Hairy & Anthropology

[Brynhild]

So, who is the hairiest by definition - and I believe it to be a much more complex answer than would be first believed. For the record, my dad was Southern European, with a mix of Northern, and he hardly had any body hair at all. On the other hand, one of my uncles (who was also a Med) looked like an ape. I'm not at all sure this definition would come down to race alone. Constructive opinion would be appreciated. :)

[Tabiti]

From that what I've seen Caucasian nations are the most hairy ones.
However, body hair seems to be mostly individual, not racial trait.

I'm moderate hairy (legs and arms), with quite thin but visible hairs, because they're dark. Same goes for my mother. My father is unable to grow thick beard and has almost no chest hair. All the three of us have dark brown and soft straight hairs. My bf is the same case - hairy legs, but less hair cover on chest and arms. Can't grow thick beard as well. Hair is brown, straight and coarse.

[Lutiferre]

I have hair on my head. Trying to get rid of it, though...

Just kidding. It's been growing for long now. I'm longhaired. When I can grow a proper beard, I'll look proper.

[Puddle of Mudd]

I have hair on my head. Trying to get rid of it, though...

Just kidding. It's been growing for long now. I'm longhaired. When I can grow a proper beard, I'll look proper.

Are you going for the Jesus-look by any chance?

[Bard]

Imho mediterraneans are the most hairy people in europe expecially spanish and south italians.

[Inese]

However, body hair seems to be mostly individual, not racial trait..

I'm moderate hairy (legs and arms), with quite thin but visible hairs, because they're dark.
Hm yes i think that is right it has not much to do with ethnicity or dark and light traits. I have blonde body hairs and many of them at the arms. They are very light blonde but longer and they are more ---- many people i know who have brown hairs on the arm have not so many hairs there!! :rolleyes2: I am very lucky that i have blonde hair because when i had a darker color of my hairs i had to shave me on my arms O.o

Here i was posting a photo of my arm and they are more as normal, that is my view. But ok i can do nothing and i life with it it is no big problem.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=72364&postcount=106

[Comte Arnau]

Imho mediterraneans are the most hairy people in europe expecially spanish and south italians.

It'd be interesting to see some study on it, to verify whether it is about quantity or visibility, since dark hair on light skin is pretty visible.

[Stefan]

Technically aren't Australoids the hairiest? Them and proto-eurasians like the Ainu probably. If you mean Europeans specifically, I would say it is most prevalent in the southwest and dwindles the farther you go North and East. So pretty much countries like Spain, France, England, Italy, and parts of Germany. Then again, my father is Spanish and French and he can't grow hair too easily. My mom's side of the family are very Northern European(Germany with some English) with what seems to be a very Keltic-Nordic influence and they are VERY hairy(including myself.)

[Goidelic]

Well, the hairiest person I've ever seen before was a man of all Gaelic Irish ancestry. He was basically a werewolf. :D;)

I'd classify as Littorid & Keltic Nordid. ;) Hairiness isn't unheard of & uncommon for Northern Europeans. Although most think Middle Easterners are that hairy. :p

[Bridie]

Technically aren't Australoids the hairiest? Nope. Australoids aren't very hairy at all. Seems to go hand in hand with low levels of musculature in Australoid males. As we all know by now... high testosterone = hairy, muscly men!!!! :thumb001:

[Lutiferre]

Nope. Australoids aren't very hairy at all. Seems to go hand in hand with low levels of musculature in Australoid males. As we all know by now... high testosterone = hairy, muscly men!!!! :thumb001:
Or, high sensitivity to testosterone. I think different people need different levels of it to get the same "effect".

[Bridie]

^ yep.

[Brännvin]

As we all know by now... high testosterone = hairy, muscly men!!!! :thumb001:

Chips and bulshit.. :D

I don't think it is. I barely have any body hair, but have a crazy sex drive, and can put on muscle mass incredibly easy if i want, when I was a teenager around 14-17 yrs playing ice hockey and practicing swimming I had it.

I'd like to see if there is some official documentation on this subject though....

[Bridie]

I barely have any body hair,
Don't worry, mate... you can fix that....


http://www.onestopfunshop.co.uk/ekmps/shops/atmosphere/images/22413_-_chest_wig%5Bekm%5D279x300%5Bekm%5D.jpg

:thumb001:



I'd like to see if there is some official documentation on this subject though....Well, that's a bit like asking to see official documentation on whether or not progesterone is involved in the regulation of the menstrual cycle...

You can just look it up... not hard to find info on it.

[Brännvin]

Really? no, it's not a rule ;). It is about androgen receptors which is set on your genetics.

Androgen receptor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_receptor)

[Fortis in Arduis]

Nope. Australoids aren't very hairy at all. Seems to go hand in hand with low levels of musculature in Australoid males. As we all know by now... high testosterone = hairy, muscly men!!!! :thumb001:

Is hairyness not associated with baldness also?

There is no male beauty. :(

[Mesrine]

Is hairyness not associated with baldness also?

In my case, yes. It started at 20 or 22. :D

[Guapo]

Is hairyness not associated with baldness also?

There is no male beauty. :(

It is actually.The hairier you get, the more hair you lose on your head. Also, premature greying doesn't lead to balding so they say.

[Bridie]

Really? no, it's not a rule . It is about androgen receptors which is set on your genetics.
Whichever way you look at it, body hair growth is controlled via the influences of androgens (of which, testosterone is one). The more testosterone received, the greater the incidence of body hair. Yes, receptivity to the hormone must be present for the hormone to take effect, otherwise it will just be like water off a ducks back.

Everything to do with your physiology is "set on" your genetics... and that includes hormone production/regulation and the number and efficiency of receptor sites in your body.



Is hairyness not associated with baldness also?
It is indeed. :p Baldness on the head is associated with high testosterone levels also. So really, it's a sign of virility.



There is no male beauty. :(There is so! :thumb001: But men aren't supposed to be "pretty" like women. ;)

[Fortis in Arduis]

There is so! :thumb001: But men aren't supposed to be "pretty" like women. ;)

Beauty is a reflection of the soul.

[Bridie]

Beauty is a reflection of the soul.True. :) And this is why there are different standards for feminine and masculine beauty. What's beautiful in a woman is repulsive in a man and vice versa. (< I just wanted to make that comment in response to your rep comment. :))

[Phlegethon]

Also, premature greying doesn't lead to balding so they say.

Then there's hope for me. ;)

[SilverFish]

Wanna see hairy? This is what I call a celtic thigh. :D

I can even post my chest hair if I want to.

Here's the thing, I had them since I was 16. Beard at the same time too.

[Angantyr]

Nope. Australoids aren't very hairy at all. Seems to go hand in hand with low levels of musculature in Australoid males. As we all know by now... high testosterone = hairy, muscly men!!!! :thumb001:

I have elevated levels of testosterone. I am not particularly hairy nor muscled...nor am I aggressive or overly preoccupied with sex...and I am definitely not balding.

[Sabinae]

Although Caucasoids seem to be appreciated as hairier, I do believe body hair is an "individual" trait. It is also commonly appreciated that blondes have more body hair than dark haired persons.

I have few body hair, and I'm being grateful for that. It doesnt give me such a big headache when waxing. It has a light colour, a tendency towards blonde.

[Phlegethon]

While other Romanian girls don't really know where to stop shaving. ;)

[Sabinae]

While other Romanian girls don't really know where to stop shaving. ;)

Shaving would be bad.... I prefer waxing, leaves the skin all over, very smooth and pleasant to touch!;)

[Phlegethon]

God shave the Queen! (And stop touching yourself!)

[Radojica]

It is actually.The hairier you get, the more hair you lose on your head.

Feck it then :(

[Phlegethon]

Skinhead! Skinhead! Oi! Oi! Oi!

[Truth Seeker]

I tried to look for a hairiness map but all I could find was the blondism hair map. What did the anthropologists have to say about this? I got called werewolf from kids in school. That is kinda of my nickname from some people. I need to know where this is coming from. I have hair all over the back of my hands. My brother is very hairy too but not as hairy as me.

[Jarl]

Nordics are said to be hairy. I guess Cro-Magnids too. While Baltids, Lappids and more Eastern boreal types are not so much.

[Murphy]

Jarl's mother.

[Agrippa]

I tried to look for a hairiness map but all I could find was the blondism hair map. What did the anthropologists have to say about this? I got called werewolf from kids in school. That is kinda of my nickname from some people. I need to know where this is coming from. I have hair all over the back of my hands. My brother is very hairy too but not as hairy as me.

As I said in another context already, the hairist Europids are around the Caucasus and from there, almost regardless of where you go, the hairiness decreases.

Armenoids and Iranids are among the hairist people in the world.

In Europe Eastern Mediterranids close to that area are hairy, Dinarids, Alpinids if being from the Dinarid-related populations in particular.

Osteuropids the least, the stronger the Mongoloid tendency, the less hair.

So if having to name a type, its quite clearly Dinarid and those Alpinoids and Mediterranids in the areas close to the Dinarids or with a significant input.

South Eastern Europe is the hairier part, the rest being more average with the great individual variation, probably with the exception of the Osteuropid/Baltised, Lappoid areas and the more hairy Cromagnoids of the North West.

[Pallantides]

Of Europeans I think Southern Europeans are the hariest and Northern Europeans the least.

[Ibericus]

I would say it's pretty much the same everywhere

[Agrippa]

Of Europeans I think Southern Europeans are the hariest and Northern Europeans the least.

Iberian Mediterranids are not as hairy as South Eastern Europeans f.e., so its not general North South pattern, especially if considering the more Cromagnoid areas of the North West too.

[Truth Seeker]

I was wondering if I am an Upper Palaeolithic surviver of the Brunn type. Can a Brunn be hairy?

[Treffie]

Iberian Mediterranids are not as hairy as South Eastern Europeans f.e., so its not general North South pattern, especially if considering the more Cromagnoid areas of the North West too.

Wouldn't climate have played a part in a certain ethnicity's hairiness, esp noting that hair is a natural defence against the cold?

[Pallantides]

Wouldn't climate have played a part in a certain ethnicity's hairiness, esp noting that hair is a natural defence against the cold?

Well the people in the most northern parts of Northern Europe are often the least hairy.

[Treffie]

Well the people in the most northern parts of Northern Europe are often the least hairy.

Theyz tuff peepl! :thumb001:

[Murphy]

Jarl's mother.

I would just like to note that Jarl's mother is in reality a lovely woman and is in no-way more hairy than average.

[Agrippa]

I was wondering if I am an Upper Palaeolithic surviver of the Brunn type. Can a Brunn be hairy?

As I said, North Western Cromagnoids can be quite hairy too.


Wouldn't climate have played a part in a certain ethnicity's hairiness, esp noting that hair is a natural defence against the cold?

Pallantides is right. Humans never had enough her to be a real protection, on the other hand, they might sweat more and even worse their beard might freece leading to the undercooling of facial parts.

Europids are generally no cold form, even less so the more typically Europid and progressive variants, they all have too much prominent facial parts as well, adding to that a strong beard, it won't be a real advantage. A bigger, prominent nose allows to warming up the air and making it moistier, also getting germs out of it, so it is a signifciant advantage in all dry climates, even more so if the air is thin or colder.

But on the other hand, if its as prominent as in Nordid, Dinarid, Armenoid, Indid etc., its also unprotected and might suffer from frostbites, like bigger ears etc. too.

Now if you look at the typical cold types, they approach usually more round and "pancake like" faces with a huge face in which is a flat nose. The flat nose has to be even longer to reach the same effect as the prominent Europid one, but being at the same time less vulnerable to frostbites and undercooling.

As you can see, the hairiness is definitely NO advantage in a cold climate and Europids are generally no cold adapted race. Those which might be, the Borealised ones, have a Mongoloid tendency or input, therefore deviate from the standard (Eastbaltid and Lappid) and those are the least hairy...

[Truth Seeker]

What do you think about this guy? Would he have ancestors from the Caucasus or maybe he has a throwback of something else? I did a google search for hairy but don't do it with safe search off.

http://www.theluxuryspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Hairy-Man-thumb-400x366.jpg

[Murphy]

Bell curve.

[Jarl]

I was wondering if I am an Upper Palaeolithic surviver of the Brunn type. Can a Brunn be hairy?

He has to be!


I would just like to note that Jarl's mother is in reality a lovely woman and is in no-way more hairy than average.

Why that's very kind of you! thank you! :)

[Agrippa]

What do you think about this guy? Would he have ancestors from the Caucasus or maybe he has a throwback of something else? I did a google search for hairy but don't do it with safe search off.

http://www.theluxuryspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Hairy-Man-thumb-400x366.jpg

This looks like an individual genetic extreme, it might be an atavism and he might be even close to the "wolf people" - I guess he shaved a part of his face even and would have more facial hair otherwise.

Compare with "the wolf people", which is a genetic defect:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,335660,00.html

Obviously he has more normal hair growth, if you think about the distribution alone, but already an extreme.

[Truth Seeker]

Agrippa what about Robin Williams? Would he be a hairy Alpine? He is American actor and comedian with English, Welsh, Irish, and French descent. His mother is French.

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/pv/Robin%20Williams-7.jpg

http://www.theluxuryspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/robin_williams.jpg

[Tabiti]

According to me hairiness is rather an individual, but not subracial trait. They say Dinarids tend to be the hairiest subrace and it might be true, but not a rule. There is no connection between hair colour and hairiness at least I haven't noticed such.

[Brynhild]

This Thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9323) might also clarify.

[Agrippa]

Williams might be Cromagnoid/Dalofaelid-Borreby intermediate with Alpinid.

[Äike]

I have recently read a study, which claimed that Northern Europeans are the least hairy people in Europe.

[Ibericus]

I have recently read a study, which claimed that Northern Europeans are the least hairy people in Europe.
Why not post the study here ? :)

[Agrippa]

Even if they are, it is mostly because of the Lappid and Osteuropid influences, not because of the local Nordeuropids (Nordid, Dalofaelid) or Borreby-Alpinoids.

Such a study shoud at least try to differentiate regions. F.e. inside of Russia the North East vs. the South, in Scandinavia Southern Norway vs. the rest or Southern Norway and Southern Sweden vs. the rest or the like.

[Jarl]

I have recently read a study, which claimed that Northern Europeans are the least hairy people in Europe.

That's mainly in North-East. Uralic East Baltids and other infantile forms have little body hair. Altaics even less ;)

[Äike]

Why not post the study here ? :)

It's in Estonian.


That's mainly in North-East. Uralic East Baltids and other infantile forms have little body hair. Altaics even less

The study talked about all Northern Europeans, not the North-East Europeans.

[Agrippa]

Then it is no good study anyway...

The typological system definitely had its advantages, not lumping all kinds of variants together just because they happened to live in the same area.

[Jarl]

It's in Estonian.

Then we can with no regrets commit it to the flames :D

[Äike]

I just got an idea. Maybe hairiness is related to middle-eastern (http://traintohell.com/misc/MoustacheGirl.jpg) ancestry?

Finnics(NE-Europeans) have the lowest amount of middle-eastern genes, practically zero. They're also the least hairy. Other Northern Europeans also have a very small amount of middle-eastern genes and they're also less hairy then other Europeans. While SE-Europeans with a bigger amount of middle-eastern genes are the hairiest. Creating connections isn't hard.

[Agrippa]

I just got an idea. Maybe hairiness is related to middle-eastern (http://traintohell.com/misc/MoustacheGirl.jpg) ancestry?

Finnics(NE-Europeans) have the lowest amount of middle-eastern genes, practically zero. They're also the least hairy. Other Northern Europeans also have a very small amount of middle-eastern genes and they're also less hairy then other Europeans. While SE-Europeans with a bigger amount of middle-eastern genes are the hairiest. Creating connections isn't hard.

To be precise, Northern Near Easterners, as I said before. So Armenoids and Iranids.

If you go away from there, in EVERY direction, the hairiness as a tendency decreases.

F.e. Arabids and more Southern Eastern Mediterranids too are already less hairy than the Caucasian people. The Caucasian area is really a centre of hairiness.

And of course, the Cromagnoids in the North West too are more hairy, though having a rather low Near Eastern input.

So it's mostly up to cold adapted and Mongoloid inspired forms to be "less hairy" - if excluding feminised and very infantile variants.

The Northern Near Eastern influence definitely entered Europe and formed a large portion of its population probably, some things are unclear yet, yDNA is interesting in this regard too. Thats also a reason why Dinarids might be more hairy or those Mediterranids closer to the Caucasian centre of hairiness, like the ones from Bulgaria, in comparison to those in Iberia.

The incidence of synophrys (monobrows/unibrows) is also higher in the most hairy racial forms and can be used for comparison.

At the same time certain variants have unibrows though being less hairy otherwise. But in Europeans it is usually an indicator, which is even less dependent on the individual's sex type in comparison or careful inspection of a person...

[Pallantides]

I have recently read a study, which claimed that Northern Europeans are the least hairy people in Europe.

I have noticed that the fairer ones are usually the least hairy while the darker ones tend to have more and darker hair on arms, legs and chest.

[Ibericus]

I have noticed that the fairer ones are usually the least hairy while the darker ones tend to have more and darker hair on arms, legs and chest.

Maybe because their hair is fair, and thus less visible...

[Pallantides]

Maybe because their hair is fair, and thus less visible...

Not really, I know some guys who are very "Nordic" looking who have light blond hair and they literally have no chest hair only and faint hair on their legs and arms ... you can tell when someone has little to no body hair.

[Cail]

I have noticed that the fairer ones are usually the least hairy while the darker ones tend to have more and darker hair on arms, legs and chest.
I guess it depends. For example me, I have relatively little chest hair, but my legs and arms are like ape's. If i wasn't blond, you'd think i was a chimp if you saw my arms.

[Ibericus]

I guess it depends. For example me, I have relatively little chest hair, but my legs and arms are like ape's. If i wasn't blond, you'd think i was a chimp if you saw my arms.
Yes. Like this guy, if he was black haired instead of blonde, look his legs :

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/images/08/07/budinger.jpg

[Truth Seeker]

To be precise, Northern Near Easterners, as I said before. So Armenoids and Iranids.

If you go away from there, in EVERY direction, the hairiness as a tendency decreases.

F.e. Arabids and more Southern Eastern Mediterranids too are already less hairy than the Caucasian people. The Caucasian area is really a centre of hairiness.

And of course, the Cromagnoids in the North West too are more hairy, though having a rather low Near Eastern input.

So it's mostly up to cold adapted and Mongoloid inspired forms to be "less hairy" - if excluding feminised and very infantile variants.

The Northern Near Eastern influence definitely entered Europe and formed a large portion of its population probably, some things are unclear yet, yDNA is interesting in this regard too. Thats also a reason why Dinarids might be more hairy or those Mediterranids closer to the Caucasian centre of hairiness, like the ones from Bulgaria, in comparison to those in Iberia.

The incidence of synophrys (monobrows/unibrows) is also higher in the most hairy racial forms and can be used for comparison.

At the same time certain variants have unibrows though being less hairy otherwise. But in Europeans it is usually an indicator, which is even less dependent on the individual's sex type in comparison or careful inspection of a person...

Agrippa I don't have a unibrow. Is a unibrow associated with any type?


I have noticed that the fairer ones are usually the least hairy while the darker ones tend to have more and darker hair on arms, legs and chest.

I have Celtic skin. My cousin has red hair.


Yes. Like this guy, if he was black haired instead of blonde, look his legs :

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/images/08/07/budinger.jpg

I have a friend whos mom immigrated from Germany and whos dad is German American in the military. He was tall and blond and slim like that guy. I never realized how hairy his arms were until he got a tan in the summer.

[Agrippa]

Agrippa I don't have a unibrow. Is a unibrow associated with any type?

Only by frequency, so simple put some types have more individuals with an unibrow than others. Especially notable are Armenoid and Iranid, secondarily Dinarid and Nordindid, so the hairist Europid types...

Ainuids too are very hairy and have it quite often as well.

[Toni]

Race doesn't exist.

[Agrippa]

Race doesn't exist.

Inheritable traits and trait combination of a racial character exist, which is the really important point, whether you call that race or xy is secondary.

[Ibericus]

Race doesn't exist.

Prove it.

[Jarl]

Race doesn't exist.

What exists? What is existence? ;)

[Don]

It's in Estonian.



The study talked about all Northern Europeans, not the North-East Europeans.

That is because of Asian genes of many northeners.
http://www.foroswebgratis.com/imagenes_foros/4/0/9/5/1/126190los%20chinos%20del%20ciber.JPG


Westerners in Europe look more like "men".
http://www.hazmeelchingadofavor.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/sean_connery.jpg
Look at that old stock westerner Sean Connery. Impressive!

[Äike]

That is because of Asian genes of many northeners.
http://www.foroswebgratis.com/imagenes_foros/4/0/9/5/1/126190los%20chinos%20del%20ciber.JPG


Westerners in Europe look more like "men".
http://www.hazmeelchingadofavor.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/sean_connery.jpg
Look at that old stock westerner Sean Connery. Impressive!

Middle-Easterners are in Asia, thus they're also Asians. Taking that into consideration, Southern-Europeans have more Asian genes then Northern-Europeans.

I'm quite sure that this troll just started another flame war, I hope I'm wrong.

[Jarl]

That is because of Asian genes of many northeners.


Taking whole races in the order of most hairy to least hairy it goes like that:


Australoids > Caucasoids > Negroids > Mongoloids

[Stefan]

Southern-Europeans have more Asian genes then Northern-Europeans.


I think that would rather be a Western/Eastern division, if we were to talk about actual Asian ancestry from >1,000 years. Otherwise, Northern Europeans tend to have more affinity with Amerindians, Central Asians, and Siberians; while Southern Europeans have more affinity with the Near East and North Africa.

Edit: Please note that this affinity is prehistoric.

[Ibericus]

Middle-Easterners are in Asia, thus they're also Asians. Taking that into consideration, Southern-Europeans have more Asian genes then Northern-Europeans.

I'm quite sure that this troll just started another flame war, I hope I'm wrong.

You are the only troll here. The middle-eastearn genes in Spain are the same as in other european countries, and that is minimal.

[Äike]

You are the only troll here. The middle-eastearn genes in Spain are the same as in other european countries, and that is minimal.

Well, you are a Troll. Because you're obviously lying (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213675&postcount=187).

I'm too lazy to find out the old articles I have read and this post(in the link (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213675&postcount=187)) should bring out the abstract.

Pure Northern Europeans(Finnics) completely lack in middle-eastern genes, that's also why Finnics are the blondest and the most depigmented.

[Ibericus]

Well, you are a Troll. Because you're obviously lying (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213675&postcount=187).

I'm too lazy to find out the old articles I have read and this post(in the link (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213675&postcount=187)) should bring out the abstract.

Pure Northern Europeans(Finnics) completely lack in middle-eastern genes, that's also why the Finnics are the blondest and the most depigmented.
You are the lier. Not all southern europeans are genetically the same. Spaniards have very littler middle-eastern, And I never said Finns have middle-eastern.

[Stefan]

Well, you are a Troll. Because you're obviously lying (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213675&postcount=187).


Please do note that these tests are based on affinity. It could be migrations both ways that cause the similarity, and the similarities could be very ancient or prehistoric.



Pure Northern Europeans(Finnics) completely lack in middle-eastern genes, that's also why the Finnics are the blondest and the most depigmented.

That should hardly be true. Pigmentation is based off a few genes when compared to the overall genome of a person. Considering that this affinity doesn't have to be due to mixture of historical populations, and if it were to be so the chances of this minute mixture to affect pigmentation is small. The reason why Northern Europeans have higher frequencies of light pigmentation compared to Southern Europeans is most probably due to the mutations that have spread originated among a population that influenced certain Northern European groups more than Southern Europeans. Because of this, the farther you would get away from the population(s) these mutations happened in, the more dispersed the trait would be. It is hardly because of purity that light pigmentation is more frequent in Northern Europe.

[Äike]

Please do note that these tests are based on affinity. It could be migrations both ways that cause the similarity, and the similarities could be very ancient or prehistoric.

When did Europeans migrate back to the Middle-East? As far as I know, people from the Middle-East brought agriculture to Europe and by some theories(quite doubtable) also the Indo-European languages, thus the few people who still speak non-Indo-European languages, are the true native Europeans. Demic diffusion didn't happen in Northern-Europe, that's certain.




That should hardly be true. Pigmentation is based off a few genes when compared to the overall genome of a person. Considering that this affinity doesn't have to be due to mixture of historical populations, and if it were to be so the chances of this minute mixture affect pigmentation is small. The reason why Northern Europeans have higher frequencies of light pigmentation compared to Southern Europeans is most probably due to the mutations that have spread originated among a population that influenced certain Northern European groups more than Southern Europeans. Because of this, the farther you would get away from the population(s) these mutations happened in, the more dispersed the trait would be. It is hardly because of purity that light pigmentation is more frequent in Northern Europe.

Everything you said was logical, now point out what part of my sentence is hardly true. Putting a "=" between a lack of middle-eastern genes and blodism/depigmentation might be a bit doubtable. If that was the only part of my sentence that you disagreed with, then I understand you.

[Pallantides]

Well, you are a Troll. Because you're obviously lying (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213675&postcount=187).

I'm too lazy to find out the old articles I have read and this post(in the link (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213675&postcount=187)) should bring out the abstract.

Pure Northern Europeans(Finnics) completely lack in middle-eastern genes, that's also why Finnics are the blondest and the most depigmented.

I was a bit wrong, some Italians actually have Mideast scores from 17% to as high as 28% or above.

This is the result of a Galician Spaniard
-------------------------------------------
Europe 95.5%
Oceania 0.4%
America -0.1%
Africa 3.1%
E. Asia 0.7%

Europe 92.8%
S. Asia 3.6%
Oceania 0.3%
America -0.3%
Africa 2.8%
E. Asia 0.3%

Europe 84.6%
Mideast 11.5%
S. Asia 1.7%
Oceania 0.2%
America -0.1%
Africa 1.4%
E. Asia 0.3%

Look at the bottom quantitative: it's typical of Spanish with a modest
Moorish influence. The African comes in through that. This is clearly
seen in the components 1 and 2 of the "maps".
---------------------------------------------

His nick at FB is Andoyne and he is the only Spaniard I know of that have done the BGA.

[Jarl]

Finnics are the blondest and the most depigmented.

:rolleyes:

http://jbconway.com/images/visiting%20finns.jpg



thus the few people who still speak non-Indo-European languages, are the true native Europeans. Demic diffusion didn't happen in Northern-Europe, that's certain.

NoO! Coz you stubbornly fail to understand that Uralic-speakers with their N Y-chromosome came to Europe from South Siberia.


Some actually DID remain in Siberia like the Samoyeds and the whole Ugric branch (Khanty and Mansi, and Hungarians before their exodus in VIII century).

[Äike]

You are the lier. Not all southern europeans are genetically the same. Spaniards have very littler middle-eastern, And I never said Finns have middle-eastern.

You are correct, not all Southern-Europeans are genetically the same. Although, Spanish historians tend to undervalue the Muslim/Arab influence in Spain.

Saying that Spaniards have very little Middle-Eastern genes might be true on a global level. But on an European level, Spaniards have more Middle-Eastern blood(not much).

This is like the 10th time when some Spanish provocateur starts a flamewar which can be titled as "Southern Europeans are more European then Northern Europeans".

You just gotta love trolls :85563001:

[Ibericus]

I was a bit wrong, some Italians actually have Mideast scores from 17% to as high as 28% or above.

This is the result of a Galician Spaniard
-------------------------------------------
Europe 95.5%
Oceania 0.4%
America -0.1%
Africa 3.1%
E. Asia 0.7%

Europe 92.8%
S. Asia 3.6%
Oceania 0.3%
America -0.3%
Africa 2.8%
E. Asia 0.3%

Europe 84.6%
Mideast 11.5%
S. Asia 1.7%
Oceania 0.2%
America -0.1%
Africa 1.4%
E. Asia 0.3%

Look at the bottom quantitative: it's typical of Spanish with a modest
Moorish influence. The African comes in through that. This is clearly
seen in the components 1 and 2 of the "maps".
---------------------------------------------

His nick at FB is Andoyne and he is the only Spaniard I know of that have done the BGA.

North Africans ARE NOT middle-easterns. Check a map.

[Äike]

NoO! Coz you stubbornly fail to understand that Uralic-speakers with their N Y-chromosome came from South Siberia.

You stubbornly fail to read anything not from the 19th century.

[Ibericus]

You are correct, not all Southern-Europeans are genetically the same. Although, Spanish historians tend to undervalue the Muslim/Arab influence in Spain.

Saying that Spaniards have very little Middle-Eastern genes might be true on a global level. But on an European level, Spaniards have more Middle-Eastern blood(not much).

This is like the 10th time when some Spanish provocateur starts a flamewar which can be titled as "Southern Europeans are more European then Northern Europeans".

You just gotta love trolls :85563001:
north african is not the same as middle-eastern. Gotta love trolls.

[Pallantides]

North Africans ARE NOT middle-easterns. Check a map.

When did I say North Africans are Middle Easterns?:confused:


Btw North African themselves do have some Mideast influence.

this is what Dr.McDonald wrote:

Look at the bottom quantitative: it's typical of Spanish with a modest
Moorish influence. The African comes in through that. This is clearly
seen in the components 1 and 2 of the "maps".

Where does it state anything about the mideast score having anything to do with North Africans?

[Jarl]

You stubbornly fail to read anything not from the 19th century.

This not an argument. Asian N haplogroup is universally linked to Uralic-speakers. Everywhere. While the oldest historical abode of the Ugrics and Samoyeds (the closest kin of the Finnics) is... Siberia! Saying that Uralic-speakers emerged in Euopre is simply an invention.


Here, the Uralics after differentiation - the interface of Asia and Europe:

http://www.fridaycircle.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/uralic-lgs-map.jpg

Undifferentiated Proto-Uralic speakers most likely originated in Southern Siberia. From where they were pushed out by the Altaics (Turkic and Mongol language speakers, whom many linguists link to Uralics).

[Fortis in Arduis]

That is because of Asian genes of many northeners.

Westerners in Europe look more like "men".

Look at that old stock westerner Sean Connery. Impressive!

Did you execute a google search for 'mankini'? :cool:

[Äike]

North Africans ARE NOT middle-easterns. Check a map.

I checked several maps, which one did you have in mind?

http://steynian.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/muslim_spain.gif

http://www.raqs.co.nz/me/graphics/map750.gif

http://www.reformation.org/en-muslim-spain.jpg

[Äike]

This not an argument. Asian N haplogroup is universally linked to Uralic-speakers. Everywhere. While the oldest historical abode of the Ugrics and Samoyeds (the closest kin of the Finnics) is... Siberia! Saying that Uralic-speakers emerged in Euopre is simply an invention.


Here, the Uralics after differentiation - the interface of Asia and Europe:

http://www.fridaycircle.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/uralic-lgs-map.jpg

Undifferentiated Proto-Uralic speakers most likely originated in Southern Siberia. From where they were pushed out by the Altaics (Turkic and Mongol language speakers, whom many linguists link to Uralics).

Some say that N originated from Eastern-Europe, but just like R, it probably originated from Asia.

R originated from Central-Asia, does that make all carriers of R, Asians?

By your logic of halpgroup origination, the majority of Europeans are Asians.

[Pallantides]

Rurik belonged to y-DNA group N1c1.:)
http://www.robertsewell.ca/rurik.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Prizvanievaryagov.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Nicholas_Roerich,_Guests_from_Overseas.jpg/800px-Nicholas_Roerich,_Guests_from_Overseas.jpg

[Jarl]

But N did not originate where R did. R is West Asian, N is clearly East Asian. The Asian link is still evident today. Whole branches of Uralics still live in their original heimat in Siberia. From Ural to Krasnoyarsk.

[Äike]

But N did not originate where R did. R is West Asian, N is clearly East Asian. The Asian link is still evident today. Whole branches of Uralics still live in their original heimat in Siberia. From Ural to Krasnoyarsk.

N and R aren't as different as you think. "Clearly East Asian", I lol'ed. Using the word clearly at this period of time is quite premature. I'm quite sure that genetics and our view of human history will advance a lot in the next 50 years.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8957/kwydna.png

[Ibericus]

I checked several maps, which one did you have in mind?

http://steynian.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/muslim_spain.gif

http://www.raqs.co.nz/me/graphics/map750.gif

http://www.reformation.org/en-muslim-spain.jpg

Ok asian, you have convinced me now that Spain is in the middle-east. Gotta love trolls damn..

[Äike]

Ok asian, you have convinced me now that Spain is in the middle-east.

Spain isn't in the Middle-East but Middle-Easterners settled in Iberia.

Gotta love trolls damn..

You are a bit too narcissistic.

[Ibericus]

Spain isn't in the Middle-East but Middle-Easterners settled in Iberia.
You clearly said we are middle-eastern living in the middle-east, or what did you want to say with those maps ??

About the settlers, I don't think we received more middle-easterns than in central europe.


You are a bit too narcissistic.
Stop giving me negative reputations again, argue like a man, not like a furious child

[Äike]

You clearly said we are middle-eastern living in the middle-east, or what did you want to say with those maps ??

No... I said that Middle-Easterners ruled Iberia, that doesn't make Spaniards Middle-Easterners who live in the Middle-East. Spaniards just have more Middle-Eastern influence then the average European.



Stop giving me negative reputations, argue like a man, not like a furious child

A true man debates without using ad-hominems, if you use ad-hominems then you definitely don't deserve positive reputation points.

Argue like a man and you will get positive reputation points.

[Agrippa]

Taking whole races in the order of most hairy to least hairy it goes like that:


Australoids > Caucasoids > Negroids > Mongoloids

Australoids are not generally more hairy than Caucasoids/Europids, thoughin Europids the typological variation might be even greater of course, what shouldnt wonder if considering that Australids are - relatively - more homogenous.


Northern Europeans tend to have more affinity with Amerindians, Central Asians, and Siberians; while Southern Europeans have more affinity with the Near East and North Africa.

Prehistoric? When. In fact all Europids came from the Near East and Southern Asia obviously, Central Asia being an old Europid territory. It has nothing to do with real Mongoloid affinities, this came into the region sporadically and stronger later - exemplified by N primarily.

Europids came out of the Near East - South Asia originally - obviously. The stronger Europid traits even more so.


Pure Northern Europeans(Finnics) completely lack in middle-eastern genes, that's also why the Finnics are the blondest and the most depigmented.

Thats regional adaptation, because it's simply possible from a climatic/UV situation to become that light. Obviously, it's almost secondary which race you would have send into the region and under those conditions, all would have become lighter through selection under this specific selective regime and once some genes for that were introduced by genflow.

Near Eastern haplogroups are largely Europid, unless there is newer foreign admixture, N is no classic Europid marker, nor is the Eastbaltid-Lappoid complex classic Europid, nor is that the case in an autosomal comparison. I don't think it is such a big deal actually, but if saying that someone is Europe is less Europid and then arguing about how blondism in Finns automatically makes them the most Europid ones is - a joke?

N is definitely not European in origin and came into the Westeurasian/Europid sphere later, as fully developed Mongoloid or something "Proto-Mongoloid" I don't know for sure, but definitely not Europid in the classic racial sense.

[Ibericus]

No... I said that Middle-Easterners ruled Iberia, that doesn't make Spaniards Middle-Easterners who live in the Middle-East. Spaniards just have more Middle-Eastern influence then the average European.

The Berbers ruled muslim Spain, not middle-easterns. Berbers are not middle-easterns. And they[Berbers] were a minority. And It's not true that we have more middle-eastern influence than the average european, just check the Y-DNA lineages for Spain. Spain has the same J as France, Germany, Holland, see for yourself :

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


Argue like a man and you will get positive reputation points.
When you are losing a debate, you just start giving bad reps, you always do the same.

[Äike]

The Berbers ruled muslim Spain, not middle-easterns. Berbers are not middle-easterns. And they[Berbers] were a minority. And It's not true that we have more middle-eastern influence than the average european, just check the Y-DNA lineages for Spain. Spain has the same J as France, Germany, Holland, see for yourself :

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

You're obsessed with Y-DNA, but now look at it from a different angle. Do you truly believe that Spain and Holland have had the same amount of Middle-Eastern influence?


In time Islamic migrants from places as diverse as North Africa to Yemen and Syria came to live in the Iberian peninsula.

If Yemen and Syria aren't in the Middle-East and the people living there aren't Middle-Easterners, then my name isn't Karl.



When you are losing a debate, you just start giving bad reps, you always do the same.

No one can loose a debate against you.

[Ibericus]

You're obsessed with Y-DNA, but now look at it from a different angle. Do you truly believe that Spain and Holland have had the same amount of Middle-Eastern influence?
Yes. Actually the people who brought agriculture into Europe were middle-easterns who entered through the balkans, up to central Europe, not in Spain.


If Yemen and Syria aren't in the Middle-East and the people living there aren't Middle-Easterners, then my name isn't Karl.
If these people were enough to contribute to the genetic pool of Spain, im a Papuan



No one can loose a debate against you.
Sure.

[Äike]

Thats regional adaptation, because it's simply possible from a climatic/UV situation to become that light. Obviously, it's almost secondary which race you would have send into the region and under those conditions, all would have become lighter through selection under this specific selective regime and once some genes for that were introduced by genflow.

Near Eastern haplogroups are largely Europid, unless there is newer foreign admixture, N is no classic Europid marker, nor is the Eastbaltid-Lappoid complex classic Europid, nor is that the case in an autosomal comparison. I don't think it is such a big deal actually, but if saying that someone is Europe is less Europid and then arguing about how blondism in Finns automatically makes them the most Europid ones is - a joke?

N is definitely not European in origin and came into the Westeurasian/Europid sphere later, as fully developed Mongoloid or something "Proto-Mongoloid" I don't know for sure, but definitely not Europid in the classic racial sense.

N is just as European as R. You are probably correct that N is "definitely" not European in origin, very few haplogroups in Europe actually are European in origin.

A bit off-topic but... Agrippa, have you ever been a member of PANF?

[Äike]

Yes. Actually the people who brought agriculture into Europe were middle-easterns who entered through the balkans, up to central Europe, not in Spain.

That's right, demic diffusion didn't happen in Spain and you're actually a Basque who's speaking an Indo-European language. I'm completely serious.



If these people were enough to contribute to the genetic pool of Spain, im a Papuan


It all depends how you define "enough".



Sure.

I'm glad that you agree, looks like I was wrong to call you narcissistic.

[Ibericus]

Actually Spain has one of the least middle-eastern influence in Europe, which can been seen here in this study :

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6910/plot1hy7.jpg

[Pallantides]

Prehistoric? When. In fact all Europids came from the Near East and Southern Asia obviously, Central Asia being an old Europid territory. It has nothing to do with real Mongoloid affinities, this came into the region sporadically and stronger later - exemplified by N primarily.



From what I have seen Northern Europeans do have somewhat higher affinity with Siberians and Native Americans and less Middle Eastern input than other Europeans do.

[Pallantides]

Norwegian BGA
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/994/norwegiansbga.jpg

Italian BGA
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5692/italiansbga.jpg



I have highlighted the mideastern score, also notice the difference in the Amerindian score, the Italians have negative scores while the Norwegians have positive scores.

[Ibericus]

Norwegian BGA
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/994/norwegiansbga.jpg

Italian BGA
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5692/italiansbga.jpg



I have highlighted the mideastern score, also notice the difference in the Amerindian score, the Italians have negative scores while the Norwegians have positive scores.

Italians are not the same as spaniards. Plus, this is CRAP. How can italians be 10% South Asian ??

[Pallantides]

Wow you just discredited yourself...

The South East Asian affinty is ancient besides Dr. McDonald's analysis of users 23andMe raw data is probably the most accurate there is, you should tell Aino, Polako or anyone with some knowledge of genetics that it's CRAP as you put it...:coffee:


I only know of one Spaniard that has sent his raw data to Dr. Mcdonald, thats to few to make a real comparison, I posted his result on page 6.

[Stefan]

Italians are not the same as spaniards. Plus, this is CRAP. How can italians be 10% South Asian ??

Everybody gets about 6-10. Remember this is an affinity test. You can actually get over 100 European.

[Ibericus]

Wow you just discredited yourself...

The South East Asian affinty is ancient besides Dr. McDonald's analysis of users 23andMe raw data is probably the most accurate there is, you should tell Aino, Polako or anyone with some knowledge of genetics that it's CRAP as you put it...:coffee:
Sure..when it comes to south asian it is "ancient" but when it comes to middle-eastern it is racial-mixing, you guys are amazing , Btw, do you have Spaniards ? Im sure they have the same mid-eas levels as french people

[Pallantides]

Do you love putting words in mouth?

When I have said anything about race mixing... I'm just stating that Northern Europeans have less input from Neolithic mideastern farmers and thats why they have lower mideast scores.

[Don]

Southern-Europeans have more Asian genes then Northern-Europeans.



- Interpreting that Spain, for you, is a Southern-European country

and

- Ignoring that Spain genes are in major part from ANCIENT EXTREM WEST populations as Spain or Iberia is in the WEST END, far from Finlands or whatevers, far East...



Notice the natural frontiers of Europe, in particular Western Extremes of Eurasia, very impressive the case of Iberia.

The massive invasions of Eastern tribes to Europe came for thousands of years from the right part of the Map, called "East". Take Conclusions about the presence of Eastern genes in the Zones in the "left" side of the Map, in particular the notable case of "Iberian Fortress" :confused:
http://www.voyagesphotosmanu.com/Complet/images/mapa_europa.gif

then, the conclusions from your statement, implying to Spain, are pleasure for the health.

Jokes are therapeutic.
And other's ignorance sometimes too.

In this moment, for me, both are funny and, in consequence, healthy.
Thanks :)

[Tabiti]

LOL. Here we go again!
I think the main problem here is that many people still connect Middle East only with the recent Middle Eastern populations like Arabs. Same goes for Asia and Mongoloids.
The world and racial distribution back in ancient times was quite different, furthermore I haven't seen any clear evidences proving the tight connection "haplogroup - racial type".

[Agrippa]

N is just as European as R. You are probably correct that N is "definitely" not European in origin, very few haplogroups in Europe actually are European in origin.

It doesn't matter if they are European in origin, what matters is if they are from the Europid zone. Only two major yDNA lineages can be questioned E and N. The variants of E in question being in East Africa, North East Africa and the Near East for very, very long times, carried on by Europids for the most parts since thousands of years.

In the case of N we know it came not from the Europid core areas, it being correlates with autosomal deviation in Europe, it correlates with Finno-Ugrian/Uralic languages, with the immigration of Mongoloids or at least Mongoloform variants in prehistoric times and today Eastbaltid-Lappoid, which are the most devating variants in Europe with a somehow transitional character to the Mongolid race.

That are clear facts.


A bit off-topic but... Agrippa, have you ever been a member of PANF?

No.


From what I have seen Northern Europeans do have somewhat higher affinity with Siberians and Native Americans and less Middle Eastern input than other Europeans do.

Crucial is who brought the racial characteristics and trends - that were the same as elsewhere, the Nordid and progressive Cromagnid types came from the same source.
Obviously there was an older, more archaic layer present, but that being largely pushed aside, yet still there are traces.

As for "Italians" - which Italians? North, Central, South?

And of course, in Europe different but racially similar populations carried the movement on at times. F.e. with R1b and R1a carriers.

Crucial is you can sum up a large portion of the classic Europid variation which expanded in Mesolithic and Neolithic times from Anatolia, South Eastern Europe and Eastern Europe-Central Asia into the rest of Europe.

It's just a clear case, the versions of R1a, R1b in Europe, I, J, G - all are clearly Europid markers, N isn't.


Haplogroup N is a descendant haplogroup of Haplogroup NO, and is believed to have first appeared in Southeast Asia approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, during the Ice Age. Y-chromosomes that display the M231 mutation that defines Haplogroup N but do not display the LLY22g mutation that defines Haplogroup N1 are said to belong to Haplogroup N*. At present, haplogroup N* Y-DNA has been found only in a small sample (1.2%) of Hans from China.[3]

After Haplogroup N arose in Southeast Asia, males carrying the marker apparently moved northwards as the climate warmed in the Holocene. The absence of haplogroup N in the Americas indicates that its spread across Asia happened after the submergence of the Bering land bridge.[4]

Haplogroup N is the ancestral group for Haplogroup N1 (LLY22g) and its subclades, N1a, N1b, and N1c (formerly known as N1, N2, and N3, respectively).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)

At the time it moved into Europid territory, Europids were practically "complete yet". So regardless of where the other yDNA haplogroups came up, they were in the genpool of Europids at that time and carried on by largely Europid racial forms.

The same wasn't true for the haplogroup N, which was a newcomer from the East carrying at least "Proto-Mongoloid" characteristics with it, proofs mentioned above already.

It became "Europidicised" in Europe, due to heavy mixture with locals, primarily of the archaic Cromagnoid kind, which was also ancestral to the modern Europid Baltid forms. Those populations which became heavily influenced and probably even selected for cold adaptations retained more of the original carriers (Mongoloid) traits, that are the Lappoids and Eastbaltids.

The more extreme version of those two racial forms leave little questions open, they have a very clear and extreme deviation from the Europid standard, though being still in the wider spectrum.

Similarly, those Proto-Mongoloid Uralics which mixed with Europids and Mongoloids, with less Europid influences, are predominantely Mongoloid still, those are the Westsibirids.

[Allenson]

Back to the topic at hand: I would say that Dinarids, generally speaking, have the most body hair. Mediterraneans can be quite hairy too. One thing to consider is that their body hair is usually dark and thus, shows up more readily than does lighter body hair.

As Agrippa noted, NW Cro-Mag types (myself included) can also be quite hairy but as their hair is often considerably lighter in color and the two types mentioned above, it doesn't stand out as much.

[Falkata]

Iberia has more middle eastern ancestry than Estonia and Estonia has higher asian ancestry than Iberia.
And :confused:

N1c is present in the 90% of Yakuts ;)

http://www.chessbase.com/news/2007/yakut01.jpg

[Pallantides]

N1c is present in the 90% of Yakuts ;)

http://www.chessbase.com/news/2007/yakut01.jpg


R1b is also found in very high frequency among certain populations in Asia and Africa.
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/bashkiry.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_sgQ2xydYQVY/SwVeEx0UxCI/AAAAAAAAAGg/5mqrc_fNiOA/s1600/30730660.AfghanistanHazaraBoys.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Hausa_harpist.jpg

[Falkata]

r1b is the most common haplogroup in european populations, however N1c is more common in Asia than in Europe :p

[Äike]

Iberia has more middle eastern ancestry than Estonia and Estonia has higher asian ancestry than Iberia.
And :confused:


Middle-Easterners are Asians... Thus if we are talking about Asian ancestry, then Iberians are more related to Asians, then Estonians. Estonia has never been ruled by non-whites for half a millennia.

[Äike]

r1b is the most common haplogroup in european populations, however N1c is more common in Asia than in Europe :p

You're wrong... and the more posts I see from Spaniards, the more I think that all 3 are actually the same person.


Haplogroup N1c1

The subclade N1c1 is defined by the presence of markers M178 and P298. (It was previously known as N3a.) N1c1* has higher average frequency in Eastern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among Finns and approximately 40% among Latvians and Lithuanians. It also more diverse in Eastern Europe than in Siberia.

The fact that N1c1 is more common in Europe, then in Asia has led to some theories that N1c1 evolved in Eastern-Europe.

[Pallantides]

r1b is the most common haplogroup in european populations, however N1c is more common in Asia than in Europe :p

the subclade N1c1 is the most common among Finns

'The subclade N1c1 is defined by the presence of markers M178 and P298. (It was previously known as N3a.) N1c1* has higher average frequency in Eastern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among Finns and approximately 40% among Latvians and Lithuanians.[It also more diverse in Eastern Europe than in Siberia'


There are about 8 millions(of wich ca. 60% are N1c1) and only 456 000 Yakuts.



*edit seems Karl was faster than me.

[Falkata]

So R1b appeared in Central Asia and N1c in East Europe? :mmmm:

And yes, we´re the same person, like the blessed trinity.
You´re the only one trolling here with your hairiness-middleastern connections.

[Agrippa]

Middle-Easterners are Asians... Thus if we are talking about Asian ancestry, then Iberians are more related to Asians, then Estonians. Estonia has never been ruled by non-whites for half a millennia.

Well, in theory, but Europids are finally, by geography Westeurasians by definition and most people apply "Asian" in a racial sense to East Asian = Mongolid.


R1b is also found in very high frequency among certain populations in Asia and Africa.

True, but those are all populations which were influenced by Europids - or at least almost all of them, only in Australids and some South East Asians it could point to a migration which is older than the Europid race proper.

R1b in Africa points to Afro-Asiatic Europid expansions and is clearly related to Chadic speakers, which even in their mythology speak about new males killing the local demons and the like, all reflecting, like in parts of India, the expansion of Europids - Afro-Asiatics this time most likely - into Negroid areas.

So here it's exactly the other way around, the population is pred. Negrid, like most Baltic Finns are Europid, but their male line came from Europids and in some individuals the influence is very noticable. Really the exact opposite but same pattern in the end.

Also in certain populations in Asia, like Central Asia in particular, it's well known that the presence of R1a1a and R1b most likely reflects Indoeuropean influences primarily, like in the people like Uighurs, half Europid-Mongolid Uighur girl:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4865&stc=1&d=1275236900

Notice the similarities to some Finno-Ugrian groups - not by chance, because in this case also, it is a mixture.


the subclade N1c1 is the most common among Finns

To me, someone having that haplogroup is not necessarily "un-Europid", because after all, that CAN present just a small portion of his overall genetic make up and probably zero of his racial make up. So a perfect Nordid with extremely strong Europid traits, probably even hairy, can as well have N1c1 obviously.

Neither is an extreme Eastbaltid who carries R1a1a a classic Indoeuropean...

Those markers are more important for populations rather than individuals, since it might reflect influences present in a population as a whole, not in individuals. A perfect Nordid can have a Negrid haplogroup too, doesn't change one quota of his status unless it has phenotypical significance.


So R1b appeared in Central Asia and N1c in East Europe?

Probably, but at different times and Central Asia was Europid in prehistoric times, it was a major source for the Europid race and Europeans racial make up.


The mutations that define the subclade N1c (old name N3) are M46/Tat and P105. This is the most frequent subclade of N. It arose probably in the region of present day China, and subsequently experienced serial bottlenecks in Siberia and secondary expansions in eastern Europe.[15] Haplogroup N1c is approximately 14,000 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)#Haplogroup_N1c1

It became "Europidicised" over time due to intermixture with Europids, as R1b in West Africa became largely "Negridicised" by intermixture with local Negrids.

But still some Chadic speakers show the Europid influence of their successful paternal ancestors.


We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/01/r-v88-and-migration-of-chadic-speakers.html

[Ibericus]

R1b is also found in very high frequency among certain populations in Asia and Africa.
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/bashkiry.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_sgQ2xydYQVY/SwVeEx0UxCI/AAAAAAAAAGg/5mqrc_fNiOA/s1600/30730660.AfghanistanHazaraBoys.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Hausa_harpist.jpg

The R1b branch in Europe (M269) is different than the Afircan one (V88). However, the N1c found in Europe is the same branch as the one found in Asia.

[Ibericus]

Middle-Easterners are Asians... Thus if we are talking about Asian ancestry, then Iberians are more related to Asians, then Estonians. Estonia has never been ruled by non-whites for half a millennia.
Nice try turning out the significance of Asian, but Iberians have very little middle-eastern influence actually. So, you have more Asian than us.

[Pallantides]

R1b1b2
R1b1b2 is defined by the presence of SNP marker M269. It has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia, and with relatively high frequency among Bashkirs of the Bashkortostan and Perm region (84.0%).

Most of the European subclades of R1b orginates from M269.

[Äike]

Nice try turning out the significance of Asian, but Iberians have very little middle-eastern influence actually. So, you have more Asian than us.

Answer me with a yes or no. Does Iberia have less Middle-Eastern influences then Ireland or Denmark for example?

It's a fact, that on an European level, Iberians have more Middle-Eastern influence then the average Europeans. If you deny that, then you need to be carried away in a straitjacket.

[Ibericus]

Answer me with a yes or no. Does Iberia have less Middle-Eastern influences then Ireland or Denmark for example?

No. Not as much as to say we have more Asian, like you say.
We have received very little middle-eastern influence, on the contrary you have received asian influence. You tried to be smart by saying we are more asian on the basis of middle-eastern, which is ridiculous.


It's a fact, that on an European level, Iberians have more Middle-Eastern influence then the average Europeans. If you deny that, then you need to be carried away in a straitjacket.
Not true. Prove it.

I already showed you studies :


http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6910/plot1hy7.jpg


http://i34.tinypic.com/ekm6h1.png


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/R79MXyHURCI/AAAAAAAAAFg/8MeKImXcV34/s1600/structurescience.jpg

[Agrippa]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/R79MXyHURCI/AAAAAAAAAFg/8MeKImXcV34/s1600/structurescience.jpg

Also note that the Uighurs are half-Europid and show European affinities in their Europid portion. Like I said before already.

And the small Mongoloid influence in Russians being most likely related to the haplogroup N too rather than other, later Mongoloid admixture, at least majority wise...

[Don]

Middle-Easterners are Asians... Thus if we are talking about Asian ancestry, then Iberians are more related to Asians, then Estonians. Estonia has never been ruled by non-whites for half a millennia.

Friend Karl, you are entering in territories that have elements that are over your posibilities, due to your proven ignorance about Spanish History.

I highly recommend you to keep out from the places unknown for you and show a little of common sense and stop now your predictable fall to the stinky depths of the shame... by your own foot.

Keep talking about EASTonia or whatever and stop saying stupidities as the ones contained on your previous words, something usual when you talk about things you don't know a fuck.

[Äike]

It's very hard for me to think that Iberians have the same amount of Middle-Eastern influence then Germany for example.

Most of Iberia was ruled by Muslims for half a millennia, while Germany has never been conquered by Arabs. :confused:

[Pallantides]

From an aesthetic stand-point a bit of asian infulence is not bad ...but I guess it depends on what sort of Asian...
http://i.timeinc.net/people/i/2004/04/gallery/beauties04/lliu.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Mongolian_women.jpg

:p:D

[Ibericus]

It's very hard for me to think that Iberians have the same amount of Middle-Eastern influence then Germany for example.

Most of Iberia was ruled by Muslims for half a millennia, while Germany has never been conquered by Arabs. :confused:
Do I have to explain it again ? First of all, the moors were a minority. Second, the vast majority of moors were not Arabs, but BERBERS, which are NorthWestern African, not middle-eastern. Is it so difficult to understannd? On the other hand, central Europeans like Austria, Switzerland, Balkans,etc have far more ME influence because of the near-eastern farmers from the fertil crescent.

[Äike]

Friend Karl, you are entering in territories that have elements that are over your posibilities, due to your proven ignorance about Spanish History.

I highly recommend you to keep out from the places unknown for you and show a little of common sense and stop now your predictable fall to the stinky depths of the shame... by your own foot.

Keep talking about EASTonia or whatever and stop saying stupidities as the ones contained on your previous words, something usual when you talk about things you don't know a fuck.

the modern name "Estonia" is related to the name which was given to this area in the Old Norse sagas. Estonia was called Esthland, because the Vikings of the East(Víkingr frá Esthland) came from here. Icelandic vikings had encounters with Víkingr frá Esthland, according to their sagas.

Anyway, you didn't even try to argue my claim, your post is just full of pointless rambling. You Southerners get worked up too easily, you should keep a cool head.

[Äike]

Do I have to explain it again ? First of all, the moors were a minority. Second, the vast majority of moors were not Arabs, but BERBERS, which are NorthWestern African, not middle-eastern. Is it so difficult to understannd? On the other hand, central Europeans like Austria, Switzerland, Balkans,etc have far more ME influence because of the near-eastern farmers from the fertil crescent.

You are talking about distant Middle-Eastern influence, I am talking about recent Middle-Eastern influence.

There were Middle-Easterners in Spain, that's a fact.


Islamic migrants from places as diverse as North Africa to Yemen and Syria came to live in the Iberian peninsula.

Yemenis:

http://www.awasu.com/weblog/images/yemen/yemeniMen.jpeg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/08/11/460qat.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/80/232702683_885d7a49fd.jpg?v=0

http://www.shanebauer.net/images/galleries/_MG_6708_chew_session.jpg

[Ibericus]

You are talking about distant Middle-Eastern influence, I am talking about recent Middle-Eastern influence.

There were Middle-Easterners in Spain, that's a fact.

There have been far more Jews in Germany or Holland, than Syrians or Yemens in Spain. Ridiculous.

[Äike]

There have been far more Jews in Germany or Holland, than Syrians or Yemens in Spain. Ridiculous.

You can't back up that statement and you know that you're wrong.

[Falkata]

Again with the arabs and the middleasterns... The arabs were the elite rulers, not more than a 4000-5000 in a country of millions. The core of the muslim population was composed by converted iberians and berbers from N. Africa.
There were huge battles, massive expulsion and repopulations .. what do you expect?
For example, in the last expulsion in 1609 ,250.000 moriscos were forced to leave the country; in 1212 in the Navas de Tolosa battle 100.000 muslims died on the battlefield, in 1492 200.000 jews were expelled ...

[Agrippa]

From an aesthetic stand-point a bit of asian infulence is not bad ...but I guess it depends on what sort of Asian...


Many mixtures can look pleasing, some having even great traits overall individually, yet I don't want those mixtures to expand in European territories, even though individuals can be always integrated as long as it is no mass immigration which really alters the character of the population significantly into a new - and rather unwanted - direction.


You are talking about distant Middle-Eastern influence, I am talking about recent Middle-Eastern influence.

There were Middle-Easterners in Spain, that's a fact.

But most came from North Africa and the vast majority left, even taking away some European elements with them, converted Europeans...

And of course the Moriskos were largely driven out of the country altogether.

The present recent Middle Eastern influence in Spain is much lower than in Southern Italy-Sicily f.e. and the base of Iberia is practically exclusively Europid.

Obviously a Suedmediterranid-Berberid influence is still less foreign than a Mongoloid one...

In the end I consider both - those in the South (stronger in other regions than Iberia) and North East to be of low significance for an biopolicy, as long as no negative traits being spread which is a question for the respective countries and immigration and Eugenic policies.

So I rather say all calm down on that. But fact is that the influence in the North East is more foreign than the one in the South. Because the foreign influence in the South, if being present regionally at all, is still Europid in the VAST majority of cases, that in the North East is not even Europid/Caucasoid...

Thats why I'd say one should be careful if sitting in a glasshouse and trying to throw stones...

If you apply such strict standards to the South, the same standards will fall back on the North East if anyone does that in an objective way for all.

[Ibericus]

You can't back up that statement and you know that you're wrong.
Yes, I can back it up, I've showed you genetic studies.
And you don't know shit about the history of Spain. The vast majority of Moors consisted of berbers. The arabs, syrians or yemenis were insignificant. Plus, they ended up all expelled, and then with had the "Limpieza de Sangre". On the other hand, the Netherlands or Poland, had the largest jewish populations of Europe.

[Don]

You Southerners get worked up too easily, you should keep a cool head.


You ignored my suggestions and, by your own, you threw yourself to the troll's pit, by the combination of Ignorance about a matter and lack of insight to understand when you are entering unknown territories far away from your knowledge and possibilities. :(

Now you stink by your own. ;)


1.- Islamic troops of Spain were mainly Berbers, who are Europid. Arabian. Other easterns were MINORITY among the islamic invaders.

2.- In those years, the intermixing with INVADERS, who lived apart, was TABÚ among the Spaniards, not as happened in your eastern lands for thousands of years with the continuous invasions of Eastern people from the Steppes.
Intermarriage was not RARE but Impossible with the Islamic Invaders, not only by race, but by honor, religion and inherent xenophobia among the Iberians.
Let's ignore for now the further Famous Inquisición Española, that worked hard in the expulsion by EASY VISUAL IDENTIFICATION (read here phenotype) of "Moros" (moors, berbers mainly) among the Spaniards and jews.

3.- -AND MORE OBVIOUS- Iberia is LOCATED in the EXTREME WEST OF EUROPE and it's genetic pool is MAINLY WESTERN, from Celtiberians, Paradigm both of WESTERNERS, anciently living here from more than 10.000 years ago.


...

These 3 points are too obvious about our History that you, with your statements has proven to be an pestle, by talking stupidities about something you ignore... or a Troll.



NOTE: I don't like people tell stupidities and unfounded words about my people, family, history and Blood. The message per se (my dad is more eastern than a estonian dad) is unimportant to me, the disturbance is in seeing people speaking senseless words based in IGNORANCE. And seems everybody knows a lot about Spain... even a monkey.

Knowing own limits of knowledge as well as have criteria about the fidelity of its is always a good strategy to avoid shameful situations.

Calling a Spaniard "eastern", in some way as this man has done, is one of the most shameful forms of showing own limits.

[Äike]

But most came from North Africa and the vast majority left, even taking away some European elements with them, converted Europeans...

And of course the Moriskos were largely driven out of the country altogether.

The present recent Middle Eastern influence in Spain is much lower than in Southern Italy-Sicily f.e. and the base of Iberia is practically exclusively Europid.

Obviously a Suedmediterranid-Berberid influence is still less foreign than a Mongoloid one...

In the end I consider both - those in the South (stronger in other regions than Iberia) and North East to be of low significance for an biopolicy, as long as no negative traits being spread which is a question for the respective countries and immigration and Eugenic policies.

So I rather say all calm down on that. But fact is that the influence in the North East is more foreign than the one in the South. Because the foreign influence in the South, if being present regionally at all, is still Europid in the VAST majority of cases, that in the North East is not even Europid/Caucasoid...

Thats why I'd say one should be careful if sitting in a glasshouse and trying to throw stones...

If you apply such strict standards to the South, the same standards will fall back on the North East if anyone does that in an objective way for all.

I'm not throwing stones from a glasshouse, you're just biased (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11458)(or just lack in knowledge).

You consider these people (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148990&postcount=10) European while you don't consider this woman (http://www.freewebs.com/alexfilm/WEDDING.JPG), European.

[Äike]

You ignored my suggestions and, by your own, you threw yourself to the troll's pit, by the combination of Ignorance about a matter and lack of insight to understand when you are entering unknown territories far away from your knowledge and possibilities. :(

Now you stink by your own. ;)


1.- Islamic troops of Spain were mainly Berbers, who are Europid. Arabian. Other easterns were MINORITY among the islamic invaders.

2.- In those years, the intermixing with INVADERS, who lived apart, was TABÚ among the Spaniards, not as happened in your eastern lands for thousands of years with the continuous invasions of Eastern people from the Steppes.
Intermarriage was not RARE but Impossible with the Islamic Invaders, not only by race, but by honor, religion and inherent xenophobia among the Iberians.
Let's ignore for now the further Famous Inquisición Española, that worked hard in the expulsion by EASY VISUAL IDENTIFICATION (read here phenotype) of "Moros" (moors, berbers mainly) among the Spaniards and jews.

3.- -AND MORE OBVIOUS- Iberia is LOCATED in the EXTREME WEST OF EUROPE and it's genetic pool is MAINLY WESTERN, from Celtiberians, Paradigm both of WESTERNERS, anciently living here from more than 10.000 years ago.


...

These 3 points are too obvious about our History that you, with your statements has proven to be an pestle, by talking stupidities about something you ignore... or a Troll.



NOTE: I don't like people tell stupidities and unfounded words about my people, family, history and Blood. The message per se (my dad is more eastern than a estonian dad) is unimportant to me, the disturbance is in seeing people speaking senseless words based in IGNORANCE. And seems everybody knows a lot about Spain... even a monkey.

Knowing own limits of knowledge as well as have criteria about the fidelity of its is always a good strategy to avoid shameful situations.

Calling a Spaniard "eastern", in some way as this man has done, is one of the most shameful forms of showing own limits.

I know that the Middle-Eastern influence in Iberia is small, I was arguing the claim that the Middle-Eastern influence in Iberia is the smallest in Europe(Iberia claimed that).

[Agrippa]

I'm not throwing stones from a glasshouse, you're just biased (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11458)(or just lack in knowledge).

You consider these people (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148990&postcount=10) European while you don't consider this woman (http://www.freewebs.com/alexfilm/WEDDING.JPG), European.

That was about populations and not individuals. Additionally, I doubt the 2nd guy from the right of the Cypriots is a Greek and even would his morphology be Europid at least.

The others look fairly normal.

Also that doesn't change anything about the North East and Eastbaltid-Lappoid variants.

[Aviane]

Anyway, you didn't even try to argue my claim, your post is just full of pointless rambling. You Southerners get worked up too easily, you should keep a cool head.

Agreed, seems that way for only those who are very always on the defensive and are sensitive to things that don't follow their thoughts.

It just ironic. :confused: :cool:

[Äike]

That was about populations and not individuals. Additionally, I doubt the 2nd guy from the right of the Cypriots is a Greek and even would his morphology be Europid at least.

The others look fairly normal.

Also that doesn't change anything about the North East and Eastbaltid-Lappoid variants.

As I said, you are either biased or lack in knowledge about the subject (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=150730&postcount=38) you're talking about.

If you don't consider the Mordvins to be European, then the Britons also aren't European in your eyes.

[Falkata]

Agreed, seems that way for only those who are very always on the defensive and are sensitive to things that don't follow their thoughts.

It just ironic. :confused: :cool:

the ones who are always on the defensive are the ones who are always attacked

[Don]

the ones who are always on the defensive are the ones who are always attacked

Attacked by the ignorance.

Even monkeys have opinions and know a lot about Spain.

http://www.innovatica.es/blog/wp-content/uploads/mono_pensador.jpg

[Ibericus]

Agreed, seems that way for only those who are very always on the defensive and are sensitive to things that don't follow their thoughts.

It just ironic. :confused: :cool:

"sensitive to troll, liers, manipulators and things that don't follow reality".
Thank you.

[Äike]

the ones who are always on the defensive are the ones who are always attacked

A Spaniard troll (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=217397&postcount=42) started all of this. There were no arguments nor ad-hominems before a Southern-European decided to call Norhtern-Europeans, Asian.

The Spaniards were the attacking side. I don't understand why do you guys hate us, Northern Europeans, so much.

[Äike]

Attacked by the ignorance.

Even monkeys have opinions and know a lot about Spain.

http://www.innovatica.es/blog/wp-content/uploads/mono_pensador.jpg

You're the ignorant troll who started all of this. You attacked with ignorance.

Mr. Obvious Troll (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?u=1061) posted pics of Japs on page 5 and said that Northern-Europeans are Asians.

If it wouldn't have been for your trollish post, then this thread would have died on page 5.

[Svanhild]

the modern name "Estonia" is related to the name which was given to this area in the Old Norse sagas. Estonia was called Esthland, because the Vikings of the East(Víkingr frá Esthland) came from here.
I can back this up. The German word for Estonia is Estland. Seems that it stayed the same all the time.

[Aviane]

You ignored my suggestions and, by your own, you threw yourself to the troll's pit, by the combination of Ignorance about a matter and lack of insight to understand when you are entering unknown territories far away from your knowledge and possibilities. :(

Now you stink by your own. ;)


1.- Islamic troops of Spain were mainly Berbers, who are Europid. Arabian. Other easterns were MINORITY among the islamic invaders.

2.- In those years, the intermixing with INVADERS, who lived apart, was TABÚ among the Spaniards, not as happened in your eastern lands for thousands of years with the continuous invasions of Eastern people from the Steppes.
Intermarriage was not RARE but Impossible with the Islamic Invaders, not only by race, but by honor, religion and inherent xenophobia among the Iberians.
Let's ignore for now the further Famous Inquisición Española, that worked hard in the expulsion by EASY VISUAL IDENTIFICATION (read here phenotype) of "Moros" (moors, berbers mainly) among the Spaniards and jews.

3.- -AND MORE OBVIOUS- Iberia is LOCATED in the EXTREME WEST OF EUROPE and it's genetic pool is MAINLY WESTERN, from Celtiberians, Paradigm both of WESTERNERS, anciently living here from more than 10.000 years ago.


...

These 3 points are too obvious about our History that you, with your statements has proven to be an pestle, by talking stupidities about something you ignore... or a Troll.



NOTE: I don't like people tell stupidities and unfounded words about my people, family, history and Blood. The message per se (my dad is more eastern than a estonian dad) is unimportant to me, the disturbance is in seeing people speaking senseless words based in IGNORANCE. And seems everybody knows a lot about Spain... even a monkey.

Knowing own limits of knowledge as well as have criteria about the fidelity of its is always a good strategy to avoid shameful situations.

Calling a Spaniard "eastern", in some way as this man has done, is one of the most shameful forms of showing own limits.

I've never heard people mention that much about the Iberian pennisula being known as a extreme Western European country, only mostly a Southern one instead, but perhaps it Western.

Well not everybody really knows a lot about Spain that much (including myself), you sounded sarcastic I think. People probably only go buy what they hear or read unfortunately from the media and other certain stuff but maybe there is more to Spain. :cool:

[Don]

A Spaniard troll (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=217397&postcount=42) started all of this. There were no arguments nor ad-hominems before a Southern-European decided to call Norhtern-Europeans, Asian.

The Spaniards were the attacking side. I don't understand why do you guys hate us, Northern Europeans, so much.

I dislike (not hate) ignorants that dare to talk lies about my proud family and history.

Again you show lack of understanding.

[Don]

A Spaniard troll (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=217397&postcount=42) started all of this. There were no arguments nor ad-hominems before a Southern-European decided to call Norhtern-Europeans, Asian.

The Spaniards were the attacking side. I don't understand why do you guys hate us, Northern Europeans, so much.

We -as everybody- dislike (not hate) ignorants that dare to talk lies about our proud and ancient people and its huge history.

Usually, Spaniards have nothing against estonians, the worst attitude towards them is look at them over the shoulder as some people somewhere east (that is the general idea), unimportant but harmful as well, not hate them. That is reserved to moors mainly.

Again you show lack of understanding.

[Ibericus]

I've never heard people mention that much about the Iberian pennisula being known as a extreme Western European country, only mostly a Southern one instead, but perhaps it Western.

Iberia is in Western Europe. Geography lesson :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Western_Europe_map.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

Western EUropean Union :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/WEU_Map.svg/680px-WEU_Map.svg.png

[Äike]

I dislike (not hate) ignorants that dare to talk lies about my proud family and history.

Again you show lack of understanding.

You started telling lies about my family(Northern-Europeans) only after you successfully trolled this thread, the topic about the Middle-Easternerss of Spaniards started, because another troll claimed that the area which was ruled by Muslims for 500+ years, had the lowest levels of Arab influence in Europe.

[Aviane]

the ones who are always on the defensive are the ones who are always attacked

Well sometimes but not always.

[Äike]

Iberia is in Western Europe. Geography lesson :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Western_Europe_map.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

lol at Finland being Western-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Western_Europe_map.svg)...

Anyway, look at this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/SEurope.png

Edit: More maps!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/SEUROPE.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Southern-Europe-map.png

[Svanhild]

Iberia is in Western Europe. Geography lesson :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Western_Europe_map.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

It's different in my country. Here's the common German definition of Südeuropa, Southern Europe.

http://www.erlebnisreisen-abenteuerreisen.de/fileadmin/img/suedeuropa.jpg

[Falkata]

I've never heard people mention that much about the Iberian pennisula being known as a extreme Western European country, only mostly a Southern one instead, but perhaps it Western.


When i look through my window i see the Atlantic Ocean, so yes, "perhaps" it´s western. Actually if i lived more in the west i´d be in the US

http://www.galiciacity.com/servicios/mapas/europa.gif

[Ibericus]

lol at Finland being Western-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Western_Europe_map.svg)...

Anyway, look at this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/SEurope.png

Geography lesson number 2 :

South + West = southwestern Europe :

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Southwestern_Europe&redirect=no


Western EUropean Union , in Red :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/WEU_Map.svg/680px-WEU_Map.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union

[Aramis]

It's different in my country. Here's the common German definition of Südeuropa, Southern Europe.

http://www.erlebnisreisen-abenteuerreisen.de/fileadmin/img/suedeuropa.jpg

That's a geopolitical map. There are different ones (http://www.deuframat.de/deuframat/images/1/1_2/schultz/pic30.jpg) (from Germany) as well.

If Slovenia is southern, so is Austria.

[Falkata]

I´d add that Estonia is not considered North Europe here neither, but the east.
North Europe for us is composed by Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland.

[Ibericus]

Apart from the Isles (British and Iceland) , the most Western part of continental Europe is Iberia. If that's is not Western, im a Papuan

[Aramis]

I´d add that Estonia is not considered North Europe here neither, but the east.
North Europe for us is composed by Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland.

Same here.

[Aviane]

Iberia is in Western Europe. Geography lesson :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Western_Europe_map.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

Western EUropean Union :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/WEU_Map.svg/680px-WEU_Map.svg.png

You are right in part it's considered part of Western Europe but it is also shown as Southern. :)

[Äike]

I´d add that Estonia is not considered North Europe here neither, but the east.
North Europe for us is composed by Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland.

I live more North then all of Danes and the majority of Swedes, also the Estonian culture is Northern-European. Even calling the Balts, Eastern European, would be a stretch.

And if Finland is considered Western-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Western_Europe_map.svg) by some(lol), then Estonia could also be Western-European. As Finns and Estonians are quite similar.

More maps about Southern Europe:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/SEUROPE.jpg

Blue: Northern Europe
Light blue: Western European
Green: Southern European
Red: Eastern European
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Southern-Europe-map.png

[Svanhild]

That's a geopolitical map. There are different ones (http://www.deuframat.de/deuframat/images/1/1_2/schultz/pic30.jpg) (from Germany) as well.

If Slovenia is southern, so is Austria.

Slovenia is southern of Austria.

Truth be told, Germany isn't Western European. We're Central European. Let me inform you about the fact that it's common sense in almost all Central and Northern European countries that everything what's on the southern side of the Alpes and an imaginary line western and eastern of it is considered as Southern European.

You could argue about the question if Spain is Southern Europe or Southwest Europe but the former word is the stronger indicator. That's why it goes as Southwest and not as Westsouth. :wink

I'm afraid that you can tell what you want, Spain is considered as Southern Europe or Southwestern Europe here. In Germany and I'm sure in Estonia as well.

[Ibericus]

So , the most Western part of continental Europe is not considered Western for you..Brilliant.

[Aviane]

.

More maps about Southern Europe:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/SEUROPE.jpg

Blue: Northern Europe
Light blue: Western European
Green: Southern European
Red: Eastern European
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Southern-Europe-map.png

That second map especially was the one I meant it's shown as Southern.

[Aramis]

I live more North then all of Danes and the majority of Swedes, also the Estonian culture is Northern-European. Even calling the Balts, Eastern European, would be a stretch.

And if Finland is considered Western-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Western_Europe_map.svg) by some(lol), then Estonia could also be Western-European. As Finns and Estonians are quite similar.

Well, like it or not, we consider Balts to be eastern. As much as you think of Spaniards to be solely southerns.

[Falkata]

British isles are not considered North Europe neither and Germany and Austria are considered Central Europe. Those maps look kind of random

Anyway, im telling you I can´t live more in the west because i´d fall into the sea.

[Äike]

Well, like it or not, we consider Balts to be eastern. As much as you think of Spaniards to be solely southerns.

I consider Balts to be Northern-European/Eastern-European, Lithuanians being more Eastern-European.

While Estonians are culturally different from the Balts, we're quite Northern-European.

Why did you bring Balts into the conversation, when we were talking about Estonians? Balts don't have anything to do with Estonians.

[Pallantides]

Nord Europa
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Nordeuropa.png

[Ibericus]

Actually the distance between Greece and Spain, is the same between Spain and Denmark, it's ridiculous. Greece is Eastern Europe.

[Aramis]

Why did you bring Balts into the conversation, when we were talking about Estonians?

Because we consider you to be Balts.

[Aviane]

British isles are not considered North Europe neither and Germany and Austria are considered Central Europe. Those maps look kind of random

Anyway, im telling you I can´t live more in the west because i´d fall into the sea.

I always thought of the British Isles as more Western and with Germany and Austria fits with what you just layed out (Central Europe). :cool:

[Falkata]

Poland is considered like "east" too for us , so noway the 3 baltic republics or north Russia is considered as "North Europe" I fear

This is what most people understand by north and east

http://www.cumorah.com/atlas/area/AREurope.gif

[Äike]

Because we consider you to be Balts.

I consider you to be a retard. I don't speak a Baltic/Indo-European language. There are few things that can piss me off more then someone calling me a Balt.

I don't speak a word of Latvian nor Lithuanian.

Definition of Balts:

The Balts or Baltic peoples (People who live by the Baltic Sea), defined as speakers of one of the Baltic languages, a branch of the Indo-European language family, are descended from a group of Indo-European tribes who settled the area between the Jutland peninsula in the west and Moscow, Oka and Volga rivers basins in the east.

Aramis, you are more of a Balt, then I am.

[Don]

http://iusedtohavehair.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/confused.jpg


You are falling deep down in the pit, man.



Beaker culture


The Bell-Beaker culture, ca. 2400 – 1800 BC,[1] is the term for a widely scattered cultural phenomenon of prehistoric western Europe starting in the late Neolithic or Chalcolithic running into the early Bronze Age.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture


Let's study some of BASES of our CULTURES, shamefully, some members here don't even know.

I recognize that a Estonian, since is not From Western Europe, maybe don't know a fuck about our Cultural and Ethnic elements, since he is foreigner... but then he shouldn't enter to discuss matters away from his knowledge.

Let's learn a little about the neighbor before speaking about him, the basics at least.

And shut up in the meantime.

Ok? :thumb001:

[Svanhild]

Common sense in Germany and I'm sure in almost all other countries:

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/1120/neu1g.jpg

Southern of the black line (Alpes): Southern Europe, including Southwestern and Southeastern Europe
Northern of the black line (Alpes): Either Central or Northern Europe

End of debate. :coffee:

[Falkata]

North Europe map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/6/69/20080114164340%21Europe_North-European_countries_map.png

[Falkata]

Common sense in Germany and I'm sure in almost all other countries:

Southern of the black line (Alpes): Southern Europe, including Southwestern and Southeastern Europe
Northern of the black line (Alpes): Either Central or Northern Europe

End of debate. :coffee:



This is very cool and all, but nobody refers as Russia or Ukrania as "northern" countries, but eastern ones

[hajduk]

You're the ignorant troll who started all of this. You attacked with ignorance.

Mr. Obvious Troll (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?u=1061) posted pics of Japs on page 5 and said that Northern-Europeans are Asians.

If it wouldn't have been for your trollish post, then this thread would have died on page 5.

Every european country has small percentage of non white influences.
If you don't acknowledge that you are ignorant or blind.

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Everyone%20Else/images/Bjork-newsweek.jpg

http://www.werner-daehn.com/site_media/photologue/photos/cache/nr34_full_size.jpg

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/6154/kristofferjoner11715550.jpg
http://www.pokeritahti.fi/Galleria/Pelaajakuvat/Ammattipelaajat/juha-helppi.jpg
http://autoracingsport.com/wp-content/uploads/formula1/hakkinen2.jpg

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/11/09/finland11.jpg

non white italian
http://www.ih.k12.oh.us/msbellb/physical_geography_of_ancient_ro_files/image010.jpg

non white spaniard
http://eatmygoal.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/xavi_hernxndez.jpg
non white bulgarian
http://www.slava.bg/images/profils/146/balakov_s.jpg

[Aramis]

Poland is considered like "east" too for us , so noway the 3 baltic republics or north Russia is considered as "North Europe" I fear

This is what most people understand by north and east

http://www.cumorah.com/atlas/area/AREurope.gif

Croatia is western, yet Hungaria east? There is a northern, but no southern Europe. etc.

Huh? :tongue


I consider you to be a retard. I don't speak a Baltic/Indo-European language. There are few things that can piss me off more then someone calling me a Balt.

Well thank you :embarrassed

Cool down "northern", then we can talk. You seem to be the biased one, as you didn't get a very simple point.

[Amapola]

A Spaniard troll (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=217397&postcount=42) started all of this. There were no arguments nor ad-hominems before a Southern-European decided to call Norhtern-Europeans, Asian.

The Spaniards were the attacking side. I don't understand why do you guys hate us, Northern Europeans, so much.

Well, karl, there is not a real hate after all... nor North-South neither East- West... at least nothing that it not stereotypically forums-induced, taking into consideration some patriotic and nationalist tendencies of many members of these kind of forums. I can only speak from a West-Southern viewpoint, all I can say is that people here don't really know the North of Europe (most Spaniards go to the UK instead), except for maybe some hols trips, and by no means they have a negative image or attitude towards them, rather the opposite they are set as examples and models to follow in many aspects. There are surely sterotypes like people from the North have about poeple from the South or -any other direction-, but I never noticed a battle attitude or tendency, on the other hand, I think Southerners tend to be quite welcoming just as Northerners are. Forums is not real life.

[Zyklop]

Slovenia is southern of Austria.

Truth be told, Germany isn't Western European. We're Central European. Let me inform you about the fact that it's common sense in almost all Central and Northern European countries that everything what's on the southern side of the Alpes and an imaginary line western and eastern of it is considered as Southern European.More precisely, everything that borders on the Mediterranean sea and/or is mostly influenced by Mediterranean cultures.

[Ibericus]

Geograpy Lesson : What is the Western-most point in continental Europe?

Answer : The furthest westerly point on the mainland continent is Cabo da Roca in Portugal.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_most_western_point_in_Europe


:thumbs up

[Pallantides]

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/6154/kristofferjoner11715550.jpg


Wait what... Kristoffer Joner just looks like some average slightly neurotic Norwegian chap... :confused:
http://www.filmweb.no/bilder/multimedia/archive/00127/Kristoffer_Joner__C_127476a.jpg

[Svanhild]

This is very cool and all, but nobody refers as Russia or Ukrania as "northern" countries, but eastern ones
That's because I wanted to show the border between what we consider Northern and Southern Europe only. I could re-draw the map for you and include a border for Central and Eastern European countries. :rolleyes:

[Falkata]

More precisely, everything that borders on the Mediterranean sea and/or is mostly influenced by Mediterranean cultures.

All Europe is influenced by mediterranean cultures. Greece and Rome are the basis of this continent.
Portugal doesn´t border the med sea

[Falkata]

That's because I wanted to show the border between what we consider Northern and Southern Europe only. I could re-draw the map for you and include a border for Central and Eastern European countries. :rolleyes:

It would be great, i know germans were hardworkers but not that much

[Äike]

Croatia is western, yet Hungaria east? There is a northern, but no southern Europe. etc.

Huh? :tongue



Well thank you :embarrassed

Cool down "northern", then we can talk. You seem to be the biased one, as you didn't get a very simple point.

You called me and Estonians Balts... You do know that we don't speak a Baltic language? Thus we aren't Balts.

Also read my other post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=210881&postcount=980) in the "what grinds your gears" thread.

[Pallantides]

http://autoracingsport.com/wp-content/uploads/formula1/hakkinen2.jpg


...Mika Häkkinen is non-white?

oh shit then someone must inform Cail that he is non-white. :D

[Agrippa]

As I said, you are either biased or lack in knowledge about the subject (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=150730&postcount=38) you're talking about.

If you don't consider the Mordvins to be European, then the Britons also aren't European in your eyes.

Even then I wrote about the Mordvins, if I remember correctly, that I'm not sure about their case, but voted in the poll against them.

I might reconsider that decision in face of new facts and they seem to be rather on the European side from what I can say right now, but inside of the European spectrum rather Baltid-Eastbaltid of course.

Probably you make up a thread about those people if you like? More images, genetic studies if available etc.?

If you are an expert on those lesser known people, just come up with it.

To compare the Mordvins with the Britons is a bad joke though...


The last dispute is somehow "stupid" - sorry, can't say something different.

Obviously Spain is in the West AND in the South. So if talking about "Western Europe", you should include Spain, if you speak about "Southern Europe" - surprise, surprise, Spain is in too!

After all we have 4 orientations and a state like California is also in the South-West and one can hardly try to say "it's not in the South" or "it's not in the West", because both is true the same time.

Estonia on the other hand is usually considered North Eastern Europe, but most of the time not included in what we might consider Northern Europe in general, but I guess also for political reasons and commonly Northern Europe being more restricted to Fennoscandia.

[Ibericus]

More precisely, everything that borders on the Mediterranean sea and/or is mostly influenced by Mediterranean cultures.
Iberia has as much Atlantic coastline as mediterranean :

1,660 km (1,030 mi) on the Mediterranean side and 1,653 km (1,027 mi) on the Atlantic side

[Aramis]

Slovenia is southern of Austria.

And Germany is north of Austria. Very good.


You could argue about the question if Spain is Southern Europe or Southwest Europe but the former word is the stronger indicator. That's why it goes as Southwest and not as Westsouth. :wink

I never argued Spain to be solely western.


I'm afraid that you can tell what you want, Spain is considered as Southern Europe or Southwestern Europe here. In Germany and I'm sure in Estonia as well.

Is this supposed to be an argument? Let me show you its (ir)relevance, by altering it, as to sound like coming from a common south-eastern European:


I am afraid you can tell what you want, Germany is concidered as western European here.

[Äike]

Even then I wrote about the Mordvins, if I remember correctly, that I'm not sure about their case, but voted in the poll against them.

I might reconsider that decision in face of new facts and they seem to be rather on the European side from what I can say right now, but inside of the European spectrum rather Baltid-Eastbaltid of course.

Probably you make up a thread about those people if you like? More images, genetic studies if available etc.?

If you are an expert on those lesser known people, just come up with it.

To compare the Mordvins with the Britons is a bad joke though...


I don't know so much about the Mordvins. Osweo would be more qualified(I think).

The Finno-Ugrics near the Urals are quite distant to me and probably to other Estonians also. The only group who I actually have seen in large numbers are the Udmurts.

[Aramis]

You called me and Estonians Balts... You do know that we don't speak a Baltic language? Thus we aren't Balts.

That's all fine, but it doesn't change the public opinion in my region (Estonians being Balts), inasmuch as the fact Spain not being solely southern European doesn't seem to change yours.


Also read my other post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=210881&postcount=980) in the "what grinds your gears" thread.

Great for you.

[Zyklop]

All Europe is influenced by mediterranean cultures. Greece and Rome are the basis of this continent. Some are more influenced than others, though. Language, way of life, even climate plays a role too for the general perception of what's considered "southern".

Portugal doesn´t border the med seaIsn't Portugal mostly an offshoot of Spain, like Switzerland is one from Germany?

[Svanhild]

It would be great, i know germans were hardworkers but not that much

You're welcome. :cool:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8074/neu3is.jpg

Southern of the horizontal line: Southern, Southwest or Southeast Europe
Northern of the horizontal line: Either Central, Northern, Northeast or East Europe

[Äike]

That's all fine, but it doesn't change the public opinion in my region (Estonians being Balts), inasmuch as the fact Spain not being solely southern European doesn't seem to change yours.

I don't know about your country's education system, but as far as I remember, I learned about all the linguistic groups of Europe in Primary school. The public opinion in your region shows a low level of education.



Great for you.

:)

[Don]

Seems there is a senseless reaction of many non Spaniards members to recognize the importance of the WEST-EAST axis in the conformation of EurAsia cultures and ethnic groups.

It is surprising after the evidences of the geography of our Continent show a West-East configuration, totally coherent with the cultural and ethnic groups according to this Axis. Irish and Spaniard people, their ancient buildings and the major part of their Folklore are more than similar, compared to cultures from Eastern regions.

The cultural and racial differences are higher in EURASIA attending to EAST-WEST axis than to NORTH-SOUTH one, this last originated by politics and religion, mainly by protestantism/catholicism and by the extrapolation of the AMERICA contest, clearly a NORTH-SOUTH configurated land, contrary to EURASIA.

I can't understand what madness carry some members to even discuss the Western Essence of Spain. Ignorance? No, they only need to take a look at a map. See Atlantic. See the geographical configuration of Eurasia... I'm really AMAZED.

By the way, maybe some of these should do the Camino de Santiago, propper of our european cultures, to the FINISTERRE (end of wolrd) in the Western Extrem of The known World, a peregrination to the Limits, that every european NEEDS to do sometime... and it takes to the Spain.

But I warn that some of these curious people will discover an unknown country in Spain that don't fits in their Fantastic (as they prove they have) and Irreal Image they have.


http://www.viajejet.com/wp-content/viajes/mapa-del-camino-de-santiago.jpg

http://fotos0.mundofotos.net/2009/11_01_2009/redi1231678627/asturias.jpg

http://www.jorgetutor.com/spain/asturias/asturias1.jpg

http://www.pentatlonmoderno.org/fotos%20pentatlon/reconocimientos%20deporte%20asturiano%2007.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UE5Hiih9w0g/S5a5vTHXBlI/AAAAAAAAANQ/xZlcI68bPgs/s400/Copia+de+Gaiteiros+a+Mondoñedo.JPG

Constructive.


DISCOVERING THE WEST.

[Ibericus]

Some are more influenced than others, though. Language, way of life, even climate plays a role too for the general perception of what's considered "southern".
LOL as if all southern europe had all the same climate. The climate of
Atlantic Iberia or central Iberia is very different than the climate of Greece, for example. Every winter in Madrid and half of Iberia snows, this doesn't happen in Greece or Southern Italy. It's a continental/Atlantic climate.

[Aramis]

You're welcome. :cool:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8074/neu3is.jpg

Southern of the horizontal line: Southern Europe
Northern of the horizontal line: Either Central, Northern or Northeast Europe

Where are the south-western, south-central, north-eastern, north-western, central-eastern and central-western ones? :eusa_shifty:

[Pallantides]

Mordvins
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/MrdvnImg1.jpg
http://www.veresk.ru/commands/torama/30.jpg
http://gov.cap.ru/home/chuv_adm/album/2003/rodnik/P6236334.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Erzya_women.jpg
http://www.museum.nnov.ru/CultTour/ctimg/l988f.jpg
http://s41.radikal.ru/i092/0811/6b/328a258d52d2.jpg
http://image075.mylivepage.ru/chunk75/1948422/1562/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%B0.jpg

[Aramis]

I don't know about your country's education system, but as far as I remember, I learned about all the linguistic groups of Europe in Primary school. The public opinion in your region shows a low level of education.

Yea, it's kind of miserable. But don't worry much about my region. Rather spend your energy and time by educating Estonians on the subject of Spain (if interested), as they seem to show an ignorance about the basic informations.

Godspeed!

[Svanhild]

Where are the south-western, south-central, north-eastern, north-western, central-eastern and central-western ones? :eusa_shifty:
I'm not going to draw these lines now. :p

South-Western: Spain, Portugal, Andorra
South-Central: Southern France and Italy
North-Eastern: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
Eastern: Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Russia, Ukraine, et cetera
North-Western: England, Ireland
Northern: Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland
Central: Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein

Central-Eastern and Central-Western are non-existent definitions.

[Ibericus]

I've noticed that nordicists are eager to not consider Iberia as western Europe, even though Portugal has the western-most point of continental Europe. I can imagine the reasons behind it.

[Aramis]

I'm not going to draw these lines now. :p

South-Western: Spain, Portugal, Andorra.
South-Central: Southern France and Italy
North-Eastern: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
Eastern: Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Russia, Ukraine, et cetera
North Western: England, Ireland
Northern: Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland

Central-Eastern and Central-Western are non-existent definitions and not common.

Good. I'd also like to add that further tendencies show Turks becoming pan-European, with Germany being their west-central headquarter.

[Svanhild]

I've noticed that nordicists are eager to not consider Iberia as western Europe, even though Portugal has the western-most point of continental Europe. I can imagine the reasons behind it.
Do I have to repeat myself? The Alpes are the benchmark of Europe in cultural and geographical matters. Southern of the line is Southern Europe, northern of the line the Northern and Central parts of Europe.

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5429/neu1s.jpg

Spain is entirely southern of the line, thus Southern or South-Western Europe.

South-Western: Spain, Portugal, Andorra
South-Central: Southern France and Italy
South-Eastern: All Balkan countries
North-Eastern: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
Eastern: Poland, Czech republic, Slovakia, Russia, Ukraine, et cetera
North-Western: England, Ireland
Northern: Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland
Central: Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein

[Falkata]

Some are more influenced than others, though. Language, way of life, even climate plays a role too for the general perception of what's considered "southern".
Isn't Portugal mostly an offshoot of Spain, like Switzerland is one from Germany?

I think my language, culture, history or way of life is closer to France than to Bulgaria or Bosnia. Climate? It´s atlantic/oceanic in my region.
I dont know if portugueses would like to hear your last statement btw :D

[Aramis]

This thread hasn't got anything to do with hair anymore!

I'll give you an idea of mine as food for thoughts:

Hairiness is in a proportional rate to laziness.

Yes or no?

[Falkata]

This thread hasn't got anything to do with hair anymore!

I'll give you an idea of mine as food for thoughts:

Hairiness is in a proportional rate to laziness.

Yes or no?

Negros are more hardworker than germans? :eek::p

I like this btw http://www.fuckyou.com/images/smilies/bananallama.gif
http://www.fuckyou.com/images/smilies/bananallama.gif

[Don]

I think my language, culture, history or way of life is closer to France than to Bulgaria or Bosnia. Climate? It´s atlantic/oceanic in my region.
I dont know if portugueses would like to hear your last statement btw :D

SEEMS SOME NORDICISTAS DON'T ALLOW US TO BE WHO WE ARE AND HAVE BEEN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS , EVEN BEFORE THESE NEWCOMERS TO EUROPE WENT NORTH AND CAME TO EUROPE FROM ASIA AFTER WURM'S



http://www.laopinon.cl/tmp_images/372/noticia_18552_normal.jpg
THIS IS A MADNESS!

[Stefan]

I think these maps represent the Atlantic parts of Iberia pretty well. If we look at pre roman expansion, Iberians had much more cultural similarities(at least) with other Western Europeans than Southern Europeans as a whole, which seems much more divided than Northern/Central Europe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Floristic_regions_in_Europe_(english).png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Atlantic-Europe.jpg/485px-Atlantic-Europe.jpg

[Falkata]

The fact is that something called "South Europe" is just a geographic concept, The relation between portugueses with albanians or spaniards with bulgarians is basically unexistant. It´s not because we hate each other, it´s just probably that many people would have problems to even locate them in a map.

[Zyklop]

I dont know if portugueses would like to hear your last statement btw :DI actually was asking a question.
One also doesn't need to stress nordicism. It's simply a fact that in Germany, and probably in most other countries, Spain and Italy would come to mind first when asked about Southern Europe. Media, travel agencies, etc. all classify them as such. It's not that they have ill intentions by doing so.

Regarding climate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_climate

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/SEUROPE3.jpg/800px-SEUROPE3.jpg

[Ibericus]

Do I have to repeat myself? The Alpes are the benchmark of Europe in cultural and geographical matters.
Who says this ??


Southern of the line is Southern Europe, northern of the line the Northern and Central parts of Europe.
My ass

[Falkata]

I actually was asking a question.
One also doesn't need to stress nordicism. It's simply a fact that in Germany, and probably in most other countries, Spain and Italy would come to mind first when asked about Southern Europe. Media, travel agencies, etc. all classify them as such. It's not that they have ill intentions by doing so.

Regarding climate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_climate

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/SEUROPE3.jpg/800px-SEUROPE3.jpg

Indeed, because Spain or Italy are southern countries too. But also westerns, specially in our case. Also germans and other tourists are more attracted to come here if you think that this is some kind of European Caribe instead of if we showed you the (less exotic) reality.
There aren´t more links with Serbia than with Germany because "south europe" is very far from being something remotely homogeneous.

Regarding climate you can see in your own map that the majority of Spain is not painted in red

[Aviane]

I actually was asking a question.
One also doesn't need to stress nordicism. It's simply a fact that in Germany, and probably in most other countries, Spain and Italy would come to mind first when asked about Southern Europe. Media, travel agencies, etc. all classify them as such. It's not that they have ill intentions by doing so.

Yes generally most people would think of Spain and Italy as Southern Europe and that what comes to mind when us people think of those countries, so Nordicism is really nothing to do with this.

Anyway I will let this thread get back on topic.

[Ibericus]

Yes, nordicists live in a fantasy world. They think of southern Europe as a homogeneus block. Far from it. The reality is, in Spain we have a different climate (see map above) the majority of Spain has not a meditarranean climate, but Atlantic/continental with very cold winters and snow. And a western culture since ancient times with the Megalithic and Bell beaker cultures that continues until today. We have nothing in common with Greece, which has a Balkanic and Eastern Mediterranean culture, a different climate, nor Serbia or Bulgaria.

[Breedingvariety]

Many lithuanians are primitive looking. Most are bland looking. Rarely are they what you could call progressive. And I don't care weather you call them northern or eastern. Geographical location isn't what matters most.

[Agrippa]

http://s41.radikal.ru/i092/0811/6b/328a258d52d2.jpg

Left and middle one are clearly Europid, left little mixed probably, right mixed - about 50 : 50 with Sibirid.

Most others are normal Osteuropids, certain number of Eastbaltids. Look European, but with a certain Mongoloid input in some.


I've noticed that nordicists are eager to not consider Iberia as western Europe, even though Portugal has the western-most point of continental Europe. I can imagine the reasons behind it.

Seriously its geography. Obviously, but genetic and culture, Iberia is Western European (Atlantic facade, Western type, Western Catholic culture etc.).

Thats also a reason to not put the Balticum into Eastern Europe that easily (Protestant-Catholic).

If going after the big picture, Eastern Central Europe is about Slavs and Hungarians of largely Western cultural-religious affiliations and "the real East" starts with the Slavic Orthodox.

My map about climate-racial relations:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3295&stc=1&d=1259938302

From this thread:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11365

[Zyklop]

Indeed, because Spain or Italy are southern countries too. But also westerns, specially in our case. Also germans and other tourists are more attracted to come here if you think that this is some kind of European Caribe instead of if we showed you the (less exotic) reality.

Regarding climate you can see in your own map that the majority of Spain is not painted in redWhat I was trying to say is that this is how it's perceived by most, or what is seen as most noticeable. Over here, aside from the geographic position, the "South" generally is equalled with milder climate, a more relaxed way of life, beaches, etc. All the Southern European countries display this, regardless of the regional variety that may exist inlands, and which surely is more important and noticeable for the natives. For some people the British Isles are Northern European or the Czechs and Poles Central European, which they definitely are not considered as in Germany.

[Pallantides]

Many lithuanians are primitive looking. Most are bland looking.


So same as Norwegians

I think many Norwegians have caveman like features:
http://img.nrk.no/img/299778.jpeg
http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2006/04/21/1145612730591_291.jpg
http://tromsoby.no/file/images/Vamp.preview.jpg

No wonder the Danes call us "fjell aper"(mountain apes) :p

http://www.bokia.se/jackets/large/77/9789189632677.jpg
F-3WGellh5A

[Don]

Regarding climate you can see in your own map that the majority of Spain is not painted in red

Castilla, my homeland and by their grave and serious character are antithesis of the Funny Fiesta People that some ignorants associate to the whole Spain, conforms the Plateau and is in the picture at the Limits of the Mediterranean climate.

Yes, in Spain there is a Huge Plateau (mainly conforming castilla), high over the Sea level... and it's dwellers, anciently Celtic tribes, are higher over the sea level of most parts of Europe.

Should be a good Idea ask or at least take a look at the notations and documents of Romans Troops that conquered after centuries and never totally, Iberia about their inhabitants and the wheather of most parts: the plateau or Meseta.

The romans were mainly Mediterranean and "Southern" europeans and they had a different opinion about Iberia (and deeper and richer one, of course) than many ignorant modern Europeans.

They not only died by falcatas and other Celtiberian Weapons, known to be lethal and perfectly used by these fierce dwellers of Iberia.
"The Spaniards are the unique truly brave Mediterranean people." Adolf Hitler.

They died by thousands FROZEN.

Spanish weather found in major parts of its lands, not only the tourist mediterranean ones, the ones known by the tourist cattle-that generalizes about a Huge and highly variated ancient land as is Spain, knowing only a minimal part -mostly artificial- of one of the regions-, is all but Southerner.

It's ATLANTIC WEATHER. Castille's winters are not found anywhere in other mediterranean countries.

Remember that Atlantic is "a little" bigger than Mediterranean, the cradle of our cultures, and it's influence in the weather of Spain and by consequence, it's people, who dwelt here for thousands of years, something that didn't happened in most of european countries, if we like to compare... its quite important, specially if we take a look at Europe map and see that IBERIA is a Ram, proudly entering into the Atlantic core. The west.

http://www.hormiga.org/fondosescritorio/wallpapers/La-Naturaleza/Asturias/Paisajes-Asturias.jpg

[Agrippa]

For some people the British Isles are Northern European or the Czechs and Poles Central European, which they definitely are not considered as in Germany.

Well, usually Czechs are obviously part of Central Europe, that region was even part of the Empire and genetically they are also closer to Germans than others further East, I never heard otherwise. Poles are more Eastern of course and Poland today was to a large part German in the past as you know...

Eastern Central - Ostmitteleuropa (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostmitteleuropa) - is what I usually asociate with both.

Mitteleuropa:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Mitteleuropa2.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Mitteleuropa2.png

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitteleuropa

They also offer alternative versions on Wikipedia, but Poland is always included, Czechs of course too.

This map after cultural borderlines is also quite useful in its own right:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png

[Falkata]

What I was trying to say is that this is how it's perceived by most, or what is seen as most noticeable. Over here, aside from the geographic position, the "South" generally is equalled with milder climate, a more relaxed way of life, beaches, etc. All the Southern European countries display this, regardless of the regional variety that may exist inlands, and which surely is more important and noticeable for the natives. For some people the British Isles are Northern European or the Czechs and Poles Central European, which they definitely are not considered as in Germany.

Display what exactly? Beaches? lol come on, this is not serious. There are beaches in every country with coast. Go to the UK or Denmark and you´ll find them too.
Relaxed way of life? mm I think Finland is way more relaxed than Spain or Italy for example.
Milder climate yeah, due to the geographical position as I´ve said, but believe me that it´s not as different as you think. Castillian´s winters are the opposite of warm and Galicia´s average rainfall is similar to France or UK. Madrid is 750m above the sea level and hundreds of km away from the sea, Avila 1131m, Segovia 1005m,Leon 845m, Burgos 856m...
As you can imagine, you can´t expect very warm winters in those cities.

[Zyklop]

Well, usually Czechs are obviously part of Central Europe, that region was even part of the Empire and genetically they are also closer to Germans than others further East, I never heard otherwise.I agree that Germans and Czechs are quite close and always have been historically. Nonetheless, someone with an Czech accent still is considered having an Eastern European accent, just like Poles or Russians. This too influences the general perception.

This map after cultural borderlines is also quite useful in its own right:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.pngAgreed on the South and West but the Baltic countries surely are not Central European by any stretch of imagination.

[Ibericus]

Climate of Spain, far from being homogeneus :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Spain-climate-en.png

[Pallantides]

This what I found when I googled 'Naken Nordmann'(Naked Norwegian:D)
http://www.dagfinnkolberg.net/images/omdagfinn/Naken-Spatnek.jpg

[Don]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png


LOL

Look at the magic turn of the line that marks western Europe when arriving Pirinees!!!!!


LOL

SOUTH and WEST are incompatible!

SOUTHWEST DON'T EVEN EXIST!

LOL

This is a madness...ridiculous! The guy that made this map don't knows a fuck about Spain.:)

[Ibericus]

Yes, the lines of this map are hilarious...They are in denial

[Zyklop]

Display what exactly? Beaches? lol come on, this is not serious. There are beaches in every country with coast. Go to the UK or Denmark and you´ll find them too.
Relaxed way of life? mm I think Finland is way more relaxed than Spain or Italy for example.
Milder climate yeah, due to the geographical position as I´ve said, but believe me that it´s not as different as you think. Castillian´s winters are the opposite of warm and Galicia´s average rainfall is similar to France or UK. Madrid is 750m above the sea level and hundreds of km away from the sea, Avila 1131m, Segovia 1005m,Leon 845m, Burgos 856m...
As you can imagine, you can´t expect very warm winters in those cities.That's what you see as an insider, but for people coming from colder regions themselves the beaches are more outstanding and what they will associate most with a country. And the Mediterranean climate also influences the cuisine of the region, wine is generally associated with Southern Europe, so is the use olive oil. I think it should be understandable that these definitions of West, East or South are dependant of where someone is coming from himself and what he notices as exotic, not what he sees as common.

[Ibericus]

That's what you see as an insider, but for people coming from colder regions themselves the beaches are more outstanding and what they will associate most with a country. And the Mediterranean climate also influences the cuisine of the region, wine is generally associated with Southern Europe, so is the use olive oil. I think it should be understandable that these definitions of West, East or South are dependant of where someone is coming from himself and what he notices as exotic, not what he sees as common.
In the winter, the average temperature of interior Spain is pretty much the same as in Belgium, for example. About 2/3 of Spain in the winter is covered by snow every fuckin year. Most tourists only go in the summer and to the mediterranean coastline of Spain, which is the only part that has a pure meditarrenan climate. One thing is the marketing for tourism, another thing is REALITY. Northern europeans live in a bubble of fiesta and playa.

[Breedingvariety]

So same as Norwegians
They might as well be lithuanians, especially if they were less masculine:

[Falkata]

That's what you see as an insider, but for people coming from colder regions themselves the beaches are more outstanding and what they will associate most with a country. And the Mediterranean climate also influences the cuisine of the region, wine is generally associated with Southern Europe, so is the use olive oil. I think it should be understandable that these definitions of West, East or South are dependant of where someone is coming from himself and what he notices as exotic, not what he sees as common.

Because you come as tourists to the touristic places in the mediterranean and in the islands.
Do you really think that the germans who come to Mallorca or Ibiza one week in summer can have a decent opinion about how is Spain? The mediterranean beaches are crap usually by the way, the ones in the north are way more beautiful but totally unknown because the cattle (aka, cheap tourism) never travel there. As Iberia said, tourists are in a buble. They just visit a few places and they made the show for them (flamenco shows in Castilla, Sevillanas dancers in Galicia as souvenirs, Mexicans hats in Catalonia... all the stupidness that you can imagine for the low class tourism)
It´s like if I ´ve travelled to Cancun and i thought that all Mexico is like it.

[Breedingvariety]

So same as Norwegians
One man I know looks similar. He has lower forehead, though. You can encounter lithuanians like that rarely. I consider them influance from southeast europe. Or are they?

[Zyklop]

Because you come as tourists to the touristic places in the mediterranean and in the islands.
Do you really think that the germans who come to Mallorca or Ibiza one week in summer can have a decent opinion about how is Spain? The mediterranean beaches are crap usually by the way, the ones in the north are way more beautiful but totally unknown because the cattle (aka, cheap tourism) never travel there. As Iberia said, tourists are in a buble. They just visit a few places and they made the show for them (flamenco shows in Castilla, Sevillanas dancers in Galicia as souvenirs, Mexicans hats in Catalonia... all the stupidness that you can imagine for the low class tourism)
It´s like if I ´ve travelled to Cancun and i thought that all Mexico is like it.If the Spaniards market themselves as Southern Europeans to the tourists while in reality their culture is in total contrast and has nothing to do with it you should complain to your compatriots, not to me pointing out that this is what they are seen as over here. In real life I never have heard Spain being called "Western" other than in a political sense and I find it quite surprising that you take so much offence in it.

[Pallantides]

How about these guys
http://www.evenes-kystlag.no/Nyheter/Bilder/hellbillies.jpg
http://www.nrk.no/lydverket/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Raga.jpg
http://iloapp.argusmedia.no/data/_gallery/public/3/1215724290_resized.jpg
http://www.driv.no/files/u142/motorpsycho_647906a.jpg
http://oslopuls.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00028/DeLillos_85__1366309_28006d.jpg
They are also Norwegian

When my mother visited Latvia she told me many of the people there could pass as Norwegians and I guess Lithuanians are not that different from Latvians?:)

[Falkata]

If the Spaniards market themselves as Southern Europeans to the tourists while in reality their culture is in total contrast and has nothing to do with it you should complain to your compatriots, not to me pointing out that this is what they are seen as over here. In real life I never have heard Spain being called "Western" other than in a political sense and I find it quite surprising that you take so much offence in it.

I dont complain, it´s a great source of €. It was a strategy that Franco began to attract tourism in the 60´s, triying to portray us as an exotic country where bulls ran in the streets and so on.

[Don]

I dont complain, it´s a great source of €. It was a strategy that Franco began to attract tourism in the 60´s, triying to portray us as an exotic country where bulls ran in the streets and so on.

http://www.libertadbalear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/jose-tomaslb.jpg
OoooOoooOoLÉ!

:rolleyes:

[Stefan]

Anyway, to get back on topic, I'd say the men on my mother's English side or who take after these ancestors tend to be very hairy(and darker). I'd say most of them are North Atlantid/Paleo-Atlantid mixes. I'm probably going to be hairy as well, and it would be through this side I'd assume it comes from. Otherwise my father doesn't have much hair. I have more hair on my legs and arms than he does, for example. Plus he started going bald at 25 years old. :D Must be those Amerindian genes. ;)

[Amapola]

I still find Mediterranean, North or South totally empty labels, just human constructs created to classify and differentiate. What is a Mediterranean culture? the Med is very heterogeneous anyway in all aspects. I can say I feel Mediterranean, was born by the Mediterranean and all my ancestors came from this area, but have a good ride, and the Med feeling is gone. Spain is a too heterogeneus country to even be labelled, not even the diet is Mediterranean, let alone the weather. It's a good reclamo turistico anyway.

[Eldritch]

This map after cultural borderlines is also quite useful in its own right:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png



Estonia at least should be green. ;)

[manu]

entertaining thread. I have a simpler definition: capitalistic countries = western europe, former communist countries = eastern europe. that would make Finland western and Czech Republic eastern, regardless of geography.

[Osweo]

Stupid maps are stupid. :thumb001:

Ones that don't show gradation or overlap are a complete waste of time. Arguing about them is even more so!