Are Ashkenazi Jews Khazars?

[7eleven]

Are Ashkenazi Jews descended from the Khazars?
I mean come on they look nothing like Semites.

[Anglojew]

I might be partially

[Herbalist]

I thought that theory was debunked long ago with carbon dating. The found Jewish artifacts in Khazar cities but carbon dating placed they way older than structures built by the Khazars (who always built their cities on top of the ruins of older cities).

[ariel]

have not such thing as semite.....

[Sikeliot]

They are Levantine primarily, with some degree of South Italian and Germanic ancestry.

[7eleven]

They are Levantine primarily, with some degree of South Italian and Germanic ancestry.

Hahaha Ive never seen an Ashkenazi who looked Levantine. They all look European imo

[Sikeliot]

Hahaha Ive never seen an Ashkenazi who looked Levantine. They all look European imo

Brad Garrett, Jason Alexander, and Amy Winehouse all look fairly Levantine.

[SkyBurn]

They are Levantine primarily, with some degree of South Italian and Germanic ancestry.

Genetically, they can score anywhere between 30 and 70 per cent Middle Eastern, but usually average out around Southern Italy. I wouldn't say 'primarily'.
Also, the Slavic and Spanish influence can't be left out.

[7eleven]

To me Ashkenazi Jews look Western European.

[Sikeliot]

Genetically, they can score anywhere between 30 and 70 per cent Middle Eastern, but usually average out around Southern Italy. I wouldn't say 'primarily'.
Also, the Slavic and Spanish influence can't be left out.

They average around southern Italy because Sicilians, Calabrese etc. are basically Neolithic with around ~20% Indo-European admixture.

But, most Ashkenazis are descended from Jews who lived in southern Italy (modern day Lazio southward to Sicily) prior to their migration to the Rhine Valley but after their expulsion from Israel.

[SkyBurn]

They average around southern Italy because Sicilians, Calabrese etc. are basically Neolithic with around ~20% Indo-European admixture.

But, most Ashkenazis are descended from Jews who lived in southern Italy (modern day Lazio southward to Sicily) prior to their migration to the Rhine Valley but after their expulsion from Israel.

From my knowledge, the Roman empire scattered them across Europe, with many going to Spain and Germany. After a serious of expulsions, both of these groups conglomerated in Eastern Europe, becoming what is now known as the Ashkenazis. And there is certainly more than 20%.


To me Ashkenazi Jews look Western European.

I've been told I give off more of a slavic vibe, actually.

[SSlava]

Hahaha Ive never seen an Ashkenazi who looked Levantine. They all look European imo

at ashkenazi there are Slavic ancestors. I
have no Jews in a family tree, but there is a
set of matches with them.
or both they and at me have ancestors
Khazars))))))
all Russians of the South of Russia have
matches with Jews

[Sikeliot]

From my knowledge, the Roman empire scattered them across Europe, with many going to Spain and Germany. After a serious of expulsions, both of these groups conglomerated in Eastern Europe, becoming what is now known as the Ashkenazis. And there is certainly more than 20%.

But they started out mostly in southern Italy before being expelled to those other places. Especially considering at the time of the expulsion out of Israel, the Roman Empire was smaller than it'd be after.

In 200 AD, most of your ancestors would have been living right beside mine.

[Mark]

Hahaha Ive never seen an Ashkenazi who looked Levantine. They all look European imo
Another thing to consider: Some pure Levantines appear to exhibit an almost European appearance because their skin is lighter than some other middle-eastern groups, etc.

[SkyBurn]

at ashkenazi there are Slavic ancestors. I
have no Jews in a family tree, but there is a
set of matches with them.
or both they and at me have ancestors
Khazars))))))
all Russians of the South of Russia have
matches with Jews

I have many Russian and Ukrainian matches. There is certainly a strong genetic connection.


But they started out mostly in southern Italy before being expelled to those other places. Especially considering at the time of the expulsion out of Israel, the Roman Empire was smaller than it'd be after.

In 200 AD, most of your ancestors would have been living right beside mine.

I agree.

[Sikeliot]

And I also do believe that Jews do have a substantial genetic input from southern Italians. Also explains why so many of us all look alike.

[Kiyant]

Im Turkic and have jewish relatives in the caucasus so they could have some jewish sncestry but the Ashkenaz are not Khazars or only have a really little Khazar influence.

[Sikeliot]

Dodecad K10

South Italian/Sicilian, Ashkenazi in that order:

SW Asian: 17.6, 20.4
Mediterranean: 40.4, 37.5
West Asian: 23.7, 23.1
North European: 16.5, 16

No component is more than 3% away.

[riverman]

at ashkenazi there are Slavic ancestors. I
have no Jews in a family tree, but there is a
set of matches with them.
or both they and at me have ancestors
Khazars))))))
all Russians of the South of Russia have
matches with Jews

Problem is, Ashkenaz were largely in areas west of there like Germany. And Yiddish is a changed form of Hebrew, not some European dialect.

[Proto-Shaman]

PARTIALLY. reason -> Khazar/Ashina R1a.

[Loki]

But, most Ashkenazis are descended from Jews who lived in southern Italy (modern day Lazio southward to Sicily) prior to their migration to the Rhine Valley but after their expulsion from Israel.

What? Are you serious? They came primarily from Eastern Europe methinks.

[Formozgan]

Hahaha Ive never seen an Ashkenazi who looked Levantine. They all look European imo

Really?

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5134/purecoincidencegy3.jpg

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/images/chertofftapir.jpg

http://jewishfaces.com/images/JFBankBernankeBen02.jpeg

http://images.coveralia.com/autores/fotos/adam-sandler39380.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_y5Q2Nf_Px5s/RutqnbS9PdI/AAAAAAAAAOQ/zZtXCMV5LA8/s400/DonFrancisco.jpeg

http://cdn1.electronicintifada.net/sites/electronicintifada.net/files/artman2/1/avigdor-lieberman-260_001_001_003.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Ariel_Sharon%2C_by_Jim_Wallace_%28Smithsonian_Inst itution%29.jpg

[Loki]

And Yiddish is a changed form of Hebrew, not some European dialect.

No, Yiddish is a Germanic language.

[Loki]

But they started out mostly in southern Italy before being expelled to those other places.

Do you have a credible source for this?

[Loki]

Really?


Cherrypicking is fun, isn't it?

And to me Ashkenazis generally don't look Italian at all. They are more white than Italians.

[Equilibrium]

When thinking about Levantine influenced Jews, Lloyd Blankfein comes to mind, the caricature of the evil Jewish banker. ;)

http://blogs.reuters.com/breakingviews/files/2009/12/blankfein.jpg

[Wadaad]

Problem is, Ashkenaz were largely in areas west of there like Germany. And Yiddish is a changed form of Hebrew, not some European dialect.
What? Yiddish is a form of Germanic creole/patois...

[riverman]

What? Yiddish is a form of Germanic creole/patois...

Already addressed earlier in the thread.

[Anglojew]

I think the trouble with these discussions is the assumption that it's all or nothing eg 100% Levantine or 100% Khazar, even the accounts of travellers to Khazaria talk about other Jews eg Judeans being present there. At most some Khazars were absorbed by other preexisting Jewish populations.

As a Q Haplogroup I've done a lot of research into this but the biggest obstacle to the Khazar theory is the lack of Q's in today's Turkic-Jewish populations whilst Q seems associated more with Hunnic groups.

[Formozgan]

Cherrypicking is fun, isn't it?

And to me Ashkenazis generally don't look Italian at all. They are more white than Italians.

No cherrypicking. He said all Askhenazis look European. My set of picture was enough to prove they do not. It was not even that cherrypicked. I just searched "yehud" and this appeared.

[Loki]

Which is the Italian, and which is the Jew?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=7893&dateline=1378477827

http://www.cvs.k12.mi.us/dakota/images/staff/misuraca.jpg

[mr. logan]

Some do, others look semitic and a small part White.

[Hayalet]

I mean come on they look nothing like Semites.
They look more like Semites than what I would expect Khazars to look like.

[Ice cube]

(Real, not religious) Jews are descendants from khazars but random converts aren't like that so the question is : which one are you?
And ofcourse alot of askenazim don't look very jewish or khazarish because of their interbreeding with europeans.

[Loki]

(Real, not religious) Jews are descendants from khazars but random converts aren't like that so the question is : which one are you?
And ofcourse alot of askenazim don't look very jewish or khazarish because of their interbreeding with europeans.

Ashkenazim remained very homogenous for a long time. They are a distinct ethnicity. There wasn't much intermarrying between them and Europeans, and not even with other Jews.

[Ice cube]

Ashkenazim remained very homogenous for a long time. They are a distinct ethnicity. There wasn't much intermarrying between them and Europeans, and not even with other Jews.
Well, that armenoid had to come from somewhere?

[Loki]

Well, that armenoid had to come from somewhere?

How is it relevant to what I had said?

[Ice cube]

How is it relevant to what I had said?

Armenoids are Khazar descendants (o_-)?

[Kiyant]

Armenoids are Khazar descendants (o_-)?

No

[Ice cube]

No

Wrong, they're actually pretty close.
And there is a lot of consistent overlapping between the two .

[Vesuvian Sky]

A few other Apricity classics on the subject:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?68316-Khazar-origin-of-the-European-jews-has-been-confirmed-by-a-study-in-John-Hopkins-university&highlight=khazar

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?48060-the-khazar-theory-debunked-links&highlight=khazar

In short, no.

[Ice cube]

Maybe not as a whole, but armenoid-khazar is still part of them:)

[Artek]

Yes and no. In some part they surely are, at least paternally (part of R1b, Q).

[SkyBurn]

If there is Khazarian input, I'm sure it's minor.

[Loki]

Maybe not as a whole, but armenoid-khazar is still part of them:)

What gave you the idea Khazars were Armenoid? They were a Turkic people.

[Sikeliot]

What? Are you serious? They came primarily from Eastern Europe methinks.

After their expulsion from Israel, European Jews were clustered in southern Italy, from which they later spread out, first to Western Europe, and then into Eastern Europe. Russian Jews are descended from German Jews who moved east only 800 years ago.

[Loki]

After their expulsion from Israel, European Jews were clustered in southern Italy, from which they later spread out, first to Western Europe, and then into Eastern Europe. Russian Jews are descended from German Jews who moved east only 800 years ago.

Source? I don't see it in the Wikipedia article. Ashkenazi Jews went from Palestine to Eastern and Central Europe. Don't confuse them with other Jews. There's nothing Italian about them.

[Sikeliot]

Source? I don't see it in the Wikipedia article. Ashkenazi Jews went from Palestine to Eastern and Central Europe. Don't confuse them with other Jews. There's nothing Italian about them.

Wikipedia? :lol: And people have posted links about Jews in Italy but I am too lazy to find it now.

I thought the migration went like this:

Israel --> Southern Italy (by Romans)
And from there, those who went to Spain became Sephardi, those who went to Germany Ashkenazi.

They're called Ashkenazi for a reason.. Ashkenaz was the ancient Hebrew name for Germany. Only from there did they then spread to Eastern Europe.

[Loki]

Wikipedia? :lol: And people have posted links about Jews in Italy but I am too lazy to find it now.

I thought the migration went like this:

Israel --> Southern Italy (by Romans)
And from there, those who went to Spain became Sephardi, those who went to Germany Ashkenazi.

They're called Ashkenazi for a reason.. Ashkenaz was the ancient Hebrew name for Germany. Only from there did they then spread to Eastern Europe.

No, you thought wrong. There is no proof for that. Evidence suggests otherwise.

Ashkenazi and Sephardi did not separate from a common group in Italy.

[Sikeliot]

No, you thought wrong. There is no proof for that. Evidence suggests otherwise.

Ashkenazi and Sephardi did not separate from a common group in Italy.

Then let's see you provide a better explanation as to why Sicilians' DNA gets misread on some calculators as Ashkenazi, and why no genetic component is more than 2% different for the two groups. On the contrary the same is not true when comparing to Greeks, who have 2 to 3x as much Northern European.

[curupira]

If it is there, it should be very minor.

Dodecad Oracle k12b results of Ashkenazi Jews (they're clearly quite related to other Jewish and Near Eastern groups, particularly Sephardic and Moroccan Jews):


DodecadOracle(c(2.8, 0.6, 4.2, 0, 25.1, 13.2, 1.3, 0.4, 12.8, 0.5, 39, 0),k=82)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Ashkenazy_Jews" "0"
[2,] "Ashkenazi_D" "1.8248"
[3,] "Sicilian_D" "6.1514"
[4,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "6.5383"
[5,] "Sephardic_Jews" "8.8578"
[6,] "Greek_D" "9.078"
[7,] "Morocco_Jews" "12.8031"
[8,] "C_Italian_D" "13.5477"
[9,] "Cypriots" "15.5827"
[10,] "O_Italian_D" "17.4333"
[11,] "Tuscan" "17.9025"
[12,] "Turkish_D" "18.9296"
[13,] "TSI30" "19.4728"
[14,] "Lebanese" "21.4156"
[15,] "Turks" "21.9066"
[16,] "Druze" "23.805"
[17,] "Bulgarian_D" "24.5668"
[18,] "Bulgarians_Y" "24.665"
[19,] "Syrians" "24.735"
[20,] "Jordanians" "25.6731"
[21,] "Romanians" "26.421"
[22,] "N_Italian_D" "26.5522"
[23,] "Palestinian" "26.908"
[24,] "North_Italian" "27.5764"
[25,] "Uzbekistan_Jews" "27.7743"
[26,] "Armenian_D" "28.6855"
[27,] "Georgia_Jews" "28.7531"
[28,] "Samaritians" "29.2602"
[29,] "Iraq_Jews" "29.3379"
[30,] "Assyrian_D" "29.3784"
[31,] "Azerbaijan_Jews" "29.5745"
[32,] "Armenians_15_Y" "29.8612"
[33,] "Armenians" "30.6504"
[34,] "Iranian_Jews" "31.1989"
[35] "Kumyks_Y" "31.5393"
[36] Egyptans" "31.691"
[37,] "Nogais_Y" "31.8152"
[38,] "Kurds_Y" "32.7379"
[39,] "Kurd_D" "33.3354"
[40,] "Iranian_D" "33.6982"
[41,] "Iranians" "35.5892"
[42,] "Adygei" "35.933"
[43,] "Balkars_Y" "36.1872"
[44,] "Turkmens_Y" "36.4286"
[45,] "North_Ossetians_Y" "37.0169"
[46,] "Baleares_1KG" "37.042"
[47,] "Canarias_1KG" "37.5781"
[48,] "Chechens_Y" "37.7647"
[49,] "Yemenese" "38.3286"
[50,] "Galicia_1KG" "38.5051"
[51,] "Bedouin" "38.5096"
[52,] "Extremadura_1KG" "38.8348"
[53,] "Murcia_1KG" "39.0442"
[54,] "Portuguese_D" "39.0863"
[55,] "Lezgins" "39.5084"
[56,] "Andalucia_1KG" "39.7006"
[57,] "Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG" "41.1618"
[58,] "Spaniards" "42.0943"
[59,] "Spanish_D" "42.9535"
[60,] "Cataluna_1KG" "43.2757"
[61,] "Hungarians" "43.3482"
[62,] "Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG" "43.7549"
[63,] "Algerian_D" "44.0118"
[64,] "Valencia_1KG" "44.4297"
[65,] "Abhkasians_Y" "44.5719"
[66,] "Cantabria_1KG" "44.7376"
[67,] "French" "44.7471"
[68,] "French_D" "45.029"
[69,] "Aragon_1KG" "45.3586"
[70,] "Tajiks_Y" "45.9169"
[71,] "Uzbeks" "46.8559"
[72,] "Georgians" "47.4162"
[73,] "German_D" "47.9959"
[74,] "Yemen_Jews" "48.444"
[75,] "Mixed_Germanic_D" "49.3436"
[76,] "Sardinian" "51.231"
[77,] "Dutch_D" "51.3298"
[78,] "Kent_1KG" "52.1156"
[79,] "Bnei_Menashe_Jews" "52.3587"
[80,] "CEU30" "52.6992"
[81,] "English_D" "52.7228"
[82,] "Uygur" "53.2533"

[Loki]

Then let's see you provide a better explanation as to why Sicilians' DNA gets misread on some calculators as Ashkenazi, and why no genetic component is more than 2% different for the two groups. On the contrary the same is not true when comparing to Greeks, who have 2 to 3x as much Northern European.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Genetic_origins

Efforts to identify the origins of Ashkenazi Jews through DNA analysis began in the 1990s. Like most DNA studies of human migration patterns, the earliest studies focused on two segments of the human genome, the Y-chromosome (passed on only by males), and the mitochondrial genome (mtDNA, passed on only by females). Both segments are unaffected by recombination, except for the ends of the Y chromosome - the pseudoautosomal regions (PAR1 and PAR2). Genome-wide association studies have also been employed to yield findings relevant to genetic origins. Genetic studies revealed that Ashkenazi Jews originated in the Middle East during the Bronze Age (between 2500 BC and 700 BC) spreading later to Europe.

As I said in visitor message, Ashkenazi Jews form a separate cluster on their own genetically, that's why it's even listed as Ashkenazi, on its own.

If there are any similarities between Italians and Ashkenazim, it's probably because of common Neolithic influence.

[Sikeliot]

See -- only a 6% difference from Sicilians. I wonder why. And I don't believe it is by coincidence. The only possible way it could be is if the two groups miraculously have similar admixture by chance, or if both are fairly close to ancient Levantines.

[Loki]

Ashkenazi Jews never came from Italy:

The name Ashkenazi derives from the biblical figure of Ashkenaz, the first son of Gomer, and a Japhetic patriarch in the Table of Nations (Genesis 10). In the rabbinic literature, the kingdom of Ashkenaz was first associated with the Scythian region, then later with the Slavic territories,[19] and, from the 11th century onwards, with northern Europe and Germany.[20] The Jews living in these regions associated with Ashkenaz's kingdom thus came to call themselves the Ashkenazi.[20] Later, Jews from Western and Central Europe also came to be called Ashkenazi because the main centers of Jewish learning were located in Germany.

[Sikeliot]

Read this:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33ooehu&s=5

[Loki]

Read this:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33ooehu&s=5

You are confused, and didn't read everything. Ashkenazi Jews primarily came from the Scythian region (east Europe), then they moved into Slavic lands and then into Germany.

But,

Later, Jews from Western and Central Europe also came to be called Ashkenazi because the main centers of Jewish learning were located in Germany.

[ALL]

Yes ydna haplogroups [Q][G][R2][R1a] quite likely Khazar converts, combined, not found in Italy in any large quantity or ancient Jerba/Tunisia Jewish population.
http://bmsap.revues.org/956

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_with_Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishDNAProject/default.aspx?vgroup=JewishDNAProject&section=yresults

[Windischer]

you need to distinguish between "western ashkenazim" and jews east of labe (elbe) river - the knaanim, who adopted yiddish from their western brethren in high and late middle-ages (they previously spoke knaanic, a west-slavic language). so these knaanim became "ashkenazified" as yiddish spread eastward (together with ashkenazi migrants).

[Ice cube]

What gave you the idea Khazars were Armenoid? They were a Turkic people.
I felt like mentioning them because they're closely related somehow

[Ice cube]

Anatolid must be also overlapping with armenoid :)

[Sky earth]

Most historians and turkologists say that only the elite of the Khazar empire was Jewish. Judaism itself was never popular among Khazars as most of them were Tengrists, Christians and Muslims. Isn't it strange that we don't have any Jewish Turkic people when the Khazar empire was so important and great? The reason for that is that only a small number of Khazars were Jewish. The predominantly Jewish Turkic speaking Krymchaks and Crimean Karaites are not worth mentioning and don't even make 2500 people together today.

[StonyArabia]

Ashkenazim might have some Khazar blood in them. However it seems that they are mostly converted South Italians who intermixed with Slavs and Germans, with little Semitic influence.

[d3cimat3d]

Ashkenazi Jews are puzzling. On PCA plots I expected them to cluster with Syrians, Lebanese & Palestinians yet they don't.

http://i42.tinypic.com/swtf88.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/ae5pxg.png

They look pan-Mediterranean. I think either the influx of Arabs changed the Levant forever and pulled Jews and Levantines further apart genetically, or Ashkenazim have mixed with Romans. There is very minimal Khazar ancestry in Jews, it's there just not worth mentioning. If you scratch off Mohammedan ancestry from a Levantine what you are left with is an ancient Hebrew.

[Swearengen]

Brad Garrett, Jason Alexander, and Amy Winehouse all look fairly Levantine.

eugene levy is ashkenazi is he not?

I think he's closer to real jewish racial type.

[YeshAtid]

Southern italians are the closest non jewish group to azkhenazim

[Anglojew]

eugene levy is ashkenazi is he not?

I think he's closer to real jewish racial type.

Yes, He does look Levantine.

[Anglojew]

Yes ydna haplogroups [Q][G][R2][R1a] quite likely Khazar converts, combined, not found in Italy in any large quantity or ancient Jerba/Tunisia Jewish population.
http://bmsap.revues.org/956

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_with_Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishDNAProject/default.aspx?vgroup=JewishDNAProject§ion=yresults

I'm a Q but I'm also part-Middle Eastern etc so I think it's clear Khazars intermarried with Judean Jews etc if Q is indeed Khazar (although my own view is it isn't as no Turkic-Jewish populations have it).

[ariel]

Yes, He does look Levantine.

he dosent look like a typical levantine.....

[Anglojew]

he dosent look like a typical levantine.....

I think he could easily be Syrian.

[Libertas]

Cherrypicking is fun, isn't it?

And to me Ashkenazis generally don't look Italian at all. They are more white than Italians.

Many Ashkenazi are paler than Italians.

[Smeagol]

They are Levantine primarily, with some degree of South Italian and Germanic ancestry.

No, not primarily, they are 57% European.

[Maleficent]

No, they aren't.

[Prince Carlo]

Ashkenazim might have some Khazar blood in them. However it seems that they are mostly converted South Italians who intermixed with Slavs and Germans, with little Semitic influence.

Nonsense. Ashkenazim are results of mixing between Levantines males and European/North African females. Genetically they are similar to mainland South Italians but with higher MENA/SSA admixtures.

South Italians (17 samples)

North Euro: 12.70%
Caucasus-Near Eastern: 35.80%
North African: 2.09%
Caucasus-Gedrosia: 10.89%
SW European: 25.56%
Arabic: 6.22%
Cushitic: 0.52%

Ashkenazi Jews (45 samples)

North Euro: 11.84%
Caucasus-Near Eastern: 38.63%
North African: 4.10%
Caucasus-Gedrosia: 8.04%
SW European: 18.41%
Arabic: 8.57%
Cushitic: 2.72%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndHo5TnJZR2VFYW1lcExMNGUyWTVhe VE#gid=0

[daedal1]

Hahaha Ive never seen an Ashkenazi who looked Levantine. They all look European imo

The original levantines resembled west asians like turks more than the modern arabs who live in the region. Cypriots are the closest living example.

A lot of Ashkenazis do look 'middle eastern', but more in the turkish sense than in the 'arab' sense.

[Philo]

Nonsense. Ashkenazim are results of mixing between Levantines males and European/North African females. Genetically they are similar to mainland South Italians but with higher MENA/SSA admixtures.

South Italians (17 samples)

North Euro: 12.70%
Caucasus-Near Eastern: 35.80%
North African: 2.09%
Caucasus-Gedrosia: 10.89%
SW European: 25.56%
Arabic: 6.22%
Cushitic: 0.52%

Ashkenazi Jews (45 samples)

North Euro: 11.84%
Caucasus-Near Eastern: 38.63%
North African: 4.10%
Caucasus-Gedrosia: 8.04%
SW European: 18.41%
Arabic: 8.57%
Cushitic: 2.72%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndHo5TnJZR2VFYW1lcExMNGUyWTVhe VE#gid=0

Shit calculator. Armenians are 1.21% Cushitic there :lol:. Center Italian are 1.54%.

[Maleficent]

The original levantines resembled west asians like turks more than the modern arabs who live in the region. Cypriots are the closest living example.

A lot of Ashkenazis do look 'middle eastern', but more in the turkish sense than in the 'arab' sense.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Modern Levantines are Arabized, and not that much different from the ancient ones. Ashkenazis, Sephardis, and Levantine Arabs come from the exact same Semitic stock. Ashkenazis and Sephardis will look a little more like some western Anatolian Turks(or whatever you're propagating) due to all having European admixture.

[Smeagol]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Modern Levantines are Arabized, and not that much different from the ancient ones. Ashkenazis, Sephardis, and Levantine Arabs come from the exact same Semitic stock. Ashkenazis and Sephardis will look a little more like some western Anatolian Turks(or whatever you're propagating) due to all having European admixture.

Christians. Muslims have Arabian blood.

[daedal1]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Modern Levantines are Arabized, and not that much different from the ancient ones. Ashkenazis, Sephardis, and Levantine Arabs come from the exact same Semitic stock. Ashkenazis and Sephardis will look a little more like some western Anatolian Turks(or whatever you're propagating) due to all having European admixture.

Modern levantine muslims are the descendants of the arab invaders, with palestinians literally clustering with bedouins. There is no evidence to suggest that 'palestinians' are actually closer to true levantines like cypriots.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

Levantine Christians/Druze still have some pre-islamic arabian ancestry, which is why they shift away from Cypriots.

[Maleficent]

Modern levantine muslims are the descendants of the arab invaders, with palestinians literally clustering with bedouins. There is no evidence to suggest that 'palestinians' are actually closer to true levantines like cypriots.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

Levantine Christians/Druze still have some pre-islamic arabian ancestry, which is why they shift away from Cypriots.

Who are you?! I know you are Plutonium(who was banned from AnthroScape today after only 4 posts :lol:) but you must be a sockpuppet or some previously banned member.

Don't put Palestinian in quotations and don't uncapitalize it either. That's insulting and disrespectful.

Palestinians don't always cluster with other Levantines in these studies because a lot of times they will cherrypick and use Gazans and Negev Desert Bedouins instead of real Palestinians from the Israel/West Bank area.

Cypriots aren't true Levantines either as they have some Greek and other European ancestry.

The best example for true Levantines purely descended from the ancient ones are the Druze and Samaritans. The vast majority of Levantine Christians cluster with them, along with a significant minority of Levantine Muslims.

There is some pre-Islamic Arabian influence in them but it's very minimal and not enough for them to deviate away from the Levant genetically.

You sir, are an idiot.

[daedal1]

Palestinians don't always cluster with other Levantines in these studies because a lot of times they will cherrypick and use Gazans and Negev Desert Bedouins instead of real Palestinians from the Israel/West Bank area.

Cypriots aren't true Levantines either as they have some Greek and other European ancestry.




Bring up a study demonstrating 'palestinians' from Israel/West Bank being closer to Cypriots. Go ahead. Cypriots are a well-preserved isolate representative of an archaic population, similar to Sardinians. In this case, Cypriots being Levantines. Cypriots have absolute minimal Greek ancestry, and given that Greeks are already heavily admixed with similar West Asians, it's not enough to make a major impact.

[Anglojew]

Some Palestinians have Arabian YDNA and SSA (especially closer to Egypt eg Gaza) but most retain their majority Levantine genes and many (especially from galilee) are pure ancient Judeans/Samaritans and other ancient groups. It's regional rather than religious by and large.

[Smeagol]

Some Palestinians have Arabian YDNA and SSA (especially closer to Egypt eg Gaza) but most retain their majority Levantine genes and many (especially from galilee) are pure ancient Judeans/Samaritans and other ancient groups. It's regional rather than religious by and large.

No, the majority of Muslims are closer to Arabians, and Egyptians.

[Annihilus]

Are Ashkenazi Jews Khazars?

Very simple answer, there is not one Khazar alive today. Why? because there is no Khazaria.


Are Ashkenazi Jews descended from the Khazars?

Partially yes, they have ancestors that once were part of Khazaria and thus were Khazars.

[MarkyMark]

The khazarian element in ashkenazis is present but not dominant.

[StonyArabia]

No, the majority of Muslims are closer to Arabians, and Egyptians.

False. Religion does not alter your genetics. Many Christians have Ghassanid, and in rare cases Nabatean descent. The Ghassanids did not vanish they had to have been assimilated. Some even have Lakhmid blood. The Christians in Jordan claim Bedouin origins and many are semi-nomadic to this day.

[StonyArabia]

Some Palestinians have Arabian YDNA and SSA (especially closer to Egypt eg Gaza) but most retain their majority Levantine genes and many (especially from galilee) are pure ancient Judeans/Samaritans and other ancient groups. It's regional rather than religious by and large.


Indeed.

[Smeagol]

False. Religion does not alter your genetics.

:rolleyes: The Muslim Levantines are closer to Arabs, and Egyptians then to real Levantines.


Many Christians have Ghassanid, Nabatean descent. The Ghassanids did not vanish they had to have been assimilated.

Yeah, a few do, so what? They're a lot closer to the original Levantines then the Muslims.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Religion excludes breeding with intruders raping your land, that's why middle east christians and misrahi jews in middle east have different genetics.

[StonyArabia]

:rolleyes: The Muslim Levantines are closer to Arabs, and Egyptians then to real Levantines.

You realize that Egyptians are not Arabian but are mostly Arabized people. In fact Muslim and Coptic Egyptians are basically the same. No only Jordanians and ethnic ones being close to Arabians, this includes the Christian of true Jordanian stock and the Muslim population, and not the Palestinians. As the Palestinians both Christian and Muslim migrated in huge drove after 1948 which reduced the ethnic Jordanians into a minority.

Palestinians show affinity toward Arabia, but they are mostly native to the region. In all genetic studies both Muslim and Christian are closer to the Levantine population to the Arabian population.




Yeah, a few do, so what? They're a lot closer to the original Levantines then the Muslims.


Yemenite Jews look like Arabians, yet Muslim Levantines don't look like Arabians on average. Many Levantine Christians score South Bedouin as their results, and this indicates Ghassanid admixture.

[MarkyMark]

You realize that Egyptians are not Arabian but are mostly Arabized people. In fact Muslim and Coptic Egyptians are basically the same. No only Jordanians and ethnic ones being close to Arabians, this includes the Christian of true Jordanian stock and the Muslim population, and not the Palestinians. As the Palestinians both Christian and Muslim migrated in huge drove after 1948 which reduced the ethnic Jordanians into a minority.

Palestinians show affinity toward Arabia, but they are mostly native to the region. In all genetic studies both Muslim and Christian are closer to the Levantine population to the Arabian population.






Yemenite Jews look like Arabians, yet Muslim Levantines don't look like Arabians on average. Many Levantine Christians score South Bedouin as their results, and this indicates Ghassanid admixture.

The Muslims of the Levant are Ghassanids mixed with Roman Byzantines. The ghassanids are present in Jordanian christians and some christians in Syria and Leb but not among the Syriac people except for the Maronites who have taken some converts that were originally not Syriac. Other than that Syriacs and Roman Byzantine arabs are very different.

[Szegedist]

I wonder how many Jews feel relation to Khazars?

This topic is of interest for me, because of the ties my people had to Khazars.

[Smeagol]

You realize that Egyptians are not Arabian but are mostly Arabized people. In fact Muslim and Coptic Egyptians are basically the same. No only Jordanians and ethnic ones being close to Arabians, this includes the Christian of true Jordanian stock and the Muslim population, and not the Palestinians. As the Palestinians both Christian and Muslim migrated in huge drove after 1948 which reduced the ethnic Jordanians into a minority.

Fine.


Palestinians show affinity toward Arabia, but they are mostly native to the region. In all genetic studies both Muslim and Christian are closer to the Levantine population to the Arabian population.

Nope. They are closer to Arabians than pure Levantines like Cypriots.


Yemenite Jews look like Arabians, yet Muslim Levantines don't look like Arabians on average.

Many do.


Many Levantine Christians score South Bedouin as their results, and this indicates Ghassanid admixture.

Only some, and if they do, they aren't pure Levantines. But even the ones who do usually score less than 10%.

[Annihilus]

I wonder how many Jews feel relation to Khazars?

This topic is of interest for me, because of the ties my people had to Khazars.

Almost all of them equal it antisemitism.

[StonyArabia]

Nope. They are closer to Arabians than pure Levantines like Cypriots.

No only ethnic Jordanians being an exception. For the most part they have affinity toward Arabians but they don't cluster with them. Muslim Levantines do not cluster with Arabian population, just like the Christians. This is unlike the Yemenite Jews who do,and even have the same mtDNA lineages as ethnic Arabians.



Many do.

Some do, but many don't. On average they actually don't


Only some, and if they do, they aren't pure Levantines. But even the ones who do usually score less than 10%.

There is no purity of course, but the point is they are no less Arabian than the Muslim counterpart, when many of them actually claim Ghassanid descent and it's affirmed by the fact they score South Bedouin. My point is that on average the Muslim and Christian Levantine population don't differ. This based on all tests that are not biased but factual. However if you are going to include minority groups such as the Negev Bedouins, Syrian Desert tribes, and ethnic Jordanians the result will be skewed toward Arabia.

[Smeagol]

No only ethnic Jordanians being an exception. For the most part they have affinity toward Arabians but they don't cluster with them. Muslim Levantines do not cluster with Arabian population, just like the Christians. This is unlike the Yemenite Jews who do,and even have the same mtDNA lineages as ethnic Arabians.

Wrong. Muslim Palestinians, and Syrians are closer to Arabians.




Some do, but many don't. On average they actually don't

They look like a mix then.


There is no purity of course, but the point is they are no less Arabian than the Muslim counterpart, when many of them actually claim Ghassanid descent and it's affirmed by the fact they score South Bedouin.

Only some, and at low amounts.


My point is that on average the Muslim and Christian Levantine population don't differ. This based on all tests that are not biased but factual. However if you are going to include minority groups such as the Negev Bedouins, Syrian Desert tribes, and ethnic Jordanians the result will be skewed toward Arabia.

Christian, and Muslim Levantines do differ significantly. http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/03/genomewide-diversity-in-levant-haber-et.html

[Mortimer]

Horatio is a Khazar :D

[StonyArabia]

Wrong. Muslim Palestinians, and Syrians are closer to Arabians.

No as the Syrian majority is Arabized Armaeans, this proven by many Syrians who are on 23andme and other side projects such as Harrapa, McDonald and ect.. Well Iraqi and ethnic Jordanian are ethnic Arabians. With Palestinians they are mostly native Levantines with affinities to Arabia and Egypt and this do regional element has very little to do with religion. The only ethnic Arabians in Syria are the Syrian Desert tribes and they are shorter and darker than the majority and look Arabid.





They look like a mix then.

Fine, but this does not negate them not being natives to the Levant.




Only some, and at low amounts.

No many score about 15% to 20% with some having it in very high amounts. This depends if they belong to universal church or ethnic based church.



Christian, and Muslim Levantines do differ significantly. http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/03/genomewide-diversity-in-levant-haber-et.html


The study has been criticized and has many flaws according to some. Look at the above.

[daedal1]

The study has been criticized and has many flaws according to some. Look at the above.

Actually, about this study.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

The pali population selection it uses comes from the HGDP data.

'Worldwide human relationships inferred from genome-wide patterns of variation'

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~lliao/archive/worldwide_human_relationships_inferred_from_genome _wide_patterns_of_variation.pdf

And the data is based on samples taken from palestinians in israel, not gazans.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043759#pone.0043759-Cann1

" In addition, 134 individuals coming from the Middle East (Bedouin from Negev, Israel; Druze from Carmel, Israel; Palestinian from Israel) were included; 29 volunteers from Northern Africa (Mozabite from Mzab, Algeria) and 28 subjects from France from the Human Genome Diversity Panel (HGDP-CEPH) [44], [45]."


So, it is accurate.

[Smeagol]

No as the Syrian majority is Arabized Armaeans, this proven by many Syrians who are on 23andme and other side projects such as Harrapa, McDonald and ect.. Well Iraqi and ethnic Jordanian are ethnic Arabians. With Palestinians they are mostly native Levantines with affinities to Arabia and Egypt and this do regional element has very little to do with religion. The only ethnic Arabians in Syria are the Syrian Desert tribes and they are shorter and darker than the majority and look Arabid.

Syrians maybe. Muslim Palestinians have significant Arabian blood, they're closer to Arabians.





Fine, but this does not negate them not being natives to the Levant.

Yes it does, they aren't natives.




No many score about 15% to 20% with some having it in very high amounts. This depends if they belong to universal church or ethnic based church.

So what? The majority don't, and even if they did, that would just make them non-native as well.




The study has been criticized and has many flaws according to some. Look at the above.

What are it's flaws then?

[MarkyMark]

No as the Syrian majority is Arabized Armaeans, this proven by many Syrians who are on 23andme and other side projects such as Harrapa, McDonald and ect.. Well Iraqi and ethnic Jordanian are ethnic Arabians. With Palestinians they are mostly native Levantines with affinities to Arabia and Egypt and this do regional element has very little to do with religion. The only ethnic Arabians in Syria are the Syrian Desert tribes and they are shorter and darker than the majority and look Arabid.




Fine, but this does not negate them not being natives to the Levant.





No many score about 15% to 20% with some having it in very high amounts. This depends if they belong to universal church or ethnic based church.





The study has been criticized and has many flaws according to some. Look at the above.

The muslims of syria never called themselves syrian until the rise of arab nationalism which distorted the name syrian. You ask a syrian youth and you will say he is syrian, but you ask their grandparents what they and their families used to call themselves and they will say arabs. The fact that thy are mixed with GrecoRomans has distorted the reality to create the illusion that they are Aramean/Syrian. This distortion can be seen in your genetic results which by my recollection plot you in northeastern syria with the Syriacs and Kurds, neither of which you are. Your mixture of Circassian and Arab has created this illusion.

[StonyArabia]

Syrians maybe. Muslim Palestinians have significant Arabian blood, they're closer to Arabians.

I have not seen much about Palestinians. However the Palestinians seem to be intermediate between Levantine and Arabian populations based on where they cluster.





Yes it does, they aren't natives.

The same argument can be used against the Sephardim and Ashkenazim as they are mixed with Europeans. Frankly they are natives.




So what? The majority don't, and even if they did, that would just make them non-native as well.

The Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and even the ethnically Arab Orthodox church have ethnic Arab members in them and many would score good amount of South Arabian ie Ghassanid in one way or form. Well those in the Syriac/Chaldean/Assyrian church are not Arabian.




What are it's flaws then?

Including Negev Bedouins as Muslim Levantines

[Smeagol]

I have not seen much about Palestinians. However the Palestinians seem to be intermediate between Levantine and Arabian populations based on where they cluster.

Exactly, so they're not real Levantines.





The same argument can be used against the Sephardim and Ashkenazim as they are mixed with Europeans. Frankly they are natives.

Well of course Ashkenazi, and Sephardics are not native Levantines.




The Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and even the ethnically Arab Orthodox church have ethnic Arab members in them and many would score good amount of South Arabian ie Ghassanid in one way or form. Well those in the Syriac/Chaldean/Assyrian church are not Arabian.

The majority probably don't.






Including Negev Bedouins as Muslim Levantines


Actually, about this study.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

The pali population selection it uses comes from the HGDP data.

'Worldwide human relationships inferred from genome-wide patterns of variation'

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~lliao/archive/worldwide_human_relationships_inferred_from_genome _wide_patterns_of_variation.pdf

And the data is based on samples taken from palestinians in israel, not gazans.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043759#pone.0043759-Cann1

" In addition, 134 individuals coming from the Middle East (Bedouin from Negev, Israel; Druze from Carmel, Israel; Palestinian from Israel) were included; 29 volunteers from Northern Africa (Mozabite from Mzab, Algeria) and 28 subjects from France from the Human Genome Diversity Panel (HGDP-CEPH) [44], [45]."


So, it is accurate.

[Anglojew]

I wonder how many Jews feel relation to Khazars?

This topic is of interest for me, because of the ties my people had to Khazars.

Having only recently learned I may have some Khazar ancestry I'm interested in this question but the debate is still out as to if the Khazars were an Iranian, Turkic, mixed or other group. No one can answer this. It seems that they were a tribe that originated in Siberia and formed a ruling class of various Turkic, Hunnic and Iranian steppe peoples in which case do we consider them Mongols, Turks, Hungarians, Bulgars, Persians, Azaris etc etc?

[Smeagol]

Having only recently learned I may have some Khazar ancestry I'm interested in this question but the debate is still out as to if the Khazars were an Iranian, Turkic, mixed or other group. No one can answer this. It seems that they were a tribe that originated in Siberia and formed a ruling class of various Turkic, Hunnic and Iranian steppe peoples in which case do we consider them Mongols, Turks, Hungarians, Bulgars, Persians, Azaris etc etc?

The Khazar ruling class was Turkic, the common people were just like modern people from the Caucasus.

[Anglojew]

The Khazar ruling class was Turkic, the common people were just like modern people from the Caucasus.

Isn't there some debate about this? I've read they were a foreign element that ruled over Turks but were orignally a different tribe.

[Smeagol]

Isn't there some debate about this? I've read they were a foreign element that ruled over Turks but were orignally a different tribe.

The ruling class at least was definitely Turkic.

[Anglojew]

The ruling class at least was definitely Turkic.

Do you think the YDNA haplogroup Q is associated with them?

[Smeagol]

Do you think the YDNA haplogroup Q is associated with them?

Yes.

[Anglojew]

Yes.

Why is it not present in surviving Turkic-Jewish groups (eg Krymchaks) then?

[Smeagol]

Why is it not present in surviving Turkic-Jewish groups (eg Krymchaks) then?

I'm not sure. I don't know much about haplogroups, but Q appears to be Mongoloid.

[Anglojew]

I'm not sure. I don't know much about haplogroups, but Q appears to be Mongoloid.

I still disagree because Q is the sister group of R (Main European Haplogroup) not the Mongoloid Haplogroups N and O which are sister groups themselves;

http://64.40.115.138/file/lu/6/52235/NTIyMzV9K3szNTc2MDM=.jpg?download=1

[YeshAtid]

Why is it not present in surviving Turkic-Jewish groups (eg Krymchaks) then?

Aren't they converts ?

[Anglojew]

Aren't they converts ?

I guess but I think they have Judean admixture.

[StonyArabia]

Q does not have to indicate Khazar lineage it's found in Yemenite Jews and Bedouin Arabs as well.

[blogen]

Having only recently learned I may have some Khazar ancestry I'm interested in this question but the debate is still out as to if the Khazars were an Iranian, Turkic, mixed or other group. No one can answer this. It seems that they were a tribe that originated in Siberia and formed a ruling class of various Turkic, Hunnic and Iranian steppe peoples in which case do we consider them Mongols, Turks, Hungarians, Bulgars, Persians, Azaris etc etc?

A part of the Khazars were Khwarazmian origin. Their story started with the Arab intervention in the Khwarazmian civil war.

The two fighting fraction were the conservative loyalists (the legitime ruler Afrighid Shah) and the revolutionaries (his brother Khorrazad). Khorrazad leaded the peasants rebelling against the aristocracy into the fight. Their ideology was a post-mazdakite revolutionary idea. This was an anti-feudal movement with considerable Jewish participation between the Persians. The mazdakites suffered a defeat in Perzsia, but the idea was not destroyed but changed to an anti-feudal revolutionary ideology, the marxism of the medieval Oriens and this idea was the revolutionary movements' basis in the Oriens and Central Asia in the next centuries.

The Arab conquerors considered the local movements dangerous. Because of this the Arabs intervened in the civil war and they supported the loyalists and finally this converted ethnic Iranian origin "Judaist" (rather a post-mazdakite syncretism) population was destroyed in the Qutayba purge* in Khorezm.

The survivors escaped to the Khazars territory they were the mercenaries of the Khazarians (the Khorezmians (Calisian)** were excellent soldiers) and they converted the Khazarians to their "Judaism". But their syncretism was the reason of the reforms of the khazar ruler Obadiah. He*** purified the Khazarian Judaism from the Iranian/Khorezmian syncretism.

The Calisians resisted the reform presumably and they joined the losing side in the Khazarian civil war. They had to escape at twice because of this and they joined to the Magyars.

* the Arab warlord killed all of the revolutionarists and burned all of the books in Khorezm.
** Calisian, káliz = peoples of Kath, the greatest city of Khorezm at this time.
*** "king Obadiah by name, who reorganized the kingdom and established the Jewish religion properly and correctly. He built synagogues and yeshivot, brought in Jewish scholars, and rewarded them with gold and silver. [The Jewish scholars could have come from Baghdad and Constantinople.] They explained to him the Bible, Mishnah, Talmud and the order of divine services. The King was a man who revered and loved the Torah. He was one of the true servants of God. May the Divine Spirit give him rest!"
the letter of Joseph the king of Khazars

basic source: С.П.Толстов: Древний Хорезм. Опыт историко-археологического исследования - МГУ, 1948 (Hungarian edition: Sz.P. Tolsztov: Az ősi Khorezm - Hungária könyvkiadó, 1947)

[Prince Carlo]

Here are the differences between various levantine groups.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3563/levant1.jpg[/QUOTE]


Shit calculator. Armenians are 1.21% Cushitic there :lol:. Center Italian are 1.54%.

Nah. MDLP only uses way more samples than other softwares, which means that few clusters may have odd results. Last Eurogenes runs give similar results.

[SkyBurn]

Here are the differences between various levantine groups.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3563/levant1.jpg
[/QUOTE]

:laugh:

Where did you get that table? Biggest bullshit I've ever seen. The French are 20% Levant? Ashkenazis are 1/4 European? Seems legit.

[Prince Carlo]

:laugh:

Where did you get that table? Biggest bullshit I've ever seen. The French are 20% Levant? Ashkenazis are 1/4 European? Seems legit.

Levant includes med and caucasus like alleles. You can find the results in the table.

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2013/03/genomewide-diversity-in-levant-haber-et.html

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Do you think the YDNA haplogroup Q is associated with them?

The leaders were not turkic, they were a mix of r1a1 and Q. I am not sure what is generally considered the "correct" y-dna for turkic people but I will just come out and say it's J2, regardless of what anyone else thinks. So You could not say the khazars were genetically turkic, really.

Language I am not sure of but they were serpent worshippers like the illyrians. From the description of them I might go so far as to come out as say they WERE the illyrians, or the remnants of them. Regardless of what everyone in balkans say we also know there's not much genetic continuity in the whole region. When you have red hair and some other elements thrown in this seems more and more likely.

So there should have been quite a few of them, not just a small ruling class of khazars. But there was definitely others who became part of the empire, as it grew pretty large. They were exceptional warriors and smashed the muslims many times, along with a few others. It was only the overwhelming numbers coming out of the east that scattered them to the winds in the end.

[SkyBurn]

Levant includes med and caucasus like alleles. You can find the results in the table.

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2013/03/genomewide-diversity-in-levant-haber-et.html

Ashkenazi Jews clustering over Armania? Lol.

[Anglojew]

The leaders were not turkic, they were a mix of r1a1 and Q. I am not sure what is generally considered the "correct" y-dna for turkic people but I will just come out and say it's J2, regardless of what anyone else thinks. So You could not say the khazars were genetically turkic, really.

Language I am not sure of but they were serpent worshippers like the illyrians. From the description of them I might go so far as to come out as say they WERE the illyrians, or the remnants of them. Regardless of what everyone in balkans say we also know there's not much genetic continuity in the whole region. When you have red hair and some other elements thrown in this seems more and more likely.

So there should have been quite a few of them, not just a small ruling class of khazars. But there was definitely others who became part of the empire, as it grew pretty large. They were exceptional warriors and smashed the muslims many times, along with a few others. It was only the overwhelming numbers coming out of the east that scattered them to the winds in the end.

Do you think, being YDNA Q, I'm a descendent of Khazars?

[Philo]

The leaders were not turkic, they were a mix of r1a1 and Q. I am not sure what is generally considered the "correct" y-dna for turkic people but I will just come out and say it's J2, regardless of what anyone else thinks. So You could not say the khazars were genetically turkic, really.
J2 has nothing to do with Turkics.:picard2: It is associated with agriculture, Greek civilization and Levantines.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Do you think, being YDNA Q, I'm a descendent of Khazars?

Since you are jewish I'd think you'd almost have to be. There's hardly any Q haplotype any more outside of native americans and the most deeply mongolized territories, and I can't see how you could have gone from mongol horder to English Jew, and I think a relatively small amount of mongol admixture would show up. There's endless descendents of ghengis khan in asia but to put it in perspective they only were able to drudge up one in USA who was fully european.

The more prestigious/rich jews of west europe are said to have been khazars though I only have the one lady from portland so far who can trace her father back to it for sure.

[SSlava]

On any calculators at Jews of 40 percent of the European autosomes.
Here an example of the Jew from my match:

# Population Percent
1 EAST_MED 31.22
2 MIDDLE_EASTERN 14.27
3 WEST_MED 11.4
4 WEST_ASIAN 10.53
5 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 9.84
6 ATLANTIC 7.95
7 SOUTH_BALTIC 7.75
8 EAST_EURO 4.87
9 EAST_ASIAN 1.3
10 EAST_AFRICAN 0.88

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 AJ 5.01
2 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 9.04
3 GR 9.16
4 Tuscan 17.77
5 TR 19.17
6 IQ 19.44
7 RO 20.59
8 Samaritan 21.36
9 Assyrian 21.38
10 North_Italian 21.39
11 Serbian 21.86
12 Mandean 22.27
13 Druze 22.73
14 Armenian 23.89
15 Kurdish 24.12
16 IR 24.45
17 PT 26.95
18 HU 28.14
19 AT 28.71
20 ES 29.21

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.4% Samaritan + 42.6% AT @ 2.99
2 50.6% Samaritan + 49.4% Serbian @ 3.12
3 87.5% AJ + 12.5% Druze @ 3.86
4 57% Samaritan + 43% HU @ 3.86
5 61.4% Samaritan + 38.6% West_&_Central_German @ 3.94
6 64.9% Samaritan + 35.1% South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.04
7 51% RO + 49% Samaritan @ 4.3
8 62.5% Samaritan + 37.5% NL @ 4.3
9 65.1% Samaritan + 34.9% NO @ 4.33
10 65.2% Samaritan + 34.8% North_Swedish @ 4.42
11 90.1% AJ + 9.9% Samaritan @ 4.45
12 90.6% AJ + 9.4% IQ @ 4.62
13 92% AJ + 8% Mandean @ 4.65
14 92.5% AJ + 7.5% Assyrian @ 4.72
15 64.4% Samaritan + 35.6% DK @ 4.74
16 96.8% AJ + 3.2% Bedouin @ 4.81
17 95.4% AJ + 4.6% Kurdish @ 4.89
18 63.4% Samaritan + 36.6% English @ 4.9
19 95.9% AJ + 4.1% IR @ 4.91
20 97.5% AJ + 2.5% Armenian @ 4.98

[SSlava]

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 29.79
2 West-Asian 24.07
3 Near_East 21.79
4 North-East-European 19.93
5 Sub-Saharian 1.27
6 North-Amerind 0.9
7 North-European-Mesolithic 0.88
8 East-South-Asian 0.49
9 Austronesian 0.39
10 East-Siberean 0.37
11 Melanesian 0.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Romania (derived) 4.82
2 Greek_East (derived) 7.96
3 Greek_Cretan (derived) 8.69
4 Greek_South (derived) 9.22
5 Greek_Center (derived) 9.3
6 Greek_North (derived) 9.57
7 Ashkenazim_V (derived) 10.06
8 Sicilian (derived) 10.54
9 Italian-Center (derived) 10.68
10 Italian-South (derived) 10.8
11 Greek_Azov (derived) 11.49
12 Ashkenazim (derived) 11.61
13 Jew_Italia (derived) 12.52
14 Jew_Francestrale (derived) 12.53
15 Tatar_Crim (derived) 13.72
16 Jew_Morocco (derived) 13.86
17 Sephardim (derived) 15.03
18 Jew_Tunisia (derived) 15.86
19 Jew_Algeria (derived) 16
20 Costanoan (derived) 16.55

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71% Jew_Syria (derived) + 29% Czech (derived) @ 1.67
2 71.5% Jew_Syria (derived) + 28.5% Slovakian (derived) @ 1.7
3 67.7% Jew_Syria (derived) + 32.3% Hungarian (derived) @ 1.71
4 67.3% Jew_Syria (derived) + 32.7% Croatian (derived) @ 1.75
5 69.2% Jew_Syria (derived) + 30.8% Slovenian (derived) @ 1.79
6 65.8% Jew_Syria (derived) + 34.2% Bosnian (derived) @ 1.8
7 69.4% Jew_Syria (derived) + 30.6% Croatian_V (derived) @ 1.85
8 69.4% Jew_Syria (derived) + 30.6% German (derived) @ 1.86
9 73.9% Ashkenazim_V (derived) + 26.1% Jew-Iraqi (derived) @ 1.9
10 72% Ashkenazim_V (derived) + 28% Jew_Georgia (derived) @ 1.91
11 75.1% Ashkenazim_V (derived) + 24.9% Jew-Iran (derived) @ 1.99
12 73.9% Ashkenazim_V (derived) + 26.1% Jew_Iraqi (derived) @ 2.06
13 70.6% Jew_Syria (derived) + 29.4% German-North (derived) @ 2.09
14 69.3% Ashkenazim_V (derived) + 30.7% Syrian (derived) @ 2.13
15 74.7% Jew_Syria (derived) + 25.3% Belarusian_V (derived) @ 2.23
16 69.4% Ashkenazim_V (derived) + 30.6% Druze (derived) @ 2.28
17 74.4% Jew_Syria (derived) + 25.6% Sorb (derived) @ 2.28
18 67.5% Ashkenazim_V (derived) + 32.5% Lebanese (derived) @ 2.32
19 74.1% Cypriot (derived) + 25.9% Russian_V (derived) @ 2.34
20 62.5% Jew_Syria (derived) + 37.5% Serbian (derived) @ 2.36

[SSlava]

It is visible as Slavic influence. It is an example of the East European Jew.

[SkyBurn]

It is visible as Slavic influence. It is an example of the East European Jew.

Which calculator did you use?

[Prince Carlo]

@SSlava Which runs are those?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

J2 has nothing to do with Turkics.:picard2: It is associated with agriculture, Greek civilization and Levantines.

According to greek nationalist loonies, anyway. I don't want to go into a big thing about it as it's really not worth it, but it's mainly because of a few people trying to push some agenda. Reality is there's a TYPE of j2 that seems to be associated with cretans but the vast majority is obviously not.

In the balkans/greece and Turkey, and a lot of the middle east I don't trust them not to fake results either for that matter. Too much shady stuff goes on with their studies and with past archaeology, they just have no credibility.

[SSlava]

MDLP World22

K36:
Amerindian -
Arabian 9.10%
Armenian 7.68%
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 2.63%
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 5.57%
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 3.42%
East_Med 9.67%
Eastern_Euro 0.75%
Fennoscandian 0.28%
French 3.69%
Iberian 8.79%
Indo-Chinese 1.14%
Italian 13.37%
Malayan 0.36%
Near_Eastern 16.83%
North_African 1.95%
North_Atlantic 2.22%
North_Caucasian 3.99%
North_Sea 1.82%
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 3.78%
West_Med 2.95%

[SSlava]

@SSlava Which runs are those?

F268512
I have it in matches on FTDNA. Among his ancestors surnames of only the East European Jews are specified.

[SkyBurn]

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 29.79
2 West-Asian 24.07
3 Near_East 21.79
4 North-East-European 19.93
5 Sub-Saharian 1.27
6 North-Amerind 0.9
7 North-European-Mesolithic 0.88
8 East-South-Asian 0.49
9 Austronesian 0.39
10 East-Siberean 0.37
11 Melanesian 0.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Romania (derived) 4.82
2 Greek_East (derived) 7.96
3 Greek_Cretan (derived) 8.69
4 Greek_South (derived) 9.22
5 Greek_Center (derived) 9.3

Mine:

1 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 31.76
2 West-Asian 22.17
3 North-East-European 22.02
4 Near_East 19.66
5 North-European-Mesolithic 1.25
6 Paleo-Siberian 1.08
7 South-African 0.9
8 Sub-Saharian 0.44
9 Austronesian 0.26
10 North-Siberean 0.21
11 Samoedic 0.18
12 East-South-Asian 0.06


1 Jew_Romania (derived) 3.11
2 Greek_South (derived) 5.84
3 Greek_East (derived) 5.94
4 Greek_North (derived) 6.38
5 Greek_Center (derived) 6.73
6 Ashkenazim_V (derived) 6.84
7 Italian-Center (derived) 8.59

[SSlava]

Hmm and, the result is very similar!
In general about surname I mixed a little, at it aren't specified))
At others were specified.
But it seems he is Jew East European))

[SkyBurn]

MDLP World22

K36:
Amerindian -
Arabian 9.10%
Armenian 7.68%
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 2.63%
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 5.57%
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 3.42%
East_Med 9.67%
Eastern_Euro 0.75%
Fennoscandian 0.28%
French 3.69%
Iberian 8.79%
Indo-Chinese 1.14%
Italian 13.37%
Malayan 0.36%
Near_Eastern 16.83%
North_African 1.95%
North_Atlantic 2.22%
North_Caucasian 3.99%
North_Sea 1.82%
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 3.78%
West_Med 2.95%

Amerindian -
Arabian 8.22%
Armenian 4.50%
Basque 0.11%
Central_African -
Central_Euro 2.34%
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 2.61%
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 0.62%
East_Med 14.88%
Eastern_Euro 5.55%
Fennoscandian -
French 2.96%
Iberian 13.92%
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 14.98%
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 8.46%
North_African 1.55%
North_Atlantic 4.64%
North_Caucasian 0.60%
North_Sea 2.29%
Northeast_African 0.33%
Oceanian 0.10%
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 1.17%
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.93%
West_African -
West_Caucasian 5.03%
West_Med 4.22%

This one has a fair bit of variance.

[ariel]

I have not seen much about Palestinians. However the Palestinians seem to be intermediate between Levantine and Arabian populations based on where they cluster.








The same argument can be used against the Sephardim and Ashkenazim as they are mixed with Europeans. Frankly they are natives.





The Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and even the ethnically Arab Orthodox church have ethnic Arab members in them and many would score good amount of South Arabian ie Ghassanid in one way or form. Well those in the Syriac/Chaldean/Assyrian church are not Arabian.





Including Negev Bedouins as Muslim Levantines

PALESTINIANS ARE NOT TRUE LEVANTINES

The plots reveal a Levantine structure not reported previously: Lebanese Christians and all Druze cluster together, and Lebanese Muslims are extended towards Syrians, Palestinians, and Jordanians, which are close to Saudis and Bedouins

BTW ALBERTA EUROPEAN ADMIX IS MUCH MORE CLUSTER TO THE ORIGINAL LEVANTINES THAN ARABIAN ADMIX, SO YES, ASHKENAZI AND SEPHARDIC JEWS ARE MORE LEVANTINES THAN ANY MUSLIM GROUP IN THE LEVANT

Our time estimate of divergence between the Levantine and European components (~15,900-9,100 y.a) overlaps with the transition to agriculture in the Levant ~11,000 y.a but is also slightly earlier than the proposed expansion to Europe starting at ~9,000 y.a. [23]–[25]. In agreement with this, a recent study of complete mtDNA sequences also proposed earlier expansion dates (19,000-12,000 y.a) of certain female lineages from the Near East to Europe [26]. These results suggest that population migration to Europe from the Near East could have started after the LGM warming and continued until the Neolithic. In addition, these results show that the modern European genetic component is more recent than would be expected from a component that developed from the initial peopling of Europe in the Upper Paleolithic ~40,000 y.a.[/COLOR]


http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

[daedal1]

PURE PROPAGANDA

Sephardics appear quite close to Cypriots. They're a similar distance from them as Leb Christians are, with the former shifting in the direction of europe (and perhaps north africa), and the latter slightly towards arabia on account of their admixtures.

https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg

Ashkenazis are about as close to Cypriots as Leb/Syrian Muslims would be. As far as palestinians go, they're even closer to Cypriots than palis are.

It's a similar situation with Assyrians/Armenians. Assyrians cluster with Armenians, but that's because the original Mesopotamians were likely closer to southern caucasians, and the admixture present in both populations is less foreign relative to something like SSA.

[Behrouz]

Modern Jews are a mix of EVERYthing.

[ariel]

sephardics appear quite close to cypriots. They're a similar distance from them as leb christians are, with the former shifting in the direction of europe (and perhaps north africa), and the latter slightly towards arabia on account of their admixtures.

https://lh3.ggpht.com/_ish7688vot0/ta_tjcmrcni/aaaaaaaacb0/imp8yjm3d8e/s1600/pca.jpg

ashkenazis are about as close to cypriots as leb/syrian muslims would be. As far as palestinians go, they're even closer to cypriots than palis are.

It's a similar situation with assyrians/armenians. Assyrians cluster with armenians, but that's because the original mesopotamians were likely closer to southern caucasians, and the admixture present in both populations is less foreign relative to something like ssa.

and still the euro admix is more closer to original levantines than arabian admix....

Muslim levantines not true levantines....less than ashkenazi and sephardic jews...

[ariel]

modern jews are a mix of everything.

which jews are you talking about?


Ashkenazi?

Sephardic?

Yemenite jews?

[Behrouz]

which jews are you talking about?


Ashkenazi?

Sephardic?

Yemenite jews?

Jews as a whole.

[ariel]

jews as a whole.

you can not putting all the jews under one category. Its just stupid.

[daedal1]

and still the euro admix is more closer to original levantines than arabian admix....

Muslim levantines not true levantines....less than ashkenazi and sephardic jews...

Christian/Druze Levantines probably have some ghassanid arabian admix too, that's likely why they shift away from cypriots.

[Behrouz]

you can not putting all the jews under one category. Its just stupid.

Why not? Don't you see other jews as brothers?

[Balmung]

I heard if a Jew bites you and infects you with its saliva, you become Jew.

[ariel]

Christian/Druze Levantines probably have some ghassanid arabian admix too, that's likely why they shift away from cypriots.

but this small admix. muslim levantines such palestinians jordanians syriansnd lebanese are predominate arabians with levantine admix.

[daedal1]

and still the euro admix is more closer to original levantines than arabian admix....

Muslim levantines not true levantines....less than ashkenazi and sephardic jews...

Also, when they say 'euro admix', they're referring to european+west asian. Iranians are also part of the west asian group. However, if you segregate Central Europeans from that, you'll find that still, even levantines are closer to egyptians+bedouins than they are to c. euros.

[ariel]

Why not? Don't you see other jews as brothers?

if you are talking about genetic this stupid to say who ethiopian jew and rusian jews are the same....be serious man.

[daedal1]

but this small admix. muslim levantines such palestinians jordanians syriansnd lebanese are predominate arabians with levantine admix.

Syrian/Leb Muslims are 'predominant arabians' as much as ashkenazis are 'predominant europeans'. They're both equidistant from cypriots, overall. And Sephardics have some admix too in the other direction.

[ariel]

Also, when they say 'euro admix', they're referring to european+west asian. Iranians are also part of the west asian group. However, if you segregate Central Europeans from that, you'll find that still, even levantines are closer to egyptians+bedouins than they are to c. euros.

lol

no.

We found that this Levantine component is closer to the European component (dark green) (FST = 0.035) than to the Arabian Peninsula/East Africa component (light green)

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

btw the levantine component is the med component.

[ariel]

Syrian/Leb Muslims are 'predominant arabians' as much as ashkenazis are 'predominant europeans'. They're both equidistant from cypriots, overall. And Sephardics have some admix too in the other direction.

but ashkenazi and sephardic have euro admix, syrian lebanese muslims have arabian admix. not the same case. ashkenazi and sephardic still more similar to levantines than the muslims.

[daedal1]

lol

no.

We found that this Levantine component is closer to the European component (dark green) (FST = 0.035) than to the Arabian Peninsula/East Africa component (light green)

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

btw the levantine component is the med component.

Yes, Cypriots are still closer to egyptians and bedouins than they are to most europeans.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ztxlQ68e19Q/TnC0Z0rW6bI/AAAAAAAAEHc/MQny_v-ygqQ/s1600/pca-caucasus.png

Again, that 'european' element they're referring to represents Central/Northern European + Med + West Asian as an aggregate. Sardinians are Meds.

[ariel]

Yes, Cypriots are still closer to egyptians and bedouins than they are to most europeans.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ztxlQ68e19Q/TnC0Z0rW6bI/AAAAAAAAEHc/MQny_v-ygqQ/s1600/pca-caucasus.png

Again, that 'european' element they're referring to represents Central/Northern European + Med + West Asian as an aggregate. Sardinians are Meds.

We found that this Levantine component is closer to the European component (dark green) (FST = 0.035) than to the Arabian Peninsula/East Africa component (light green)

when they talking about european component they talking about Central/Northern European component.

[Behrouz]

if you are talking about genetic this stupid to say who wthiopian jew and rusian jews are the same....be serious man.

Look Jew, what i'm trying to say is modern Jews (especially Sephardim and Ashkenazim) have nothing to do with Ancient Jews who were brown Semitic slaves carrying stones to not get killed by Pharaoh.

http://affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/wp-content/uploads/building_a_pyramid_bw.jpg

[daedal1]

but ashkenazi and sephardic have euro admix, syrian lebanese muslims have arabian admix. not the same case. ashkenazi and sephardic still more similar to levantines than the muslims.

Not Ashkenazis, they're equidistant as are syrian/leb muslims and arabians are still closer to the levant than north/central europeans.

[ariel]

Look Jew, what i'm trying to say is modern Jews (especially Sephardim and Ashkenazim) have nothing to do with Ancient Jews who were brown Semitic slaves carrying stones to not get killed by Pharaoh.

http://affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/wp-content/uploads/building_a_pyramid_bw.jpg

lol

We reconstructed the genetic structure of the Levantines and found that a pre-Islamic expansion Levant was more genetically similar to Europeans than to Middle Easterners.
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

have no semitic race grow up man....

[ariel]

Not Ashkenazis, they're equidistant as are syrian/leb muslims and arabians are still closer to the levant than north/central europeans.

:picard2:

[daedal1]

We found that this Levantine component is closer to the European component (dark green) (FST = 0.035) than to the Arabian Peninsula/East Africa component (light green)

when they talking about european component they talking about Central/Northern European component.

" Consequently, Levant populations today fall into two main groups: one sharing more genetic characteristics with modern-day Europeans and Central Asians, and the other with closer genetic affinities to other Middle Easterners and Africans."

Those europeans they are referring to are not representative of average europeans. Only those europeans who have extra med/west asian admix like tuscans, etc.. Hence, why European+West Asian are included as one in comparison.

[daedal1]

:picard2:

They are, deal with it. Iranians also fall under the west asian+european tree. That doesn't mean that they are actually genetically closer to French than they are to Palestinians, who fall under the Middle Eastern/North/East African tree.

[Behrouz]

lol

We reconstructed the genetic structure of the Levantines and found that a pre-Islamic expansion Levant was more genetically similar to Europeans than to Middle Easterners.
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

have no semitic race grow up man....

Levant was genetically similar to Europeans than to Middle Easterners? Only in your wet dreams, Jew.

Ancient Jews
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TQKdCAMECR8/TePq_kldQVI/AAAAAAAAAFE/A4kIUO6aQAQ/s1600/hebrew_slaves%25281%2529.jpg

[daedal1]

Levant was genetically similar to Europeans than to Middle Easterners? Only in your wet dreams, Jew.

Ancient Jews
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TQKdCAMECR8/TePq_kldQVI/AAAAAAAAAFE/A4kIUO6aQAQ/s1600/hebrew_slaves%25281%2529.jpg

By 'europeans', they aren't talking about average (CEU) europeans. They're referring to west asians like armenians, turks + med/west asian admixed europeans like some southern european groups. That's why Assyrians cluster with Armenians.

[Prince Carlo]

That study is joke. They have taken everthing who wasn't either Arabian or European and have called it Levant component. I've never seen a study doing that.

[ariel]

That study is joke. They have taken everthing who wasn't either Arabian or European and have called it Levant component. I've never seen a study doing that.

LOL

the joke is people who refusing to accept the truth .

[daedal1]

LOL

the joke is people who refusing to accepting the truth .

The truth is that the Northern European component is intermediate between the Levant and Northern Eurasia/Siberia:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/09/euro.png

Hence, Cypriots are still closer to egyptians and bedouins than they are to most europeans.

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2012_Patterson_AncientAdmixture_Genetics.pdf

[ariel]

The truth is that the Northern European component is intermediate between the Levant and Northern Eurasia/Siberia:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/09/euro.png

Hence, Cypriots are still closer to egyptians and bedouins than they are to most europeans.

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2012_Patterson_AncientAdmixture_Genetics.pdf

lol

Our time estimate of divergence between the Levantine and European components (~15,900-9,100 y.a) overlaps with the transition to agriculture in the Levant ~11,000 y.a but is also slightly earlier than the proposed expansion to Europe starting at ~9,000 y.a. [23]–[25]. In agreement with this, a recent study of complete mtDNA sequences also proposed earlier expansion dates (19,000-12,000 y.a) of certain female lineages from the Near East to Europe [26]. These results suggest that population migration to Europe from the Near East could have started after the LGM warming and continued until the Neolithic. In addition, these results show that the modern European genetic component is more recent than would be expected from a component that developed from the initial peopling of Europe in the Upper Paleolithic ~40,000 y.a.[/

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316


the ancient DNA side, researchers have consistently discovered that for the better part of prehistory, ancient populations did not match modern ones: even if the constituent elements of later evolution could be identified, they were still in polarized non-admixed form as in the case of the Neolithic Swedes

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2012/09/polish-and-german-y-chromosomes.html

[StonyArabia]

That study is joke. They have taken everthing who wasn't either Arabian or European and have called it Levant component. I've never seen a study doing that.

The truth and there is many issues with that particular study. It also does not match with the more accurate 23andme and the side projects that have been done. It's nothing more than an agenda driven study. They need to take neutral and unbiased to come to true conclusions.

[ariel]

The truth and there is many issues with that particular study. It also does not match with the more accurate 23andme and the side projects that have been done. It's nothing more than an agenda driven study. They need to take neutral and unbiased to come to true conclusions.

lol

why because they said who christian levantines and muslim levantines are not the same?

[daedal1]

lol

Our time estimate of divergence between the Levantine and European components (~15,900-9,100 y.a) overlaps with the transition to agriculture in the Levant ~11,000 y.a but is also slightly earlier than the proposed expansion to Europe starting at ~9,000 y.a. [23]–[25]. In agreement with this, a recent study of complete mtDNA sequences also proposed earlier expansion dates (19,000-12,000 y.a) of certain female lineages from the Near East to Europe [26]. These results suggest that population migration to Europe from the Near East could have started after the LGM warming and continued until the Neolithic. In addition, these results show that the modern European genetic component is more recent than would be expected from a component that developed from the initial peopling of Europe in the Upper Paleolithic ~40,000 y.a.[/

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316


the ancient DNA side, researchers have consistently discovered that for the better part of prehistory, ancient populations did not match modern ones: even if the constituent elements of later evolution could be identified, they were still in polarized non-admixed form as in the case of the Neolithic Swedes

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2012/09/polish-and-german-y-chromosomes.html

Again, do you understand what that means? Armenians/Iranians are part of same west asian grouping, they aren't actually genetically closer to french/germans than they are to palestinians. Those neolithic swedes don't represent modern europeans, except for the fringes, get it? The Northern/Central European component, which is the predominant european component is completely separate from the levantine branch. The Indo-Europeans had nothing to do with those people. Cypriots are even intermediate between bedouins and sardinians, by the way.

[daedal1]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Modern Levantines are Arabized, and not that much different from the ancient ones. Ashkenazis, Sephardis, and Levantine Arabs come from the exact same Semitic stock. Ashkenazis and Sephardis will look a little more like some western Anatolian Turks(or whatever you're propagating) due to all having European admixture.

Still waiting for you to actually substantiate your 'gazan' myth. I know you're obsessively down-voting my comments owing to your inferiority complex.

"Actually, about this study.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

The pali population selection it uses comes from the HGDP data.

'Worldwide human relationships inferred from genome-wide patterns of variation'

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~lliao/archive/worldwide_human_relationships_inferred_from_genome _wide_patterns_of_variation.pdf

And the data is based on samples taken from palestinians in israel, not gazans.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043759#pone.0043759-Cann1

" In addition, 134 individuals coming from the Middle East (Bedouin from Negev, Israel; Druze from Carmel, Israel; Palestinian from Israel) were included; 29 volunteers from Northern Africa (Mozabite from Mzab, Algeria) and 28 subjects from France from the Human Genome Diversity Panel (HGDP-CEPH) [44], [45]."


So, it is accurate."

[ariel]

Again, do you understand what that means? Armenians/Iranians are part of same west asian grouping, they aren't actually genetically closer to french/germans than they are to palestinians. Those neolithic swedes don't represent modern europeans, except for the fringes, get it? The Northern/Central European component, which is the predominant european component is completely separate from the levantine branch. The Indo-Europeans had nothing to do with those people. Cypriots are even intermediate between bedouins and sardinians, by the way.

you can keep lying to yourself.....

[StonyArabia]

lol

why because they said who christian levantines and muslim levantines are not the same?


Yes if you look at Harappa the Muslim and Lebanese Christians are not much different at all autosomally. The same can be found in 23andme, McDonalds, and Eurogenes. Religion does not alter your genetics. It's ridiculous to separate people based on religion, this is probably the biggest flaw in the study. Islam for example where it ever went accepted a large amount of converts, since it's universal religion. Another point Arabia was never densely populated to repopulate the whole region from Morocco to Syria.

[daedal1]

you can keep lying to yourself.....

You're the one who is lying to yourself. If you believe that Armenians/Iranians are actually genetically closer to Germans than they are to Palestinians, then you are literally insane.

[Maleficent]

Mine:

1 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 31.76
2 West-Asian 22.17
3 North-East-European 22.02
4 Near_East 19.66
5 North-European-Mesolithic 1.25
6 Paleo-Siberian 1.08
7 South-African 0.9
8 Sub-Saharian 0.44
9 Austronesian 0.26
10 North-Siberean 0.21
11 Samoedic 0.18
12 East-South-Asian 0.06


1 Jew_Romania (derived) 3.11
2 Greek_South (derived) 5.84
3 Greek_East (derived) 5.94
4 Greek_North (derived) 6.38
5 Greek_Center (derived) 6.73
6 Ashkenazim_V (derived) 6.84
7 Italian-Center (derived) 8.59

I also cluster with Jew_Romania on MDLP World-22:

FaerieQueene's MDLP World-22 Oracle Results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 31.76
2 West-Asian 22.86
3 North-East-European 21.36
4 Near_East 17.15
5 North-European-Mesolithic 2.38
6 Indo-Iranian 1.8
7 Sub-Saharian 1.56
8 South-African 0.58
9 South-America_Amerind 0.29
10 Arctic-Amerind 0.27

Single Population Sharing:
# Population Distance
1 Jew_Romania 4.69
2 Greek_East 5.86
3 Greek_South 5.91
4 Greek_North 5.97
5 Greek_Center 6.39
6 Ashkenazim_V 7.7
7 Italian-Center 8.46
8 Italian-South 9.28
9 Sicilian 10.17
10 Greek_Cretan 10.31
11 Greek_Azov 11.65
12 Tatar_Crim 12.6
13 Ashkenazim 12.91
14 Jew_Francestrale 14.66
15 Jew_Italia 14.87
16 Gagauz 15.21
17 Italian-North 15.61
18 Jew_Morocco 16.91
19 Romania 16.99
20 Sephardim 17.41

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population Secondary Population Distance
1 54.9% Druze 45.1% British 1.68
2 52.2% Lebanese 47.8% German-South 1.81
3 56% Druze 44% Orcadian 1.82
4 56.9% Lebanese 43.1% British 1.87
5 54.7% Druze 45.3% CEU 1.95
6 59.6% Swiss 40.4% Jew-Iraqi 2.04
7 57.4% Swiss 42.6% Jew_Georgia 2.07
8 50.2% Syrian 49.8% French 2.14
9 50.2% Druze 49.8% German-South 2.16
10 59.3% Italian_North 40.7% Iraqi 2.19
11 57.9% Lebanese 42.1% Orcadian 2.22
12 60.8% Swiss 39.2% Jew-Iran 2.26
13 56.9% Provancestral 43.1% Iraqi 2.29
14 56.7% Lebanese 43.3% CEU 2.3
15 56.6% Swiss 43.4% Iraqi 2.38
16 56.3% Druze 43.7% Welsh 2.46
17 51.5% French 48.5% Iraqi 2.48
18 52.9% Swiss 47.1% Lebanese 2.49
19 65.7% Cypriot 34.3% Swedish_V 2.53
20 54.9% Swiss 45.1% Syrian 2.53

SO MUCH FOR ME BEING HALF BEDOUIN(ACCORDING TO DAEDAL)

[ariel]

Yes if you look at Harappa the Muslim and Lebanese Christians are not much different at all autosomally. The same can be found in 23andme, McDonalds, and Eurogenes. Religion does not alter your genetics. It's ridiculous to separate people based on religion, this is probably the biggest flaw in the study. Islam for example where it ever went accepted a large amount of converts, since it's universal religion. Another point Arabia was never densely populated to repopulate the whole region from Morocco to Syria.

lol

Christian and Muslim Lebanese do differ from each other after all
Like I said they did in 2007. BBC has a story about this:

The team analysed the Y chromosomes of 926 Lebanese males and found that patterns of male genetic variation in Lebanon fell more along religious lines than along geographical lines.

A genetic signature on the male chromosome called WES1, which is usually only found in European populations, was found among the Lebanese men included in the study.

"It seems to have come in from Europe and is found mostly in the Christian population," said Dr Spencer Wells, director of the Genographic Project.

"This is odd because typically we don't see this sort of stratification by religion when we are looking at the relative proportions of these lineages - and particularly immigration events."

He told BBC News: "Looking at the same data set, we saw a similar enrichment of lineages coming in from the Arabian Peninsula in the Muslim population which we didn't see [as often] in the Christian population."

Lebanese Muslim men were found to have high frequencies of a Y chromosome grouping known as J1. This is typical of populations originating from the Arabian Peninsula, who were involved in the Muslim expansion.

As I predicted, the finding of similarity between Christian and Muslim Lebanese in the older National Geographic story on Wells' and Zalloua's work was premature, based on their common possession of Y-haplogroup J, because it did not look at downstream markers which differentiate between Christians and Muslims. As I observed based on the work of Capelli et al., it is the overrepresentation of Y-haplogroup J*(xJ2), which comprises almost entirely of J1 chromosomes that is the mark of the Arab descent of Muslim Lebanese.

I will post the abstract of this study and any further comments when I see it.

UPDATE: The Genographic project has its own page on this research, as well as a link to the paper (pdf).

Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Lebanon Is Structured by Recent Historical Events

Pierre A. Zalloua et al.

Lebanon is an eastern Mediterranean country inhabited by approximately four million people with a wide variety of ethnicities and religions, including Muslim, Christian, and Druze. In the present study, 926 Lebanese men were typed with Y-chromosomal SNP and STR markers, and unusually, male genetic variation within Lebanon was found to be more strongly structured by religious affiliation than by geography.We therefore tested the hypothesis that migrations within historical times could have contributed to this situation. Y-haplogroup J*(xJ2) was more frequent in the putative Muslim source region (the Arabian Peninsula) than in Lebanon, and it was also more frequent in Lebanese Muslims than in Lebanese non-Muslims. Conversely, haplogroup R1b was more frequent in the putative Christian source region (western Europe) than in Lebanon and was also more frequent in Lebanese Christians than in Lebanese non-
Christians. The most common R1b STR-haplotype in Lebanese Christians was otherwise highly specific for western Europe and was unlikely to have reached its current frequency in Lebanese Christians without admixture.We therefore suggest that the Islamic expansion from the Arabian Peninsula beginning in the seventh century CE introduced lineages typical of this area into those who subsequently became Lebanese Muslims, whereas the Crusader activity in the 11th-13th centuries CE introduced western European lineages into Lebanese Christians.

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2008/03/christian-and-muslim-lebanese-do-differ.html

[ariel]

You're the one who is lying to yourself. If you believe that Armenians/Iranians are actually genetically closer to Germans than they are to Palestinians, then you are literally insane.

:picard2:

[Maleficent]

and still the euro admix is more closer to original levantines than arabian admix....

Muslim levantines not true levantines....less than ashkenazi and sephardic jews...

On EUtest, the East Med component is closest to West Asian and Middle Eastern, buddy. Not to any European components.

https://wiclia.dm1.livefilestore.com/y2pZHmKe01mC83eAmu0D_1EF63ydBw2pXt17tBlTnOxiu_aEeP G_ALQncXvxbMdYsB4YZ1VmzT6QF3AYmGvMgnUBb8w_IW2BtNHQ QxLn2RLWY8/pca12L.png?psid=1

And Druze and Samaritans(purest Levantines) are clustering with other Near Easterners, not Europeans.

https://wiclia.dm1.livefilestore.com/y2p8AOboVH5TYXRISeJbnfkGsge49NF1tiVxEWJS8QP0TlRlk_ HKIXZTO__MZieYxkyO5ynNZm0-bJ4a040-qqdquYKOH-oKiDDWsagW_u6apo/PCA16.png?psid=1

Hey Daedal, you imbecile, Cypriots are a genetic intermediate between Greeks and Druze. They aren't pure Levantine like the Druze and Samaritans are.

[daedal1]

:picard2:

Welcome to reality.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ztxlQ68e19Q/TnC0Z0rW6bI/AAAAAAAAEHc/MQny_v-ygqQ/s1600/pca-caucasus.png

[ariel]

On EUtest, the East Med component is closest to West Asian and Middle Eastern, buddy. Not to any European components.

https://wiclia.dm1.livefilestore.com/y2pZHmKe01mC83eAmu0D_1EF63ydBw2pXt17tBlTnOxiu_aEeP G_ALQncXvxbMdYsB4YZ1VmzT6QF3AYmGvMgnUBb8w_IW2BtNHQ QxLn2RLWY8/pca12L.png?psid=1

In this study we analyze more than 500,000 genome-wide SNPs in 1,341 new samples from the Levant and compare them to samples from 48 populations worldwide


We found that this Levantine component is closer to the European component (dark green) (FST = 0.035) than to the Arabian Peninsula/East Africa component

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

sorry, but this study look much more realistic

[daedal1]

They aren't pure Levantine like the Druze and Samaritans are.

Who said that Druze were pure levantines? They have admixture as well, as the study shows.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

[ariel]

Who said that Druze were pure levantines? They have admixture as well, as the study shows.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

nobody said who druzes are pure levantines.i think who the syrian alawites are the purest levantines

[Maleficent]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg
[QUOTE=daedal1;1917037]Who said that Druze were pure levantines? They have admixture as well, as the study shows.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316
Cypriots cluster with AJ and SJ because all three are Euro/Levant hybrids. Now stop claiming they are pure Levantines, because they aren't.

[Maleficent]

Who said that Druze were pure levantines? They have admixture as well, as the study shows.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316


nobody said who druzes are pure levantines.i think who the syrian alawites are the purest levantines
The Druze and the Samaritans both score the highest East Med component on EUtest. That's proof enough.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQS1lQYUZIVlNmTlk/preview?pli=1

[daedal1]

[QUOTE=daedal1;1917000]

Now stop claiming they are pure Levantines, because they aren't.

Or rather, vice versa, druze cluster closer to arabians, because they have more arabian admix. Stop claiming them as pure Levantines, because they aren't. And, as has been shown, the levantine component would have been closer to the med/west asian component than to the arabian component, anyhow. You also see this with assyrians/armenians.

[daedal1]

The Druze and the Samaritans both score the highest East Med component on EUtest. That's proof enough.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQS1lQYUZIVlNmTlk/preview?pli=1

There are no Cypriots in that study, anyway.

[ariel]

deleted

[Maleficent]

[QUOTE=FaerieQueene;1917076]

Or rather, vice versa, druze cluster closer to arabians, because they have more arabian admix. Stop claiming them as pure Levantines, because they aren't. And, as has been shown, the levantine component would have been closer to the med/west asian component than to the arabian component, anyhow. You also see this with assyrians/armenians.

Why do you insist on propagating that Druze, Samaritans, and Levantine Christians have just as much Arabian admixture as Levantine Muslims?! How does this benefit you?! You are spreading nonsense and you know it.

[daedal1]

Why do you insist on propagating that Druze, Samaritans, and Levantine Christians have just as much Arabian admixture as Levantine Muslims?! How does this benefit you?! You are spreading nonsense and you know it.

Where did I say that? You can see in the study, that Druze, especially, are intermediate between leb muslims and leb christians, and leb christians are in turn intermediate between druze and cypriots. As far as 'palestinians' go, they aren't even in the running. 'palestinians' from israel cluster with bedouins.

[ariel]

[QUOTE=daedal1;1917092]

Why do you insist on propagating that Druze, Samaritans, and Levantine Christians have just as much Arabian admixture as Levantine Muslims?! How does this benefit you?! You are spreading nonsense and you know it.


she probably just a troll

[ariel]

Where did I say that? You can see in the study, that Druze, especially, are intermediate between leb muslims and leb christians, and leb christians are in turn intermediate between druze and cypriots. As far as 'palestinians' go., they aren't even in the running. 'palestinians' from israel cluster with bedouins.

only muslim palestinians cluster with bedouins.the christians are levantines.

[daedal1]

only muslim palestinians cluster with bedouins.the christians are levantines.

There have been no studies formally comparing palestinian christians yet, but considering the position of druze, I doubt they're as levantine as even the maronites are, for example.

[Maleficent]

Where did I say that? You can see in the study, that Druze, especially, are intermediate between leb muslims and leb christians, and leb christians are in turn intermediate between druze and cypriots. As far as 'palestinians' go, they aren't even in the running. 'palestinians' from israel cluster with bedouins.

LOL @ Palestinians aren't even in the running and clustering with Bedouins.

My father's Dodecad V3 results:
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Mediterranean 31.76
2 West Asian_30.87
3 Southwest_Asian 25.46
4 Northwest_African 3.79
5 West_European 3.13
6 East_African 2.78
7 South_Asian 1.81
8 Neo_African 0.4

Single Population Sharing:
# Population Distance
1 Samaritans 4.56
2 Lebanese 5.26
3 Palestinian 5.84
4 Jordanians 6.99
5 Syrians 9.32
6 Georgia_Jews 10.24
7 Druze 10.26
8 Iraq_Jews 10.98
9 Iranian_Jews 11.67
10 Uzbekistan_Jews 14.12
11 Azerbaiajan_Jews 14.55
12 Cypriots 14.8
13 Morocco_Jews 15.11
14 Egypt 15.92
15 Sephardic_Jews 17.06
16 Kurd 18.76
17 Assyrian 19.41
18 Ashkenazi 19.72
19 Turkish 19.76
20 Bedouin 20.52

He is of Palestinian Christian heritage, and seems to be closest with Samaritans. The Palestinians themselves seem to be closest with Samaritan, Lebanese, Syrian, and Jordanian. Oh look! Bedouin is all the way at the bottom. So much for real Palestinians clustering with Bedouins, since this obviously proves they don't. Your study is bogus and you are a troll, Plutonium.

[Maleficent]

[QUOTE=FaerieQueene;1917109]


she probably just a troll


only muslim palestinians cluster with bedouins.the christians are levantines.

Most likely.

[ariel]

There have been no studies formally comparing palestinian christians yet, but considering the position of druze, I doubt they're as levantine as even the maronites are, for example.

palestinians christians are not the same as paestinians muslims

[daedal1]

Most likely.

This is after you had to lie about the palestinian subjects in the study, being from gaza, for so long?

Some Ashkenazi Jews cluster nearer to Romanians, that must mean all of them do.

[daedal1]

palestinians christians are not the same as paestinians muslims


I never said otherwise, but iranians, cypriots, armenians, etc. are still genetically closer to those muslim palestinians than they are to germans or french.

[ariel]

This is after you had to lie about the palestinian subjects in the study, being from gaza, for so long?

Some Ashkenazi Jews cluster nearer to Romanians, that must mean all of them do.


almost all the palestinians muslims are the same as bedouins.....

[ariel]

I never said otherwise, but iranians, cypriots, armenians, etc. are still genetically closer to those muslim palestinians than they are to germans or french.

you are bored troll.....

[Maleficent]

This is after you had to lie about the palestinian subjects in the study, being from gaza, for so long?

Some Ashkenazi Jews cluster nearer to Romanians, that must mean all of them do.

Okay, maybe they were "from" the Israel area, but they must have originally been from another region of Palestine. So I'm not really lying. You must be really stupid if you believe the average Palestinian clusters the exact same as Bedouins/GulfArabs.

[daedal1]

almost all the palestinians muslims are the same as bedouins.....

They're very close, yes, but FaerieQueene was even denying that, claiming them to be 'gazans' and not 'real palestinians'.

[ariel]

Okay, maybe they were "from" the Israel area, but they must have originally been from another region of Palestine. So I'm not really lying. You must be really stupid if you believe the average Palestinian clusters the exact same as Bedouins/GulfArabs.

muslim palestinians are cluster to saudi and bedouins.

[daedal1]

muslim palestinians are cluster to saudi and bedouins.

Correct on this point. Average Israeli Muslim Arabs aren't related to gazans anymore than they are to west bank palestinians, actually they have more connections with the latter, if anything, since gazans are even smaller in number.

And, no, that study doesn't say that iranians, armenians, etc. cluster closer to germans than they do to palestinians. Only select europeans with west asian, etc. admixture already are closer. Show a single study that has compared these populations directly to demonstrate that case.

[StonyArabia]

^ I doubt the member randomguy123 will cluster with Bedouins/Yemenite Jews, he will cluster with the Lebs and Palis Christian or otherwise, and at best as intermediate between Bedouin/Yemenite Jews and "Levantine" populations. One has to remember that the Negev Bedouins have been assimilated by the Palestinians and this is in very recent times.

[ariel]

^ I doubt the member randomguy123 will cluster with Bedouins/Yemenite Jews, he will cluster with the Lebs and Palis Christian or otherwise, and at best as intermediate between Bedouin/Yemenite Jews and "Levantine" populations. One has to remember that the Negev Bedouins have been assimilated by the Palestinians and this is in very recent times.

lol

keep dreaming

most the muslim palestinians are cluster to saudi and bedouins....

[ariel]

Correct on this point. Average Israeli Muslim Arabs aren't related to gazans anymore than they are to west bank palestinians, actually they have more connections with the latter, if anything, since gazans are even smaller in number.

And, no, that study doesn't say that iranians, armenians, etc. cluster closer to germans than they do to palestinians. Only select europeans with west asian, etc. admixture already are closer. Show a single study that has compared these populations directly to demonstrate that case.

this study say who levantines cluster colser to sardinians and italians

[StonyArabia]

lol

keep dreaming

most the muslim palestinians are cluster to saudi and bedouins....

No because you keep posting a study that has many flaws. So no I am not dreaming because I speak from the facts and from the people who actually got tested. If 23andme, McDonald, Harappa, and Eurogenes all agree that Levantine Muslims and Christians are not much different than each other. Then they are not. Religion does not change your genetics this well known. As anyone can convert from one religion to another.

[ariel]

No because you keep posting a study that has many flaws. So no I am not dreaming because I speak from the facts and from the people who actually got tested. If 23andme, McDonald, Harappa, and Eurogenes all agree that Levantine Muslims and Christians are not much different than each other. Then they are not. Religion does not change your genetics this well known. As anyone can convert from one religion to another.

i posted another study about lebanese christians and muslims

This is odd because typically we don't see this sort of stratification by religion when we are looking at the relative proportions of these lineages - and particularly immigration events."

He told BBC News: "Looking at the same data set, we saw a similar enrichment of lineages coming in from the Arabian Peninsula in the Muslim population which we didn't see [as often] in the Christian population."


http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2008/03/christian-and-muslim-lebanese-do-differ.html

allah yisa3adak

[daedal1]

average Palestinian clusters the exact same as Bedouins/GulfArabs.

If gazans are egyptians, then west bankers are jordanians, who cluster with bedouins.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwBSWN4s9JU

www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/3389.htm

[daedal1]

this study say who levantines cluster colser to sardinians and italians

I said that they're only related to the fringes of europe (i.e. europeans who already have heavy west asian-type ancestry), but those europeans aren't representative of ordinary europeans. Southern Italians, yes, Sardinians, not necessarily.

[Smeagol]

So Cypriots are pure Levantines?

[daedal1]

So Cypriots are pure Levantines?

They may have some minor 'greek' ancestry, but druze/levantine christians appear to have some additional arabian ancestry. The west asian-type ancestry that greeks largely have is closer to the levantine component than the arabian component is, though. Similar to how armenians/assyrians overlap.

[ariel]

I said that they're only related to the fringes of europe (i.e. europeans who already have heavy west asian-type ancestry), but those europeans aren't representative of ordinary europeans. Southern Italians, yes, Sardinians, not necessarily.

when the study say european he mean to central -northen ones.....


stop play with the data

[ariel]

So Cypriots are pure Levantines?

cypriots not pure cyprus ruled by many empires duin the yearss.

the syrian alawites seem to be much closer to the ancient levantins. they were isolated in the mountains of wetern syria.

[daedal1]

when the study say european he mean to central -northen ones.....


stop play with the data

Cypriots (who are the closest to europe) are still about equidistant between tuscans and northern bedouins, and equidistant between n. italians and egyptians+saudis.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ztxlQ68e19Q/TnC0Z0rW6bI/AAAAAAAAEHc/MQny_v-ygqQ/s1600/pca-caucasus.png

[Maleficent]

If gazans are egyptians, then west bankers are jordanians, who cluster with bedouins.

A lot of Gazans actually are recent immigrants from Egypt within the last hundred years or so, in case you didn't know. The majority of the Jordanian population in Jordan is ethnically Palestinian and of Palestinian origin due to unfortunately being kicked out by Israel. West Bankers don't cluster with Bedouins, I already proved they don't by posting my father's results, which you didn't respond to(typical). And no, he's not an outlier.

[StonyArabia]

Ethnic Jordanians are Bedouins and belong to these tribes the Bani Shacker, Howeitat, Attiyah, and Rawallah with smaller number of other Bedouin tribes. There is also two Christian Bedouin tribes that follow the Greek Orthodox and Arab Orthodox church those are the Hijazeen and Akasheh. The majority of Jordanians today are Palestinians who are not the same as these tribes nor have the same culture.

[daedal1]

A lot of Gazans actually are recent immigrants from Egypt within the last hundred years or so, in case you didn't know. The majority of the Jordanian population in Jordan is ethnically Palestinian and of Palestinian origin due to unfortunately being kicked out by Israel. West Bankers don't cluster with Bedouins, I already proved they don't by posting my father's results, which you didn't respond to(typical). And no, he's not an outlier.

And Jordanians do cluster with bedouins, so if jordanians and palestinians are the same people, then they also cluster with bedouins. Can't have it both ways. You didn't prove anything, there are outliers in any population group.

Some Armenians and Georgians are even closer to central europeans than ashkenazi jews are, doesn't make them representative of typical armenians/georgians.

http://i46.tinypic.com/n5n0ox.jpg

[Szegedist]

Bump to my questions, how many Jews see relations to Khazars? or do most think it is anti-semitism?

[Shah-Jehan]

And Jordanians do cluster with bedouins, so if jordanians and palestinians are the same people, then they also cluster with bedouins. Can't have it both ways. You didn't prove anything, there are outliers in any population group.

Some Armenians and Georgians are even closer to central europeans than ashkenazi jews are, doesn't make them representative of typical armenians/georgians.

http://i46.tinypic.com/n5n0ox.jpg

Bedouins are not an ethnicity:picard1:

[daedal1]

Bedouins are not an ethnicity:picard1:

Their ethnicity is 'arab'.

[Shah-Jehan]

Their ethnicity is 'arab'.

Bedouins can be from Jordan to Palestine to the Arabian peninsula...

[daedal1]

Bedouins can be from Jordan to Palestine to the Arabian peninsula...

The bedouins of topic are the negev, who cluster with palestinians and are also close to saudis.

[Shah-Jehan]

The bedouins of topic are the negev, who cluster with palestinians and are also close to saudis.

They cluster with Palestinians because they are in fact Palestinians, but, lead a bedouin lifestyle...Duh, they are close to Saudis because they are from the same region and they, the Muslims Palestinians have a more variation than other groups in Palestine because they are more numerous than others...

[StonyArabia]

The bedouins of topic are the negev, who cluster with palestinians and are also close to saudis.

This why the study is flawed and the Negev Bedouins are recently assimilated by the Palestinians. I have already told you that true Jordanians belong to the tribes I mentioned, and if you don't belong them to them you are not Jordanian. It's these Jordanians that cluster with Bedouins and Arabian populations. The Palestinians really don't they don't have much Southwest Asian admixture it's like in the 20's or so and the same is true of non-ethnic Jordanians who are Palestinians.

[Maleficent]

And Jordanians do cluster with bedouins, so if jordanians and palestinians are the same people, then they also cluster with bedouins. Can't have it both ways. You didn't prove anything, there are outliers in any population group.

Some Armenians and Georgians are even closer to central europeans than ashkenazi jews are, doesn't make them representative of typical armenians/georgians.

I specifically explained that Palestinians and Jordanians are NOT the same people. Real ethnic Jordanians actually are Bedouins. A lot of these studies are using Negev Bedouins who live in Israel as real Palestinians for these studies. Of course I proved something, real Palestinians of the West Bank and Israel cluster exactly how I posted with my father's results.

[daedal1]

I specifically explained that Palestinians and Jordanians are NOT the same people. Real ethnic Jordanians actually are Bedouins. A lot of these studies are using Negev Bedouins who live in Israel as real Palestinians for these studies. Of course I proved something, real Palestinians of the West Bank and Israel cluster exactly how I posted with my father's results.

No, they specifically use palestinians in israel, negev bedouins are sampled separately. Outliers are irrelevant.

[Anglojew]

Bump to my questions, how many Jews see relations to Khazars? or do most think it is anti-semitism?

A lot is motivated by anti-Zionism eg undermining Jewish connection with Israel but from a Jewish perspective it's not really thought about much. As a probable Khazar descendent myself I find it interesting.

[Szegedist]

A lot is motivated by anti-Zionism eg undermining Jewish connection with Israel but from a Jewish perspective it's not really thought about much. As a probably Khazar descendent myself I find it interesting.

You want to hear something funny?

In Hungary, there is a small segment of population, who are Turanists (believe Hungarians are related to Turkic people, including Khazars), but at the same time they are anti-semitic :))

[Shah-Jehan]

A lot is motivated by anti-Zionism eg undermining Jewish connection with Israel but from a Jewish perspective it's not really thought about much. As a probably Khazar descendent myself I find it interesting.

You're Turkic:rolleyes:?

[Anglojew]

All this debate is forgetting that some Jews (Yemenites) also cluster with Arabians but doesn't make them less Jewish. Also, that people cluster with their neighbors sometimes isn't really surprising or new. Palestinians still largely retain Levantine DNA depending in their tribe and region.

[Smeagol]

I think I might be descended from Khazars.

[YeshAtid]

A lot is motivated by anti-Zionism eg undermining Jewish connection with Israel but from a Jewish perspective it's not really thought about much. As a probably Khazar descendent myself I find it interesting.

It's a fallacy

[Anglojew]

You want to hear something funny?

In Hungary, there is a small segment of population, who are Turanists (believe Hungarians are related to Turkic people, including Khazars), but at the same time they are anti-semitic :))

As far as I'm aware Khazars helped found Hungary along with Magyars so they're probably not wrong. They need to embrace this alliance and not react in antipathy to it. I think it's probably similar to the Jewish-Goth connection and Germans' attitude together and I can understand why a related people that refuse to assimilate would be considered suspicious; we see that negativity between Israelis and Palestinians right now.

[Anglojew]

You're Turkic:rolleyes:?

I guess either Turkic or Hunnic or a mixture. I should say I have some middle eastern ancestry too. It only further reinforced my theory that Ashkenazi Jews were formed when Judean settlers intermarried with gothic tribes around crimea and then converted their later rulers (Khazars) to Judaism forming a Khazar-Gothic-Judean hybrid population that inherited the combined traits of all three peoples so excelled in warfare, trade and leadership thus creating the first true master race.

[Szegedist]

As far as I'm aware Khazars helped found Hungary along with Magyars so they're probably not wrong. They need to embrace this alliance and not react in antipathy to it. I think it's probably similar to the Jewish-Goth connection and Germans' attitude together and I can understand why a related people that refuse to assimilate would be considered suspicious; we see that negativity between Israelis and Palestinians right now.

Hungarian tribes also adopted some cultural things from the Khazars (Such as the dual Monarchy, one Spiritual Leader, one military leader). Also there was mixing between Magyar ruling elite and some Khazars.

For example, first known leader of Hungarians, Lebedias had a Khazar wife, and he was thought to be part Khazar himself. There is also some speculation whether Árpád's wife was Khazar princess, and that would make every Hungarian King of the Árpád dynasty to be part Khazar too.

Also


The distinction appears to have survived the collapse of the Khazarian empire. Later Russian chronicles, commenting on the role of the Khazars in the magyarization of Hungary, refer to them as "White Oghurs" and Magyars as "Black Ogurs"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#The_people



And


The proto-Hungarian Pontic tribe, while perhaps threatening Khazaria as early as 839 (Sarkel), developed its institutional models, such as the dual rule of a ceremonial kende-kündü and a gyula administering practical and military administration, under Khazar tutelage. A dissident group of Khazars, the Qabars, joined the Hungarians in their flight from the Pechenegs as they moved into Pannonia. Elements within the Hungarian population can be viewed as perpetuating Khazar traditions as a successor state. Byzantine sources refer to Hungary as Western Tourkia in contrast to Khazaria, Eastern Tourkia. The gyula line produced the kings of medieval Hungary through descent from Árpád, while the Qabars retained their traditions longer, and were known as “black Hungarians” (fekete magyarság). Some archeological evidence from Čelarevo suggests the Qabars practiced Judais

[Szegedist]

The Khazar argument is also sometimes used against Hungarians.

I have seen people go as far as saying "Hungarians were sent to Pannonia by Khazar Jew zionists to make trouble for Slavs, Germanics" :laugh:

[Anglojew]

The Khazar argument is also sometimes used against Hungarians.

I have seen people go as far as saying "Hungarians were sent to Pannonia by Khazar Jew zionists to make trouble for Slavs, Germanics" :laugh:

That might be why Hungarian Nationalists are trying to disassociate themselves from Jews.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

A lot is motivated by anti-Zionism eg undermining Jewish connection with Israel but from a Jewish perspective it's not really thought about much. As a probable Khazar descendent myself I find it interesting.
I just find it interesting, but I think that's the case when it comes to arabs but I don't see what difference it makes. The people with the least right to a land always spend the most time justifying it. Arabs have no right to anything but a small bit of the horn of africa if we are going to look at acient ethnogenesis.

I also am interested to track down more of where the non-jewish khazarians went and of course even more than that the thracians.

[Anglojew]

I just find it interesting, but I think that's the case when it comes to arabs but I don't see what difference it makes. The people with the least right to a land always spend the most time justifying it. Arabs have no right to anything but a small bit of the horn of africa if we are going to look at acient ethnogenesis.

I also am interested to track down more of where the non-jewish khazarians went and of course even more than that the thracians.

I'd say the non-Jewish Khazars got absorbed by various steppe peoples including in Kazakhstan today. Thracian's I'm not sure about. You should make a thread about it?

[Szegedist]

That might be why Hungarian Nationalists are trying to disassociate themselves from Jews.

Not really. I would say a big part of Hungarian nationalists have no problem with loyal Jews. The Jews that are hated by nationalists are usually the liberal or communist kind.

But Hungarian nationalists also hate Hungarian post-communists, so its nothing personal against Jews.


Also, disassociate is irrelevant, you can't change history.

[blogen]

Not really. I would say a big part of Hungarian nationalists have no problem with loyal Jews. The Jews that are hated by nationalists are usually the liberal or communist kind.

But Hungarian nationalists also hate Hungarian post-communists, so its nothing personal against Jews.
Also, disassociate is irrelevant, you can't change history.

This is euphemism onto the antisemitism. Are they not commie/liberal/antihungarian Jews in Hungary? And do not refer to the imaginary good (nonleftist and patriot) Jew, nobody saw them yet. The antisemitism is natural and inevitable in Hungary.

[Szegedist]

This is euphemism onto the antisemitism. Are they not commie/liberal/antihungarian Jews in Hungary? And do not refer to the imaginary good (nonleftist and patriot) Jew, nobody saw them yet. The antisemitism is natural and inevitable in Hungary.

It's true, that most of the prominent Jews in Hungary today are left wing liberals, such as Tamás Bauer, Mátyás Eörsi, Iván Pető, Tibor Várkonyi, Imre Kertész, etc and Jews were also heavily overrepresented among communists and ÁVH leadership in the past.

Imaginary good Jew?
Who was Miklós Radnóti? Ede Teller?

And you are wrong if you think every Jew in Hungary was a communist, liberal anti-Hungarian. I know for a fact there are still some Jews in Hungary (no famous ones) who are not anti-Hungarian.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

This is euphemism onto the antisemitism. Are they not commie/liberal/antihungarian Jews in Hungary? And do not refer to the imaginary good (nonleftist and patriot) Jew, nobody saw them yet. The antisemitism is natural and inevitable in Hungary.

Of course you can be liberal without being commie. It's only in the east near russia this seems to be a big problem.

[blogen]

Imaginary good Jew?
Who was Miklós Radnóti?

Member of the illegal Party of the Communists of Hungary.


Ede Teller?

A Jewish-Hungarian origin American scientist.


And you are wrong if you think every Jew in Hungary was a communist, liberal anti-Hungarian. I know for a fact there are still some Jews in Hungary (no famous ones) who are not anti-Hungarian.

Sure. This is usual fallacy. For example the Hungarians saved many Jews at the time of the Jewish holocaust, but how many Hungarians saved the Jews at the time of the Soviet colonial regime? How many kulaks, priests, teachers, workers, etc. did they harbour?

Zero.

And this not exaggerating, we do not know one single story from good Jews, who would have saved Hungarians in the time of the communism. There are no Jewish Wallenbergs, or a single Righteous Among the Jews. They were their killers and their pursuers. They were the collaborant officials and beneficiaries of the Soviet colonial system, who never helped the Hungarians pursued by them.

[Szegedist]

Wallenberg was Swedish envoy.

If you want to use Hungarian example, use Vilmos Apor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilmos_Apor


As for Teller:

"...Új jeles felfedezésem, miszerint egy nyelv van, s az a magyar." (Paks, September , 1991)

"amennyiben nem Ady teremtő nyelvén ismertem volna meg a világot, akkor aligha vittem volna többre egy átlagos középiskolai tanárnál"


An anti-Hungarian does not speak like this.

[blogen]

As for Teller:
"...Új jeles felfedezésem, miszerint egy nyelv van, s az a magyar." (Paks, September , 1991)
"amennyiben nem Ady teremtő nyelvén ismertem volna meg a világot, akkor aligha vittem volna többre egy átlagos középiskolai tanárnál"
An anti-Hungarian does not speak like this.

He was not anti-Hungarian, but he was an American scientist, so he was not a Hungarian Jew. He was a Jewish-Hungarian origin origin American and we talked about the Jews in Hungary.

[blogen]

Of course you can be liberal without being commie. It's only in the east near russia this seems to be a big problem.

The liberalism is an anti-conservative leftist ideology, so liberalism, socialism, communism, these are grades only. Since* there are no conservativism in US (the North-American conservatives live in Canada or in the Bahamas (http://www.royal.gov.uk/)), the political palette is from the left's factions in the US. For example the American "conservative" = protestant moderate leftist in Europe.

*After the end of the civil war in the thirteen colonies the conservatives emigrated to the loyalist part of the Empire (the considerable part of the inhabitants of Canadian Kingston the American conservatives' descendant for example).

[Anglojew]

This is euphemism onto the antisemitism. Are they not commie/liberal/antihungarian Jews in Hungary? And do not refer to the imaginary good (nonleftist and patriot) Jew, nobody saw them yet. The antisemitism is natural and inevitable in Hungary.

As a patriotic Australian Jew I'm sure that they exist.

[blogen]

As a patriotic Australian Jew I'm sure that they exist.

I dont know what is the situation in Australia. I wrote about the "Hungarian" Jews only.

[Anglojew]

I dont know what is the situation in Australia. I wrote about the "Hungarian" Jews only.

I think the problem is that Jews feel they can't join Hungarian Nationalist parties because they're not considered welcome.

[Prince Carlo]

Iraqi Jews are the purest Levantines. OHHHHH.
Generally speaking other Mizrahi are also quite pure with only very little of Caucasus like ancestry.

[blogen]

I think the problem is that Jews feel they can't join Hungarian Nationalist parties because they're not considered welcome.

Nationalist parties? The only nationalistic party is the JOBBIK, but even their nationalism weak. The Hungarian "right" is not nationalist, but right radical (JOBBIK) or leftist populist (FIDESZ). And the FIDESZ pursues an absolute Jewish friendly politics, to see them several times in a synagogue than in a church or on a football game. And the right parties do not reject the Jews, since these parties have very few Jewish members. This deficiency is uncomfortable for the parties. And for example the few Jewish members of the FIDESZ joined in the liberal times yet (originally they were liberal populists and now "right" populists). After all the right and the Jews are two separate concepts.

These Jews in Hungary made a choice already, they are internationalist and they were their parents and their grandparents too. This is a strange phenomenon and hard to understand how takes shape a determined clique (ghetto mentality?) on ethnoreligious and political base like the Jews in Hungary.