blue eyes than Southern Europeans.

[riverman]

.......

[Smeagol]

I meant the fact the jews have a higher percentage of blue eyes than Southern Europeans.

Ashkenazis do.

[KidMulat]

:eyerolls this whole thread: :ranger:

[CalligraphyRush]

I meant the fact the jews have a higher percentage of blue eyes than Southern Europeans.

We do. Around 40% of Ashkenazi have blue or light eyes. It is not as high for other Mediterraneans.

I also see no reason for you to be upset about this. Having a higher proportion of lighter eyes does not mean one is better.

http://www.settimanalesi.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/FRANCESCA-CHILLEMI.jpg

That is an Italian woman with brown eyes who I think is pretty.


What mediterraneans? Only the countries surrounding you probably (Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria).

I am comparing Ashkenazi to the people we cluster with. We do not cluster with Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, and so on.

[Gaston]

For some reason, people are mixing West Eurasian plots and Global plots (which includes all the ancestry). Ashkenazis do not cluster with Southern Europeans (but in the continuum of minor African ancestry composed of Middle Eastern people mostly) except those with similar level of African ancestry (Sicilians for instance). But there are quite a few Ashkenazis who are substantially shifted to the East and this indicades distant asian ancestry, either directly or indirectly through another population (Northeast Europeans, Caucasians etc).

[Smeagol]

For some reason, people are mixing West Eurasian plots and Global plots (which includes all the ancestry). Ashkenazis do not clustern with Southern Europeans except those with similar level of African ancestry (Sicilians for instance). But there are quite a few Ashkenazis who are substantially shifted to the East and this indicades distant asian ancestry, either directly or indirectly through another population (Northeast Europeans, Caucasians etc).

Ashkenazis cluster with Sicilians, and south Italians, not with any Levantines.

[Philo]

You are not used to Jewish drama, aren't you? There is a woman called Amanda on Anthroscape who is even more ludicrous.

They are the same account, I am pretty damn sure.
She's so annyoing.
And half negro as well.

[Gaston]

Ashkenazis cluster with Sicilians, and south Italians, not with any Levantines.

On Global plots, not all Southern Italians have African ancestry so Ashkenazis cluster with the least African of Levantines.

[Smeagol]

On Global plots, not all Southern Italians have African ancestry so Ashkenazis cluster with the least African of Levantines.

Show me one of these plots. And, Sicilians/South Italians actually have more African ancestry.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

[Illancha]

No. We are Levantine and European hybrids. That is why we cluster with Southern Italians and not with Chechens. However, the frequency of blue eyes is higher among us than it is among other Mediterraneans.
Errr... what do we have to do with any of this?

Funnily enough it was your fellow Israeli, ariel, who was claiming Ashkenazis are related to North Caucasians, when I tried to refute it a hilarious set of posts ensued.

[Kiyant]

I still dont understand how this stupid rumour still exist maybe there are some Ashkenaz with a Khazar background but most are not the "real" descendands are most likely Caucasus Turkics and Chuvashs

[Philo]

I still dont understand how this stupid rumour still exist maybe there are some Ashkenaz with a Khazar background but most are not the "real" descendands are most likely Caucasus Turkics and Chuvashs
I know 7eleven(OP) very well. He has some weird self-hate problems with his Jewish ancestry. Pretty sad lol

[Kiyant]

I know 7eleven(OP) very well. He has some weird self-hate problems with his Jewish ancestry. Pretty sad lol

Maybe i should when i have a little more money take a genentic test would be interesting to see what it would say to me.

[Prince Carlo]

Show me one of these plots. And, Sicilians/South Italians actually have more African ancestry.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

Nah. Those samples are hardly representative. They are either from the far south (Reggio Calabria and the likes) or are Sicilians. Dienekes said it somewhere in his blog. All the Jews who post here score 1-2% SSA admixture on all the calculators. Compare it to Rubben, Vesuvian sky, Vesuvian sky's grandmother, JAX's grandfather who score 0% on almost all the calcualtors. BTW MDLP who uses far more samples than Dodecad, shows the Ashkenazi Jews as being nearly 2% SSA on average.


We do. Around 40% of Ashkenazi have blue or light eyes. It is not as high for other Mediterraneans.


:picard1:

Ashkenazi Jews are about the same as Sepahardi Jews in term of pigmentation.

[Prince Carlo]

OMG 7eleven who is only half Ashkenazi score quite more SSA than JAX's South Italian grandfather. Nuff Said.

[Germaniac]

Ashkenazi Jews are mostly European, with a Middle Eastern mix. Some are indeed PARTIALLY descended from Central Asian tribes, like the Khazars, but that's a minority rather than the rule.

[Philo]

OMG 7eleven who is only half Ashkenazi score quite more SSA than JAX's South Italian grandfather. Nuff Said.

SSA? East African at best. And part of 7eleven's could come from freed slaves(his father's side).
This is mine on Dodecad V3:

32.65% Mediterranean
24.33% West_Asian
17.65% West_European
13.77% Southwest_Asian
4.56% East_European
4.11% Northwest_African
1.70% Southeast_Asian
0.91% East_African
0.29% Palaeo_African
0.02% South_Asian
0.01% Northeast_Asian
0.00% Neo_African

Not much more than Southern Italians, I presume. Maybe even less.

[Smeagol]

Nah. Those samples are hardly representative. They are either from the far south (Reggio Calabria and the likes) or are Sicilians.

How much SSA do Sicilians score on average?


All the Jews who post here score 1-2% SSA admixture on all the calculators.

Philo doesn't, I don't know about the other Ashkenazis , I don't think all of them posted their results.


BTW MDLP who uses far more samples than Dodecad, shows the Ashkenazi Jews as being nearly 2% SSA on average.

East African maybe, which is better than being a bantu from the congo. I imagine it comes from the Egyptians anyway.


Ashkenazi Jews are about the same as Sepahardi Jews in term of pigmentation.

No they aren't, Sephardics are much swarthier.

[Philo]

No they aren't, Sephardics are much swarthier.
Not really. I've known very pale Sephardics and very dark ones .

[gregorius]

No. We are Levantine and European hybrids. That is why we cluster with Southern Italians and not with Chechens. However, the frequency of blue eyes is higher among us than it is among other Mediterraneans.

Chechens have higher frequency of light eyes compared to ashkenazis, just sayin..

[Smeagol]

Chechens have higher frequency of light eyes compared to ashkenazis, just sayin..

Source?

[Smeagol]

Not really. I've known very pale Sephardics and very dark ones .

I'm not really talking about skin color though, in eye, and hair color Ashkenazis are lighter.

[gregorius]

Source?

There was once a table here which i cant find (it wasnt really reliable anyway), But on those Map Chechens are lighter pigmented than both Askhenazis and Southern Italians ,not saying that those maps are accurate either but one a overal note I think we can conclude it.

[Prince Carlo]

Not much more than Southern Italians, I presume. Maybe even less.

That's 1%. I've said between 1 and 2% dude. I am sorry but all southern italian and part southern italian persons posting here score 0%. I don't care what set of samples Dodecad uses. MDLP give different results and uses way more samples than both Dodecad and Eurogenes.


There was once a table here which i cant find (it wasnt really reliable anyway), But on those Map Chechens are lighter pigmented than both Askhenazis and Southern Italians ,not saying that those maps are accurate either but one a overal note I think we can conclude it.

Chechens are little bit lighter but their facial features are quite un european.

[Philo]

I'm not really talking about skin color though, in eye, and hair color Ashkenazis are lighter.

Well, that's true probably.

That's 1%. I've said between 1 and 2% dude. I am sorry but all southern italians posting here score 0%.
What the hell are you on about Rafa?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0
Scroll down to "South Italians" and "South Italians sicilians". They score more NeoAfrican+Palaeo African+East African than me.


Correction: South Italian Sicilian score 1.2% Like me, and South Italian score 1.4%

[Prince Carlo]

Well, that's true probably.

What the hell are you on about Rafa?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0
Scroll down to "South Italians" and "South Italians sicilians". They score more NeoAfrican+Palaeo African+East African than me.

I don't care. SSA come from the Moors and they went only in some places. Check the results of people posting on this forum.

[Philo]

I don't care. SSA come from the Moors and they went only in some places. Check the results of people posting on this forum.

SSA comes from the Moors? How is that exactly?
And Sicily was an emirate for some time as well. So Arabs.
It really does'nt matter. The point is average for Jews is about the same as average for South Italian/sicilian when it comes to African components. Alfieb does'nt count as he's 1/4 north Italian, Jaxman is also only 1/4 Siclian. The only guy that is comparable is Sicilianu but I can't dig his results now just for this :lol:

[gregorius]

That's 1%. I've said between 1 and 2% dude. I am sorry but all southern italian and part southern italian persons posting here score 0%. I don't care what set of samples Dodecad uses. MDLP give different results and uses way more samples than both Dodecad and Eurogenes.



Chechens are little bit lighter but their facial features are quite un european.

wel I was discussing about pigmentation, :cool:

[Prince Carlo]

SSA comes from the Moors? How is that exactly?
And Sicily was an emirate for some time as well. So Arabs.
It really does'nt matter. The point is average for Jews is about the same as average for South Italian/sicilian when it comes to African components. Alfieb does'nt count as he's 1/4 north Italian, Jaxman is also only 1/4 Siclian. The only guy that is comparable is Sicilianu but I can't dig his results now just for this :lol:

LOL you are clueless. Sicilians are a quite isolated population living on an island. Jaxman's grandfather comes from Calabria and scores about 0% SSA, unlike you joos who get plenty of SSA on every calculator. So do other mainland southern italian and part southern italian persons posting on this forum. Dodecad uses a wrong set of samples and MDLP also gives almost 0% SSA for mainland South Italians. Deal with it.

[Smeagol]

SSA comes from the Moors?

They had SSA slaves from Mali, and Mauritania. The North African Moors would have had less SSA then today.

[curupira]

The only guy that is comparable is Sicilianu but I can't dig his results now just for this :lol:

Sicilianu Dodecad V3 results...

34.8% Mediterranean
27.4% West_Asian
17.2% West_European
11.4% Southwest_Asian
6.6% Northwest_African
1.5% East_European
1.1% East_African
0.2% Neo_African
0% South_Asian
0% Northeast_Asian
0% Southeast_Asian
0% Palaeo_African
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?71242-Sicilian-Apricity-Members-Autosomal-Y-Chromosome-and-mtDNA-results&p=1383406#post1383406