I will not sign Lisbon Treaty - Czech President

[Sol Invictus]

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6871365.ece

The President of the Czech Republic has no intention of signing the Lisbon treaty, a move that might allow David Cameron time to hold a British referendum on Europe.

President Klaus, the fiercely Eurosceptic Czech leader, is the last obstacle for the agreement after its ratification in the other 26 EU states but he has told supporters that he will never sign, The Times has learnt.

Asked during a walkabout on Sunday not to put his name to the treaty, Mr Klaus replied: “Don’t worry, I won’t.”

After a crisis Cabinet meeting yesterday, Jan Fischer, the Czech Prime Minister, avoided a direct confrontation with Mr Klaus, bowing to his demand to reopen negotiations with the EU on an eleventh-hour opt-out.

However, he called on the unpredictable President to guarantee his signature if EU leaders agreed to his conditions and if the Czech Constitutional Court raised no new objections.

Mr Klaus is demanding an opt-out for the Czech Republic that would prevent German families expelled after the Second World War from lodging property claims at the European Court of Justice.

He raised the stakes on Friday, putting a dampener on EU celebrations over the Irish referendum decision to back the treaty. The President argued that the charter could whip up an avalanche of property claims from German families expelled from Czech territory after the war.

Mr Fischer’s refusal to face down his President now throws the problem back at EU leaders at their summit in Brussels on October 29-30, when they had hoped to celebrate the completion of the treaty.

They had also hoped to appoint the EU president and foreign minister, roles created by the treaty, but will now have to be content with a discussion about candidates, including Tony Blair.

The treaty has been passed by both Houses of the Czech parliament but the Prime Minister, acting in a caretaker role after the collapse of Mirek Topolanek’s Government in May, ruled out any attempt to bypass the President.

“I would not like to talk about constitutional crisis,” Mr Fischer told The Times. “The Government is in a position to negotiate the extra conditions revealed by our head of state. We are ready to go to the European Council to put it on the table.”

Hinting at a breakdown in relations between himself and President Klaus, he added: “The Government would like to have clear and sound guarantees from the side of the head of state that this is actually the last step from his side and no other additional conditions will be added.”

Mr Fischer, who will be in Brussels for talks today, said he hoped that the treaty could still be concluded by the end of the year. The lack of agreement from Mr Klaus will infuriate other EU members, particularly France and Germany, which are pushing hard to wrap up the Lisbon treaty saga.

[Loddfafner]

So I take it you oppose the rights of Germans to reverse the ethnic cleansing of Sudetenland?

[Sol Invictus]

So I take it you oppose the rights of Germans to reverse the ethnic cleansing of Sudetenland?

What do you mean?

[Electronic God-Man]

What do you mean?

Although it sounds good that Klaus won't sign...he's only doing it so that Germans (ie Sudetenland Germans) don't make property claims in the Sudetenland from which they were forcibly expelled after WWII. Apparently signing the Lisbon Treaty would allow for them to do so. Klaus sounds like he will go right ahead and sign it as long as the EU includes a clause saying that this can't happen.

[Loddfafner]

Isn't the Sudetenland issue Klaus' primary concern? The Czechs expelled and killed large numbers of Germans who lived in Bohemia. The survivors and their descendants might like to get their homes, towns, and farms back. This threat to the Czech squatters is a touchy issue. A stronger European Community might provide a legal framework for restitution. Cesky Budejovice might once again become Budweis.

[Sol Invictus]

Although it sounds good that Klaus won't sign...he's only doing it so that Germans (ie Sudetenland Germans) don't make property claims in the Sudetenland from which they were forcibly expelled after WWII. Apparently signing the Lisbon Treaty would allow for them to do so. Klaus sounds like he will go right ahead and sign it as long as the EU includes a clause saying that this can't happen.

Well I would have to claim ignorance on the whole Sudetenland expulsion business because really it doesn't have anything to do with me. But the expansion of the EU and it's goals certainly does, because it will have a direct impact on us here at home in the long run, and the rest of the world. As far as Klaus and his willingness to sign it except on those terms, I don't blame him really. I don't support Quebec separation at all, for example, because it's territories were ceded to British rule, and ultimately Canadian rule, and it should stay that way..

[Loddfafner]

What is wrong with a Europe strong enough to balance the US in world affairs?

[Sol Invictus]

Isn't the Sudetenland issue Klaus' primary concern?

Perhaps, Lodd. But doing this sort of thing through the program of the EU is not the way to do it.

[Sol Invictus]

What is wrong with a Europe strong enough to balance the US in world affairs?

Because it's not about balance. It's about consolidation and centralization of power on multiple facets at the expense of national borders and local rights and independence. This is not what Europeans signed on for.

[Electronic God-Man]

Klaus will sign. He's not opposing the EU. He just doesn't want to deal with pissed off Germans that were expelled by Slavs. His opposition to signing has little to do with opposition to the EU.

[Osweo]

Although it sounds good that Klaus won't sign...he's only doing it so that Germans (ie Sudetenland Germans) don't make property claims in the Sudetenland from which they were forcibly expelled after WWII. Apparently signing the Lisbon Treaty would allow for them to do so. Klaus sounds like he will go right ahead and sign it as long as the EU includes a clause saying that this can't happen.

A Nation in the imperfect but unavoidable person of its State has a desire to do action X on its own territory. Certain interests have entangled the State in international arrangements that threaten this action X. THat is loss of sovereignty. Who cares what it's about? It's the principle at stake here, and it seems that it all boils down to the will of individuals in particular positions at the end of the day as to whether we slip into the abyss or not. THeir particular motives are less important than the wider ramifications.

[Sol Invictus]

Klaus will sign..

We shall see.

[Electronic God-Man]

A Nation in the imperfect but unavoidable person of its State has a desire to do action X on its own territory. Certain interests have entangled the State in international arrangements that threaten this action X. THat is loss of sovereignty. Who cares what it's about? It's the principle at stake here, and it seems that it all boils down to the will of individuals in particular positions at the end of the day as to whether we slip into the abyss or not. THeir particular motives are less important than the wider ramifications.

I understand. But I bet the EU makes a deal with the Czechs and then Klaus signs. He's not even asking for that much really.

[Poltergeist]

Although it sounds good that Klaus won't sign...he's only doing it so that Germans (ie Sudetenland Germans) don't make property claims in the Sudetenland from which they were forcibly expelled after WWII. Apparently signing the Lisbon Treaty would allow for them to do so. Klaus sounds like he will go right ahead and sign it as long as the EU includes a clause saying that this can't happen.

Why do you think that? You are just insinuating too much. How about simply wanting to preserve his country's independence from the EU Leviathan as his only motivation behind the refusal to sign the Lisbon Treaty?


Isn't the Sudetenland issue Klaus' primary concern? The Czechs expelled and killed large numbers of Germans who lived in Bohemia. The survivors and their descendants might like to get their homes, towns, and farms back. This threat to the Czech squatters is a touchy issue. A stronger European Community might provide a legal framework for restitution. Cesky Budejovice might once again become Budweis.

Science fiction. Where did you infer such ideas from?

How on earth did you come to the conclusion that Sudetenland would be Klaus' primary concern? Any concrete indications for that?


What is wrong with a Europe strong enough to balance the US in world affairs?

What isn't? Europe caused two world wars.

[Freomæg]

What is wrong with a Europe strong enough to balance the US in world affairs?
What's wrong? What's right about a bunch of sovereign nations being forced to merge? The EU might just about be acceptable if every single nation involved had been given a vote on it and all had agreed, democratically.

[Treffie]

Asked during a walkabout on Sunday not to put his name to the treaty, Mr Klaus replied: “Don’t worry, I won’t.”

Please don't :(

[Puddle of Mudd]

The EU might just about be acceptable if every single nation involved had been given a vote on it and all had agreed, democratically.

Yeah, but that would require giving a shit about what the people think. And I'm pretty sure the EU isn't going to let crazy ideas of "democracy" get in the way of its ultimate goal.

[Electronic God-Man]

Why do you think that? You are just insinuating too much. How about simply wanting to preserve his country's independence from the EU Leviathan as his only motivation behind the refusal to sign the Lisbon Treaty?


Science fiction. Where did you infer such ideas from?

How on earth did you come to the conclusion that Sudetenland would be Klaus' primary concern? Any concrete indications for that?



Mr Klaus is demanding an opt-out for the Czech Republic that would prevent German families expelled after the Second World War from lodging property claims at the European Court of Justice.

...

He raised the stakes on Friday, putting a dampener on EU celebrations over the Irish referendum decision to back the treaty. The President argued that the charter could whip up an avalanche of property claims from German families expelled from Czech territory after the war.

I don't know where you've been, Saparmurat.

[Sol Invictus]

I don't know where you've been, Saparmurat.

But to say that's the single most driving force behind him not signing the lisbon treaty is rather narrow minded? Could it have crossed your mind that this man loves his country and wants to keep it the way it is? To grow and develop outside of the monster magnet that is the European Union?

[Lysander]

Klaus sounds awfully German to me though...

[Loddfafner]

For the Euroskeptics, do you object to the original concept of defusing intra-European nationalist conflicts such as that between France and Germany through economic integration starting with the old Coal and Steel arrangement? Is the problem that this process has gone too far, or that it has happened at all?

[Sol Invictus]

For the Euroskeptics, do you object to the original concept of defusing intra-European nationalist conflicts such as that between France and Germany through economic integration starting with the old Coal and Steel arrangement? Is the problem that this process has gone too far, or that it has happened at all?

No. But I object to a totalitarian program using the guise of 'peace and prosperity' to centralize and consolidate power. It started out as an economic partnership, and the next thing you know you have a universal court and law system and constitution that completely undermines the native constitutions and completely disregards the Oaths that were sworn to defend them. That kind of incrimentalism is now what we're experiencing oin our own countries in North America.

Now you have open borders, giving free reign to foreingers to enter into your workforce, your country and gives rise to the great possibility for foreign illegal immigration through it's lax or non-existant border enforcement. I'll leave it to Europeans themselves to describe how they feel about 'burying the hatchet'. My personal opinion is that the EU isn't the way to do it.

Ask brits how they feel about the tossing of their Magna Carta and their sworn oaths to Her Majesty the Queen.

[Poltergeist]

I don't know where you've been, Saparmurat.

Sorry, Soten, I didn't read the whole article. I was commenting on his general stance towards European Union in the last years, which probably wasn't driven by fear of returning Germans only. Yes, he does mention it here. But I still view him in positive light because of the job he is doing in slowing down the process of creation of the unified supra-state. Even if his attempts are desperate and soon will be neutralized, I still think they are worthwhile. Whatever his real motivations may be. On the other hand, I simply can't believe his entire loudly voiced anti-EU stance of the last years was driven by these motivations only.


For the Euroskeptics, do you object to the original concept of defusing intra-European nationalist conflicts such as that between France and Germany through economic integration starting with the old Coal and Steel arrangement? Is the problem that this process has gone too far, or that it has happened at all?

Rather the former. Europe as an economic zone maybe isn't such a bad idea, European superstate certainly is. Free trade and cooperation can happen without this beaurocratic monster as well.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Europe as an economic zone maybe isn't such a bad idea, European superstate certainly is. Free trade and cooperation can happen without this beaurocratic monster as well.

Yes, it is a bad idea, and so is free trade.

[Osweo]

But to say that's the single most driving force behind him not signing the lisbon treaty is rather narrow minded? Could it have crossed your mind that this man loves his country and wants to keep it the way it is? To grow and develop outside of the monster magnet that is the European Union?
Maybe he's doing it from the best sort of intentions (and to a Czech, a nation humiliated by that idiot Hitler, keeping old German property IS a moral act) viz sovereignty, and hasn't succumbed to bribery and pressure due to his age. He is 'getting on' a bit, isn't he? Maybe he just wants to shove this in the faces of all the other bastards in politics before he kicks the bucket, as well as do the best for his country.

[Loddfafner]

I checked (sorry) with a Czech contact. He played down the Sudeten angle but relayed some interesting rumors that Klaus is either an American agent, a Russian agent, or both. It does not matter which, as both powers are threatened by the possibility of a strengthened, unified EU.

[Sol Invictus]

I checked (sorry) with a Czech contact. He played down the Sudeten angle but relayed some interesting rumors that Klaus is either an American agent, a Russian agent, or both. It does not matter which, as both powers are threatened by the possibility of a strengthened, unified EU.

Well if he is an American agent then he's obviously not your every-day run-of-the-mill New World Order agent. I say good for him because he's obviously doing a good job! Do you have any sources to back this or is this word of mouth.

[Poltergeist]

Yes, it is a bad idea, and so is free trade.

If it is some loose frame of cooperation, coercion being imposed on any country to practice "free trade" according to the commnds of some faceless beaurocrats (which then doesn't make it free at all), then I don't see what would be so inherently bad about it.


I checked (sorry) with a Czech contact. He played down the Sudeten angle but relayed some interesting rumors that Klaus is either an American agent, a Russian agent, or both. It does not matter which, as both powers are threatened by the possibility of a strengthened, unified EU.

That's what crossed my mind as well yesterday, when I was pondering it. That the Sudeten issue might be one more point by which he further strengthens his already existing anti-EU stance and not the other way around.

As for America or Russia, or even both of these powers working conjointly, eventually having their finger in the pie, so what? Maybe once these countries do some good for this continent, although involuntarily.

[Monolith]

For the Euroskeptics, do you object to the original concept of defusing intra-European nationalist conflicts such as that between France and Germany through economic integration starting with the old Coal and Steel arrangement? Is the problem that this process has gone too far, or that it has happened at all?
I agree with the Turk, it's more like the latter. However, this 'Euroskeptic' label is an interesting one, as it is applied to people who are not only skeptical but also outright inimical towards the EU. It's a neat trick of the mainstream media.

...and so is free trade.
Care to expand on that?

[Poltergeist]

I agree with the Turk, it's more like the latter. However, this 'Euroskeptic' label is an interesting one, as it is applied to people who are not only skeptical but also outright inimical towards the EU. It's a neat trick of the mainstream media.

"Euroskeptic" is a terrible misnomer, when applied to people opposing EU. I am simply anti-EU, not Euroskeptic. Euroskepticism is a moderate poltical view, integrated into the poltically correct mainstream of the EU, which consists of critcizing some some aspects of the EU politics.

[Sol Invictus]

"Euroskeptic" is a terrible misnomer, when applied to people opposing EU.

Hehe.. See a trend? Oh the names people throw around.

[Anthropos]

Good video. There were two reasonable people speaking, and someone babbling a whole lot about some allegedly very important "symbols of Europe". :confused: