Classifying Y-DNA into races and ethnic groups

[ButlerKing]

Caucasoid Y-DNA




J1 semetic and Caucasus
J2 Semetic, Near eastern, Caucasus

R1b West Europeans
R1a East Europeans, Central Asians, South Asians

I North Europeans
G South Caucasus


Mongoloid

O3 Mongoloid Sino-Tibetan
O1 Mongoloid Austronesians
O2a Mongoloid Austro-Asiatic
O2b Mongoloid Northeast Asian


C3 Mongoloid Mongolic and South Siberian

D1 Mongoloid Tibetan and Tibeto-burmese
D3a Mongoloid Tibetan and Tibeto-burmese

Q Mongoloid Siberian

N Mongoloid north Siberian




Negroid


A Negroid Bantu-African
B Negroid Bantu African
Eb1a Negroid African

[ButlerKing]

Does anyone have a opinion? :coffee:

[Smeagol]

Can you explain why over a third of Lithuanians have Haplogroup N, when they score no Mongoloid admixture?

[ButlerKing]

Can you explain why over a third of Lithuanians have Haplogroup N, when they score no Mongoloid admixture?

They actually have 0.7% but anyway like I said before mongoloid admixture vanquishes in 7 generations

1 generation 50%
2 generation 25%
3 generation 12.5%
4 generation 6.25%
5 generation 3.12%
6 generation 1.66%
7 generation 0.75%

[Stormer99]

e1b is mostly Berberid

[blogen]

The populations have typical YDNA in continental scale not the races.

[tEhSaint]

Haplogroups would have much more meaning in a world where populations wouldn't move from place to place and wouldn't mix with others. So you just cant categorize like this.

[ButlerKing]

Now here is the question can you explain why Nenets have 75% Mongoloid Y-DNA but with 63% Caucasian maternal DNA and still look full blooded Mongoloid to predominately Mongoloid??? one should expect nenets to look like Caucasoids

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/NenetsY_DNA.gif
http://www.mediastorehouse.com/image/nenets_men_in_a_budarka_1607559.jpg

Nganasa extremely Mongoloid as hell with only 7% Caucasian maternal DNA but have 95% N, one should expect they look mix or slightly closer to Caucasoid.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/NganasansY_DNA.gif
http://lhmg.ru/photos/1ips07-Nganasan.jpg

[Smeagol]

Now here is the question can you explain why Nenets have 75% Mongoloid Y-DNA but with 63% Caucasian maternal DNA and still look full blooded Mongoloid to predominately Mongoloid??? one should expect nenets to look like Caucasoids

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/NenetsY_DNA.gif
http://www.mediastorehouse.com/image/nenets_men_in_a_budarka_1607559.jpg

Nganasa extremely Mongoloid as hell with only 7% Caucasian maternal DNA but have 95% N, one should expect they look mix or slightly closer to Caucasoid.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/NganasansY_DNA.gif
http://lhmg.ru/photos/1ips07-Nganasan.jpg

Nenets have significant Caucasoid influence.

http://russianow.washingtonpost.com/images/nomads.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pMpOduY0T-0/T8aFuIwaq5I/AAAAAAAAHYY/5Jm0GUpXHlI/s1600/alessandra_meniconzi_arctic.jpg

http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/rf-dudinka-05.jpg

http://www.desktopwallpaper2.com/desktop-wallpaper-home/Nenets-hd-picture-widescreen-wallpaper-1440x900-3-50ceefd68662a-4526.jpg

By your logic we should expect Finns to look like Mongoloids.

[Stormer99]

Finns are about 1/16 Mongoloid. Still there but not enough to make them nonwhite.

[ButlerKing]

Nenets have significant Caucasoid influence.

http://russianow.washingtonpost.com/images/nomads.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pMpOduY0T-0/T8aFuIwaq5I/AAAAAAAAHYY/5Jm0GUpXHlI/s1600/alessandra_meniconzi_arctic.jpg

http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/rf-dudinka-05.jpg

http://www.desktopwallpaper2.com/desktop-wallpaper-home/Nenets-hd-picture-widescreen-wallpaper-1440x900-3-50ceefd68662a-4526.jpg

Which is why I said from Mongoloid to predominately Mongoloid, the pictures you posted still look much more Asian than Caucasian. It would be stupid and strange to think they have no Caucasoid influence when they 63% Caucasian maternal DNA and 25% Caucasian paternal and if haplogroup N is Caucasoid that means 100% Caucasoid paternal.


While Mongoloid DNA is only maternal (37%) and still result in people that look like this? is insane

http://hovercraftdoggy.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/nenet-people.jpg?w=450&h=330
http://www.lifeonthinice.org/data/photos/530_1nenets_01_14.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Finns are about 1/16 Mongoloid. Still there but not enough to make them nonwhite.

More like 1/11 Mongoloid.

[Smeagol]

Which is why I said from Mongoloid to predominately Mongoloid, the pictures you posted still look much more Asian than Caucasian. It would be stupid and strange to think they have no Caucasoid influence when they 63% Caucasian maternal DNA and 25% Caucasian paternal and if haplogroup N is Caucasoid that means 100% Caucasoid paternal.


While Mongoloid DNA is only maternal (37%) and still result in people that look like this? is insane

http://hovercraftdoggy.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/nenet-people.jpg?w=450&h=330
http://www.lifeonthinice.org/data/photos/530_1nenets_01_14.jpg

But Finns have 58% N1c, and the majority of them still look Caucasoid. Are there any pure Mongoloid ethnic groups with high amounts of N?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I'd classify E as the semitic component. It's not clear when it became black for black africans but it was either from interaction with pigmies or from mixing with ASI that are now in south india.

[Smeagol]

More like 1/11 Mongoloid.

Some of them do, but the average is 6.7%. The Finns are more Caucasoid than the Nenets are Mongoloid.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

[ButlerKing]

But Finns have 58% N1c, and the majority of them still look Caucasoid. Are there any pure Mongoloid ethnic groups with high amounts of N?

True but the point is their mtDNA is 100% Caucasoid which easily explains their caucasoid, so where did the 9.3% Mongoloid DNA come from if it wasn't from haplogroup N. A few fins also have 12-15% Siberian admixture

Nenets on the other hand have higher frequencies of N than Finns but also higher Caucasoid maternal DNA with significant Caucasoid paternal DNA, how the hell can they still be so mongoloid looking?

[Stormer99]

E is mostly Berberid.

[ButlerKing]

I'd classify E as the semitic component. It's not clear when it became black for black africans but it was either from interaction with pigmies or from mixing with ASI that are now in south india.

Haplogroup E could be either North African or East African.

[Stormer99]

Haplogroup E could be either North African or East African.

E is most commonly associated with the Berbers

[Smeagol]

Haplogroup E is probably Northeast African.

[ButlerKing]

But Finns have 58% N1c, and the majority of them still look Caucasoid. Are there any pure Mongoloid ethnic groups with high amounts of N?


15 testes samples


10 samples are = 100% pure Mongoloid /Siberian

1 Sample = 100% Mongoloid with different Siberian admixture

2 sample = a mixture of different Mongoloid Siberian groups with small Caucasoid admixture

2 Sample = a mixture of different Mongoloid siberian groups with 36% Caucasoid admixture.


Nganassan are pure Siberian Mongoloid, there is another study that gives them 5% R1a and 14% Caucasoid maternal DNA but that's it


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UOHFTxL-bOA/TNuv_CPi9dI/AAAAAAAAALg/lG2CsRO8cso/s400/Nganassan.jpg

[Fire Haired]

Caucasoid Y-DNA




J1 semetic and Caucasus
J2 Semetic, Near eastern, Caucasus

R1b West Europeans
R1a East Europeans, Central Asians, South Asians

I North Europeans
G South Caucasus


Mongoloid

O3 Mongoloid Sino-Tibetan
O1 Mongoloid Austronesians
O2a Mongoloid Austro-Asiatic
O2b Mongoloid Northeast Asian


C3 Mongoloid Mongolic and South Siberian

D1 Mongoloid Tibetan and Tibeto-burmese
D3a Mongoloid Tibetan and Tibeto-burmese

Q Mongoloid Siberian

N Mongoloid north Siberian




Negroid


A Negroid Bantu-African
B Negroid Bantu African
Eb1a Negroid African

It is alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot

more ccomlicated than that. People inter marry throughout history orignally R1a and R1b father R1 was Mongliod. Y DNA is just a direct male line. Aust dna is what u should look at for more specfic stuff on human families it goes off austume chromosomes not just y chromosome.

click here (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/)

[ButlerKing]

It is alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot alot

more ccomlicated than that. People inter marry throughout history orignally R1a and R1b father R1 was Mongliod. Y DNA is just a direct male line. Aust dna is what u should look at for more specfic stuff on human families it goes off austume chromosomes not just y chromosome.

click here (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/)


Are you insane or out of your head? R1a and R1b was Mongoloid?????

Although you're right that Y-DNA is just a direct male line but one can see West Europeans are 100% Caucasoid with more than 60-80% R1b

[Anglojew]

Why do you think ancient Qs were Mongoloid?

[Smeagol]

Why do you think ancient Qs were Mongoloid?

There are pure Mongoloid populations with haplogroup Q so he's probably right. I used to believe it was Caucasoid though.

[Maleficent]

Caucasoid Y-DNA




J1 semetic and Caucasus
J2 Semetic, Near eastern, Caucasus

R1b West Europeans
R1a East Europeans, Central Asians, South Asians

I North Europeans
G South Caucasus

You forgot E1b1b, which is also very essential Caucasoid ydna.:mad:

This is a much better breakdown from Eupedia:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/haplogroups-ethnicities.gif

[ButlerKing]

Why do you think ancient Qs were Mongoloid?

Because this DNA reaches 100% in Native American tribes in South America and still have 0% European or Caucasian admixture

[riverman]

Finns are about 1/16 Mongoloid. Still there but not enough to make them nonwhite.

Wow, I don't think I'm even 1/16 german

[ButlerKing]

You forgot E1b1b, which is also very essential Caucasoid ydna.:mad:

This is a much better breakdown from Eupedia:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/haplogroups-ethnicities.gif

Listen I'm confused too. Eb1b1 is higher in East Africa although genetics that shows they have 40% Caucasoid DNA

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9950/e1b1bethnoseu7.jpg
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b.png

[Prisoner Of Ice]

E is not caucasian it is levantine/na


Because this DNA reaches 100% in Native American tribes in South America and still have 0% European or Caucasian admixture
So does the r1a in north america that came from the west. When you have uniform y-dna and small groups you soak up aDNA but keep Y-DNA homogenous due to genetic drift. That is you add small amounts of y-dna to a group of a thousand it trickles out fast. Add it to a million it trickles out slow.

Q and R are brothers and come from the same source so this can't happen but in fantasy land. There's no mongol to them originally.

[ButlerKing]

E is not caucasian it is levantine/na


So does the r1a in north america that came from the west. When you have uniform y-dna and small groups you soak up aDNA but keep Y-DNA homogenous due to genetic drift. That is you add small amounts of y-dna to a group of a thousand it trickles out fast. Add it to a million it trickles out slow.

Q and R are brothers and come from the same source so this can't happen but in fantasy land. There's no mongol to them originally.

N and O are also brothers too, so what?


Haplogroup Q never reaches more than 6% in Europe or any Caucasian group, so to say it is a European or Caucasian marker is stupid beyond stupid. Even the Azkhanezi Jews have 0.5 to 3.9% Mongoloid admixture. They don't have any Mongoloid mtDNA or any other Mongoloid Y-DNA the only one they have is 5% Q

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA).PNG

[Maleficent]

Listen I'm confused too. Eb1b1 is higher in East Africa although genetics that shows they have 40% Caucasoid DNA

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9950/e1b1bethnoseu7.jpg
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b.png

E1b1b ultimately originated among the Caucasoid people of the Northern part of East Africa, and it currently peaks in the Berbers. And by the way, you have posted one of those Afrocentric/Nordocentric propaganda photos that the Greeks are supposedly Horner and not Southern European.:picard2:

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Because butler, like you said your y-dna is not the whole story on your ancestry, but it is the story of the ORIGIN of your patron group. Since we know what previous groups look like they don't decide to be different, they only get that way through mixing. Just like the N is obviously not mongoloid, the Q isn't either, and the E is NOT black and NOT caucasian.


E1b1b ultimately originated among the Caucasoid people of the Northern part of East Africa, and it currently peaks in the Berbers. And by the way, you have posted one of those Afrocentric/Nordocentric propaganda photos that the Greeks are supposedly Horner and not Southern European.:picard2:
Caucasoid and black are nothing at all to do with E clade. E clade has just gotten washed out in most cases. There's not really any mainly semitic people around any more. Caucus = caucasian.

E is a brother group to D and they are cousins of C. They are way way away from caucasians and from origin of black color, both. They are their own little group. They are not original jews either, they are the middle east component to make arabs and jews into more semitic looking peoples. But if you are a jew this is likely heavily washed out. Well it's probably heavily washed out no matter what your origin, these days.

Picture is fitting because athenians do indeed have a semitic component, if you look at statues of hermes, he is obviously a semitic god while all the others are caucasian gods. Athenians also are not equivalent to all greeks, whatever they try to make the world believe, let alone to macedonians and thracians and ancient people of hellas all of whom are mostly no longer in existence.

[ButlerKing]

Because butler, like you said your y-dna is not the whole story on your ancestry, but it is the story of the ORIGIN of your patron group. Since we know what previous groups look like they don't decide to be different, they only get that way through mixing. Just like the N is obviously not mongoloid, the Q isn't either, and the E is NOT black and NOT caucasian.


Caucasoid and black are nothing at all to do with E clade. E clade has just gotten washed out in most cases. There's not really any mainly semitic people around any more. Caucus = caucasian.

E is a brother group to D and they are cousins of C. They are way way away from caucasians and from origin of black color, both. They are their own little group. They are not original jews either, they are the middle east component to make arabs and jews into more semitic looking peoples. But if you are a jew this is likely heavily washed out. Well it's probably heavily washed out no matter what your origin, these days.

Picture is fitting because athenians do indeed have a semitic component, if you look at statues of hermes, he is obviously a semitic god while all the others are caucasian gods. Athenians also are not equivalent to all greeks, whatever they try to make the world believe, let alone to macedonians and thracians and ancient people of hellas all of whom are mostly no longer in existence.

N and Q are obviously Mongoloid for many reasons

Haplogroup N is obviously Mongoloid because

1. It reachest highest frequencies in Mongoloid Siberians groups
2. Is even in heavy Mongoloid looking groups with predominately N with predominately Caucasoid maternal DNA.
3. It is highest in Nganasans at 95% and yet 11 out 13 are 100% pure Mongoloid in DNA

Haplogroup Q is obviously Mongoloid because

1. Is highest in Mongoloid and 100% in many groups
2. Is extremely low in European
3. Many of the Q have 100% Mongoloid DNA


The Surui have 80% Q and Ache 100% Q and yet they have 0% European admixture proving they have 0% any relation with Caucasoids and completely destroy any claims of Q ever being Caucasoid.
http://signaturebooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/dna2.jpg

[Anglojew]

N and Q are obviously Mongoloid for many reasons

Haplogroup N is obviously Mongoloid because

1. It reachest highest frequencies in Mongoloid Siberians groups
2. Is even in heavy Mongoloid looking groups with predominately N with predominately Caucasoid maternal DNA.
3. It is highest in Nganasans at 95% and yet 11 out 13 are 100% pure Mongoloid in DNA

Haplogroup Q is obviously Mongoloid because

1. Is highest in Mongoloid and 100% in many groups
2. Is extremely low in European
3. Many of the Q have 100% Mongoloid DNA


The Surui have 80% Q and Ache 100% Q and yet they have 0% European admixture proving they have 0% any relation with Caucasoids and completely destroy any claims of Q ever being Caucasoid.
http://signaturebooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/dna2.jpg

But couldn't this have occurred through 800 generations of mutation?

[Fire Haired]

Are you insane or out of your head? R1a and R1b was Mongoloid?????

Although you're right that Y-DNA is just a direct male line but one can see West Europeans are 100% Caucasoid with more than 60-80% R1b

Loook at the human family tree of Y DNa u need to understand it before u learn anything about y dna. R is the brother of Q (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242) which is dominte in native americans and central siberians. It is also the cousin of N (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)) dominte in northern asia and uralic speakers and O (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175) domimnte in east asia. Yes y dna R was orignally mongliod. I dont care how crazy it sounds it is true. Y DNa is completited Indo Europeans are the reason it became so popular it only spread and became dominte in people like it is today starting in the bronze age (Y DNA spread by Indo Europeans (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91971-Y-DNA-spread-by-Indo-Europeans-(R1a1a1-M417-R1b1a2a1-L51)-(R1b1a2a-L23-R1b1a1-M73-Etc-)))

[ButlerKing]

But couldn't this have occurred through 800 generations of mutation?

If that's how your logic works than perharps we can agree haplogroup R1a was originally Mongoloid and occurred from 2000 years of mutation.

[Fire Haired]

You forgot E1b1b, which is also very essential Caucasoid ydna.:mad:

This is a much better breakdown from Eupedia:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/haplogroups-ethnicities.gif

U guys are getting no where with this. Y DNA is very complicated y dna E is originally sub Saharan African. U really need to study the human y dna family tree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup). And realize it doesn't ell everything only direct male line all u know is a Y DNA haplogroup spread a certain way it does not mean a while race did.

[StonyArabia]

The Y-DNA T seems either to be Semitic or Dravidian. It peaks highly in the Chenchu tribe of India nearly 90%. However other places that have it are Iran, Iraq, Oman, Caucasus especially NorthWest Caucasus, and Iberia.

[ButlerKing]

Loook at the human family tree of Y DNa u need to understand it before u learn anything about y dna. R is the brother of Q (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242) which is dominte in native americans and central siberians. It is also the cousin of N (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)) dominte in northern asia and uralic speakers and O (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175) domimnte in east asia. Yes y dna R was orignally mongliod. I dont care how crazy it sounds it is true. Y DNa is completited Indo Europeans are the reason it became so popular it only spread and became dominte in people like it is today starting in the bronze age (Y DNA spread by Indo Europeans (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91971-Y-DNA-spread-by-Indo-Europeans-(R1a1a1-M417-R1b1a2a1-L51)-(R1b1a2a-L23-R1b1a1-M73-Etc-)))


Listen no one is going to believe in such a lunatic claim, you need to study genetics properly.

Q and N are Siberian Mongoloid that is obvious but R1a is always in Mongoloid populations that 5 - 30% Caucasian admixture.

[robar]

You forgot E1b1b, which is also very essential Caucasoid ydna.:mad:

This is a much better breakdown from Eupedia:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/haplogroups-ethnicities.gif

Y-dna E is negroid Y-dna

[Fire Haired]

The Y-DNA T seems either to be Semitic or Dravidian. It peaks highly in the Chenchu tribe of India nearly 90%. However other places that have it are Iran, Iraq, Oman, Caucasus especially NorthWest Caucasus, and Iberia.

U can call it semetic or Draviden it deifntley did not orignate in those ethnic groups. Ethnic groups form very quickly and are uselly a mix of people who lived before them. Just look at ur school or camp or neighborhoods and see how easily groups and cultures form and even languages and accents. So u cant call it Dravidian or Semitic.

[Smeagol]

Y-dna E is negroid Y-dna

No it isn't.

[StonyArabia]

E1b is said to have arisen in Somalia or Ethiopia.

[ButlerKing]

But couldn't this have occurred through 800 generations of mutation?

There is no individual Caucasoid sample group with more than 30% haplogroup N that doesn't have Mongoloid admixture on the other hand you have a 95% haplogroup N group who have 0% Caucasoid admixture

All the ethnic groups here with some colored green have Y-DNA N.

While slight 0 - 3% Caucasoid in Chinese are because of Hui Chinese muslim they have 7 - 17% Caucasoid DNA and are spread everywhere in China, many were forced to have assimilated and intermarried.

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6675/russiangwaadmixk2.png

[robar]

No it isn't.

37388

[Smeagol]

E1b is said to have arisen in Somalia or Ethiopia.

Y-Haplogroup E probably originated in the Near East, but most of Haplogroup E migrated back from the Near East to Africa.

''E1b1b stayed above the Sahara and spread into Europe and is now the most widespread haplogroup from the Mediterranean found among European ethnicities. Rather than being an African influence on the Middle-East, E is the Middle-Eastern influence on Africa. E1b1b is observed in significant frequencies in Eurasia, particularly in South Europe and the Balkans but also in Italy, Spain, Greece and southern France, and small amounts throughout Europe to Scandinavia. Most Sub-Saharan Africans belong to subclades of E other than E1b1b, while most non-Africans who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade. (Cruciani et al, Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E1b1b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa, Am. J. Hum. Genet, p. 74)''

[Smeagol]

There is no individual Caucasoid sample group with more than 30% haplogroup N that doesn't have Mongoloid admixture on the other hand you have a 95% haplogroup N group who have 0% Caucasoid admixture

All the ethnic groups here with some colored green have Y-DNA N.

While slight 0 - 3% Caucasoid in Chinese are because of Hui Chinese muslim they have 7 - 17% Caucasoid DNA

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6675/russiangwaadmixk2.png

According to this even Italians have Mongoloid admixture, so I don't take it seriously.

[robar]

Y-Haplogroup E probably originated in the Near East, but most of Haplogroup E migrated back from the Near East to Africa.

''E1b1b stayed above the Sahara and spread into Europe and is now the most widespread haplogroup from the Mediterranean found among European ethnicities. Rather than being an African influence on the Middle-East, E is the Middle-Eastern influence on Africa. E1b1b is observed in significant frequencies in Eurasia, particularly in South Europe and the Balkans but also in Italy, Spain, Greece and southern France, and small amounts throughout Europe to Scandinavia. Most Sub-Saharan Africans belong to subclades of E other than E1b1b, while most non-Africans who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade. (Cruciani et al, Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E1b1b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa, Am. J. Hum. Genet, p. 74)''
lol there is the map it's obvious where E came from:rolleyes:

[Fire Haired]

Listen no one is going to believe in such a lunatic claim, you need to study genetics properly.

i know way more about genetics then u. Yes y dna R was originally mongliod how about u study it. Who cares if it is around 50% in modern Europeans that doesn't matter it doesnt mean it was orignally european or caucasin. Almost all European R1b is under R1b1a2a1a L51 and almost all R1a is under R1a1a1 M417 both being spread with Indo European languages in the bronze age out of Russia, Ukraine, an far northern mid east. would u please read my thread y dna spread by indo europeans (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91971-Y-DNA-spread-by-Indo-Europeans-(R1a1a1-M417-R1b1a2a1-L51)-(R1b1a2a-L23-R1b1a1-M73-Etc-)) it explains alot!!! The only for sure direct male line from Paleolithic Europe is hg I which is the brother to the main mid eastern y dna haplogroup hg J. Early Europeans so Cro magnon who were Caucasins 30,000-60,000ybp also would have had F L15 aka IJK and possibly even some C. Same with early Caucasians in North Africa some of those paternal lineages have survived by E1b1b somehow became dominate probably pretty recently and hg E orignally was from sub shara farica were it is dominate there to.

Looking at modern European aust dna which tells ur full ancestry unlike y dna. The Paleolithic Cro magnon bloodline is the strongest in modern Europeans it is what makes Europeans distinct from other people. The globe13 calls it north euro its brother is west asian.

here is a map of it i made it.
37389

It is complicated but there was not one family migration into Europe. It would have probably been multiple extremely extremely related people. Most likely originally from around the Caucus, Anatolia-north and central Iraq-Iran. Aust DNa shows the same story with Native Americans unlike with Europeans they did not have non EUropean inter marriage because of the spread of farming and other things. Their group in globe13 test is called Ameridona wish they would just say Native American. Native americans have all distinct mtdna haplogroups and y dna except for later group under y dna C which came with Na Dene people 6,000-10,000ybp aka Chinese looking native Americans in Canada and Greenland. they also have some R1* not a suprise since it was orignally mongliod. Since they have multiple mtdna haplogroups they are not exactley a pure family but they come from a mix of extremley extremly relate dpeople that arrive din North America 25,000-30,000ybp. Europe used to be all 100% the same thing like native americans. It makes me think there was some type of natural boundry around Europe that stopped inter marriage till the neloithic age 9,000ybp.

[ButlerKing]

According to this even Italians have Mongoloid admixture, so I don't take it seriously.

The Italians in this study were from Silicy and take a look here

http://thuleanperspective.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/haplogroup-q.gif

[Smeagol]

The Italians in this study were from Silicy and take a look here

http://thuleanperspective.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/haplogroup-q.gif

Sicilians are Autosomally 0% Mongoloid.

[ButlerKing]

Sicilians are Autosomally 0% Mongoloid.

Really? I clearly saw 1.5% to 3% Mongoloid admixture. They also have about 9% Sub-Saharan admixture

[Smeagol]

Really? I clearly saw 1.5% to 3% Mongoloid admixture. They also have about 9% Sub-Saharan admixture

No, Sicilians have 0% Mongoloid admixture, where do you think they would even get it in the first place? They also have less than 1% Sub-Saharan. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

[ButlerKing]

No, Sicilians have 0% Mongoloid admixture, where do you think they would even get it in the first place? They also have less than 1% Sub-Saharan. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

Strange, could be because the study here was from Northern Sicily because Q is 0% while in the south is more than 4%? I saw another autosomal DNA chart which gives sicily 1-3% Mongoloid admixture I'm sure those were samples from the south not north.

Even Tuscan have 0.5% Mongoloid admixture but I don't know how.

Russian, Latvians, Ukranians, Hungarians have 3-5%, North Russians have 14%.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UOHFTxL-bOA/TQuGYMZQmXI/AAAAAAAAAQc/JPtHr4lP4a0/s1600/ADMIXTURE_3.png

[Smeagol]

Strange, could be because the study here was from Northern Sicily because Q is 0% while in the south is more than 4%? I saw another autosomal DNA chart which gives sicily 1-3% Mongoloid admixture I'm sure those were samples from the south not north.

Even Tuscan have 0.5% Mongoloid admixture but I don't know how.

Russian, Latvians, Ukranians, Hungarians have 3-5%, North Russians have 14%.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UOHFTxL-bOA/TQuGYMZQmXI/AAAAAAAAAQc/JPtHr4lP4a0/s1600/ADMIXTURE_3.png

Where would Sicilians get any Mongoloid admixture though? They were never invaded by any Mongoloids.

[ButlerKing]

Where would Sicilians get any Mongoloid admixture though? They were never invaded by any Mongoloids.

Either from the Ottoman Turks who have 5 - 18.5% Mongoloid admixture. Not necessarily invasion but settlement. Wasn't there any Slavic settlement?

Or it could from the Hunnic raid

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Kalandozasok.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Or maybe from The Bulgars migration? they had 20-25% Mongoloid admixture I read something from the Russian about Bulgars have 60% R1a and 20% Q but I cannot confirm this source in English so I'm not sure either.

Many Italians from southern Italy did migrate to Sicily.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Bulgar_subsequent_migrations_in_Europe..jpg

[Smeagol]

Either from the Ottoman Turks who have 5 - 18.5% Mongoloid admixture. Not necessarily invasion but settlement. Wasn't there any Slavic settlement?

Or it could from the Hunnic raid

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Kalandozasok.jpg

Ottomans, and Slavs didn't make a big impact on the population, an even your map shows the Huns didn't make it to Sicily. Anyway,
''The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%). This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African)'' -Romano et al. 2003)

[ButlerKing]

Ottomans, and Slavs didn't make a big impact on the population, an even your map shows the Huns didn't make it to Sicily. Anyway,
''The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%). This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African)'' -Romano et al. 2003)

This clearly proves there was a Asian genetic impact.

The Bulgars migrated to Italy and Italians from the south later migrated to sicily.

[Smeagol]

This clearly proves there was a Asian genetic impact.

The Bulgars migrated to Italy and Italians from the south later migrated to sicily.

Yes, 1.3%.

[Anglojew]

Or maybe from The Bulgars migration? they had 20-25% Mongoloid admixture I read something from the Russian about Bulgars have 60% R1a and 20% Q but I cannot confirm this source in English so I'm not sure either.

Many Italians from southern Italy did migrate to Sicily.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Bulgar_subsequent_migrations_in_Europe..jpg

That map covers exactly the same area as Khazaria so could this be a Bulgar link with unusual YDNA haplogroups in Ashkenazi Jews?

[ButlerKing]

Yes, 1.3%.


1.3% on maternal and 4% Q on southern Sicily.

[ButlerKing]

That map covers exactly the same area as Khazaria so could this be a Bulgar link with unusual YDNA haplogroups in Ashkenazi Jews?

The Khazars and Bulgars were different tribes and both properly had Q but Khazars had more.

Khazars had some Mongoloid people in burials, but none of the burials Bulgars were Mongoloid the best they got was predominately Caucasoid with some Mongoloid admixture

This is a Bulgar

http://s39.radikal.ru/i085/0904/b0/27ae963ff45a.jpg

This is a Khazar

http://i48.tinypic.com/2ypeotk.jpg

[Smeagol]

1.3% on maternal and 4% Q on southern Sicily.

But...
''Similar data from the Y-chromosome reveals Italians' even lower non-Caucasoid paternal admixture. Both studies obtained samples from all over the mainland and islands. No Asian DNA was detected anywhere''-Semino et al. 2004

[ButlerKing]

I think it's obvious that Jews with Q came from Khazars, that is why they followed Judaism

The Bulgars did not follow Judaism.

[Smeagol]

The Khazars and Bulgars were different tribes and both properly had Q but Khazars had more.

Khazars had some Mongoloid people in burials, but none of the burials Bulgars were Mongoloid the best they got was predominately Caucasoid with some Mongoloid admixture

This is a Bulgar

http://s39.radikal.ru/i085/0904/b0/27ae963ff45a.jpg

This is a Khazar

http://i48.tinypic.com/2ypeotk.jpg

I think only the Khazar ruling class was Turanid.

[ButlerKing]

But...
''Similar data from the Y-chromosome reveals Italians' even lower non-Caucasoid paternal admixture. Both studies obtained samples from all over the mainland and islands. No Asian DNA was detected anywhere''-Semino et al. 2004

Was this study from Sicily?

You see the problem is there are many Italian sub-groups in Italy.

[Smeagol]

Was this study from Sicily?

You see the problem is there are many Italian sub-groups in Italy.

It was from all over Italy. I can't find anything on the Y-DNA of just Sicilians.

[ButlerKing]

I think only the Khazar ruling class was Turanid.

Khazars were more like Mongoloid Turanids while the normal people were 100% Caucasoid. The Khazars numbers were insignificant and small compared to the Natives of Caucasus.

[ButlerKing]

It was from all over Italy. I can't find anything on the Y-DNA of just Sicilians.

What is the point of mentioning no Asian DNA detected when it was previously detected?

The Hunnic raid and Bulgar migration to Italy can't be denied.

[Smeagol]

What is the point of mentioning not Asian DNA detected when it was previously detected?

The Hunnic raid and Bulgar migration to Italy can't be denied.

It was detected on the maternal side.

[ButlerKing]

It was detected on the maternal side.

But other studies shows Mongoloid mtDNA is 0% in Italy. I think it appears only in some Sub-Italian groups.

[ButlerKing]

It was detected on the maternal side.

Italy was not even Italy in the pass, they were a bunch of kingdoms rivaling eachother

I think it it Sardanians Italians with the highest Mongoloid admixture

http://nobledinasty.webs.com/Italy%201796.png


Sardania Italy with 5% Q????

http://thuleanperspective.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/haplogroup-q.gif

[SilverKnight]

Proud E1a4

[Smeagol]

Italy was not even Italy in the pass, they were a bunch of kingdoms rivaling eachother

I think it it Sardanians Italians with the highest Mongoloid admixture

http://nobledinasty.webs.com/Italy%201796.png


Sardania Italy with 5% Q????

http://thuleanperspective.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/haplogroup-q.gif

Having 5% Q though, doesn't mean 5% Mongoloid admixture. They could still have a Mongoloid haplogroup and be 99.9% European.

[ButlerKing]

Actually I don't think that is located in Sardania after all.

[Smeagol]

Interesting the Saami don't have any haplogroup Q.

[ButlerKing]

Having 5% Q though, doesn't mean 5% Mongoloid admixture. They could still have a Mongoloid haplogroup and be 99.9% European.

Is hard to explain. Perharps Y-DNA Q in this case was from neolithic contribution and later a increase of Q from Turkic/Siberian Q from Huns, Bulgars to other parts of East Europe.

[ButlerKing]

Interesting the Saami don't have any haplogroup Q.


It doesn't necessarily take haplogroup Q to have mongoloid admixture. Turkish Turks have only 3.5% to 6.8% Mongoloid Y-DNA mostly Q and N and 7.99% Mongoloid mtDNA but still have 5 - 18.5% Mongoloid DNA because the Turks who conquered and Turkicized Turkey were already a group of hybridized people. That means any Y-DNA marker in Turkey could have been Contaminated with Mongoloid it if came from Central Asians Y-DNA.

Turkish men intermarrying with Italian women.

The Turks of Moena, also known as Moena Turks, (Italian: Turchi di Moena; Turkish: Moena Türkleri), are people of Turkish ancestry who have had a thriving presence in Moena, a small town in the province of Trento located in northern Italy, since the Ottoman period up to today. During the Battle of Vienna, in 1683, many Turkish soldiers fled to the south and eventually arrived in Moena.[1] They settled in the region permanently after marrying local women and having children.[2] Thus, today there is still a community who trace their roots to the Ottoman Turks. Moena is often called "Rione Turchia" which means "Turkish district/region".[2] The inhabitants of the town celebrate their Turkish origins every year in the summer with a carnival parade.[3]

[Artek]

I would be careful with some associations , like I - North Europeans. You also haven't divided N into Finnish-Baltic branch which is undoubtedly Caucasoid.

[ButlerKing]

I would be careful with some associations , like I - North Europeans. You also haven't divided N into undoubtedly Finnish-Baltic branch which is Caucasoid.

Original N were mongoloid it doesn't matter if the N in Finns are a separate branch today.

[Artek]

Original N were mongoloid it doesn't matter if the N in Finns are a separate branch today.
Well, original R1* is found among Indians of North America and they don't look strikingly Caucasoid. R haplogroups are the closest to Q,P, N,O,S - that says something. IJ branch is more Caucasoid.

[Peikko]

But Finns have 58% N1c, and the majority of them still look Caucasoid. Are there any pure Mongoloid ethnic groups with high amounts of N?
Some of them? Find a Finn who doesn't look caucasoid.

To the original topic, R1 is also Mongoloid. It's the sub-clades that matter.

[ButlerKing]

Well, original R1* is found among Indians of North America and they don't look strikingly Caucasoid. R haplogroups are the closest to Q,P, N,O,S - that says something

What the hell.... Original R1* is found among Indians of North America????? what the heck does that mean that R1 was Mongoloid?

[ButlerKing]

Some of them? Find a Finn who doesn't look caucasoid.

To the original topic, R1 is also Mongoloid. It's the sub-clades that matter.

I can't, because the people who brought haplogroup N to Finns ( Like I said MANY TIMES BEFORE ) were already like western Uralics who predominately Caucasoid with some Mongoloid admixture and even than Mongoloid only appears on them only occasionally.

Mongoloid influence Finns? Yes.

http://images.travelpod.com/users/foegoer/liekiegoesasia.1159718760.pekka_and_hela_finnish_c ouple.jpg

[Zmey Gorynych]

Well, original R1* is found among Indians of North America and they don't look strikingly Caucasoid. R haplogroups are the closest to Q,P, N,O,S - that says something
What do you mean by closest !? I'm a total moron when it comes to genetics (actually I'm not very bright in general) :) Do they cluster (is that an appropriate word) !? or did these haplogroups derived (split) from an older haplogroup !? Can you link/post a diagram which represents the interrelationship of all "european" haplogroups !?

[Smeagol]

Some of them? Find a Finn who doesn't look caucasoid.

Lol, I probably can't.

[robar]

okay but then E is a negro haplogroup:D

[Peikko]

I can't, because the people who brought haplogroup N to Finns ( Like I said MANY TIMES BEFORE ) were already like western Uralics who predominately Caucasoid with some Mongoloid admixture and even than Mongoloid only appears on them only occasionally.

Mongoloid influence Finns? Yes.

http://images.travelpod.com/users/foegoer/liekiegoesasia.1159718760.pekka_and_hela_finnish_c ouple.jpg
What's Mongoloid about them? The dyed black hair? There's the flag of the Netherlands in the background, are they even Finns? Can you provide the source?

Btw, why are you so ashamed your own race?

[Vojnik]

Haplogroup I isn't just in Northern Europe. Sardinia has alot of I and so does the Balkans with a 50%+ frequency in Bosnia & Herzegovina.

[blogen]

What's Mongoloid about them?

Her cheekbone definitely.

[riverman]

...........

[Peikko]

Her cheekbone definitely.
You see Mongoloid in everything. Didn't you also claim that Hungarians have Mongoloid skull shape? Just because you have Mongoloid influence doesn't mean everyone does.

Prominent cheeks are considered to be a beautiful trait and most models have high cheeks. Are these people Mongoloid too?
https://www.google.com/search?q=polish+model&client=ms-android-samsung&rlz=1Y3GQQX_fiFI540FI540&espv=1&biw=360&bih=567&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sboxchip=Kuvahaku&sa=X&ei=ptgyUqi9Barl4QSDh4H4CA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAA

https://www.google.com/search?q=Swedish+model&client=ms-android-samsung&rlz=1Y3GQQX_fiFI540FI540&espv=1&biw=360&bih=567&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sboxchip=Kuvahaku&sa=X&ei=UdkyUt6RG8OC4gTStoGQAg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAA

[blogen]

You see Mongoloid in everything.
Just because you have Mongoloid influence doesn't mean everyone does.
Prominent cheeks are considered to be a beautiful trait and most models have high cheeks. Are these people Mongoloid too?

No, sorry. Not my problem if many people do not know the fundamental morphology of the human races or for many Europeans insult the racial mixing.

And not the prominent cheek is the visible Mongoloid trait on the mixed types, but this (http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9602/htk0.jpg).


Didn't you also claim that Hungarians have Mongoloid skull shape?

No, never. There are not Mongoloid Hungarians (except few second generation Chinese-Hungarian). The Europo-Mongoloid is not Mongoloid, but a mixed race.

[Peikko]

No, sorry. Not my problem if many people do not know the fundamental morphology of the human races or for many Europeans insult the racial mixing.

And not the prominent cheek is the visible Mongoloid trait on the mixed types, but this (http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9602/htk0.jpg).

No, never. There are not Mongoloid Hungarians (except few second generation Chinese-Hungarian). The Europo-Mongoloid is not Mongoloid, but a mixed race.

But Hungarians aren't even mixed race. The genetics doesn't back you up.

[The Ripper]

Classifying Y-DNA into races and ethnic groups...

...Is beyond stupid.

[blogen]

But Hungarians aren't even mixed race. The genetics doesn't back you up.

The Finns should be almost full Mongoloid based on the genetics (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG). But between the Finns there are no Mongolids and the Europo-Mongoloid is rare. This above example is not frequent, the average Finn is Caucasoid.

So? Oh yes, the context is slight between the genes and the races.

ps. the considerable part of the Hungarians' genes is typical of the Western Eurasian steppic peoples, for this reason the similarity between the Hungarians and their environment is random, but this is again a good example onto the deficiency of the context between the genes and the races.

[Proto-Shaman]

I think only the Khazar ruling class was Turanid.
Would make sense, since the Khazar ruling class was of Ashina Saka origin.

[Proto-Shaman]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA).PNG
I think one branch of R1a was brought with Turkic Q to Saudi Arabia.

[Peikko]

The Finns should be almost full Mongoloid based on the genetics (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG). But between the Finns there are no Mongolids and the Europo-Mongoloid is rare. This above example is not frequent, the average Finn is Caucasoid.

So? Oh yes, the context is slight between the genes and the races.

ps. the considerable part of the Hungarians' genes is typical of the Western Eurasian steppic peoples, for this reason the similarity between the Hungarians and their environment is random, but this is again a good example onto the deficiency of the context between the genes and the races.

Based on your logic all Europeans should be mongs (R1 remember?), but that's not how it works. Maybe you had the unfortunate chance to have some Mongoloid looking physical traits some Alpines seem to have, but average Hungarians are white appearance and genetic wise. You just need to accept it and learn to live with yourself.

[blogen]

Based on your logic all Europeans should be mongs (R1 remember?), but that's not how it works.

The R1 is most frequent between the present and ancient Caucasoids, the Turks and other Europo-Mongolids inherited it from them. And the haplogroup N origin from the Haplogroup NO. This gene is not attached to an original Caucasoid population.


Maybe you had the unfortunate chance to have some Mongoloid looking physical traits some Alpines seem to have, but average Hungarians are white appearance and genetic wise. You just need to accept it and learn to live with yourself.

I am glad that you refute an anthropological survey (14 282 men / 14 602 women) in two sentences, since the Hungarian academicians cannot know distinguish the Alpinoid from a Turanid. :thumb001:

[Artek]

What do you mean by closest !? I'm a total moron when it comes to genetics (actually I'm not very bright in general) :) Do they cluster (is that an appropriate word) !? or did these haplogroups derived (split) from an older haplogroup !? Can you link/post a diagram which represents the interrelationship of all "european" haplogroups !?

Human chromosome phylogeny looks roughly like that, with some recent minor changes like uniting HIJK branch and adding A00 root branch.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7118/gd5m.jpg
It's clearly visible that R is in the closest relation to Q, N,O and other haplogroups which are overwhelmingly considered Mongoloid, whereas relation with I and J is more distant, on the level of upstream haplogroup K (in the HIJK or like on this slightly outdated tree -IJK)

[blogen]

Time depth!

K: 47,000 years BP

MNOPS: 35,000-45,000 years BP

NO: 30,000-40,000 years BP
P: 27,000-41,000 years BP

O: 28,000-41,000 years BP
N: 15,000-25,000 years BP

Q: 17,000-22,000 years BP
R: 19,900-34,300 years BP

[Peikko]

The R1 is most frequent between the present and ancient Caucasoids, the Turks and other Europo-Mongolids inherited it from them. And the haplogroup N origin from the Haplogroup NO. This gene is not attached to an original Caucasoid population.



I am glad that you refute an anthropological survey (14 282 men / 14 602 women) in two sentences, since the Hungarian academicians cannot know distinguish the Alpinoid from a Turanid. :thumb001:

So are you claiming that native Americans were originally caucasoid? Look at Arteks post.

What comes to your anthropological study, could you provide me a link or source? How can anyone tell the difference between alpine and turanid, when the latter isn't even a real phenotype? Who conducted that study, some turanist?

[Proto-Shaman]

So are you claiming that native Americans were originally caucasoid? Look at Arteks post.

What comes to your anthropological study, could you provide me a link or source? How can anyone tell the difference between alpine and turanid, when the latter isn't even a real phenotype? Who conducted that study, some turanist?
Ancient North Americans were red haired, white skinned and tall. Excavations have shown this.

[blogen]

So are you claiming that native Americans were originally caucasoid? Look at Arteks post.

No. And the origin of the Indian R1 is debated, but the postcolumbian origin is probable. The other opportunity is a very early mixed Europo-Mongoloid population's wandering into North-America.


What comes to your anthropological study, could you provide me a link or source? How can anyone tell the difference between alpine and turanid, when the latter isn't even a real phenotype? Who conducted that study, some turanist?

source: Dr. Henkey Gyula Hungarian academician (http://mta.hu/koztestuleti_tagok?PersonId=7548): A magyarság és más Kárpát-medencei népek etnikai embertani vizsgálata - Magyar Őstörténeti Kiadó, Budapest, 2002. You may read some details here! (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?68219-Debate-on-Hungarian-origins&p=1839364&viewfull=1#post1839364) He was one of our most distinguished anthropologist. And there are no "Turanist millimetres and ratios", there is not subjectivity in the numbers. :)

Visible difference between the Turanid and Alpinoid. (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5492/k5lg.jpg)

[Proto-Shaman]

Visible difference between the Turanid and Alpinoid. (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5492/k5lg.jpg)
Lol, the right one looks hardcore East Baltid. Try to find a better example.. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?60346-Turks-of-Turanid-Racial-Type/page14

[blogen]

Lol, the right one looks hardcore East Baltid. Try to find a better example.. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?60346-Turks-of-Turanid-Racial-Type/page14

She is a hardcore EB! (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5811&stc=1&d=1284930298) :D

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Ancient North Americans were red haired, white skinned and tall. Excavations have shown this.

Yup, and they have r1a Y-DNA and X mtDNA in the east coast and seem to have crossed from west europe via ice-walking.

I appreciate a lot of people are going to think whatever some group looks like today is always was, especially if it's their own ethnicity. But like I said a couple times we know from history mongolization of these groups happened. Nobody in Hungary with mongol features got it from the north eurasian ancestry! Even ghengis khan was a redhead, and all the ancient art of mongols gave them mongolian face type but white skin, kind of like some modern finns.

If they were really "mongol" from the start then all the Q in SA would look mongol. Guess what? Aside from the most recent newcomers nobody looks remotely mongolian in either north or south america so this just doesn't fly. And yes we have tons of examples of the red hair but due to treaties with local indians we are not allowed to do much work with the human remains. Though aside from the red hair as some oddities with very tall people here and there I don't think there's much to learn anyway.

The issue with the semitic E group is the same. The semitic group is just way far away from the caucasians and the asians in its origin, what you see today doesn't necessarily indicate much. We especially know this because some groups full of E look completely different. Like blacks and jews and egyptians and greeks. We have some Q people with red hair among jews, and we have some other Qs here and there that are totally white because they wandered southwest instead of northeast so there should not be much dispute.

[Peikko]

Lol, the right one looks hardcore East Baltid. Try to find a better example.. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?60346-Turks-of-Turanid-Racial-Type/page14

There's really nothing East Baltic about her. Notice how her eyes are big Southern European type, her face is completely round and her pigmentation is woggish.

[Peikko]

gave them mongolian face type but white skin, kind of like some modern finns.

What the hell do Finns have to do with this? We have the same skin color as other Northern Europeans.

[Anglojew]

Would make sense, since the Khazar ruling class was of Ashina Saka origin.

What evidence do you have for this?

As a Q Jew this could mean I could be descended from this group.

[Proto-Shaman]

There's really nothing East Baltic about her. Notice how her eyes are big Southern European type, her face is completely round and her pigmentation is woggish.
Her look is more widespread among Russians anyway. This would be a better Turanid textbook example: http://www.trabzonspor.org.tr/Upload/Sporcu/buyuk/26_10_2010-0G1I.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

What evidence do you have for this?

As a Q Jew this could mean I could be descended from this group.
Ashina clan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina_%28clan%29#Etymology). There is a Croatian royal family called Tarnawa, Alfred Krupa. They trace their origin back to the Khazar Ashinas (Ashkenaz?) (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ashinaroyaldynasty/), based on DNA-background:

http://houseofitil.weebly.com/
http://herebedragons.weebly.com/ashina-line.html
http://drakenberg.weebly.com/royal-ashina.html
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ashinaroyaldynasty/
http://www.amazon.com/ASHINA-KHAZAR-FAMILY-CROATIA-ebook/dp/B0048EKJ2I
http://vimeo.com/28971435

Lol, even Rotshilds have Asian lineages xD

http://drakenberg.weebly.com/uploads/6/7/4/7/6747442/9168696.jpg?525

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com/

This woman's family traces back to that lineage, according to her anyway. There are some khazar jews they just are not the most common. They also don't look semitic in the least. There's also some people in the ukraine still with the same ethno group who are not jewish. There's a few pictures on the blog somewhere of her grandfather, large head, reddish hair very handsome. Also she claims her family has a very high IQ, which I can believe. Head size isn't everything but it seems to make a difference when comparing people in the same society anyway.

[Anglojew]

Ashina clan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina_%28clan%29#Etymology). There is a Croatian royal family called Tarnawa, Alfred Krupa. They trace their origin back to the Khazar Ashinas (Ashkenaz?) (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ashinaroyaldynasty/), based on DNA-background:

http://houseofitil.weebly.com/
http://herebedragons.weebly.com/ashina-line.html
http://drakenberg.weebly.com/royal-ashina.html
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ashinaroyaldynasty/
http://www.amazon.com/ASHINA-KHAZAR-FAMILY-CROATIA-ebook/dp/B0048EKJ2I
http://vimeo.com/28971435

Lol, even Rotshilds have Asian lineages xD

http://drakenberg.weebly.com/uploads/6/7/4/7/6747442/9168696.jpg?525

Yeah I've read about them. What I don't understand is why Ashina Saka since the Ashina's seem to be Turkic but Saka is an Iranian language group?

[Anglojew]

http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com/

This woman's family traces back to that lineage, according to her anyway. There are some khazar jews they just are not the most common. They also don't look semitic in the least. There's also some people in the ukraine still with the same ethno group who are not jewish. There's a few pictures on the blog somewhere of her grandfather, large head, reddish hair very handsome. Also she claims her family has a very high IQ, which I can believe. Head size isn't everything but it seems to make a difference when comparing people in the same society anyway.

I'm Q but my family looks pretty Semitic.

[Tropico]

So E-V13 is Berid or SSA?

[ButlerKing]

Ancient North Americans were red haired, white skinned and tall. Excavations have shown this.

No No No No No No.............................


Ancient North Americans were red hair haired, white skinned and tall...... but no evidence of Caucasoid skeleton being found


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR6lxLQSpls

[ButlerKing]

Yup, and they have r1a Y-DNA and X mtDNA in the east coast and seem to have crossed from west europe via ice-walking.

I appreciate a lot of people are going to think whatever some group looks like today is always was, especially if it's their own ethnicity. But like I said a couple times we know from history mongolization of these groups happened. Nobody in Hungary with mongol features got it from the north eurasian ancestry! Even ghengis khan was a redhead, and all the ancient art of mongols gave them mongolian face type but white skin, kind of like some modern finns.

If they were really "mongol" from the start then all the Q in SA would look mongol. Guess what? Aside from the most recent newcomers nobody looks remotely mongolian in either north or south america so this just doesn't fly. And yes we have tons of examples of the red hair but due to treaties with local indians we are not allowed to do much work with the human remains. Though aside from the red hair as some oddities with very tall people here and there I don't think there's much to learn anyway.

The issue with the semitic E group is the same. The semitic group is just way far away from the caucasians and the asians in its origin, what you see today doesn't necessarily indicate much. We especially know this because some groups full of E look completely different. Like blacks and jews and egyptians and greeks. We have some Q people with red hair among jews, and we have some other Qs here and there that are totally white because they wandered southwest instead of northeast so there should not be much dispute.


NO NO NO......................... No evidence of Caucasoid skeleton was even found If you want albino red hair and blonde native Americans I can show you.....

And for your info Latin Americans are proto-Mongoloid while Asians are Neo-Mongoloid so they don't need to look the same?\
Q is only 5% in Jews and you're claiming that's red hair? while American Indians from the south 100 % Q and few albino red hair and blonde Indians is because of Q, what a freaking joke.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR6lxLQSpls



This is exactly why eurocentrists are crazy mofo's. Y-DNA of Genghis Khan was haplogroup C3 so what messed up logic do you have next?

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/Duo9t6jJkAE/mqdefault.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/nfgqc5.jpg
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/woCN8lVJSNY/hqdefault.jpg

[Smeagol]

The Native Americans are paleo-Mongoloids. Some people think they are part Caucasoid because of their features, but they aren't.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

NO NO NO......................... No evidence of Caucasoid skeleton was even found If you want albino red hair and blonde native Americans I can show you.....

And for your info Latin Americans are proto-Mongoloid while Asians are Neo-Mongoloid so they don't need to look the same?\
Q is only 5% in Jews and you're claiming that's red hair? while American Indians from the south 100 % Q and few albino red hair and blonde Indians is because of Q, what a freaking joke.


proto mongoloid, meaning that they became more mongoloid? Kind of like there was genetic drift or something?

Q barely exists outside of americas any more, but we know all about some populations that did have the red hair and we know had Q, but they only exist in remnants now. We also have archaeology and native stories that say the more ancient peoples in the americas did have red hair. Since it's recessive it washes out fairly quick. Since it is disadvantageous in southern areas due to skin cancer it will wash out even faster there. So for some of these guys to have it means they basically all had it at some point, whether you like it or not, IE back when it split off from its brother clades.

The idea is the y-dna tree shows descent. meaning all four of those groups were the same at some point. One didn't just do whatever it wanted, they soaked up stuff as they went.

You can't use the hilarious Fire Haired method of looking at a couple pictures of people today and then determining what ancient peoples were like. He thinks mongolian is where asian color comes from but it's not. The ones in the south who were proto mongolians don't have the same color, meaning that's nonsense. The ones who do have it didn't develop it themselves they picked it up from asian and semitic sources. To say otherwise is to say that two unrelated groups evolved to the same exact thing. Nope.

Then we go to N and we have the finns. This is what a mongolian type used to look like, the changes have not been due to evolution but due to race mixing from the main population centers of the world, the middle east and east asia. Which dwarf the siberian and central asian populations so of course they take on more of their character over time, while the east asians stay the same.

The mongolians aren't mongolian any more, the greek aren't greek any more, the blacks only turned black recently and only got to africa recently, population of england has been wholly replaced many times over, people in central asian were wholly white even in historic times - mongols were white, just like all the oldest references and artwork describe.

[ButlerKing]

proto mongoloid, meaning that they became more mongoloid? Kind of like there was genetic drift or something?

Q barely exists outside of americas any more, but we know all about some populations that did have the red hair and we know had Q, but they only exist in remnants now. We also have archaeology and native stories that say the more ancient peoples in the americas did have red hair. Since it's recessive it washes out fairly quick. Since it is disadvantageous in southern areas due to skin cancer it will wash out even faster there. So for some of these guys to have it means they basically all had it at some point, whether you like it or not, IE back when it split off from its brother clades.

The idea is the y-dna tree shows descent. meaning all four of those groups were the same at some point. One didn't just do whatever it wanted, they soaked up stuff as they went.

You can't use the hilarious Fire Haired method of looking at a couple pictures of people today and then determining what ancient peoples were like. He thinks mongolian is where asian color comes from but it's not. The ones in the south who were proto mongolians don't have the same color, meaning that's nonsense. The ones who do have it didn't develop it themselves they picked it up from asian and semitic sources. To say otherwise is to say that two unrelated groups evolved to the same exact thing. Nope.

Then we go to N and we have the finns. This is what a mongolian type used to look like, the changes have not been due to evolution but due to race mixing from the main population centers of the world, the middle east and east asia. Which dwarf the siberian and central asian populations so of course they take on more of their character over time, while the east asians stay the same.

The mongolians aren't mongolian any more, the greek aren't greek any more, the blacks only turned black recently and only got to africa recently, population of england has been wholly replaced many times over, people in central asian were wholly white even in historic times - mongols were white, just like all the oldest references and artwork describe.


I don't know what the heck you're talking about. But I'll to tell you one thing

Mongoloid men of Mongolian origin raped million of Caucasoid and Turanid women that is why Central Asia had experience a 25-50% Mongolian genetic increase.

I suggest you to look how the facial reconstruction of how Central Asian Caucasoid turned to Mongoloid gradually.....

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89415-Mongols-Hunnic-hordes-were-genociding-Caucasians

[Artek]

proto mongoloid, meaning that they became more mongoloid? Kind of like there was genetic drift or something?

Q barely exists outside of americas any more, but we know all about some populations that did have the red hair and we know had Q, but they only exist in remnants now. We also have archaeology and native stories that say the more ancient peoples in the americas did have red hair. Since it's recessive it washes out fairly quick. Since it is disadvantageous in southern areas due to skin cancer it will wash out even faster there. So for some of these guys to have it means they basically all had it at some point, whether you like it or not, IE back when it split off from its brother clades.

Have you seen the whole film? Experts say that dark pigment degrades more quickly after death therefore hair of such mummy gains a reddish tint.


Then we go to N and we have the finns. This is what a mongolian type used to look like, the changes have not been due to evolution but due to race mixing from the main population centers of the world, the middle east and east asia. Which dwarf the siberian and central asian populations so of course they take on more of their character over time, while the east asians stay the same.
So the Finns are the original Mongoloid type, are you serious? Have you even studied haplogroup N phylogeny to figure out which groups descend from each other?


The mongolians aren't mongolian any more, the greek aren't greek any more
Modern Greeks don't look exactly like ancient Greeks and they don't have their exact genetics, that's right. It always changed, genetic makeup is plastic due to migrations and various deographic phenomena. What are the Greeks, in such case.

he blacks only turned black recently and only got to africa recently
So an original population of Africa was proto-white? We all descend from archaic monkey-like humanoids anyway. And we share about 50% of our genome with banana

population of england has been wholly replaced many times over,
Modern population of native Englishmen descend from the medieval population, just after the Black Death pandemic.

people in central asian were wholly white even in historic times - mongols were white, just like all the oldest references and artwork describe.
They were "white-skinned", not white sensu stricta.

[Peikko]

Then we go to N and we have the finns. This is what a mongolian type used to look like, the changes have not been due to evolution but due to race mixing from the main population centers of the world, the middle east and east asia. Which dwarf the siberian and central asian populations so of course they take on more of their character over time, while the east asians stay the same.

The mongolians aren't mongolian any more, the greek aren't greek any more, the blacks only turned black recently and only got to africa recently, population of england has been wholly replaced many times over, people in central asian were wholly white even in historic times - mongols were white, just like all the oldest references and artwork describe.
http://www.nwps.ws/pub/forum-gifs/conan-rofl.gif

[Smeagol]

Modern population of native Englishmen descend from the medieval population, just after the Black Death pandemic.


You think modern English aren't descended from the ancient English then?

[Philo]

J2 has a very wide distribution. All the way frmo Italy to India.
J2 pride worldwide! :P


The Khazars and Bulgars were different tribes and both properly had Q but Khazars had more.

Khazars had some Mongoloid people in burials, but none of the burials Bulgars were Mongoloid the best they got was predominately Caucasoid with some Mongoloid admixture

This is a Bulgar

http://s39.radikal.ru/i085/0904/b0/27ae963ff45a.jpg

This is a Khazar

http://i48.tinypic.com/2ypeotk.jpg

The Bulgar one is fugly.

[Stears]

So are you claiming that native Americans were originally caucasoid? Look at Arteks post.

What comes to your anthropological study, could you provide me a link or source? How can anyone tell the difference between alpine and turanid, when the latter isn't even a real phenotype? Who conducted that study, some turanist?

The turanid racial term was born in a linguistic conference in Hungary in the 1880s. So it is a racial invention of linguist scholars :)))) Turanid race exist among turks and central Asia, but it is not exist in Hungary. All alpine people are considered automatically ( falsely ) as "turanid" in Hungary.

[Stears]

I think one branch of R1a was brought with Turkic Q to Saudi Arabia.

Laughable map with old data. Haplogroup Q is more frequent in Slavic countries than in Hungary :)))

[Peikko]

The turanid racial term was born in a linguistic conference in Hungary in the 1880s. So it is a racial invention of linguist scholars :)))) Turanid race exist among turks and central Asia, but it is not exist in Hungary. All alpine people are considered automatically ( falsely ) as "turanid" in Hungary.
Yes, it's laughable. What's interesting about Alpines is, that some anthropologists considered Lappid-type to be the "purest" alpine. Both alpine and lappid-phenotype can sometimes have some similar features, mainly both are very brachycephalic and flat headed. It seems, that Alpines sometimes have chinky eyes and prominent cheek bones, which gives a "turanid" impression.

[blogen]

Yes, it's laughable. What's interesting about Alpines is, that some anthropologists considered Lappid-type to be the "purest" alpine. Both alpine and lappid-phenotype can sometimes have some similar features, mainly both are very brachycephalic and flat headed. It seems, that Alpines sometimes have chinky eyes and prominent cheek bones, which gives a "turanid" impression.

The Alpinoid and the Turanid is two different thing.

[Stears]

The Alpinoid and the Turanid is two different thing.

Yes, and therefore the invention of "turanid race of Hungary" by (by fallen Hungarian turan - linguists ) is laughable.

[Peikko]

The Alpinoid and the Turanid is two different thing.
Explain turanid phenotype, please. What are the metrics (facial index, C.I., etc.)? Are turanids long or short? Do they have long limbs or short limbs? How do they differ from alpines?

[Damião de Góis]

So E-V13 is Berid or SSA?

There are two types of E1b: Balkan and Berber.

[blogen]

Explain turanid phenotype, please. What are the metrics (facial index, C.I., etc.)? Are turanids long or short? Do they have long limbs or short limbs? How do they differ from alpines?

Hungarian Turanids:

stature: high
head: brachycephalic, hyperbrachycephalic
face: very wide, euryprosopic
zygomatic bone: flat (forward projecting)
gonion: high
forehead: steep
nose bridge: straight and medium outstanding from the face
nape: weakly convex
eye color: brown or green
hari color: brown or black

And the metrics of tree Hungarian Turanid women:

type: Alföldi type / Mongolo-Turanid / Andronovo type
height: 166 / 161 / 164
head length: 184 / 188 / 177
minimum frontal: 158 / 160 / 157
interzygomatic breadth: 148 / 154 / 151
morphological facial height: 118 / 119 / 120
angle of the mandible: 109 / 117 / 116
nasal height: 50 / 50 / 51
nasal breadth: 34 / 38 /32
cephalic index: 85,87 / 85,11 / 88,7
face index: 79.73 / 77.27 / 79.47
eye color (Martin-Schulz): 14 / 15 / 14
hair color (Fischer-Saller): V / X / X

source: Henkey Gyula—Kalmár Sándor: Csépa etnikai-embertani képe - Damjanich János Múzeum, 1982

The most visible difference between the Turanid and Alpinoid is in the proportions of the face (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5492/k5lg.jpg) because of the zygomatic bone's difference (http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/520/hy79.jpg). Therefore the two types cannot be confused.

[Peikko]

Hungarian Turanids:

stature: high
head: brachycephalic, hyperbrachycephalic
face: very wide, euryprosopic
zygomatic bone: flat (forward projecting)
gonion: high
forehead: steep
nose bridge: straight and medium outstanding from the face
nape: weakly convex
eye color: brown or green
hari color: brown or black

And the metrics of tree Hungarian Turanid women:

type: Alföldi type / Mongolo-Turanid / Andronovo type
height: 166 / 161 / 164
head length: 184 / 188 / 177
minimum frontal: 158 / 160 / 157
interzygomatic breadth: 148 / 154 / 151
morphological facial height: 118 / 119 / 120
angle of the mandible: 109 / 117 / 116
nasal height: 50 / 50 / 51
nasal breadth: 34 / 38 /32
cephalic index: 85,87 / 85,11 / 88,7
face index: 79.73 / 77.27 / 79.47
eye color (Martin-Schulz): 14 / 15 / 14
hair color (Fischer-Saller): V / X / X

source: Henkey Gyula—Kalmár Sándor: Csépa etnikai-embertani képe - Damjanich János Múzeum, 1982

The most visible difference between the Turanid and Alpinoid is in the proportions of the face (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5492/k5lg.jpg) because of the zygomatic bone's difference (http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/520/hy79.jpg). Therefore the two types cannot be confused.

So the forward projecting would be something like the girl to the right:
http://majorityrights.com/images/uploads/cho.jpg

[blogen]

So the forward projecting would be something like the girl to the right:
http://majorityrights.com/images/uploads/cho.jpg

Or she:

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3318/2kp3.jpg

These proportions (single or twofold eye height under the eye) (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5492/k5lg.jpg) are relatively constant. So if you look at the calm face a little bit laterally (than on this picture) then the form of the zygomatic bone is visible.

[Zmey Gorynych]

So the forward projecting would be something like the girl to the right:
http://majorityrights.com/images/uploads/cho.jpg
IMO that girl is not turanid and her cheekbones are not that strong. Blogen is right, Turanid and Alpinoid are two different types and shouldn't be confused. I disagree with him on the issue of zygomatic breadth and the shape of cheekbones for I don't believe that projecting cheekbones are necessarily a mongoloid trait. Cro-Magnons are known to have very high, wide zygomatic bones yet CM is not a mongoloid phenotype.

Mads Mikkelsen has forward jutting cheekbones.

http://ak.c.ooyala.com/lwb3NuYToHrefO8x8TUzU08R7sMaYnOd/MGngRNnbuHoiqTJH4xMDoxOjBrO-I4W8
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b0/ec/56/b0ec56ad63b1e2969eb9b37bd1c47b60.jpg
http://31.media.tumblr.com/0df933b6d37f5929a9607e0b7c2b0056/tumblr_mp33xnvqN41qmfr3fo1_500.png

[blogen]

IMO that girl is not turanid and her cheekbones are not that strong. Blogen is right, Turanid and Alpinoid are two different types and shouldn't be confused. I disagree with him on the issue of zygomatic breadth and the shape of cheekbones for I don't believe that projecting cheekbones are necessarily a mongoloid trait. Cro-Magnons are known to have very high, wide zygomatic bones yet CM is not a mongoloid phenotype.

Wide and an a little bit flat, but basically not forward projecting:

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/9959/z402.jpg
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2223/24tt.jpg

This is not too deceptive.

[blogen]

Mads Mikkelsen has forward jutting cheekbones.

Good example, but this is not quite flat based on the proportions:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6603/c4lw.jpg

Average Caucasoid: 1:1
Cromagnoid: 1:1,25 sometimes 1,5
Europo-Mongoloid and Mongoloid: 1:2

[Tropico]

There are two types of E1b: Balkan and Berber.

So someone could have E1b1b1a2 and it could be from either Berber origin OR Balkan?

[Damião de Góis]

So someone could have E1b1b1a2 and it could be from either Berber origin OR Balkan?

There are loads of E variants. I know there's a Berber and a Balkan one, but i'm not an expert on E1b

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a2_(E-V13).jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Y_Hap_EM-81.PNG

[Tropico]

There are loads of E variants. I know there's a Berber and a Balkan one, but i'm not an expert on E1b

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a2_(E-V13).jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Y_Hap_EM-81.PNG

Are there any YDNA tests on FTDNA for example that can pinpoint where exactly your YDNA is from?

[Kastrioti1443]

Are there any YDNA tests on FTDNA for example that can pinpoint where exactly your YDNA is from?

You have a berber E1b haplogroup, there are different kinds of E1b and the only european one is Ev-13 ( european subclade of E-M78), which is found almost only in balkan and , parts of south italy and spain.

[Tropico]

You have a berber E1b haplogroup, there are different kinds of E1b and the only european one is Ev-13 ( european subclade of E-M78), which is found almost only in balkan and , parts of south italy and spain.

How would one distinguish if their E1b1b1a2 was European or Berber. In my case I have ancestry from Spain and North Africa. Does no DNA delve into which type of E1b1b1a2 is Berber and which one is European?

[Oneeye]

How would one distinguish if their E1b1b1a2 was European or Berber. In my case I have ancestry from Spain and North Africa. Does no DNA delve into which type of E1b1b1a2 is Berber and which one is European?

I have a berber yDNA haplogroup, and yet no North African ancestry...well, none recent enough to show anything on my autosomal DNA anyways. Maybe doing one of the more in depth tests into your yDNA could get some interesting results, I plan on doing that sometime myself.

[Tropico]

I have a berber yDNA haplogroup, and yet no North African ancestry...well, none recent enough to show anything on my autosomal DNA anyways. Maybe doing one of the more in depth tests into your yDNA could get some interesting results, I plan on doing that sometime myself.

Are you sure yours is Berber? Mines E-V13 (E1b1b1a2) which is European and not Berber yet people on here are saying its Berber when Genetic Anthropologists have said its not.

[Oneeye]

Are you sure yours is Berber? Mines E-V13 (E1b1b1a2) which is European and not Berber yet people on here are saying its Berber when Genetic Anthropologists have said its not.

I have E-V12, it is highest in Egypt and Sudan, I think, and found in low numbers in Europe... the highest being amongst the French Basques.

[Tropico]

I have E-V12.
E-V12* individuals are found at especially high levels (44.3%) in Southern Egyptians, but also scattered widely in small amounts in both Northern Africa and Europe, but with very little sign in Western Asia, apart from Turkey (Cruciani et al. (2007)).

Wow interesting. So whats your exact known ancestry then?

E-V13 has a different story. Funny how a small difference in the last number can make that much of a difference. I dont know why people are saying my YDNA is more likely to be North African vs South Euro.
Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

[Fire Haired]

Are you sure yours is Berber? Mines E-V13 (E1b1b1a2) which is European and not Berber yet people on here are saying its Berber when Genetic Anthropologists have said its not.

Ur E1b1b V13 is from Spain there is a 7,000 year old Neolithic E1b1b V13 sample in northern Spain. It spread to Europe probably from the mid east in the Neolithic age mainly 9,000-6,000ybp. It originated in the mid east so i guess it has been in Europe for over 6,000 years but originally mid eastern. E1b1b it self originated in Africa i dont know if north or sub Saharan Africa. But i do know Y DNA E is originally from sub saharan Africa it is not in the non African Y DNA family. It is dominate in most sub sharan Africans. Also Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, the Wright brothers, and Lyndon B. Johnson(36th President of USA had E1b1b (Obama is not the first president with sub sahran African blood). Those are very important people from the 20th century. Napoleon and Hitler so two of the most evil conquers in the last 200 years had E1b1b and the inventors of the airplane and one of the greatest Scientists of the 1900's.

[Tropico]

Ur E1b1b V13 is from Spain there is a 7,000 year old Neolithic E1b1b V13 sample in northern Spain. It spread to Europe probably from the mid east in the Neolithic age mainly 9,000-6,000ybp. It originated in the mid east so i guess it has been in Europe for over 6,000 years but originally mid eastern. E1b1b it self originated in Africa i dont know if north or sub Saharan Africa. But i do know Y DNA E is originally from sub saharan Africa it is not in the non African Y DNA family. It is dominate in most sub sharan Africans. Also Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, the Wright brothers, and Lyndon B. Johnson(36th President of USA had E1b1b (Obama is not the first president with sub sahran African blood). Those are very important people from the 20th century. Napoleon and Hitler so two of the most evil conquers in the last 200 years had E1b1b and the inventors of the airplane and one of the greatest Scientists of the 1900's.

So how would this Neolithic Iberian man look or would have lived? Are there any papers on these Neolithic peoples?

[Proto-Shaman]

Yeah I've read about them. What I don't understand is why Ashina Saka since the Ashina's seem to be Turkic but Saka is an Iranian language group?
I personally think that the Ashina clan was certainly of Saka origin, in particular from the Turkic hemisphere. This idea is seconded by various leading Turkologists. Some say they were an Iranian speaking royal house who established the "Royal House of the Gokturks" a well. The base is the Iranian Khotan Saka language, where we find the word "asseina", which means blue => hence Turkic "GOK-turks" = "Blue/Celestials". The problem is that "asseina" is in my mind a Finno-Ugric word, which stands for blue in all Finno-Ugric languages and only some Slavic languages.

Finnish = sininen
Estonian = sinine
Bulgarian = sin
Macedonian = sina
Polish = siny
Ukrainian = sinij
Russian = sinij

but...
Persian = ebÿ

So I don't get why some historians link it with Iranian at all, since it is a well established supposition that the Saka cultural horizon also consisted of big non-Iranian portions.

[Accountant]

They actually have 0.7% but anyway like I said before mongoloid admixture vanquishes in 7 generations

1 generation 50%
2 generation 25%
3 generation 12.5%
4 generation 6.25%
5 generation 3.12%
6 generation 1.66%
7 generation 0.75%

Butlerking's flawless theory:

Mongoloid men walked to Europe and kept finding pure caucasoid women (and nothing else) to reproduce with. Somehow this kept happening for hundreds of years. Thus, Northeastern Europeans were born!

[sevruk]

Butlerking's flawless theory:

Mongoloid men walked to Europe and kept finding pure caucasoid women (and nothing else) to reproduce with. Somehow this kept happening for hundreds of years. Thus, Northeastern Europeans were born!

lol

[Peikko]

Butlerking's flawless theory:

Mongoloid men walked to Europe and kept finding pure caucasoid women (and nothing else) to reproduce with. Somehow this kept happening for hundreds of years. Thus, Northeastern Europeans were born!
Yeah, he has his wet dreams. He got banned from anthroscape, he was the biggest Asia-basher there. Here's a list of his topics :P
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/search/?c=4&mid=1828720

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Butlerking's flawless theory:

Mongoloid men walked to Europe and kept finding pure caucasoid women (and nothing else) to reproduce with. Somehow this kept happening for hundreds of years. Thus, Northeastern Europeans were born!

Finns / Saami are closest to Cro Magnon man the original European!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_u7NyW2SaZlE/TSRaQkMRzqI/AAAAAAAAAGs/PgH5vY1Ctto/s500/Brace2005-Fig2.png

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So how would this Neolithic Iberian man look or would have lived? Are there any papers on these Neolithic peoples?
This is only one sample, found among other stuff. I seriously doubt they were the norm at the time. It's probably mediterranean stuff that came to iberia and got largely mixed away with other stuff, and you are probably from more recent mediterranean admixture.

Nobody really knows, though. It's really all speculation for the most part and so far the genetic sampels found were not what were expected. But the sample size is so small I don't think we can make too much conclusion yet. We especially can't know stuff like what they looked like or language they spoke etc. This changes really fast and can only be pinned down if we can find translatable writing or surviving artwork. Things that seem obvious now might not be the reality when we go back 5k years or more.

[Anglojew]

I personally think that the Ashina clan was certainly of Saka origin, in particular from the Turkic hemisphere. This idea is seconded by various leading Turkologists. Some say they were an Iranian speaking royal house who established the "Royal House of the Gokturks" a well. The base is the Iranian Khotan Saka language, where we find the word "asseina", which means blue => hence Turkic "GOK-turks" = "Blue/Celestials". The other problem is that in "asseina" is in my mind a Finno-Ugric word, which stands for blue in all Finno-Ugric languages and only some Slavic languages.

Finnish = sininen
Estonian = sinine
Bulgarian = sin
Macedonian = sina
Polish = siny
Ukrainian = sinij
Russian = sinij

but...
Persian = ebÿ

So I don't get why some historians link it with Iranian at all, since it is a well established supposition that the Saka cultural horizon also consisted of big non-Iranian portions.

So where they Iranian, Finno-Ugric, Turkic or something else? There seems to be many competing theories.

[blogen]

I personally think that the Ashina clan was certainly of Saka origin, in particular from the Turkic hemisphere. This idea is seconded by various leading Turkologists. Some say they were an Iranian speaking royal house who established the "Royal House of the Gokturks" a well. The base is the Iranian Khotan Saka language, where we find the word "asseina", which means blue => hence Turkic "GOK-turks" = "Blue/Celestials". The other problem is that in "asseina" is in my mind a Finno-Ugric word, which stands for blue in all Finno-Ugric languages and only some Slavic languages.

Finnish = sininen
Estonian = sinine
Bulgarian = sin
Macedonian = sina
Polish = siny
Ukrainian = sinij
Russian = sinij

but...
Persian = ebÿ

Iranian: ṣ̌īn - means: green, blue, for example: ئاسمانيكى شين = blue sky or Pashtun شين šín = blue (sky).

source: Uralic Etymological Database (http://www.uralonet.nytud.hu/eintrag.cgi?id_eintrag=1555)


Persian = ebÿ

ebÿ? Really?

The Persian āb = water, ābi = color of the water, blue

source: Steingass, Francis Joseph: A Comprehensive Persian-English dictionary, including the Arabic words and phrases to be met with in Persian literature. - London: Routledge & K. Paul, 1892

But there is an other Iranian word onto the blue colour, for example the the Avestan axšaena* means dark color, dark blue or the Saka axsaina = dark blue, Sogdian agsaynak, old Persian axsainaka = dark blue.

*the Greek name of the Black sea (Axenos) originates from this.

source: Róna-Tas András: The Christianity of the Hungarians before the Conquest - Nemzetközi Magyar Filológiai Társaság, 1998

[Kale]

Not to get back on the whole Haplogroup R being mongoloid thing...but here's a crazy idea. Maybe environment actually has something to do with evolution! :shocked:

IJK is caucasoid, it originates in the Middle East, a caucasoid region.
MNOPS is mongoloid, all its branches (M, N, O, Q, and S, but not R) originate in East Asia and Siberia, mongoloid regions.

But wait, IJK is an ancestor of MNOPS! So that must mean mongoloids (the MNOPS) came from more caucasoid types (the IJK).

So why is R the only one left out of MNOPS in being mongoloid? Simple, because it emerged in the Middle East, the same place as its ancestor (IJK). And being that it emerged in the same environment (Middle East) it kept the same features (caucasoid). M, N, O, Q, and S on the other hand all emerged in far different environments; those of East Asia and Siberia. Hence they developed the mongoloid phenotype as an adaptation to that environment.

[Anglojew]

Not to get back on the whole Haplogroup R being mongoloid thing...but here's a crazy idea. Maybe environment actually has something to do with evolution! :shocked:

IJK is caucasoid, it originates in the Middle East, a caucasoid region.
MNOPS is mongoloid, all its branches (M, N, O, Q, and S, but not R) originate in East Asia and Siberia, mongoloid regions.

But wait, IJK is an ancestor of MNOPS! So that must mean mongoloids (the MNOPS) came from more caucasoid types (the IJK).

So why is R the only one left out of MNOPS in being mongoloid? Simple, because it emerged in the Middle East, the same place as its ancestor (IJK). And being that it emerged in the same environment (Middle East) it kept the same features (caucasoid). M, N, O, Q, and S on the other hand all emerged in far different environments; those of East Asia and Siberia. Hence they developed the mongoloid phenotype as an adaptation to that environment.

I agree with most of your logic but then was Q mongoloid originally as it was a sister of R? I think it's more likely they were both proto-caucasoid/mongoloid

[Smeagol]

I agree with most of your logic but then was Q mongoloid originally as it was a sister of R? I think it's more likely they were both proto-caucasoid/mongoloid

That's what I think too.

[Artek]

I think that original R was neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid.

The westward migration of R1* derivatives (R1b and R1a) connected with obtaining Caucasoid of upper paleolithic, mesolithic or finally neolithic background resulted in looks that we have today.

But on the other hand, as Kale stated - mongoloid MNOPS derives from IJK which is considered Caucasoid(should be HIJK properly). Which theory is right?
What has environment to do with it? We need more fossils that were in-between.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I think that original R was neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid.

The westward migration of R1* derivatives (R1b and R1a) connected with obtaining Caucasoid of upper paleolithic, mesolithic or finally neolithic background resulted in looks that we have today.

The problem here is that it's not easy to really say what migration patterns were really like and the early ones have changed a lot of times, often back and forth. When the wheel was invented migrations completely changed, and horseback riding had a huge difference too, leading to raids and such being possible as a whole way of life but these things did't become a big issue til maybe 7k years ago.



But on the other hand, as Kale stated - mongoloid MNOPS derives from IJK which is considered Caucasoid(should be HIJK properly). Which theory is right?
What has environment to do with it? We need more fossils that were in-between.

There's three issues at work here.

For most of prehistory there's only two issues, though:
1. Genetic Drift.

2. Selection.

So the question becomes how did the initial big splits form. Like I mentioned a few times it's really, really hard to go from black to white. It's multigenic and it's dominant. Basically, drift isn't going to do it. The idea that there were some black guys and white guys randomly formed out of them just isn't possible. All the stuff you see about albinos is always some defect, when what's really different is a lack of a whole ton of genes, dozens of them. So the theory would be that one small group had these mutations and then they are the ones that went out of africa and due to a founder effect that means that everyone out of africa had these light genes. But, that's basically impossible.

So it's got to be selection. That means over time whoever came out of wherever or went to wherever and whatever their original state, they slowly evolved all these skin genes. Ones for dark skin are selected against heavily outside africa where they have no benefit so potentially they did start off black and the black dna got slowly weeded out in eurasia. Or maybe they were not so black then or something, and became more black even as asians got more asian.

The difference here is that we realize (admit) there's a big variations in groups, as pretty much had to be the case back then when groups were small and not that interconnected. Some of these differences then would indeed be drift. Maybe the mongolian head shape is all drift, maybe there's some genes that have some unknown benefit that lead to it from there.

However, that's ancient prehistory. It's done, and doesn't apply so much any more because now we have larger more highly interconnected groups. This leads to what's called acceleration. That means that drift is now nada, zip, zero. You can stop even worrying about it (that's not important for what anyone has said here but it's very important for debunking some of the more educated yet just as ridiculous ideas that come out in papers now and again). Now it's all selection and simple mixing (human agencies like war or immigration are completely outside of drift or selection of course).

And that's what the driving factor has been for the last few thousand years. When you realize that everything I've said starts to make sense. It makes sense the peruvians are way lighter than the eskimos even though the eskimos are in the arctic circle and get no benefit at all from being dark. And the biggest force by far has been the mongol hordes. Not only that they have expanded greatly but that they have taken captives and slaves from around the world. So they have changed the character around them and also their own character as they went, and of course they genocided up the vast majority of the persians and quite a few other groups so suddenly some ethnic groups that were fringe dwellers became a big part of the world and others shrank a lot or were simply wiped out.

Human agency is outside all that. But, the important thing is we don't have to guess. Like I said we have done the human genome project now. We know what african genes are, we know who has them. We know where the light and dark skin genes come from too. It's gone from small distinct groups to large and indistinct blurry groups, and it's happened relatively quickly.

[Kale]

I did not mean my last statement as 100% concrete. Just made it rather general to demonstrate the point. Getting into details, perhaps branches of Q or even N were caucasoid, depending on where and when they split from the others.

[ButlerKing]

Butlerking's flawless theory:

Mongoloid men walked to Europe and kept finding pure caucasoid women (and nothing else) to reproduce with. Somehow this kept happening for hundreds of years. Thus, Northeastern Europeans were born!


My theory including Russian theory is like this

I have never said Mongoloid men were banging women from Europe and received N.

Mongoloid men from comb ceramic culture from 6000 BC mated with women of Dnieper culture and gave them haplogroup N. That is why the uralics from 2000 BC and western Uralic group today have a mongoloid admixture of 20 to 35% today.

I've already said a freaking hundred times that the people who spread N to Europe look like these people who had 25-30% Mongoloid admixture.
http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1076153676877.jpeg
http://i45.tinypic.com/zj80oi.jpg

They mated with another tribe and produced Saami with 8-16% Mongoloid admixture

http://img2.custompublish.com/getfile.php/1469113.1332.etcbrfqayc/Saami+youth+seminar+in+Lovozero+29.01.11,+outside+ picture_550x367.jpg

Later Saami mixed with another northern European tribe and produced Finns with 5 - 12% Mongoloid admixture, this is why Finns have high percent of I aside from N


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXPqnSaVSbd10DKTW4A3W0sTXndVefN lfpqM-OOIrRRieZ6xGu

[Peikko]

My theory including Russian theory is like this

I have never said Mongoloid men were banging women from Europe and received N.

Mongoloid men from comb ceramic culture from 6000 BC mated with women of Dnieper culture and gave them haplogroup N. That is why the uralics from 2000 BC and western Uralic group today have a mongoloid admixture of 20 to 35% today.

You're contradicting yourself, because that's exactly what you're saying. Paternal line goes from father to son, don't you know this?


I've already said a freaking hundred times that the people who spread N to Europe look like these people who had 25-30% Mongoloid admixture.

They mated with another tribe and produced Saami with 8-16% Mongoloid admixture

Later Saami mixed with another northern European tribe and produced Finns with 5 - 12% Mongoloid admixture, this is why Finns have high percent of I aside from N

Your theory is just retarded. What the hell is your educational background? Pizza delivery boy? Saamis have different origins than Finns, they are a mix of some UP people who came from Iberia and some Eastern tribe. You also need to learn about the basic sub-clades of N1c1.

[ButlerKing]

You're contradicting yourself, because that's exactly what you're saying. Paternal line goes from father to son, don't you know this?


Your theory is just retarded. What the hell is your educational background? Pizza delivery boy? Saamis have different origins than Finns, they are a mix of some UP people who came from Iberia and some Eastern tribe. You also need to learn about the basic sub-clades of N1c1.

I didn't contradict myself while you claimed that I said Mongoloid men migration to europe banging some caucasoid women and gave them N,
that was never my theory I said it was uralic mix race men.

My theory is based on Russian theory that original people were Uralic.

Saamis DNA is just like Finns which in turn are like the swedish, both are northern european DNA.

[Peikko]

I didn't contradict myself while you claimed that I said Mongoloid men migration to europe banging some caucasoid women and gave them N,
that was never my theory I said it was uralic mix race men.

My theory is based on Russian theory that original people were Uralic.

Saamis DNA is just like Finns which in turn are like the swedish, both are northern european DNA.
Just read about the sub-clades, okay?

These are Russians BTW, you can see it on a first glance:
http://img2.custompublish.com/getfile.php/1469113.1332.etcbrfqayc/Saami+youth+seminar+in+Lovozero+29.01.11,+outside+ picture_550x367.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Just read about the sub-clades, okay?

These are Russians BTW, you can see it on a first glance:
http://img2.custompublish.com/getfile.php/1469113.1332.etcbrfqayc/Saami+youth+seminar+in+Lovozero+29.01.11,+outside+ picture_550x367.jpg


At first glance I saw them wearing Saami clothes.

Whatever the subclades of N finns origin was mongoloid

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Except that we know it's the other way around. N and Q and R descend from I not the other lulzy way around.

That's right, mongols descend from protosaami. Like we have been saying for 14 pages now. Mind. Blowd.

[Peikko]

At first glance I saw them wearing Saami clothes.

Whatever the subclades of N finns origin was mongoloid
N is found everywhere in Europe. Your origin is more Mongoloid than mine, it's just sad that you can't accept it.

[blogen]

N is found everywhere in Europe. Your origin is more Mongoloid than mine, it's just sad that you can't accept it.

Yeah, everywhere... :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG

[Peikko]

Yeah, everywhere... :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG
Yeah, everywhere including Spain and UK. Damn, you are ignorant. I guess it's your inferior turanid genes

[ButlerKing]

Yeah, everywhere including Spain and UK. Damn, you are ignorant. I guess it's your inferior turanid genes

Even if N was in spain or UK it doesn't prove N wasn't mongoloid since N by the time of Europe was mostly European. N in west europe could have been spread by Finns or the Vikings who have moderate percentage of N themselves.

[blogen]

Yeah, everywhere including Spain and UK. Damn, you are ignorant. I guess it's your inferior turanid genes

Jesus, you believe it really that the N haplogroup does not come from East-Eurasian populations!

[Peikko]

Jesus, you believe it really that the N haplogroup does not come from East-Eurasian populations!
N comes from China.

[sevruk]

Just read about the sub-clades, okay?

These are Russians BTW, you can see it on a first glance:
http://img2.custompublish.com/getfile.php/1469113.1332.etcbrfqayc/Saami+youth+seminar+in+Lovozero+29.01.11,+outside+ picture_550x367.jpg

These are Saami from Russia

[ButlerKing]

N comes from China.

It was though to have originated from southeast asia than spread to siberia than to north europe/east europe

[lei.talk]

Are there any pure Mongoloid ethnic groups with high amounts of N?
the ethnic group described in this post appears extremely mongoloid. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?4377&p=1433824&viewfull=1#post1433824)
*

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I posted in some other thread about elite dominance and genetic drift and showed for both Q and N we have groups that are almost wholly comprised of each, but which autosomally are either completely caucasion or completely mongoloid.

Basically if you have a small group you tend to become homogenous so changes mostly trickle out completely, but with enough outside exposure eventually the whole group takes on the new character.

So you could argue they were either way originally, except that historically we know that they got much more dark over time, and in south america the more south you go the lighter the natives get. Like I said many times, we don't have to guess or theorize any more we know the answer.

[ButlerKing]

I posted in some other thread about elite dominance and genetic drift and showed for both Q and N we have groups that are almost wholly comprised of each, but which autosomally are either completely caucasion or completely mongoloid.

Basically if you have a small group you tend to become homogenous so changes mostly trickle out completely, but with enough outside exposure eventually the whole group takes on the new character.

So you could argue they were either way originally, except that historically we know that they got much more dark over time, and in south america the more south you go the lighter the natives get. Like I said many times, we don't have to guess or theorize any more we know the answer.

There isn't a European group with N that doesn't have less than 0.7% Mongoloid admixture but there is 1 group with almost 100% N and have 0% European admixture.

[Tatar]

Sicilians are Autosomally 0% Mongoloid.

The haplogroup Q find in Sicilian population is Q1b like the jewish one so he was bringed probably by phoenician or something, and I tink it is the same thing for the amount of Q Y-DNA in France or iberian: probably bringed by jews.
On the other han the Q haplogroup of Ukraine, Hungary... is from mongoloid nomad like Avar and maybe Hun.
And don't forget the Q haplogroup was one of the main haplogroup of Gokturk (who were mongoloid) when gokturk had mostly caucasian mtdna.

[Tatar]

I agree with you for the N haplogroup for which we don't know the exact origine but sorry the Q haplogroup is obviously mongoloid since mostly mongoloid people posses him (especially when they have caucasian mtdna) + ancient mongoloid people like Xiongnu, gokturk and avar had the Q haplogroup when we don't know ancient indo-european or caucasian who had the Q haplogroup.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

There is no separate jew Q, it has to come from the same place even if it differentiated since then.


There isn't a European group with N that doesn't have less than 0.7% Mongoloid admixture but there is 1 group with almost 100% N and have 0% European admixture.

How many times have I said mongoloid = not dark, now? That is what I am saying, 100%. Not that they are not mongoloid but that mongoloid is not dark, that's not where the dark components come from. The N guys are white mongoloids, this alone is enough to prove it to anyone but you because they split from the same group.

Google elite dominance and then it will finally make sense why the mongol khan had red hair and yet now they are all dark. Lollers he was a redhed with very white skin (just like most his lietenants) just because sometimes it just randomly happens one in a billion times hehe!

[Tatar]

Probably Q1b more caucasoid and Q1a more mongoloid

[Smeagol]

Google elite dominance and then it will finally make sense why the mongol khan had red hair and yet now they are all dark. Lollers he was a redhed with very white skin (just like most his lietenants) just because sometimes it just randomly happens one in a billion times hehe!

A lot of Mongols actually have red hair, and white skin actually, but this is due to their Caucasoid ancestry.

[Tatar]

Yes but mostly southern european Q Y-DNA come from jews or phoenician when eastern european have their Q Y-DNA from Avar and Hun.

[Tatar]

There is no separate jew Q, it has to come from the same place even if it differentiated since then.



How many times have I said mongoloid = not dark, now? That is what I am saying, 100%. Not that they are not mongoloid but that mongoloid is not dark, that's not where the dark components come from. The N guys are white mongoloids, this alone is enough to prove it to anyone but you because they split from the same group.

Google elite dominance and then it will finally make sense why the mongol khan had red hair and yet now they are all dark. Lollers he was a redhed with very white skin (just like most his lietenants) just because sometimes it just randomly happens one in a billion times hehe!

That means nothing for the gokturks it was the contrary: mongoloid ruler and mixed people. Same thing for avar(if they were not a confederation of different tribes)

[ButlerKing]

There is no separate jew Q, it has to come from the same place even if it differentiated since then.



How many times have I said mongoloid = not dark, now? That is what I am saying, 100%. Not that they are not mongoloid but that mongoloid is not dark, that's not where the dark components come from. The N guys are white mongoloids, this alone is enough to prove it to anyone but you because they split from the same group.

Google elite dominance and then it will finally make sense why the mongol khan had red hair and yet now they are all dark. Lollers he was a redhed with very white skin (just like most his lietenants) just because sometimes it just randomly happens one in a billion times hehe!


There is actually no real evidence that Genghis khan red hair, it's only mentioned by the Persian history who never saw him. The Mongolians and Chinese do not mentioned he did have red hair. There was never mentioned he had white skin that was just some wrong interpretation.

But I do believe it though, simply because it pops out occasionally even today Mongolians. Where Mongolian families with black hair and black eyes give Mongolians with red hair and blue/green eyes


http://www.loveme.com/images/p81861-1.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/nfgqc5.jpg

[Gaston]

One of the most stupid discussion ever, with a retarded goal to begin with. Why are people writing in this section without shame? All I see is childish behaviour, no science in sight.

[Jonik]

Ancestor N1c1 was in S.Mongolia/N.China about 10,000 years ago. How many generation people did autosomal genetic mixture with other population?
Lithuanian mostly are South Balts, L1025+ (some also additional to L1025+ may have L551+, L1027+, L591+). Finn mostly L1025-.
You can see N tree on the picture in one of the North Eurasia project at FTDNA:
http://image-upload.de/image/hbQBB2/bee75dcb7e.jpg
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/N%20Russia%20%20DNA%20Project/

[Jonik]

I remember that Genghis khan more likely had Y-DNA: C3.

[Germaniac]

Speaking of E, as it came from DE, and D is only found at East Asia, I'd say E is middle eastern, and some clades of it went to Africa, others to Europe.

[Black Wolf]

One of the most stupid discussion ever, with a retarded goal to begin with. Why are people writing in this section without shame? All I see is childish behaviour, no science in sight.

Truly an excellent comment.

[Anglojew]

Probably Q1b more caucasoid and Q1a more mongoloid

Interesting. Which do tatars have more of?

[Germaniac]

Jewish Q is jewish, not from somewhere else. There's a sizeable Q minority in the Middle East.

[Germaniac]

I'd say the Jews from biblical times were a mix of J, E and Q types, mainly.

[ButlerKing]

Jewish Q is jewish, not from somewhere else. There's a sizeable Q minority in the Middle East.

Those came from the Turkmen who have 42.6% Q.

[Tropico]

So whats E-V13? Is is North African or Southern European ?

[Smeagol]

So whats E-V13? Is is North African or Southern European ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a2_(E-V13).jpg

[Tropico]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a2_(E-V13).jpg

Well specifically E-V13 from people who have mainly European heritage from Spain?

[Smeagol]

Well specifically E-V13 from people who have mainly European heritage from Spain?

I don't know. It seems to be most common in the Balkans.

[Germaniac]

E-V13 in Spain must have come firstly with the Phoenicians and Greeks, and then with roman soldiers of Balkan Origin and Jews. (Even though most "E" Jews are not E-V13, but E-V12).

[Artek]

E-V13 in Spain must have come firstly with the Phoenicians and Greeks, and then with roman soldiers of Balkan Origin and Jews. (Even though most "E" Jews are not E-V13, but E-V12).
Bullshit, first ancient EV-13 was found in Spain and came from Cardium Pottery culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery

That's the best EV-13 map ever:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

[Tropico]

Bullshit, first ancient EV-13 was found in Spain and came from Cardium Pottery culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery

So far ONE, I repeat ONE EV-13 sample was found in Spain. Thats hardly a clue to the composition of neolithic Spain at the time.

[Tropico]

The studies suggest that "the large-scale clinal patterns of Hg E and Hg J reflect a mosaic of numerous small-scale, more regional population movements, replacements, and subsequent expansions overlying previous ranges". Rather than a single, large-scale 'wave of advance' from the Near East, the apparent Hg J2 cline is produced by distinct populations movements emanating from different part of the Aegean and Near East, over a period stretching from the Neolithic to the Classical Period. Similarly, haplogroup E1b1b was also thought to have been introduced into the Balkans by Near Eastern agriculturalists. However, Cruciani et al. (2007) recently discovered that the large majority of haplogroup E1b1b lineages in Europe are represented by the sub-clade E1b1b1a2- V13, which is rare outside Europe. Cruciani, Battaglia and King all predict that V13 expanded from the Balkans. However, there has been no consensus as to exact timing of this expansion (King and Battalia favour a neolithic expansion, possibly coinciding with the adoption of farming by indigenous Balkaners, whilst Cruciani favours a Bronze Age expansion), nor as to where V13 actually arose (but point to somewhere in the southern Balkans or Anatolia).

[Artek]

So far ONE, I repeat ONE EV-13 sample was found in Spain. Thats hardly a clue to the composition of neolithic Spain at the time.
It indicates that EV-13 was a part of this neolithic Spain, probably along with G and I2 (maybe J?). Few millenias before the Jews, Greeks and Roman Soldiers.
There are also some extra subclades under the EV-13 but something better than 23andMe is needed.

[Tropico]

It indicates that EV-13 was a part of this neolithic Spain, probably along with G and I2 (maybe J?). Few millenias before the Jews, Greeks and Roman Soldiers.
There are also some extra subclades under the EV-13 but something better than 23andMe is needed.

Ive been wanting to get a deeper YDNA test but have no idea how to interpret the results.

[Artek]

Ive been wanting to get a deeper YDNA test but have no idea how to interpret the results.
This project may be heplful if you really need to have a deep ancestry: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b/ .

[Tatar]

Interesting. Which do tatars have more of?
According to genetic studies 2% of tatar are Q1a but I don't heard of Q1b

[Anglojew]

According to genetic studies 2% of tatar are Q1a but I don't heard of Q1b

That's why I think it's more Hunnic.

[Skywalker]

According to genetic studies 2% of tatar are Q1a but I don't heard of Q1b
See here for the Kadom Tatars haplogroup Q1b. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Tatarstan/default.aspx?section=yresults

[Anglojew]

See here for the Kadom Tatars haplogroup Q1b. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Tatarstan/default.aspx?section=yresults

It says Q under the actually haplogroup column even though the heading is Q1b for them?

[Stormer99]

The studies suggest that "the large-scale clinal patterns of Hg E and Hg J reflect a mosaic of numerous small-scale, more regional population movements, replacements, and subsequent expansions overlying previous ranges". Rather than a single, large-scale 'wave of advance' from the Near East, the apparent Hg J2 cline is produced by distinct populations movements emanating from different part of the Aegean and Near East, over a period stretching from the Neolithic to the Classical Period. Similarly, haplogroup E1b1b was also thought to have been introduced into the Balkans by Near Eastern agriculturalists. However, Cruciani et al. (2007) recently discovered that the large majority of haplogroup E1b1b lineages in Europe are represented by the sub-clade E1b1b1a2- V13, which is rare outside Europe. Cruciani, Battaglia and King all predict that V13 expanded from the Balkans. However, there has been no consensus as to exact timing of this expansion (King and Battalia favour a neolithic expansion, possibly coinciding with the adoption of farming by indigenous Balkaners, whilst Cruciani favours a Bronze Age expansion), nor as to where V13 actually arose (but point to somewhere in the southern Balkans or Anatolia).

Do you have Canary Islander ancestry? It could be Berber.

[Skywalker]

It says Q under the actually haplogroup column even though the heading is Q1b for them?
Yes only one of them has a SNP tested, but all the haplotypes fit the criteria for what the experts call Q1b. Here is another project you will find the Tatar Princes Q1b - Butakids in http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RussianNobilityDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

If you go to yDNA results and click on SNP it will show one Tatar Prince SNP tested. This is the one with the green Q they are positive for L314+ SNP, but they are are negative for SNP L245, which is the SNP that is associated with the Ashkenazi Q. Ashkenazi Q's will also be positive for SNP L314. Here is another good link to tie all of this in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-L275 Follow the tree down from Q-L275 under subgroups, and you will find L314 under it, and then it will go down to L245. Q-L275 is a Eurasian subclade.

Or also see here for the ISOGG 2013 Y-DNA Q and it's subclades tree http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpQ.html

Please keep in mind too not everyone tests for all SNPs, so you may not see exact same SNP results in these projects.

[Anglojew]

Yes only one of them has a SNP tested, but all the haplotypes fit the criteria for what the experts call Q1b. Here is another project you will find the Tatar Princes Q1b - Butakids in http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RussianNobilityDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

If you go to yDNA results and click on SNP it will show one Tatar Prince SNP tested. This is the one with the green Q they are positive for L314+ SNP, but they are are negative for SNP L245, which is the SNP that is associated with the Ashkenazi Q. Ashkenazi Q's will also be positive for SNP L314. Here is another good link to tie all of this in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-L275 Follow the tree down from Q-L275 under subgroups, and you will find L314 under it, and then it will go down to L245. Q-L275 is a Eurasian subclade.

Or also see here for the ISOGG 2013 Y-DNA Q and it's subclades tree http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpQ.html

Please keep in mind too not everyone tests for all SNPs, so you may not see exact same SNP results in these projects.

So what is your opinion of our Q1b? Where does my paternal line come from and how did it enter Judaism/Europe?

[Skywalker]

So what is your opinion of our Q1b? Where does my paternal line come from and how did it enter Judaism/Europe?
My personal feelings on where Q1b originated is where they say Q originated and that is Central Asia. Some of the Q1b had been found in China if you recall the link I sent you in another thread. Sure a couple of the Q1bs became Jewish, but how did they enter the Jewish population that is the interesting question. Keep in mind too certain populations tend to DNA test more such as Jewish people, or Americans of European descent. Because of this databases become top heavy so to speak with certain populations.

There are also Q1b guys who have been found in Iran, Iraq, Kuwait. But also in Kazakhstan, Dagestan, Pakistan. I'm sorry there was something else I wanted to add, but I have to go hit the hay so to speak. It is late for me now!

[Tropico]

Do you have Canary Islander ancestry? It could be Berber.

Its possible but E-V13 is rarely found in North Africa but is much more common in Southern Europe. Statistically a European origin is more likely, especially since I have more European ancestry than Berber.

[Artek]

Do you have Canary Islander ancestry? It could be Berber.
Berbers and Guanches have other clades of E1b

[Skywalker]

So what is your opinion of our Q1b? Where does my paternal line come from and how did it enter Judaism/Europe?
Sorry I pooped out on anymore answers to brainstorm about! It can both be fun and maddening at times. I think from the pattern that I can see with Q1b it shows that it was a "mobile tribe". By this I mean you can find it in a lot of places but at low frequencies. I don't know if we will ever really figure it out. In the next few months I will be upgrading and testing more STRs and SNPS, I will definitely let you know what that reveals for my paternal line. :)

[JeanBaMac]

Caucasoid Y-DNA




J1 semetic and Caucasus
J2 Semetic, Near eastern, Caucasus

R1b West Europeans
R1a East Europeans, Central Asians, South Asians

I North Europeans
G South Caucasus


Mongoloid

O3 Mongoloid Sino-Tibetan
O1 Mongoloid Austronesians
O2a Mongoloid Austro-Asiatic
O2b Mongoloid Northeast Asian


C3 Mongoloid Mongolic and South Siberian

D1 Mongoloid Tibetan and Tibeto-burmese
D3a Mongoloid Tibetan and Tibeto-burmese

Q Mongoloid Siberian

N Mongoloid north Siberian




Negroid


A Negroid Bantu-African
B Negroid Bantu African
Eb1a Negroid African

You have forgotten :

Caucasoid :
E1b1b : North Africa and Southeastern Europe
N1c1 : Caucasoid Northeastern European (Finno-Ugric, Baltic)
D2 : Mongoloid Ainu and Japanese

Australoid :
H & L : South Indian
C4 : Australian Aborigines

[JeanBaMac]

E is not caucasian it is levantine/na


So does the r1a in north america that came from the west. When you have uniform y-dna and small groups you soak up aDNA but keep Y-DNA homogenous due to genetic drift. That is you add small amounts of y-dna to a group of a thousand it trickles out fast. Add it to a million it trickles out slow.

Q and R are brothers and come from the same source so this can't happen but in fantasy land. There's no mongol to them originally.

*

[JeanBaMac]

Not to get back on the whole Haplogroup R being mongoloid thing...but here's a crazy idea. Maybe environment actually has something to do with evolution! :shocked:

IJK is caucasoid, it originates in the Middle East, a caucasoid region.
MNOPS is mongoloid, all its branches (M, N, O, Q, and S, but not R) originate in East Asia and Siberia, mongoloid regions.

But wait, IJK is an ancestor of MNOPS! So that must mean mongoloids (the MNOPS) came from more caucasoid types (the IJK).

So why is R the only one left out of MNOPS in being mongoloid? Simple, because it emerged in the Middle East, the same place as its ancestor (IJK). And being that it emerged in the same environment (Middle East) it kept the same features (caucasoid). M, N, O, Q, and S on the other hand all emerged in far different environments; those of East Asia and Siberia. Hence they developed the mongoloid phenotype as an adaptation to that environment.

M and S are Melanesian, not Mongoloid.

[ButlerKing]

Haplogroup Q and N is quite common in many parts of southeast asia and south china

[Natufian Kang]

A - Khoisan - Capoid
B - Pygmy - Negroid
C - Mongol - Mongoloid
D - Tibetan - Mongoloid
E1b1a - Bantu - Negroid
E1b1b - Afro-Asiatic - Caucasoid
F - Eurasian - ?
G - Caucasian - Caucasoid
H - Dravidian - Australoid
I - Old European - Caucasoid
J - Anatolian - Caucasoid
K - Aborigenal - Australoid
L - Harappan - Australoid
M - Aborigenal - Australoid
N - Finngoloid
O - Chinese - Mongoloid
P - Siberian - Mongoloid
Q - American - Mongoloid
R1a - Indo-European - Caucasoid
R1b - West-Eurasian - Caucasoid
T - Horner - Negroid

[Kelmendasi]

Subclades are what matter

[Ülev]

R1a & R1b = Steppe Warriors with amazing rounded top of head (example Arjen Robben probably R1b and Janusz Korwin Mikke, probably R1a)
IJ = Caucasoid (nowadays some I mixed with R1 and J with E)

https://78.media.tumblr.com/8932a922914a569226fca1545a038a05/tumblr_inline_ny4rjs3mdX1sxre9s_540.png
https://kundalinirising88.tumblr.com/post/133646599151/the-three-main-races

[Norb]

Subclades are what matter

I agree, I am getting very confused with my R1a, if I am z284 then I am not 'Germanic', then what the hell am I!??

[Norb]

R1a & R1b = Steppe Warriors with amazing rounded top of head (example Arjen Robben probably R1b and Janusz Korwin Mikke, probably R1a)
IJ = Caucasoid (nowadays some I mixed with R1 and J with E)

https://78.media.tumblr.com/8932a922914a569226fca1545a038a05/tumblr_inline_ny4rjs3mdX1sxre9s_540.png
https://kundalinirising88.tumblr.com/post/133646599151/the-three-main-races

I have a very pointed top of the head

[Kelmendasi]

I agree, I am getting very confused with my R1a, if I am z284 then I am not 'Germanic', then what the hell am I!??
Are you Z284? R1a-Z284 is the Scandinavian/Germanic branch of R1a

[kingjohn]

A - Khoisan - Capoid
B - Pygmy - Negroid
C - Mongol - Mongoloid
D - Tibetan - Mongoloid
E1b1a - Bantu - Negroid
E1b1b - Afro-Asiatic - Caucasoid
F - Eurasian - ?
G - Caucasian - Caucasoid
H - Dravidian - Australoid
I - Old European - Caucasoid
J - Anatolian - Caucasoid
K - Aborigenal - Australoid
L - Harappan - Australoid
M - Aborigenal - Australoid
N - Finngoloid
O - Chinese - Mongoloid
P - Siberian - Mongoloid
Q - American - Mongoloid
R1a - Indo-European - Caucasoid
R1b - West-Eurasian - Caucasoid
T - Horner - Negroid

don't agree on one thing T is not negroid
for god sake it was found in neolithic germany
maybe some clades of it are north african / middle eastern but some clades are european
thomas jefferson was T :)

[Norb]

Are you Z284? R1a-Z284 is the Scandinavian/Germanic branch of R1a

I dont know my subcade yet as I haven't tested, but have been reading lots lately that z284 is not Germanic

Is there an R1a subclade among German people from Germany that isn't Slavic or Baltic?

[Kelmendasi]

I dont know my subcade yet, but have been reading lots lately that z284 is not Germanic
Z284 is the clade present in Scandinavia and places settled by Scandinavians and thus linked to the north Germanic languages. "R1a-Z284 is a Scandinavian subclade with an epicentre in central Norway. It is found also in places colonised by the Norwegian Vikings, like some parts of Scotland, England and Ireland. Several subclades were identified, including L448, L176.1, Z287/Z288, Z66 and Z281 about which little is known at the moment"

[Kelmendasi]

Is there an R1a subclade among German people from Germany that isn't Slavic or Baltic?
Yh, R1a-L664 which is linked to the Germanic languages and is most common in NW Europe and is mainly found in western Germany. The R1a in east Germany though seems to be mainly Baltic and Slavic

[Kelmendasi]

Germanic R1a, accidentally cropped out L664 which is shown as the ancestor of the clades on the left labelled as :"Germanic":
https://s8.postimg.org/k8h96e99x/719235_LI.jpg

[Jana]

I dont know my subcade yet as I haven't tested, but have been reading lots lately that z284 is not Germanic

Is there an R1a subclade among German people from Germany that isn't Slavic or Baltic?

Z284 is Germanic, but strictly north Germanic. It's very uncommon in Germany (their R1a is mostly Slavic and Baltic).
If you are Z284, very likely have Norwegian Viking heritage.

[Voskos]

i have to agree with kingjohn above.

[Norb]

Z284 is Germanic, but strictly north Germanic. It's very uncommon in Germany (their R1a is mostly Slavic and Baltic).
If you are Z284, very likely have Norwegian Viking heritage.
Do you have any data that shows R1a subclades in Germany? I wonder what percentage of the R1a there is non Slavic or non Baltic??

[Kriptc06]

How would one distinguish if their E1b1b1a2 was European or Berber. In my case I have ancestry from Spain and North Africa. Does no DNA delve into which type of E1b1b1a2 is Berber and which one is European?

Berbers are E-M81 (E1b1b1b1a) mostly, some E-M123 (E1b1b1b2a1) and E-M78 (E1b1b1a1) too.

While E-V13 (E1b1b1a1b1a) is found almost exclusively in Europe, with minorities in the Middle East, and little to none in North Africa.
If a berber dude has E-V13 its very likely that he has iberian or other european ancestry.

hope this helps
https://arianasiresearch.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/ntiymzv9k3szntcxnde.jpg

[kingjohn]

bascily m35 is splitt to 2 main b=ranches
e-v68 and e-z827
http://i023.radikal.ru/1207/f3/e562f5c5cc1d.jpg
v13 is european as you say :thumb001:
m81 is more berber/ north west african and e-m123 is more middle eastern and horner .

[Jana]

Do you have any data that shows R1a subclades in Germany? I wonder what percentage of the R1a there is non Slavic or non Baltic??

10% maximum or less. Don't have exact data but heat map of R1a shows it well (it's frequent in areas settled by Slavs in past + some Prussians have baltic type of R1a)

[Kelmendasi]

Do you have any data that shows R1a subclades in Germany? I wonder what percentage of the R1a there is non Slavic or non Baltic??
R1a clades in Germany that are of Baltic or Slavic origin: "R1a-L260 is clearly West Slavic, with a peak of frequency in Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and radiating at lower frequencies into East Germany, East Austria, Slovenia and Hungary." "R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe (except in the Balkans), with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on."

[Norb]

R1a clades in Germany that are of Baltic or Slavic origin: "R1a-L260 is clearly West Slavic, with a peak of frequency in Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and radiating at lower frequencies into East Germany, East Austria, Slovenia and Hungary." "R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe (except in the Balkans), with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on."

How about R1a's that live in Germany but are not Slavic or Baltic subclades?

[jingorex]

did someone mention the O.G.?

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0122968.g002

[Kelmendasi]

How about R1a's that live in Germany but are not Slavic or Baltic subclades?
R1a-L664 which is mainly found in western Germany and is the Germanic branch of R1a alongside Z284 which is north Germanic.

A map of R1a clades in Europe:
https://pp.vk.me/c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg

[Jana]

"R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe (except in the Balkans), with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on."

Z280 is most common R1a type in Balkans actually (in BiH Serbia Montenegro) except for Bulgaria.

[Natufian Kang]

don't agree on one thing T is not negroid
for god sake it was found in neolithic germany
maybe some clades of it are north african / middle eastern but some clades are european
thomas jefferson was T :)

Its oldest subclade is in Middle East, but it peaks in the Horn so...

[kingjohn]

horners are not negros
or not pure negros they have Caucasoid
facial features
a huge southwest Asian element genetically speaking
and in terms of skin colour many of them carry slc24a5 derived {at least in Ethiopia}
haplogroup T is not negroid never was and never will be just some clades of it back migrated
to horn area it was found in pre- hispanic gaunches
in canary islands.