Thursatru

[Baron Samedi]

I found this a very interesting thing. Not very practical as far as general heathens are concerned (as this was written by an anti-cosmic Satanist with extreme interest in Nordic myths and the chaos paradigm), but I figure anyone interested in magick would enjoy this....

http://www.vexior.se/thursatru.html

[Psychonaut]

Define anti-cosmic. The author uses it all over the site, but I couldn't find a definition on there.

[~°2012°~]

Some neo-playgan making up another "religion" as he goes a long, which is fine until he starts claiming it has some root in "old tradition" and therefore should be regarded as something credible. Why does he not just admit that he made it up himself?



Shadow-Odin, Baldr’s Bane, The Evil!

Loki, you almighty king of black magic,
you bring evil to Midgard.

You burn of evil and sweat corroding fluid from Chaos’ oceans!
And we love you for it!

when you call upon Ragnarok
Macabre beast and cosmic destruction!

The Judaeo-Christian moral dualism is now so deep-seated within the European psyche that even those pagans who think they are outside the Christian context are as dualized as any Christling. He like most neo-playgans is rambling about "old norse traditions" but still has a cosmology that is essentially Christian. They have dualized the Aesir & the Jotuns and Þursar into contending moral forces of "good vs. evil". Óðin (or Bladur) is their Jesus/Jehovah. Loki is their Satan. Ragnarök is their Christian Armageddon. The whole significance of Indo-European cyclic cosmology has been rendered null and void.

[Aemma]

Some neo-playgan making up another "religion" as he goes a long, which is fine untill he starts claiming it has some root in "old tradition" and therefore should be regarded as something credible. Why does he not just admit that he made it up by himself?



The Judaeo-Christian moral dualism is now so deep-seated within the European psyche that even those pagans who think they are outside the Christian context are as dualized as any Christling. Hes like most neo-playgans rambling about "old norse traditions" but still has a cosmology that is essentially Christian. They have dualized the Aesir & the Jotuns and Þursar into contending moral forces of "good vs. evil". Óðin (or Bladur) is their Jesus/Jehovah. Loki is their Satan. Ragnarök is their Christian Armageddon. The whole significance of Indo-European cyclic cosmology has been rendered null and void.

I think we can thank Snorri for some of that thought though Dr. Who. Certainly reading the Prose Edda without any contextual background would lead anybody to deduce what you have just described. And I agree, it is sad. :)



On a related:

I have a very dear Heathen friend who actually, not only acknowledges but most ardently includes the Jotnar in the greater complement of our pantheon. For him, the Jotnar are as important as the Aesir and Vanir and reflect the more raw elemental type of deity, for lack of a better term. He realises that he skirts with near heresy (:D) in most Heathen circles but his focus has nothing to do with "black magic" or satanic ritual or anti-cosmic whatever-that-was. He venerates the elemental powers portrayed by the Jotnar as the first order of deities, even more elemental than the Aesir. And when you think about it, it all works: Jotnar, Aesir and Vanir as overlays if you will of our history and spiritual path.

Good food for thought bit, Hemingway! Thanks for this!

Cheers all!...Aemma :)

[~°2012°~]

I think we can thank Snorri for some of that thought though

Yes you are right. Snorri has much to do with this.


I have a very dear Heathen friend who actually, not only acknowledges but most ardently includes the Jotnar in the greater complement of our pantheon. For him, the Jotnar are as important as the Aesir and Vanir and reflect the more raw elemental type of deity, for lack of a better term. He realises that he skirts with near heresy (:D) in most Heathen circles but his focus has nothing to do with "black magic" or satanic ritual or anti-cosmic whatever-that-was. He venerates the elemental powers portrayed by the Jotnar as the first order of deities, even more elemental than the Aesir. And when you think about it, it all works: Jotnar, Aesir and Vanir as overlays if you will of our history and spiritual path.

Óðin himself is half Jötun, he is son of the Jötun Bölþorn as are his brothers Vilji and Vé. But Þursar and Jötnar never had and don't need a special "trú" for themselves, as they are essential part of the whole Nordic cosmology, they represent the chaotic forces that break down matter, destroy order and life, they are always regarded as equally important as the Æsir and Vanir because they are the catalysts for change; so the cycle can continue: creation-destruction-renewal. This is the inexorable process that can be observed in both History & Nature. There is no need for this kind of Dualism.

[Baron Samedi]

Define anti-cosmic. The author uses it all over the site, but I couldn't find a definition on there.

Anti-Cosmic Satanism is very hard for me to put into words, I reccomend you read up on what the Temple of the Black Light (Ex-Misanthropic Luciferian Order) says regarding the matter.

http://www.templeoftheblacklight.net/main.html

They really are a different sort of branch of Satanism, one that is, admittedly, very appealing to me.


Some neo-playgan making up another "religion" as he goes a long, which is fine untill he starts claiming it has some root in "old tradition" and therefore should be regarded as something credible. Why does he not just admit that he made it up by himself?



The Judaeo-Christian moral dualism is now so deep-seated within the European psyche that even those pagans who think they are outside the Christian context are as dualized as any Christling. Hes like most neo-playgans rambling about "old norse traditions" but still has a cosmology that is essentially Christian. They have dualized the Aesir & the Jotuns and Þursar into contending moral forces of "good vs. evil". Óðin (or Bladur) is their Jesus/Jehovah. Loki is their Satan. Ragnarök is their Christian Armageddon. The whole significance of Indo-European cyclic cosmology has been rendered null and void.

I don't think it's so much as an "evil" thing, but a "Chaos" thing.

Anti-Cosmic practitioners yearn to be one with Chaos, whether in this life or in death.

They also very much see this world as an illusion.

Actually, here is a better link that goes into more detail about the MLO/TOBL and Liber Azerate.

http://mabusincarnate.8.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1892&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=4d59a27b1502b205055a0dc9c02925da

[Aemma]

Yes you are right. Snorri has much to do with this.


Óðin himself is half Jötun, he is the son of the Jötun Bölþorn as are his brothers Vilji and Vé. But Þursar and Jötnar never had and don't need a special "trú" for themselves, as they are essential part of the whole Nordic cosmology, they represent the chaotic forces that brake down matter, destroy order and life, they are always regarded as equally important as the Æsir and Vanir because they are the catalysts for change; so the cycle can continue: creation-destruction-renewal. This is the inexorable process that can be observed in both History & Nature. There is no need for this kind of Dualism.

Yes I wholeheartedly agree. There is no need for this kind of dualism since it is a false conceptual framework when it comes to Heathenry.

[~°2012°~]

Anti-Cosmic Satanism is very hard for me to put into words, I reccomend you read up on what the Temple of the Black Light (Ex-Misanthropic Luciferian Order) says regarding the matter.

http://www.templeoftheblacklight.net/main.html

They really are a different sort of branch of Satanism, one that is, admittedly, very appealing to me.

Are you a Dissection fan?

[Hrafn]

I don't see absolutely nothing in Indo-European culture, tradition, belief and heritage and as well in Old Norse, Viking, pre-Christian Roman and Greek pantheon and even in African Orisha beliefs (later Christianized Santeria) what connects Old Gods with Black magic and Satanism. With that in mind Luciferianism is another thing and topic. For that we should threfore study Cathars, Bogomils, Patarens etc.
Essentially Satanism and Black magic, Devil worship are going hand in hand with Christianity as their opposition, as for example Jin and Jang. It is created by Judeo-Christianity and belongs with Judeo-Christianity.
You can see nowadays that therefore a lot of previous Satanists and other questionable characters who fused neonazi ideologies with satanism finally got to understand that this doesn't lead anywhere so they suddenly became Asatruars and some of them even very politically correct what is really funny in my opinion.

[Psychonaut]

http://www.templeoftheblacklight.net/main.html

http://mabusincarnate.8.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1892&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=4d59a27b1502b205055a0dc9c02925da

Neither page defines the term. What does this one word (not the system of thought behind it) mean?

[Baron Samedi]

Are you a Dissection fan?

Final album, yes. I'm not really into Storm of the Light's Bane or the Somberlain album.


Neither page defines the term. What does this one word (not the system of thought behind it) mean?

What do you want it to mean? Makes perfect sense to me.

Generally, the "benevolent" deities were the ones that defined the cosmos, gave order, etc.

Chaos is the opposite of this.

Hence the "anti-cosmic" or "chaos gnosticism" approach.

[Psychonaut]

What do you want it to mean?

I don't want it to mean anything. It's a neologism, and utilizing one without providing a specific definition leads confusion. I'm simply wondering if the word's creator provides his definition.


Generally, the "benevolent" deities were the ones that defined the cosmos, gave order, etc.

Chaos is the opposite of this.

So then, is anti-cosmic simply another way of saying anti-order, or is there something more to it?

[Baron Samedi]

I don't want it to mean anything. It's a neologism, and utilizing one without providing a specific definition leads confusion. I'm simply wondering if the word's creator provides his definition.



So then, is anti-cosmic simply another way of saying anti-order, or is there something more to it?

Depends on your views. I see it as the antithesis to your standard "moral" order brought on by the many benevolent pantheons.

Rebellion, in a sense.

It can be as far-reaching as you want, or earth-bound.

[Psychonaut]

Depends on your views. I see it as the antithesis to your standard "moral" order brought on by the many benevolent pantheons.

Rebellion, in a sense.

It can be as far-reaching as you want, or earth-bound.

So, is the term strictly ethical?

You speak of rebellion; is this rebellion towards a predefined end, or rebellion for the sake of rebellion?

[Baron Samedi]

So, is the term strictly ethical?

You speak of rebellion; is this rebellion towards a predefined end, or rebellion for the sake of rebellion?

The end is chaos, and the merging with such.

The pantheons that seek order with to keep those that yearn for such a "after death" from experience their own form of pleasure.

[Psychonaut]

The end is chaos, and the merging with such.

I understand entropy in cosmic terms, but what does this mean for you on a personal level? How do you apply an idea like this to your life?

[Baron Samedi]

I understand entropy in cosmic terms, but what does this mean for you on a personal level? How do you apply an idea like this to your life?

I don't know, I'm not an anti-cosmic Satanist.... I'm just interested in it.

[Psychonaut]

I don't know, I'm not an anti-cosmic Satanist.... I'm just interested in it.

It just seems like one of those things that looks "good" (if that's what you're interested in) on paper but doesn't really translate into anything more than rhetoric.

[Hrimskegg]

Ah, finding new ways to buck the system and doing it wrong. There's already a word for what this person espouses, it's called rokkrtru. Also, as far has my experience has been, they're basically just an over hyped Loki fan club. I've encountered such sayings as "Loki is just misunderstood," "Loki wouldn't hurt anybody," or "I'm married to Loki". In my mind, Loki has certainly done a good job in creating his personality cult here in Midgard, not much can be done about it, so there is no use complaining until the Ragnarok (at which time I will do my complaining with an axe).


I think we can thank Snorri for some of that thought though Dr. Who. Certainly reading the Prose Edda without any contextual background would lead anybody to deduce what you have just described. And I agree, it is sad. :)

Yes, I completely agree with that. If Snorri wasn't a Christian, I'd expect to find him in the afterlife and wring his neck.



I have a very dear Heathen friend who actually, not only acknowledges but most ardently includes the Jotnar in the greater complement of our pantheon. For him, the Jotnar are as important as the Aesir and Vanir and reflect the more raw elemental type of deity, for lack of a better term. He realises that he skirts with near heresy (:D) in most Heathen circles but his focus has nothing to do with "black magic" or satanic ritual or anti-cosmic whatever-that-was. He venerates the elemental powers portrayed by the Jotnar as the first order of deities, even more elemental than the Aesir. And when you think about it, it all works: Jotnar, Aesir and Vanir as overlays if you will of our history and spiritual path.
)

Good on him! This sounds like someone who would appreciate the academic work I'm doing (though hopefully its more than just him!).

In the defense of the Hrimthursar, in the myths they a portrayed as crafty, selfish and bearers of culture. It's hard to say why they keep being spoken of like they're hulking brutes bend on destroying creation when they bask in it. Who build the walls of Asgard? Did not Thrymr own a whole stable of horses and hunting dogs? Did not Skadi demand Weregild, instead of assaulting the Aesir? Again and again in the mythos the Hrimthursar are portrayed as worthy adversaries and later allies (if one actually considers Skadi's position among the Hrimthursar) of the Aesir.

[Baron Samedi]

It just seems like one of those things that looks "good" (if that's what you're interested in) on paper but doesn't really translate into anything more than rhetoric.

That's why it is essential to get your hands dirty in it.

Worked for me.