What are Ashkenazis mostly descended from?

[Sikeliot]

This is related to the other thread but with choices.

[SkyBurn]

I think it depends on the community. I would say that Polish Jews would have a different composition to Russian Jews (different proportions of Slavic, Italian, Germanic, and Spanish admixture).

Overall, I would say that some individuals would have more (or much more) than 50% ancient Israelite, and some would have less (or much less).

[Sikeliot]

Judging by Ashkenazi genetics, one of two things must be true.

1) You guys coincidentally have a similar mixture to southern Italians due to similar admixture components,
or
2) You are mostly descended from southern Italian converts, with enough ancient Israelite in you that you have a very slightly higher SW Asian score (but, interestingly, everything else is fairly constant).

[StonyArabia]

Greco-Roman converts mixed with Israelites

[Sikeliot]

Greco-Roman converts

So essentially, Roman-era Sicilians, Calabrese, Neapolitans who converted.

Their genetics do not support them being primarily Greek converts, since their SW Asian score is substantially higher, and Caucasus and Northern European too low.

[StonyArabia]

So essentially, Roman-era Sicilians, Calabrese, Neapolitans who converted.

Their genetics do not support them being primarily Greek converts, since their SW Asian score is substantially higher, and Caucasus and Northern European too low.


Southern Italians basically what I meant, with some Israelite bloodlines of course.

[SkyBurn]

So essentially, Roman-era Sicilians, Calabrese, Neapolitans who converted.

Their genetics do not support them being primarily Greek converts, since their SW Asian score is substantially higher, and Caucasus and Northern European too low.

The SW Asian is tempered by some Northern DNA (Slavs and Germanics) as well as a bit of Western from Spain, but that is more minor. Those pull the average to Sicily.

[7eleven]

I think they are mostly of Sicilian and Southern Italian descent to be honest. Here is something Polako did for me:
http://imageshack.us/a/img571/7167/spamap.png
I am half Jewish and I have a point in southern Italy. Does anyone know what region that is?

[Sikeliot]

I am half Jewish and I have a point in southern Italy. Does anyone know what region that is?

Apulia.

[Mark]

Another good reference point might be looking at what the average Ashkenazi Jew scores on a K36 run.

[Sikeliot]

Here is K=12

Ashkenazis, Sicilians in that order

Atlanto-Baltic: 30.1, 31.3
West Asian: 23.4, 23.5
Southern: 43.1, 42.8

[Formozgan]

Khazars, Egyptians, Arabians, Mesopotamians, Mediterraneans and various central and other eastern european.

[Anglojew]

Levantine-European hybrid population.

[Smeagol]

Judging by Ashkenazi genetics, one of two things must be true.

1) You guys coincidentally have a similar mixture to southern Italians due to similar admixture components,
or
2) You are mostly descended from southern Italian converts, with enough ancient Israelite in you that you have a very slightly higher SW Asian score (but, interestingly, everything else is fairly constant).

That doesn't make any sense. How would south Italians, and Israelites create a mix that clusters with south Italians? Ashkenazis have a significant amount of German, mixed with South Italian, and Israelite.

[Smeagol]

Khazars, Egyptians, Arabians,

Genetic evidence doesn't support that.

[Smaug]

From the mixture between Israelite women with native Baltic/Germanic/Slavic males.

[Pjeter Pan]

Is there a such thing as an original Jew anymore, Jews are way to mixed.

[Wolf]

Is there a such thing as an original Jew anymore, Jews are way to mixed.

What is an "original Jew"?

[Pjeter Pan]

What is an "original Jew"?
Idk the ones from the Old Testament

[Wolf]

Idk the ones from the Old Testament

According to the "Old Testament" the Israelites were descendants from Abraham who was born in Ur (Mesopotamia). Are original Jews in fact Mesopotamians?

[Pjeter Pan]

According to the "Old Testament" the Israelites are descendants from Abraham who was born in Ur (Mespotamia). Are original Jews Mesopotamians?
Jews during jesus's time?

[Wolf]

Jews during jesus's time?

Descendants of the Israelites (Judah, Benjamin, partially Levi) and converts.

[Smeagol]

According to the "Old Testament" the Israelites were descendants from Abraham who was born in Ur (Mesopotamia). Are original Jews in fact Mesopotamians?

Biblical myth, but anyway, ancient Mesopotamians were most similar to Caucasians, and Iranians. modern Mesopotamians are Bedouins.

[Roy]

Still mainly from Ancient Israelites in my oppinion. These (ancient ones) were of mixed Phoenician - Mesopotamian stock according to many scientists. The rest is Greco-Roman and Germanic, rather rarely Slavic (Polish fully Ashkenazis included). Number of converts coiuld be exagerrated but shouldn't be overlooked.


Biblical myth, but anyway, ancient Mesopotamians were most similar to Caucasians, and Iranians. modern Mesopotamians are Bedouins.

Not Myth. There are archaeological evidences which clearly validate it.

[Smeagol]

Still mainly from Ancient Israelites in my oppinion. These (ancient ones) were of mixed Phoenician - Mesopotamian stock according to many scientists. The rest is Greco-Roman and Germanic, rather rarely Slavic (Polish fully Ashkenazis included).

No way they can be mostly Israelite, they don't cluster with any Middle Easterners.

[StonyArabia]

Biblical myth, but anyway, ancient Mesopotamians were most similar to Caucasians, and Iranians. modern Mesopotamians are Bedouins.

Ancient Mesopotamians were not similar to Caucasians but Anatolians. However there has always been Iranian influence. Correct majority of today's Mespotamians are Bedouins, and this was a result of the Mongol invasions. I believe I made thread about how the Mongols were responsible for the demographic change in Iraq and Eastern Syria.

[Smeagol]

Ancient Mesopotamians were not similar to Caucasians but Anatolians. However there has always been Iranian influence. Correct majority of today's Mespotamians are Bedouins, and this was a result of the Mongol invasions. I believe I made thread about how the Mongols were responsible for the demographic change in Iraq and Eastern Syria.

Ok, they were more similar to Anatolians. Either way, modern Mesopotamians don't have much to do with the ancients.

[7eleven]

Khazar pride world wide bitches

[Roy]

No way they can be mostly Israelite, they don't cluster with any Middle Easterners.

Because of Germanic input. They lack it = it is simple. The ancient were different and of Mesopotamian origin - possibly collected from Mespotamian artisans and immigrants mixed with Phoenicians/Philistines which rebelled and gathered together in Judea. I remember watching good documentary in National Geographic about it but now I can't recall the title.
Some article:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebland.html

[StonyArabia]

Ok, they were more similar to Anatolians. Either way, modern Mesopotamians don't have much to do with the ancients.


Well it depends on which ethnic group. The Assyrians and Mandeans are modern Mesopotamians but they are not of Arabian stock and are native to the region.

[Smeagol]

Because of Germanic input. They lack it = it is simple. The ancient were different and of Mesopotamian origin - possibly collected from Mespotamian artisans and immigrants mixed with Phoenicians which rebelled and gathered together in Judea.

Well either way, Ashkenazi Jews are slightly more European, than Near Eastern.
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg607/scaled.php?server=607&filename=euroadmix.png&res=medium

[SkyBurn]

Still mainly from Ancient Israelites in my oppinion. These (ancient ones) were of mixed Phoenician - Mesopotamian stock according to many scientists. The rest is Greco-Roman and Germanic, rather rarely Slavic (Polish fully Ashkenazis included). Number of converts coiuld be exagerrated but shouldn't be overlooked.


Not mainly.

And much Slavic input came from the rapes and pillaging of Jewish communities over the centuries (especially in Russia). I've noticed that Slavs try and deny any Slavic cultural/genetic influence amongst their Jews.

[Wolf]

Not Myth. There are archaeological evidences which clearly validate it.

According to the facts, the Israelites were a mix between Canaanites and Hebrews (who were probably also Canaanites). So, they were of local origin.

[Windischer]

except the ashkenazim arent homogeneous group, there are the western ones (ashkenazim proper) and eastern ones (assimilated knaanim). ashkenazi culture, language (yiddish) and ashkenazi migrants have spread among knaanim in high middle ages; by late middle ages knaanic language was completely replaced by yiddish, which absorbed a lot of slavic loanwords this way (knaanic was a west-slavic dialectal group).

(i think i have already written this somewhere in this forum)

[Aquafina]

Ancient Israelites.

[SSlava]

Not mainly.

And much Slavic input came from the rapes and pillaging of Jewish communities over the centuries (especially in Russia). I've noticed that Slavs try and deny any Slavic cultural/genetic influence amongst their Jews.
I think, someone from my ancestors or their relatives banged the Jew (not obligatory rape), here therefore I with them have matches))

[Aquafina]

Not mainly.

And much Slavic input came from the rapes and pillaging of Jewish communities over the centuries (especially in Russia). I've noticed that Slavs try and deny any Slavic cultural/genetic influence amongst their Jews.

You are similar to Greeks, right? That's where you clustered on that plot.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Judging by Ashkenazi genetics, one of two things must be true.

1) You guys coincidentally have a similar mixture to southern Italians due to similar admixture components,
or
2) You are mostly descended from southern Italian converts, with enough ancient Israelite in you that you have a very slightly higher SW Asian score (but, interestingly, everything else is fairly constant).

What's now called ashkhenazi jew is just "jews who didn't go to spain or stay in africa". Meaning they got hellenized a bit, moved to rome as slaves, then later went to byzantine empire. At that time it's the only place in the world they could own land and still practice their religion. That's the point a lot of khazarians got soaked into jewry but most of the real khazarian jews went to rheinland and those seem to be the large brains with high IQs, many of whom later came to USA. Many other khazarians got wiped out in the uprisings in lithuania. So they have picked up DNA everywhere they went and a kind of subgroup from crimean area (the samaritan semites are a subgroup, too, that were initially unrelated to jews at all but they are fairly mixed in now). I did leave a few things out like poland and france or it would be too long and involved but that should be the important stuff.

[Sikeliot]

What's now called ashkhenazi jew is just "jews who didn't go to spain or stay in africa". Meaning they got hellenized a bit, moved to rome as slaves, then later went to byzantine empire.

Wtf? That's not what happened at all. The Romans deported them from Israel, they ended up in Italy, and then from there spread out in different directions. Nothing to do with the Byzantines.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Byzantine time is much later than the time in Rome but I was simplifying slightly. Even before Rome they had become largely hellenized and there were many in Greece, but in the last part of byzantine empire jewish people could buy venetian citizenship and once they had that they were entitled to settle anywhere in byzantine empire, and even got a tax break. So as you can imagine they flooded to Constantinople and Athens in hordes. Lots of them moved into Turkey, but many dispersed at that time.

[Fire Haired]

Globe13 aust dna results of Ashkenazis click here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2) for results from 100's of other populations
Med:37.8
West asian: 22.4
Southwest asian: 20.6
North Euro(Paleoithic hunter gather Europeans): 16.7
East African:0.9
East asian:0.7
Siberian:0.5
Artic:0.2
Australasian:0.2

The ones under 1% except for east African probably mean nothing

Globe13 aust dna results of all 700 samartians (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSamarit ans&ei=W5wyUo-MCcX5qwGdnYCABQ&usg=AFQjCNGEcRFZCrg0oW4i2EaG2NJ-6mo5rQ&sig2=tky-N4UYlStfWP0V_2Us5g&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aWM) of Isreal and Palistine.
Southwest asian: 41.3
west asian:28.8
Med:28.4
Australasian:0.1

Globe13 aust dna results of Druze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze) who come from Isreal, Syria, and Lebanon
west asian: 36.7
med:30.4
southwest asian: 30
east african: 1.2
North Euro:0.6
West African: 0.5
Australasian: 0.4
East asian: 0.1

Globe13 aust dna results of Palestinians
southwest asian: 36.4
west asian: 29.2
med: 25.6
east african: 4.5
North Euro: 0.7
west African: 2.7
South asian: 0.6
Paleo African: 0.1
Australasian: 0.1

Germans globe13 aust dna results
North Euro(Paleoithic hunter gather European arrive over 30,000ybp): 59.2
Med(arrived in Neloithic so spread of farming mainly 9,000-6,000ybp): 29.2
West Asian(Arrived mainly in Neloithic 9,000-6,000ybp maybe partilly in bronze age starting 5,000ybp): 7.3
Southwest asian(arrived in Neloithic from 9,000-6,000ybp): 3.6
Australasian: 0.1

Greeks globe13 aust dna results
Med Neolithic (9,000ybp for Greece it was one of the main starting points for Europe): 37.7
NOrth Euro( Paleolithic Euro arrivedover 30,000ybp): 24.2
west asian(some maybe 5-0% is Neloithic rest of Greco Roman and other inter marriage): 22.9
Southwest asian(some around 5-10% Neloithic 9,000-6,000ybp rest Greco Roman and other inter marriage): 15.1
east asian: 0.1
Siberian: 0.1

Ashkenazis obviously have kept alot of ancient Jewish blood. Palestine and Samartians are the closest we have as examples of their ancient Jewish ancestors. But who knows maybe Arab invasion effect the southwest Asian but doubt it since Samaritans only breed with each other. I dont think Germans were the Europeans Ash inter married with. It seems like they inter married with a group of Europeans with alot of med over 40% and west Asian over 15% kind of like Greeks and southeast Europeans. Overall pretty much all of their north euro is European inter marriage so about 16% right there about 10-15% of the med is European inter marriage. and the reason why west Asian is a little higher than southwest Asian is also from non Jewish inter marriage maybe with Europeans. It is hard to say if they are more European or from ancient Jews. My best guess would be a little more from ancient Jews.

I always though Jews were like 100% European because they look completely white. But if u look at Samaritans so do they and they have no traces at all of European blood they come straight from Israel. They actulley used to be Jews its a long story and their mentioned in the new testament like the story of the good Samaritan.

Samaritans during passover
http://www.bibleplaces.com/images12/Samaritan-elders-in-prayers-before-Passover-sacrifice,-tb041106638-bibleplaces.jpghttp://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-9/photos/1359094123-the-samaritan-passover-sacrifice-on-mount-gerizim_1748529.jpghttp://rsc.byu.edu/sites/default/files/Seely%207%20Passover%20Image%20copy.jpg










Red haired Smartian boy with freckles makes me think maybe not all Jewish red hair is from euro inter marriage
http://static2.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/600-0/photos/1303134632-samaritans-passover-sacrifice-at-mount-grizim_662410.jpg

Jews and Samartians arguing if anything the European Jew is the darkest skinned.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRP4A7UaMHw7o1QEDy9cJL4VoLbrm9ev Mbxj45PKzuRZ3esfqYj

[Maleficent]

Samaritan Average According To EUtest:
45.47 East_Med
27 Middle_Eastern
13.24 West_Asian
12.58 West_Med
0.92 East_African
0.73 Atlantic
0.01 North-Central_Euro
0.01 South_Baltic
0 East_Euro
0 East_Asian
0 Siberian
0 West_African

Ashkenazi Average According To EUtest:
27.65 East_Med
14.08 West_Med
13.96 Middle_Eastern
11.61 West_Asian
10.01 Atlantic
9.73 North-Central_Euro
5.39 South_Baltic
4.95 East_Euro
0.8 East_African
0.62 South_Asian
0.62 East_Asian
0.51 Siberian
0.08 West_African

^^Notice the Ashkenazis scoring half as much Levantine component(East_Med) as the Samaritans, and also roughly half as much Arabian component(Middle_Eastern). They are definitely Half-Ancient Israelites, mixed with varying degrees of Greco-Roman, Slavic, and Germanic.

Source: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQS1lQYUZIVlNmTlk/preview?pli=1

[Philo]

So essentially, Roman-era Sicilians, Calabrese, Neapolitans who converted.

Their genetics do not support them being primarily Greek converts, since their SW Asian score is substantially higher, and Caucasus and Northern European too low.
I agree with this. I think

You guys coincidentally have a similar mixture to southern Italians due to similar admixture components,
Is true.


Not mainly.

And much Slavic input came from the rapes and pillaging of Jewish communities over the centuries (especially in Russia). I've noticed that Slavs try and deny any Slavic cultural/genetic influence amongst their Jews.
Not supported by genetics.