Crazy Archaeology files: did cannibal migrationss end all the ancient civilizations in the Americas?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Mainly I have not cared about north american ancient DNA because I didn't expect to find much interesting, also the laws in the US make it very difficult for anyone to exhume any remains as local natives have absolute veto power. This is in spite of fact that most of the north american natives are not in their original locations and many of them are actually relative newcomers to north america as far as we can tell. But I was looking at some bog bodies and learned there were 168 bodies exhumed from a bog in florida which had had full dna sequencing performed on them. Search and search, though, and you can't find the results. No haplogroups, no autosomal values, nothing.

But I did come across this:

http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=119918

This says all the haplogroups were european! Also (which I already knew) many of the old native american skulls look completely caucasion and for some tribes, completely black african as well. It also goes over the cannibalization and genocide of the anasazi people by the ancient navajo. This I already knew about, too, but only becomes interesting when I realized (from watching too much Ancient Aliens) all of the civilizations in the americas got wiped out around the same time, in a north to south pattern. It went from advanced societies that had indepth astronomical knowledge that was not rediscovered until the 1800s to stone age cannibals all through South and Central America.

Unfortunately like I said you can't even get access to the skulls let alone DNA test them but when you add all this together, it gave me the most creepy sense of dread I can remember. What do you guys think?

[Staccato]

I'd like to look into this more, but as you say with what is essentially a veto, along with the sensitivity of the subject, any suggestion of pre American-Indians/Pre-Clovis people in North America is shot down.

The Kennewick man caused enough controversy and when it was revealed he was more likely of Polynesian descent, not European, there was almost a collective sigh of relief, as it seems any theory challenging this subject is controversial, but if they're European? Well, that can't be. Of course, the thing is that isn't the whole story, as he was supposedly related to the Ainu this leads into another debate:

"The prehistoric Jomon and the Ainu of Japan are actually closer to the prehistoric and living European groups than to the core populations of continental Asia. The Polynesians of Oceania are close to being in between the European and Asian ends of the spectrum. Along with the Ainu and the Jomon, they could be described as Eurasian."

"The fact that Late Pleistocene populations in northwest Europe and northeast Asia show morphological similarities suggests that there may have been actual genetic ties at one time. Those morphological similarities can still be shown between Europe and the descendants of the aboriginal population of the Japanese archipelago, i.e., the Ainu. This similarity provides some basis for the long-time claim that the Ainu represent an ‘‘Indo-European,’’ ‘‘Aryan,’’ or ‘‘Caucasoid’’ ‘‘type’’ or ‘‘race’’, however unfortunate those designations and their implications may be.
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/17/10017.full.pdf

The Solutrean hypothesis is still viable, although they certainly existed there just isn't skeletal DNA of the Solutreans, so the theory rests on the fact that Solutrean tools were found all the way in the Americas, any remains of them or of boats are unfortunately considered to be lost at sea during rising/lower sea levels, it has gained more supporters, or at least sympathisers, but again, with the added pressure on the subject it's likely to remain a suppressed theory for sometime.

After all that, strangely enough the Florida Bog mummies are something I haven't looked much into yet. :/

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The Solutrean hypothesis, so far as I am concerned, is proven.

Aside from the bog bodies, we have another study that shows all the native americans in the NE have European R Y-DNA haplogroups and some have european X mtDNA.

This is also significant because it disproves the recent trendy BS about r1b being a newcomer to western europe.

It looks to me though that the north american cannibals came from mexico, which was a horribly ultraviolent cannibalistic society, in the midst of their collapse. So it is probably not the navajo and hopi who were the cannibals as the guy in the post I linked to believed. But, that has to be what happened to all those people further south, all those civilizations collapsing around the same time. Something weird and rather sudden definitely happened, anyway, and not that long before the spanish came to town.

It's funny to me people get worked up about this, that they worry over the finds not being in line with the orthodoxy. I guess that shows for most people archaeology is more about politics than anything. But if they find some ancient african or norwegian remains under my house, I'm still not moving out.

[Jackson]

The Solutrean hypothesis, so far as I am concerned, is proven.

Aside from the bog bodies, we have another study that shows all the native americans in the NE have European R Y-DNA haplogroups and some have european X mtDNA.

This is also significant because it disproves the recent trendy BS about r1b being a newcomer to western europe.

It looks to me though that the north american cannibals came from mexico, which was a horribly ultraviolent cannibalistic society, in the midst of their collapse. So it is probably not the navajo and hopi who were the cannibals as the guy in the post I linked to believed. But, that has to be what happened to all those people further south, all those civilizations collapsing around the same time. Something weird and rather sudden definitely happened, anyway, and not that long before the spanish came to town.

It's funny to me people get worked up about this, that they worry over the finds not being in line with the orthodoxy. I guess that shows for most people archaeology is more about politics than anything. But if they find some ancient african or norwegian remains under my house, I'm still not moving out.

Well the dating of all the modern R1b in western Europe does not allow it to be in Europe until the post-glacial period at the earliest, it is simply an impossibility based on the most up to date knowledge of genetics. Technically it is possible that there was R1b here before that, but if that is the case then none if these lineages survive in these places now.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Well the dating of all the modern R1b in western Europe does not allow it to be in Europe until the post-glacial period at the earliest, it is simply an impossibility based on the most up to date knowledge of genetics. Technically it is possible that there was R1b here before that, but if that is the case then none if these lineages survive in these places now.

It's just people who don't have any idea what they are talking about or who have a big agenda making this crap up (mainly greeks and nordicists who want to paint neolithic west europe scandinavian). Only a buffoon expects to find r1b among neolithic farmers. There's only been 4 european neolithic studies total so far and none of them were ones we'd expect to find r1b, now suddenly people take that to means r1b just came to europe. So far the bell beaker was r1b, we just don't have any southern bell beaker bones to test but they will probably turn out the same.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/09/ancient-genomes-mirror-mode-of.html

Here's a study formalizing the idea and showing why it's silly to make these wild conjectures off of a couple data items.

[Jackson]

It's just people who don't have any idea what they are talking about or who have a big agenda making this crap up (mainly greeks and nordicists who want to paint neolithic west europe scandinavian). Only a buffoon expects to find r1b among neolithic farmers. There's only been 4 european neolithic studies total so far and none of them were ones we'd expect to find r1b, now suddenly people take that to means r1b just came to europe. So far the bell beaker was r1b, we just don't have any southern bell beaker bones to test but they will probably turn out the same.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/09/ancient-genomes-mirror-mode-of.html

Here's a study formalizing the idea and showing why it's silly to make these wild conjectures off of a couple data items.

Perhaps you did not understand what i meant - The rough dates for the development of certain sub-groups within Y-DNA have been established for R1b, and these dates do not allow for the ancestors of the modern R1b in western Europe to have been in that area prior to the LGM. In addition to that the fact that R1b groups that originated earlier than the ones in western Europe are almost exclusively found far to the east of western Europe.

So to find an analogy - It would be a bit like getting a radiocarbon date of an object that puts it at around 1000 AD lets say for example (of course there is a margin of error, but not massive), this means that it died at any time after this date theoretically. It is therefore conclusive that this object could not have been active in 500 AD, or 1AD or 2000BC, unless it had an extraordinarily long lifespan of course. But basically dating shows that the ancestors of modern western European R1b did not leave any surviving lineages in western Europe from prior to the LGM. In my opinion it's possible that R1b came later than the Neolithic, or that it was a minority group that came in the Neolithic and later underwent massive expansion. This could happen for example as it has happened in Ireland - The elite (predominantly R1b) have many sons that gradually filter into the main society over centuries. In terms of the overall genetics in Ireland for example, R1b is massively over-represented.

To put it in perspective, that argument was believable some years ago when not much was known about R1b, but now much more is known, and the vast majority of the academic community has moved, or is moving, with it. At the very least we can say that if R1b was typical of pre-neolithic hunter gatherers in western Europe, none of those R1b lines of descent survive today in western Europe.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Perhaps you did not understand what i meant - The rough dates for the development of certain sub-groups within Y-DNA have been established for R1b, and these dates do not allow for the ancestors of the modern R1b in western Europe to have been in that area prior to the LGM. In addition to that the fact that R1b groups that originated earlier than the ones in western Europe are almost exclusively found far to the east of western Europe.

So to find an analogy - It would be a bit like getting a radiocarbon date of an object that puts it at around 1000 AD lets say for example (of course there is a margin of error, but not massive), this means that it died at any time after this date theoretically. It is therefore conclusive that this object could not have been active in 500 AD, or 1AD or 2000BC, unless it had an extraordinarily long lifespan of course. But basically dating shows that the ancestors of modern western European R1b did not leave any surviving lineages in western Europe from prior to the LGM. In my opinion it's possible that R1b came later than the Neolithic, or that it was a minority group that came in the Neolithic and later underwent massive expansion. This could happen for example as it has happened in Ireland - The elite (predominantly R1b) have many sons that gradually filter into the main society over centuries. In terms of the overall genetics in Ireland for example, R1b is massively over-represented.

To put it in perspective, that argument was believable some years ago when not much was known about R1b, but now much more is known, and the vast majority of the academic community has moved, or is moving, with it. At the very least we can say that if R1b was typical of pre-neolithic hunter gatherers in western Europe, none of those R1b lines of descent survive today in western Europe.
The time between least common ancestors doesn't really mean anything, even if they are true (and so far they have changed many times).

The solutreans would probably have been unifferentiated R at that point, which seems to be what crossed over the atlantic to eastern seaboard (there's been archaeological evidence of this forever but DNA only recently). In the west it evolved into r1b, in the east, r1a, with I in between at refugium in greece.

Lately people are saying that r1b migrated to west europe about 3000-3300 years ago which is just not possible (and consequently spain and france and german would have all been I clade as well as greece during glacial times).

Going back beyond the ice age is highly speculative. Nobody can say for sure what happened, and logic says that every time an ice age comes or goes that the Y haplogroups would wildly change (even if the autosomals stay mainly the same).

[Jackson]

The time between least common ancestors doesn't really mean anything, even if they are true (and so far they have changed many times).

The solutreans would probably have been unifferentiated R at that point, which seems to be what crossed over the atlantic to eastern seaboard (there's been archaeological evidence of this forever but DNA only recently). In the west it evolved into r1b, in the east, r1a, with I in between at refugium in greece.

Lately people are saying that r1b migrated to west europe about 3000-3300 years ago which is just not possible (and consequently spain and france and german would have all been I clade as well as greece during glacial times).

Going back beyond the ice age is highly speculative. Nobody can say for sure what happened, and logic says that every time an ice age comes or goes that the Y haplogroups would wildly change (even if the autosomals stay mainly the same).

That is the main point i'm making, although more specifically regarding R1b. I think 3000-3300 years ago is also too late, although i can't prove it. I would have thought 3000-3300 BC (5000-5300 ish) years ago is a pretty reasonable guess though.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

That is the main point i'm making, although more specifically regarding R1b. I think 3000-3300 years ago is also too late, although i can't prove it. I would have thought 3000-3300 BC (5000-5300 ish) years ago is a pretty reasonable guess though.

The TMRCA is something like 18k years. Bronze age collapse was what caused east to west migrations. We also can look at what haplogroups who did migrate at that time look like on the maps. Long story short, this didn't happen.

The neolithic farmers were the newcomers not the original inhabitants of europe. So far all we sampled was the farmers, in the south. For nomads and people who use pyre burials it's almost impossible to find remains, but that pretty much has to be what they find either in iberia or north africa.

[Smeagol]

Interesting.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Surprised no one has cited some of the factoids from the wikipedia article on the Windover site:


The Windover Archaeological Site is an Early Archaic (6000 to 5000 BC) archaeological site found in Brevard County near Titusville, Florida, USA, on the central east coast of the state. Windover is a muck pond where skeletal remains of 168 individuals were found buried in the peat at the bottom of the pond. The skeletons were well preserved because of the characteristics of peat. In addition, remarkably well-preserved brain tissue has been recovered from many skulls from the site. DNA from the brain tissue has been sequenced. The collection of human skeletal remains and artifacts recovered from Windover Pond represent among the largest finds of each type from the Archaic Period.

more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windover_Archaeological_Site#cite_note-15)

[Neanderthal]

The Solutrean hypothesis, so far as I am concerned, is proven.

Aside from the bog bodies, we have another study that shows all the native americans in the NE have European R Y-DNA haplogroups and some have european X mtDNA.

This is also significant because it disproves the recent trendy BS about r1b being a newcomer to western europe.

It looks to me though that the north american cannibals came from mexico, which was a horribly ultraviolent cannibalistic society, in the midst of their collapse. So it is probably not the navajo and hopi who were the cannibals as the guy in the post I linked to believed. But, that has to be what happened to all those people further south, all those civilizations collapsing around the same time. Something weird and rather sudden definitely happened, anyway, and not that long before the spanish came to town.

It's funny to me people get worked up about this, that they worry over the finds not being in line with the orthodoxy. I guess that shows for most people archaeology is more about politics than anything. But if they find some ancient african or norwegian remains under my house, I'm still not moving out.

There are theories of Anasazi origins of the Aztec elite. What do you think about this?

I personally believe some of this stuff. I mean, Eurasia had 3 human races isolated and whole america just one? bullshit.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

There are theories of Anasazi origins of the Aztec elite. What do you think about this?

I personally believe some of this stuff. I mean, Eurasia had 3 human races isolated and whole america just one?

Looking more carefully at the timeframes seems like the other way around. The aztecs fled the chaos and had some extended bbqs of the north american natives.



bullshit.

Yeah, considering the massive wipeouts all around the same time...looks like in the americas some version of ghenghis khan managed to take down everyone. Which could have happened in eurasia and africa if not for the terrain.

You can't underestimate the ravages of disease, though, either. And the more ancient the DNA the less immunity they'd have to asian and european diseases. Probably a one two punch in some cases - mostly wiped out by cannibals and chaos, finished off by old world disease.

[Tatar]

Mainly I have not cared about north american ancient DNA because I didn't expect to find much interesting, also the laws in the US make it very difficult for anyone to exhume any remains as local natives have absolute veto power. This is in spite of fact that most of the north american natives are not in their original locations and many of them are actually relative newcomers to north america as far as we can tell. But I was looking at some bog bodies and learned there were 168 bodies exhumed from a bog in florida which had had full dna sequencing performed on them. Search and search, though, and you can't find the results. No haplogroups, no autosomal values, nothing.

But I did come across this:

http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=119918

This says all the haplogroups were european! Also (which I already knew) many of the old native american skulls look completely caucasion and for some tribes, completely black african as well. It also goes over the cannibalization and genocide of the anasazi people by the ancient navajo. This I already knew about, too, but only becomes interesting when I realized (from watching too much Ancient Aliens) all of the civilizations in the americas got wiped out around the same time, in a north to south pattern. It went from advanced societies that had indepth astronomical knowledge that was not rediscovered until the 1800s to stone age cannibals all through South and Central America.

Unfortunately like I said you can't even get access to the skulls let alone DNA test them but when you add all this together, it gave me the most creepy sense of dread I can remember. What do you guys think?

The Solutrean hypotesis is COMPLETELY disproved by recent genetic analysis of ancient DNA on 10 000 years old remain found in Alaska. It was positive to haplogroup Q1a an altaic haplogroup. I don't have the source now and I will search latter but it means that at least in the northern part of northern America, first inhabitants were americanoid altaic like ket, selkup... probably ancestor or today's eskimo

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The Solutrean hypotesis is COMPLETELY disproved by recent genetic analysis of ancient DNA on 10 000 years old remain found in Alaska. It was positive to haplogroup Q1a an altaic haplogroup. I don't have the source now and I will search latter but it means that at least in the northern part of northern America, first inhabitants were americanoid altaic like ket, selkup... probably ancestor or today's eskimo

Complete BS, you can just read the fucking thread to find that's not true, try to read before you say stupid shit and give thumbs down. Solutrean came across ATLANTIC, obviously, and there's no other explanation for R y-dna on east coast.

We also have archaeological remains 50k+ years old in the americas. There's also a million other things that make it obvious clovis first is BS, and it would have to be 100% true for the stupid alaskan findings to mean anything.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

bump

[Kale]

Cool videos. I like the part where he says he's looking for haplogroups, says they "look European", then doesn't tell us anything more.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Cool videos. I like the part where he says he's looking for haplogroups, says they "look European", then doesn't tell us anything more.

This was the 80s, dumbass. They could not read whole mtdna sequences, they could only run specific tests. Lots of dna tests today work the same. you don't know the haplogroup for certain, but you know if it's got important markers that tell if it's some child of H or U, H, or V.

Like I said, know wtf you are talking about before you comment on things. You can read details in the paper, sorry it's not online. Again, it was the 80s.

[Kale]

I'd love to see it, do you have a link?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I'd like to look into this more, but as you say with what is essentially a veto, along with the sensitivity of the subject, any suggestion of pre American-Indians/Pre-Clovis people in North America is shot down.

The Kennewick man caused enough controversy and when it was revealed he was more likely of Polynesian descent, not European, there was almost a collective sigh of relief, as it seems any theory challenging this subject is controversial, but if they're European? Well, that can't be. Of course, the thing is that isn't the whole story, as he was supposedly related to the Ainu this leads into another debate:

"The prehistoric Jomon and the Ainu of Japan are actually closer to the prehistoric and living European groups than to the core populations of continental Asia. The Polynesians of Oceania are close to being in between the European and Asian ends of the spectrum. Along with the Ainu and the Jomon, they could be described as Eurasian."

"The fact that Late Pleistocene populations in northwest Europe and northeast Asia show morphological similarities suggests that there may have been actual genetic ties at one time. Those morphological similarities can still be shown between Europe and the descendants of the aboriginal population of the Japanese archipelago, i.e., the Ainu. This similarity provides some basis for the long-time claim that the Ainu represent an ‘‘Indo-European,’’ ‘‘Aryan,’’ or ‘‘Caucasoid’’ ‘‘type’’ or ‘‘race’’, however unfortunate those designations and their implications may be.
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/17/10017.full.pdf

The Solutrean hypothesis is still viable, although they certainly existed there just isn't skeletal DNA of the Solutreans, so the theory rests on the fact that Solutrean tools were found all the way in the Americas, any remains of them or of boats are unfortunately considered to be lost at sea during rising/lower sea levels, it has gained more supporters, or at least sympathisers, but again, with the added pressure on the subject it's likely to remain a suppressed theory for sometime.

After all that, strangely enough the Florida Bog mummies are something I haven't looked much into yet. :/

If you look at my other thread, you'll see they now have several solutrean sites (originating in europe) found on the east coast, and some in the ocean. So it's pretty much wrapped up now.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I'd love to see it, do you have a link?

Wow, you are one stupid fuck. Papers written in the 80s and 90s are not online, as I said right in the post you are replying to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windover_Archaeological_Site#cite_note-15

However here is a citation of the paper, two posts above. There's other citations including books, and several uncited books and papers. Holy shit, you people are fucking retards.

[Kale]

They are online if they are good enough. If it's that revolutionary SOMEONE will take the time to put it up.