Sicilian phenotypes BY REGION.. my comprehensive guide to the island and its types!

[Sikeliot]

Since some members here insist on clinging to archaic texts that have outlived their purpose and insist on speaking on behalf of my own people, I am going to make a detailed thread that literally walks through each province of the island one by one and breaks down what all of my experience proves to be the predominant type in each, with a separate post for genetic data to support it.

Just so everyone knows what is where:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Provinces_of_Sicily_map.png

With the latest genetic data:


WEST SICILIAN (Palermo, Trapani):

North European: 9.76%
Caucasus-Near Eastern: 33.02%
North African: 3.29%
Gedrosia-Caucasian: 10.98%
Southwest European: 26.36%
Arabic: 8.58%
Cushitic: 1.63%


CENTER SICILIAN (Enna, Caltanissetta):

North European: 7.35%
Caucasus-Near Eastern: 35.39%
North African: 2.90%
Caucasus-Gedrosia: 9.39%
Southwest European: 25.37%
Arabic: 6.73%
Cushitic: 3.56%


SOUTH SICILIAN (Coastal Agrigento, Caltanissetta, and Ragusa):

North European: 8.67%
Caucasus-Near Eastern: 34.80%
North African: 3.03%
Caucasus-Gedrosia: 10.83%
Southwest European: 27.20%
Arabic: 8.01%
Cushitic: 2.84%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndHo5TnJZR2VFYW1lcExMNGUyWTVhe VE#gid=0

[Sikeliot]

MESSINA, CATANIA, and SYRACUSE:

Messina was first settled by an Italic group, the Sikels, from whom the Greeks gave the island it's name, Sikelia. The Sikels did not have any large-scale towns in the area when the Greeks settled, and most of the large towns to develop in Messina had been Greek from the start. Settled by Greeks from Euboea immediately upon their landing, and named after Messinia in the Peloponnese, most people in Messina display the phenotypes one would associate with the ancient Greeks, modified, at times, by an Italic influence that can also be seen on the Italian mainland. The Romans conquered and renamed the area Messana, but never settled en masse.

Catania, on the other hand, was home to a large Sikel settlement at the base of Mt. Etna, which, upon the Greek settlement, would develop into a town by the name of Katáne, later Catina by the Romans. With the majority of Greek settlement coming from Chalcis, and coming in contact with an Italic population, most of the population displays a similar appearance to that of Messina, strongly "Greco-Roman" and displaying similarities to both the southern and islander Greeks and to Italians from the mainland. However, Italic influence is likely much smaller due to the fact that Dionysius I, tyrant of Syracuse who overtook Catania, drove out all of the remaining Sikels and repopulated the area with Ionian Greeks.

Syracuse, the "greatest Greek city and the most beautiful of them all" according to Cicero, was settled by Corinthian and Tenean Greeks. To a much greater extent than in Messina and Catania, the Greeks drove the Sikels inland toward what is now Enna, and repopulated the area with Dorian Greeks from the southern Peloponnese. In contrast to her Ionian neighbors to the north, Syracuse was allied with Sparta, a fact that would become historically significant later. Syracuse is very likely the most "Greek" of all Sicily's provinces, due to these historical facts.

These three provinces were the last to be conquered by the Moors, and saw the least Norman influence, and therefore can be grouped together as one unit.

The predominant type is various Dinaro-Alpine-East Med combinations that can also be found amongst Aegean Greeks, but may show Italic/continental Italian contribution.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7142/6816236225_623b474a0b_m.jpghttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7004/6816232497_c93909ba19_m.jpghttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/6816235871_65a9851dec_m.jpghttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7003/6816236097_0ef3312e13_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8388/8467254934_b1e14fef25_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3563/3559220349_71b7feefe1_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3623/3560031886_8092e67eb8_m.jpg

Dinaro-Med "Italian" types:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3249/3560033490_4413f7bb6d_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3401/3560033060_e4e0f6c4aa_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3586/3560032428_8e9d26ba48_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3351/3559220695_fd61ef1455_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3381/3559220457_951c814ea3_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8466159937_29d8792286_m.jpg


And a likely older, Neolithic-type Armenoid-Med look that is more prevalent amongst Jews and Levantines:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6816233411_debf9b7c86_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2443/3974713505_da1917d325_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8097/8467256054_41c8c15a46_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3446/3975480030_d6f99b684c_m.jpghttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7144/6816235323_f7661d3d4b_m.jpghttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6816235193_95b15ebc02_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3445/3974713995_c1fcd1c6dd_m.jpg


Overlapping groups: Southern and islander Greeks, mainland southern Italians, western Turks, and Cypriots.

[Sikeliot]

PALERMO and TRAPANI.

Palermo deserves its own section due to the variety of phenotypes, historical settlement diversity, and being the most populous part of the island. But I will include Trapani due to similar historical circumstances and that they neighbor.

The first historical settlement was by the Elymians, a group of unknown origin who are presumably from Anatolia. Genetic data would support this given the relatively high frequency of Caucasus-type haplogroup G on the paternal side in western Sicily. The Elymians founded Eryx (Erice), Segesta, and Entella, all of which would be later Hellenized.

Next came the Phoenicians from Lebanon, who founded the city of Palermo. They controlled the trade on the northwestern coast of the island, which would later be passed to their successors, the Carthaginians. The Phoenicians maintained good relations with the Elymians, while the Greeks did not due to their desire to expand across the entire island.

Moorish influence in the Middle Ages brought Muslims from North Africa and Syria as well as their culture to the western half of the island, and although they would later conquer all but Syracuse, their primary area of influence was in Palermo. Although most Moors were expelled, those who remained did assimilate and there is an approximately 6% influence on the paternal side of the gene pool from the Arabian Peninsula (J1) and NW Africa (North African E1b1b).

Normans conquered next, forcing out Muslims who refused to assimilate, and settling primarily in Palermo and northern Trapani. They repopulated several towns with people from Northern Italy as well as Calabria and Campania.

All of these groups, as well as the Greeks who settled, would have a genetic impact as well as phenotypical.


Common types include Levantine-influenced (Gracile and East) Meds, sometimes with Armenoid influence:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3589/3288662301_28c65ee53a_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3329/3289479760_30142f51f5_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5175/5418692840_862bf8aa88_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5259/5418087109_bef2604cba_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5051/5418086873_5985644d19_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5418086089_3d25c20450_m.jpg


Norid/Nordo-Med types that show Norman and/or northern Italian influence:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5418690030_11c2edbd81_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5215/5418085641_9af6b1ab1b_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5253/5418690650_d6e8d3014f_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5094/5418087535_b6b641cba9_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5097/5418692934_f2762d29d5_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/3289480134_fdc42e350d_m.jpg


Dinaro-East Med types who look Greek, who resemble the people of the Aegean islands:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3606/3288662677_c1f8ec6529_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3481/3289479176_06bce8a1a0_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3275/3289478764_cfc54c69a0_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3286/3288663413_583cb23077_m.jpg

And South-Med influenced Cromagnids who look vaguely "North African" -- a similar type is found in the Canary islands:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5057/5418087319_b15cf4d470_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5092/5418691866_066e667aa6_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5055/5418086939_8b22818a11_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5133/5418690956_03bbe9ac60_m.jpg



Overlapping groups: Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, Coastal NW Africans (Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco), Canarian Spaniards, islander and southern Greeks, Cypriots, Lebanese, northern Italians, and French.

[Sikeliot]

The southern coast of Sicily (Agrigento, southern Caltanissetta, and Ragusa)was under the control of the ancient Greeks, who founded many cities such as Akragas (Agrigento), Camarina, and Gela. These regions bear great phenotypical similarity to the Maltese, who are largely descended from Sicilians from the southern coast. Maltese surnames such as Camilleri, Scerri, Vella, Spiteri, Schembri, Portelli and many others are derived directly from these provinces.

There is also Italic influence in Ragusa, and Arab influence in Caltanissetta, but these elements are not predominant although they are present.

Common types include Alpine-Meds with East Med, Armenoid, and Dinaric influence:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3657/3366165389_734ab2c126_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3557/3366194933_e6806f4010_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3600/3366989500_df74393d98_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3445/3366989400_e6f14a1299_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3426/3366989176_52a61af255_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3609/3366988750_57d3ed9230_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3606/3366988436_dd41500604_m.jpg


Italic "Dinarid" types:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/3366165331_f4a7628bed_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3540/3366989236_53a165505b_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3582/3366989010_32a84fcd1e_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3423/3366988960_8e2164c9b9_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3598/3366164299_7575244451_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3643/3366163989_c6c7c0004f_m.jpg


And "Arab influenced" looking types that bear resemblance to coastal North Africans:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3585/3366989336_d7642b6782_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3653/3366988362_f1a6fa4712_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5064964644_b224a4c9f8_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5064964042_5a63794a91_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5064963906_39f9d1f700_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5095/5418689820_00e003b3b2_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5418690196_6667de0e05_m.jpg



Overlapping groups: Coastal NW Africans, Lebanese/Syrians, Jews, Assyrians, Greeks, and Cypriots.

[Sikeliot]

Central Sicily (Enna and Caltanissetta) is by far the most isolated part of the island. Genetically, they show higher "Caucasus" influence in their genome and lower influence from Northern Europeans, Arabs, and Levantines.

Greeks did settle in Enna, taking over many towns by the Sikels, an Italic tribe. Byzantine Greeks (including Hellenized Syrians) did found some towns, including Nicosia in Enna. There were also smaller numbers of Lombards who settled, most of whom still speak Gallo-Italic dialects today and live predominantly in Piazza Armerina and nearby towns in Enna. Caltanissetta, named after the Arabic phrase "Qalat al-Nisa'', has some vestiges of Arab settlement as well as Norman due to proximity to Palermo.

The average person in these provinces shows more Caucasid elements, stronger Italic, and almost no Levantine. Inland Sicilians are indeed a bit lighter and more "continental" looking than those by the coast. In Enna, larger cities such as Enna have a larger number of lighter pigmented types, possibly due to Lombard admixture, than smaller rural towns such as Pietraperzia and Nicosia where people are much darker with more Armenoid influence.

Predominant types include Dinaro-inspired "Italic" types:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6223/6298340890_aa3205aa8f_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6048/6297811439_433a9632ee_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6239/6298339654_047ce0af1d_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6217/6297810097_ddfc252f28_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6043/6297809643_3bbfcfb8e2_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6059/6298338696_bb6cb27702_m.jpg

Square-headed Anatolian types that show influence from the Caucasus, mostly Alpine-Meds with, sometimes, Armenoid influence:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6094/6297811547_4643e05815_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6031/6297811717_e1903271d4_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6217/6298341112_b329123e82_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6035/6297811837_d2b7a9b646_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6036/6298339492_b8f988a266_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6055/6298339724_c0900337ce_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6094/6297810669_d93391e3a8_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6220/6298340050_b11fe946dc_m.jpg


And types that look generically continental/Central European:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6229/6298341194_2b21c4d072_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6235/6297810757_047f2dc4c4_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6106/6297810175_ef4443e8b4_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6213/6297809811_1076cea2f3_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6096/6297809525_645487b819_m.jpg



Overlapping groups: Greeks, mainland southern Italians, Turks, Armenians, northern Italians, and Central Europeans (Ausrians, Swiss, etc.)

[Sikeliot]

Open for comments!

[WOOHP]

You're putting so much emphasis on what they "should" look like, based on invaders - presuming that they actually did put a big marker in Sicily. I mean come on, you can't barely tell that Palermo is ligther than the darkest part of Sicily. Sicily should be very homogeneous. We can't even be sure that Autosomal data correlates that well with phenotype, nonetheless thinking that 2-3% higher North Euro/Caucasus should make a visible difference.

[Sikeliot]

You're putting so much emphasis on what they "should" look like, based on invaders - presuming that they actually did put a big marker in Sicily. I mean come on, you can't barely tell that Palermo is ligther than the darkest part of Sicily. Sicily should be very homogeneous. We can't even be sure that Autosomal data correlates that well with phenotype, nonetheless thinking that 2-3% higher North Euro/Caucasus should make a visible difference.

Well, those are the predominant types based on what I have seen. The common trend is that Italic, Levantine, and Greek-influenced types are seen throughout the entire island.

[WOOHP]

Well, those are the predominant types based on what I have seen. The common trend is that Italic, Levantine, and Greek-influenced types are seen throughout the entire island.

I have not said that the overall picture is wrong, but that you're exaggerating the differences between the various parts of the island.

[Sikeliot]

I have not said that the overall picture is wrong, but that you're exaggerating the differences between the various parts of the island.

Well, keep in mind that various areas have remained generally isolated, and are probably a bit inbred. I don't think I have exaggerated the differences, anyhow. The only true differences are that you find fewer people who could pass as northern Italian in the east, as well as fewer people who show North African influences.

[Smeagol]

Good work.:thumb001:

[Sikeliot]

Good work.:thumb001:

Do you think I got it pretty much right? I think I got it down better than any 19th century anthropologist because unlike them I have family from 2 parts of the island.

[Smeagol]

Do you think I got it pretty much right?

Yes, I think so.

[Sikeliot]

I'll be adding to this with more photos from various places. I based my analysis on what Sicilianu101 told me, in part, of his trip along the northern coast and into the center of the island, where North African influence can be seen with frequency along western coastal towns, while inland regions are more continental European in appearance (he indicated that one of his cousins, who looks strongly MENA, stood out there), and the east is more East Med influenced.

[PlanA]

What do Italian members think about this guide? Do they agree on it?

[Sikeliot]

What do Italian members think about this guide? Do they agree on it?

It's heavily based off the combined word of 3 Sicilian-Americans I know who have traveled across the island, and my own experiences but largely the former.

[Libertas]

Do you think I got it pretty much right? I think I got it down better than any 19th century anthropologist because unlike them I have family from 2 parts of the island.

You've done an excellent job.:thumb001:

[Sikeliot]

I disagree with what I have been told on people in central Sicily (Enna, Caltanissetta etc) actually. Every picture I've seen of people from the inland areas is full of Armenoid and Anatolian/Caucasus types, but people say often that those inland are lighter and more continental European looking, so I actually portrayed that above while also taking into account those who look almost Armenian.

[JohnSmith]

I think it looks right to me. I have seen many Sicilians through the years and they can be a diverse group.

[Sikeliot]

I think it looks right to me. I have seen many Sicilians through the years and they can be a diverse group.

Which types that I have listed did you see the most frequently?

[JohnSmith]

I would say Dinarid and East Med,, some Armenoid also. The one thing I noticed with Sicilians vs Mainland Italians would be two things mainly. I rarely see Sicilians with Brownish hair it seems to be very very dark. Plus, they also are quite short especially the men. Very few over 5 ft 8 In, so there is not a strong Atlanto Med influence really. But again there are always Sicilans which show the opposite.

[Sikeliot]

I would say Dinarid and East Med,, some Armenoid also. The one thing I noticed with Sicilians vs Mainland Italians would be two things mainly. I rarely see Sicilians with Brownish hair it seems to be very very dark. Plus, they also are quite short especially the men. Very few over 5 ft 8 In, so there is not a strong Atlanto Med influence really. But again there are always Sicilans which show the opposite.

Sicilians can be light haired too, but when hair is dark, you're right it tends to be very dark. Thick black eyebrows are also common, which really give an ancient Greek sort of look to many. I have that look myself.

I think there is a Nordid influence that can be seen in some, too.

[Sikeliot]

Some other phenotypes I think are typical for various areas..

Eastern region (Messina, Enna, Catania, Syracuse) -- "Greek" look.

http://cdn.mondoreality.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Marcella-Bella-Verissimo.jpg
http://www.sebastianopuccio.com/shooting_AlessiaBruna/images/3675096867_d579e938b1_o.jpg
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/ArchivioNews/20120619_coco.jpg
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/West+Side+Story+Opening+Night+Arrivals+c7667QK2W_B l.jpg







Southern region (Agrigento, Ragusa, etc) -- a lot of people have very "exaggerated" Near Eastern influenced features, like the Maltese.

http://www.perlacitta.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/n1290799005_30381449_630171.jpg
http://pandoxeio.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/luigi-pirandello.jpg
http://www.repubblica.it/2008/04/sezioni/politica/verso-elezioni-18/voto-camilleri/stor_12664200_13410.jpg
https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/944155_10201107787607621_1615312065_n.jpg
https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/374044_2256792575022_963498752_n.jpg







Northwestern region -- Trapani, Palermo, etc. basically the same as in the south but a softened version of it and more light pigmentation.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3kqvboxM2EccThR0iHJMXVb4c8ncEZ dVNLj7RQcSyEoNtK2P7_g
http://i2.listal.com/image/1460163/600full-isabella-ragonese.jpg
http://www.buzzine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/luca_guadagnino_20100624.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3156/2904681651_d6bbe28bd3_z.jpg
http://www.politikis.si/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Giusy-Buscemi-Miss-Italia-2012.jpg
http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Valentino+Last+Emperor+Premiere+ii6gfQBmNdEl.jpg

[Gaijin]

I would like to contribute to this thread, and shape the look of Sicilians.
Here, let me help you out.

Sicilian super star, Vincent Guadagnino.
http://www.jerseyshorequotes.com/pictures/wallpaper/vinny-jersey-shore-yearbook.jpg

[alfieb]

Sikeliot refuses to believe that Vinny can be anything other than a mixed person, lol.

Both of his parents are Sicilian. There's nothing wrong with how the guy looks.

[YeshAtid]

Sikeliot refuses to believe that Vinny can be anything other than a mixed person, lol.

Both of his parents are Sicilian. There's nothing wrong with how the guy looks.

He does look a tad mongoloid

[Sikeliot]

Both of his parents are Sicilian. There's nothing wrong with how the guy looks.

It's not that any one feature is a problem, it's the combination of his eyes, hair, and coloring together that look very strange to me. What would you attribute his look to, then? Surely he's atypical, but none of the groups who have ever been present have been similar looking to him.

I see him as the Sicilian equivalent of Rita Ora in terms of looks.

[alfieb]

Yes, she's atypical looking, but she was born to a Muslim Albanian family in Kosovo. Outliers exist. There'll always be people who don't fit the perception of you picture their ethnicity to look like.

[Sikeliot]

Yes, she's atypical looking, but she was born to a Muslim Albanian family in Kosovo. Outliers exist. There'll always be people who don't fit the perception of you picture their ethnicity to look like.

I want to know who you attribute his look to. He doesn't look Greek. He doesn't look Levantine. And he certainly doesn't look Italic nor Norman.

[alfieb]

North African, more than Levantine or Greek. I don't remember where his family are from, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it is AG/CL.

[Sikeliot]

North African, more than Levantine or Greek. I don't remember where his family are from, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it is AG/CL.

I agree that he has a Berberid influence, but he looks part SSA to me. North Africans, in the time in which they'd have come to Sicily, would not have looked like today's Moroccans for instance.

[Tooting Carmen]

Interesting. I've looked at councillors from many places across Europe, and few rival the Sicilian ones for their exoticness, principally in Catania, Syracuse and Caltanissetta.

[Sikeliot]

Interesting. I've looked at councillors from many places across Europe, and few rival the Sicilian ones for their exoticness, principally in Catania, Syracuse and Caltanissetta.

I think Trapani and Agrigento are both more "exotic" in features than Catania or Syracuse, but the two latter might be homogenously darker.

[arcticwolf]

Seems they can vary greatly in appearance, I have not seen any IRL AFAIK.

That reminds me of the movie "True Romance" where Christopher Walken played a Sicilian, and pulled it off pretty good, so I guess if he can pass for a Sicilian anyone could! :P

[Sikeliot]

Seems they can vary greatly in appearance, I have not seen any IRL AFAIK.

That reminds me of the movie "True Romance" where Christopher Walken played a Sicilian, and pulled it off pretty good, so I guess if he can pass for a Sicilian anyone could! :P

I think most people can pass as Sicilian (most Europeans, most West Asians). The only exceptions are people who come from very "distinct" looking groups; Finns, East Slavs, Portuguese, some Brits. Otherwise, everyone else in Europe passes more or less, and most West Asians until you start getting the Iranid and Arabid.

[SilverKnight]

so Sicily is an ancient melting pot after all.

[Sikeliot]

so Sicily is an ancient melting pot after all.

More or less, but it's fairly homogenized by now I am sure. What is clear is about half of the Sicilian gene pool is Neolithic West Asian, while most of the rest is Sardinian-like Mediterranean genes that are shared with all Mediterranean groups from Iberians to Egyptians.

[Tooting Carmen]

For what it's worth, I thought I'd contribute by posting some councillors from different places in Sicily.

Sciacca: http://www.comune.sciacca.ag.it/consigliocomunale/pagemaster.asp?idscattxt=2009731153222&setcat=c
Ragusa: http://www.comune.ragusa.gov.it/comune/consiglio.html
Trapani: http://www.comune.trapani.it/web/index.php/gruppi-consiliari
Syracuse: http://www.comune.siracusa.it/index.php/en/il-consiglio
Caltanissetta: http://www.comune.caltanissetta.it/amministrazione-comunale/consiglio-comunale/consiglio-comunale.aspx

[Sikeliot]

For what it's worth, I thought I'd contribute by posting some councillors from different places in Sicily.

Sciacca: http://www.comune.sciacca.ag.it/consigliocomunale/pagemaster.asp?idscattxt=2009731153222&setcat=c
Ragusa: http://www.comune.ragusa.gov.it/comune/consiglio.html
Trapani: http://www.comune.trapani.it/web/index.php/gruppi-consiliari
Syracuse: http://www.comune.siracusa.it/index.php/en/il-consiglio
Caltanissetta: http://www.comune.caltanissetta.it/amministrazione-comunale/consiglio-comunale/consiglio-comunale.aspx



The Syracusans look very Greek. The ones from Sciacca show the most exotic elements, with Ragusa close by. Caltanissetta and Trapani are lighter which is surprising since Trapani is notoriously dark.

[Tooting Carmen]

The Syracusans look very Greek. The ones from Sciacca show the most exotic elements, with Ragusa close by. Caltanissetta and Trapani are lighter which is surprising since Trapani is notoriously dark.

I don't think the samples look that different to each other. In all of them, most people look distinctly East Med with minorities who can fit either in Northern Europe on the one hand or the MENA/South Asia on the other.

[Sikeliot]

I don't think the samples look that different to each other. In all of them, most people look distinctly East Med with minorities who can fit either in Northern Europe on the one hand or the MENA/South Asia on the other.

The differences are subtle yes. I am wondering if maybe in reality, most Sicilians are simply Neolithic West Asians and Sardinian-like Paleolithic Meds mixed with the invaders over time, rather than being primarily descended from any invading group in particular.

[Tooting Carmen]

The differences are subtle yes. I am wondering if maybe in reality, most Sicilians are simply Neolithic West Asians and Sardinian-like Paleolithic Meds mixed with the invaders over time, rather than being primarily descended from any invading group in particular.

Yes probably. It's funny - I am told on another thread that Spaniards look exactly the same from Pamplona to Malaga, yet here we are expected to believe that noticeable regional differences exist within Sicily? Hmmm...

[Sikeliot]

Yes probably. It's funny - I am told on another thread that Spaniards look exactly the same from Pamplona to Malaga, yet here we are expected to believe that noticeable regional differences exist within Sicily? Hmmm...

Well in Sicily the coasts often have more light pigmented people due to higher European settlement versus rural inland areas where people are darker, but who knows why.

[Tooting Carmen]

Well in Sicily the coasts often have more light pigmented people due to higher European settlement versus rural inland areas where people are darker, but who knows why.

Well ok, but if that is just one island within a big country, then why, by contrast, are we supposed to believe that no real regional differences exist in a country as big and diverse as Spain?

[Black Wolf]

Yes the differences throughout a lot of the South especially Calabria and Sicily are very subtle.

[Tooting Carmen]

Anyway Sikeliot, how'd you classify the councillors I posted?

[Sikeliot]

Anyway Sikeliot, how'd you classify the councillors I posted?

Mostly East Meds, with other inputs (Berid, Atlantid, Nordid, and Armenoid).

[Tooting Carmen]

Mostly East Meds, with other inputs (Berid, Atlantid, Nordid, and Armenoid).

Is it wrong of me to say that, while the majority of Sicilians look distinctly SE European, the percentage who'd pass in the Near East (up to and including possibly Syria) is considerably higher than those who'd pass in Northern Europe?

[Sikeliot]

Is it wrong of me to say that, while the majority of Sicilians look distinctly SE European, the percentage who'd pass in the Near East (up to and including possibly Syria) is considerably higher than those who'd pass in Northern Europe?

How far north are we talking?
The Alps region is the furthest I'd go before I'd say that it's only a small minority that pass. North of the Alps, it's harder to find Sicilians to fit there.

As far as the Levant goes, the non-Arabid ones can pass well.

[Tooting Carmen]

How far north are we talking?
The Alps region is the furthest I'd go before I'd say that it's only a small minority that pass. North of the Alps, it's harder to find Sicilians to fit there.

As far as the Levant goes, the non-Arabid ones can pass well.

You misunderstand. By Northern Europe, I mean France, Austria and Switzerland upwards. Even the Med types in Southern France (most people aren't actually particularly dark in Provence, Cote d'Azur etc.) don't really look anything like the majority of Sicilians I have seen in this forum and elsewhere. I mean that there are more Sicilians who pass in Israel, Lebanon and Syria (less so Jordan and Palestine as they start to look much darker) than there are who pass even in Britain let alone Sweden.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Do you think I got it pretty much right? I think I got it down better than any 19th century anthropologist because unlike them I have family from 2 parts of the island.

Yeah you summed it up pretty well... I will be reading this over and over and looking closer but so far so good! :)

[Sikeliot]

Yeah you summed it up pretty well... I will be reading this over and over and looking closer but so far so good! :)


Do you see differences between them and other southern Italians?

I have noticed that people in Trapani, Agrigento, and Caltanissetta look very "Near Eastern", while people from Enna, Messina, Catania, and Syracuse look very "Greek". Ragusa is kind of both Greek and Near Eastern looking at the same time, while Palermo is the most Western European influenced (Norman, Spanish etc).

[MINARDOWICZ]

No doubt... What are your thoughts on Calabria? I have seen quite a few individuals with very good hair from here! Hahaha! have you seen their hair as being unique when compared to other southern italian regions?

[Sikeliot]

No doubt... What are your thoughts on Calabria? I have seen quite a few individuals with very good hair from here! Hahaha! have you seen their hair as being unique when compared to other southern italian regions?


Very thick black hair usually I have noticed. I think Calabrese are homogenously darker than Sicilians.

[alfieb]

Very thick black hair usually I have noticed. I think Calabrese are homogenously darker than Sicilians.

They're far more homogenous in general.

[Tooting Carmen]

I've never understood why people here insist that the Calabrese are so exceptionally dark and exotic. From the photos I've seen, they're not really any different to other South Italians and many Greeks. Compare these different regional councils:

Calabria http://www.consiglioregionale.calabria.it/hp4/index.asp?accesso=2&selez=composizioneC
Basilicata http://www.consiglio.basilicata.it/consiglionew/site/Consiglio/section.jsp?sec=1032
Apulia http://www.consiglio.puglia.it/applicazioni/cadan/cms_consiglieri/datarepeater.aspx?f=c

[alfieb]

That's the point. They are Greeks. Or, what Greeks today would be without Slavic and/or Turkish admixture.

Go to Italy and see what people say about the Calabrese and their swarthiness. It is not nice.

[Tooting Carmen]

That's the point. They are Greeks. Or, what Greeks today would be without Slavic and/or Turkish admixture.

Well ok, but surely the same could be said about Lucanians, Apulians and some Sicilians is my point.

[Harkonnen]

I've understood Sardinians are bit distinct in the mediterranean genetic scheme. Nicolino Locche (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8aerkHG_7A) would still pass Sicilian amirite.. Guys got style :)

[alfieb]

Well ok, but surely the same could be said about Lucanians, Apulians and some Sicilians is my point.

To a lesser extent. In Sicily, there were always significant other populations, whether from the Middle East, Southern Europe, or even Northern Europe. In Apulia, the original natives were Illyrians, they were briefly conquered by Arabs for a generation or two the 900s, and eventually all of the Muslims of Sicily were deported to Apulia in the 1200s.

I would say that Southern Lucanians, extreme Southern Apulians, Eastern Sicilians, and Calabrians are more-or-less Greek.

[Sikeliot]

I would say that Southern Lucanians, extreme Southern Apulians, Eastern Sicilians, and Calabrians are more-or-less Greek.

What's peculiar is that autosomally on a PCA plot all Sicilians cluster together, yet on Dodecad Oracle, easterners will get some mixture of Greek and Cypriot, or Greek and Jewish, but westerners will come up something like half Levantine, a quarter Sardinian, and a quarter Swedish. And somehow, both average to the same place..

I question though if Calabrese are 100% Greek. There is much more Armenoid influence in Calabria than Greece (i.e. the Al Molinaro, Leon Panetta look) unless you think it got bred out of Greece with Slavic invasions and movement from one place to another.

[Sikeliot]

I've never understood why people here insist that the Calabrese are so exceptionally dark and exotic. From the photos I've seen, they're not really any different to other South Italians and many Greeks.

Calabrese are basically identical to Sicilians from Messina down to Syracuse.

[Harkonnen]

Anyway it's a pretty tune on that vid I posted & if somebody happens to know more about it, I'd be interested to know (presuming that somebody actually clicked and watched it, you never know you never know..)

It popped my mind that there was this Finnish rallye driver, Henri Toivonen, who went and lost his life on rallye Corsica and to me looks like could be native to the region. Natives might have different ideas about this & I'd be interested to know.

http://static.iltalehti.fi/ralli/henri1_2304JID_820_ri.jpg
http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/henri-toivonen-7.jpg

[Sikeliot]

It popped my mind that there was this Finnish rallye driver, Henri Toivonen, who went and lost his life on rallye Corsica and to me looks like could be native to the region. Natives might have different ideas about this & I'd be interested to know.

He looks distinctly northern European to me.

[Harkonnen]

Well that is interesting. Apart from the tiny eyes I would not call him distinctly northern, at least in the Finnish northern context.

Here's a similarly southern looking blond guy, Heikki Kovalainen (and he's from Kuusamo lol). Imagine him with shorter forehead & he'd look southern

http://www.formula1.com/photos/teams_and_drivers/driver_profile/main/main_profile_813.jpg

He looks like that spaghetto western guy.

[Sikeliot]

He doesn't look very Italian, sorry.

[alfieb]

Neither of them fit at all.

[Alessio]

Why do all those Mediterranean groups share these same Sardinian-like genes? And what are Sardinian-like genes?


More or less, but it's fairly homogenized by now I am sure. What is clear is about half of the Sicilian gene pool is Neolithic West Asian, while most of the rest is Sardinian-like Mediterranean genes that are shared with all Mediterranean groups from Iberians to Egyptians.

[Stormer99]

You're putting so much emphasis on what they "should" look like, based on invaders - presuming that they actually did put a big marker in Sicily. I mean come on, you can't barely tell that Palermo is ligther than the darkest part of Sicily. Sicily should be very homogeneous. We can't even be sure that Autosomal data correlates that well with phenotype, nonetheless thinking that 2-3% higher North Euro/Caucasus should make a visible difference.

Northwestern Sicilians are clearly the lightest if you use common sense.

[Sikeliot]

Northwestern Sicilians are clearly the lightest if you use common sense.

Lighter than other Sicilians yes, especially on the coast. But in general they are still dark as a group like other southern Italians.

[Rambo07]

Sicily is like a small microcosm of the Med basin , not as diverse as the Levant, but for an island it has a lot of diversity.

[Sikeliot]

I should have also done a post on Malta, but that goes hand in hand with Agrigento and the southern coast.

[Tim O'Brien]

Generally good looking people, I would be happy if I marry a Sicilian girl

[Styrian Mujo]

Generally good looking people, I would be happy if I marry a Sicilian girl
She will get fat and grow a mustache by the time she's 35.

[Tim O'Brien]

She will get fat and grow a mustache by the time she's 35.
Really?

[Styrian Mujo]

Really?
I live in southren europe and women don't age as gracefuly as north european women.

[Toscano]

Generally good looking people, I would be happy if I marry a Sicilian girl

Sir. Please don't! Stay with your own race.

After seeing all these pics of sicilians i start to think i lost a bit of respect for em. Some really look arabic influenced.

I didn't know they were so arabic.. Very sad to see.

[Styrian Mujo]

Generally good looking people, I would be happy if I marry a Sicilian girl
Why don't you find yourself a nice White Anglo-Celtic girl:confused: because of people like you northwestern europe and north america will turn in to a swarthy cesspool like southren europe.

[Sikeliot]

After seeing all these pics of sicilians i start to think i lost a bit of respect for em. Some really look arabic influenced.

I didn't know they were so arabic.. Very sad to see.

I actually thought I downplayed those types of appearances. I actually didn't choose the pictures directly but took them from another source. It's not so much Arabic influence but rather ancient Neolithic West Asian, I think.

[Peyrol]

She will get fat and grow a mustache by the time she's 35.

Well, at least she don't batte il marciapiede as many former Jugoslavs here are used to do.

[Styrian Mujo]

Well, at least she don't batte il marciapiede as many former Jugoslavs here are used to do.
What does that mean?

[Axios]

nice thread bro :)

[Selurong]

Ahh Sicily! Home of the former Emirate of Sicily. Battleground during the first Punic wars and it has a famous Chess move named after it. Why is there so much subclassifications for European phenos when Arab phenos are more diverse? (Owing to African, Asian and European trade contacts)

[Sikeliot]

Ahh Sicily! Home of the former Emirate of Sicily. Battleground during the first Punic wars and it has a famous Chess move named after it. Why is there so much subclassifications for European phenos when Arab phenos are more diverse? (Owing to African, Asian and European trade contacts)

What is your impression of the looks in this thread and/or Sicilians you've met? We are very diverse I think.

[Selurong]

What is your impression of the looks in this thread and/or Sicilians you've met? We are very diverse I think.

I find Sicilians or Italians in general, superior in looks and intelligence to Nordics.

I'm not attracted to blonde-haired Nordics but I find Italians attractive.

[Selurong]

wrong post

[Fire Haired]

I can definitley see the post neolithic south-west Asian influence in Sicilians. These are all of the light eyed individuals i could find. I am wondering if light eyes-hair-skin are connected in more majority middle eastern descended Europeans like they are in northern Europeans(middle eastern ancestry probably varies from around 50%(north-west) to the late 30's%(north-east)). Did light eyes-skin-hair become connected in northern Europeans ancestors after the Mesolithic(in mixed near eastern farmer descendants), or did they get it from their Mesolithic European ancestors?

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7003/6816236097_0ef3312e13_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3586/3560032428_8e9d26ba48_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8466159937_29d8792286_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8097/8467256054_41c8c15a46_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5051/5418086873_5985644d19_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5253/5418690650_d6e8d3014f_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5215/5418085641_9af6b1ab1b_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5094/5418087535_b6b641cba9_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/3289480134_fdc42e350d_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6239/6298339654_047ce0af1d_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6229/6298341194_2b21c4d072_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6217/6297810097_ddfc252f28_m.jpg

It does seem that the light eyed individuals are lighter skinned than the brown eyes ones on average, but there are some dark skinned light eyed individuals. Is this from recent modern north European like admixture(bronze age Urnfield culture, various Germanic people, Celts?), Mesolithic European ancestry, or just west Eurasian ancestry(middle eastern, European, and ANE).

[Sikeliot]

Light features implies Italic, Lombard, Norman or even Ionian Greek.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Ahh Sicily! Home of the former Emirate of Sicily. Battleground during the first Punic wars and it has a famous Chess move named after it. Why is there so much subclassifications for European phenos when Arab phenos are more diverse? (Owing to African, Asian and European trade contacts)

More european people into this hobby, I guess? Especially on a EUROPEAN cultural forum, although Apricity is now more of a world culture forum, wouldn't you say? :)

[Ianus]

It does seem that the light eyed individuals are lighter skinned than the brown eyes ones on average, but there are some dark skinned light eyed individuals. Is this from recent modern north European like admixture(bronze age Urnfield culture, various Germanic people, Celts?), Mesolithic European ancestry, or just west Eurasian ancestry(middle eastern, European, and ANE).

Some of these people are clearly tanned. Around 25% of Sicilians have light eyes.

[Hadouken]

Why don't you find yourself a nice White Anglo-Celtic girl:confused: because of people like you northwestern europe and north america will turn in to a swarthy cesspool like southren europe.

you do realize that sicilians are caucasian people and that if the user Tim O'Brien who is Irish/Scottish procreated with Sicilian Woman the Children would come out as "white" ( :rolleyes2: ) no matter how swarthy the Woman would be

Logic ...not even once

[Sikeliot]

Some of these people are clearly tanned. Around 25% of Sicilians have light eyes.

That average is skewed by some towns having a lot more light eyes than others. It's not 25% island wide.

[Peyrol]

That average is skewed by some towns having a lot more light eyes than others. It's not 25% island wide.

It's sometning as 30-35% in the west and 15-20% in the East.

Btw the ''less light eyed'' people here are sards and calabrians.

[Sikeliot]

It's sometning as 30-35% in the west and 15-20% in the East.

Btw the ''less light eyed'' people here are sards and calabrians.

By west you mean Palermo, because Trapani, Agrigento etc are very dark regions even compared to Messina.
I doubt that 20% of the people in Messina and Enna have light eyes, btw. Must be less.

[Selurong]

More european people into this hobby, I guess? Especially on a EUROPEAN cultural forum, although Apricity is now more of a world culture forum, wouldn't you say? :)

Lol that explains it bro.

:)

[Axios]

I agree that he has a Berberid influence, but he looks part SSA to me. North Africans, in the time in which they'd have come to Sicily, would not have looked like today's Moroccans for instance.

what you mean about that?

[Luovatus]

Very good thread. I´ve only visited Kos, so this excellent info.

[Sikeliot]

Very good thread. I´ve only visited Kos, so this excellent info.

This is the Sicily thread. How do they compare to Greeks in Kos?

[Luovatus]

This is the Sicily thread. How do they compare to Greeks in Kos?

Meds & Mediterranean Sea of course !

[Sikeliot]

Meds & Mediterranean Sea of course !

So they look the same as those in Kos?

[Luovatus]

So they look the same as those in Kos?

In my point of view all Meds looks the same. That´s why threads like these are very interesting to me...:p

[Sikeliot]

A new Sicilian poster informed me that my post on Enna was incorrect, and that there are actually a lot of light-eyed Norid types, depigmented Armenoids, and northern Italian types, and that they are one of the lightest parts of the island. I don't personally find this to be true but since they actually have family from there and I do not, I thought I'd post this and honor their contribution.

They also added that the people from Agrigento and Sciacca are very dark and non-European looking, but I didn't mention that either in my own post so I will say it too. I guess I had the two regions backwards.

[Tooting Carmen]

Enna Province:

Pietraperzia http://www.comune.pietraperzia.en.it/consiglio/consiglio.htm
http://www.comune.pietraperzia.en.it/GIUNTA.htm

Nicosia http://www.comunenicosia.gov.it/la-giunta-municipale/
http://www.comunenicosia.gov.it/il-consiglio-comunale/

[Tooting Carmen]

Vittoria, Southeastern Sicily http://www.comunevittoria.gov.it/index.php?content=struttura&id=18

[Alessio]

Why did you use the MDLP k27 spreadsheet ?


Since some members here insist on clinging to archaic texts that have outlived their purpose and insist on speaking on behalf of my own people, I am going to make a detailed thread that literally walks through each province of the island one by one and breaks down what all of my experience proves to be the predominant type in each, with a separate post for genetic data to support it.

Just so everyone knows what is where:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Provinces_of_Sicily_map.png

With the latest genetic data:


WEST SICILIAN (Palermo, Trapani):

North European: 9.76%
Caucasus-Near Eastern: 33.02%
North African: 3.29%
Gedrosia-Caucasian: 10.98%
Southwest European: 26.36%
Arabic: 8.58%
Cushitic: 1.63%


CENTER SICILIAN (Enna, Caltanissetta):

North European: 7.35%
Caucasus-Near Eastern: 35.39%
North African: 2.90%
Caucasus-Gedrosia: 9.39%
Southwest European: 25.37%
Arabic: 6.73%
Cushitic: 3.56%


SOUTH SICILIAN (Coastal Agrigento, Caltanissetta, and Ragusa):

North European: 8.67%
Caucasus-Near Eastern: 34.80%
North African: 3.03%
Caucasus-Gedrosia: 10.83%
Southwest European: 27.20%
Arabic: 8.01%
Cushitic: 2.84%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndHo5TnJZR2VFYW1lcExMNGUyWTVhe VE#gid=0

[Sikeliot]

It was the best at the time. I could use something else now but very few are broken down so well by region.

[Alessio]

Like I thought


It was the best at the time. I could use something else now but very few are broken down so well by region.

[Ange Coniglio]

Sikeliot:

Thank you for this detailed analysis. I am experienced in "paper" genealogy of Sicilians, but not in DNA genealogy, though I have had my DNA tested at 23andMe. A recurring question that occurs to me when considering haplogroups and ancestral phenotypes follows, prefaced by my belief: I believe all humans originated in Africa. Accordingly, if the date of typing were given as say 50,000 bce, everyone's type would be "100% African". As we move forward in time, types that evolved in various parts of the world would start to show different characteristics, identifiable as "Central European", etc. For those distributions to have any meaning to me, they need to be categorized as to WHEN IN TIME they occurred. So what is the historical time frame of the Sicilian types you've identified?

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot:

Thank you for this detailed analysis. I am experienced in "paper" genealogy of Sicilians, but not in DNA genealogy, though I have had my DNA tested at 23andMe. A recurring question that occurs to me when considering haplogroups and ancestral phenotypes follows, prefaced by my belief: I believe all humans originated in Africa. Accordingly, if the date of typing were given as say 50,000 bce, everyone's type would be "100% African". As we move forward in time, types that evolved in various parts of the world would start to show different characteristics, identifiable as "Central European", etc. For those distributions to have any meaning to me, they need to be categorized as to WHEN IN TIME they occurred. So what is the historical time frame of the Sicilian types you've identified?


People may not agree with me, but I think that Sicilians started out Cypriot-like (a mixture of Neolithic Med and Neolithic West Asian), and acquired Northern and Western European admixture (which today amounts to about 15-20% of our total ancestry) which is responsible for us plotting genetically within Europe rather than just outside of the Levant. I am sure as someone who has been genetically tested, you've found out that Sicilians, as a whole, are genetically close to Ashkenazi Jews, mainland southern Italians (i.e. Calabria, Apulia), and cluster between Greece and Cyprus. A bit surprising given where Sicily is located, but being in the center of the Mediterranean, it was an easily accessible land.

Now, as for phenotypes. I think that the type I describe as "East Med", basically the look you see in someone like Marcella Bella, would be the original Sicilian type, along with the Cromagnid type we call Berid, which is found throughout Southern Europe and even into North Africa. I'd say that West Asian influences (Armenoid, Syrid, Arabid) arrived via Phoenicians, assimilated Jews, Carthaginians, and Arabs. Western European influences would have arrived via Italics and subsequent northern groups like Lombards, Normans, and Goths, while Greeks would not have differed much from whomever was in Sicily to begin with, both being neighboring Southern European populations.

Essentially I believe history has seen a genetic tug of war, if you will, between Europe and the Levant for Sicily, with different influences pushing and pulling us one way or the other. Right now, we are genetically within the European spectrum. But it may not have always been so.

What is your opinion on this? As a Sicilian which other groups do you think we are similar to?

Also let me know if you'd like to share on 23andme. Unless by chance we already are sharing. :lol: In fact, being from central Sicily, a region that received comparatively little outside influence compared to Palermo or Catania, your own results might be informative in figuring out which influences might be more recent versus ancient.

[Porpolita]

MESSINA, CATANIA, and SYRACUSE:

Messina was first settled by an Italic group, the Sikels, from whom the Greeks gave the island it's name, Sikelia. The Sikels did not have any large-scale towns in the area when the Greeks settled, and most of the large towns to develop in Messina had been Greek from the start. Settled by Greeks from Euboea immediately upon their landing, and named after Messinia in the Peloponnese, most people in Messina display the phenotypes one would associate with the ancient Greeks, modified, at times, by an Italic influence that can also be seen on the Italian mainland. The Romans conquered and renamed the area Messana, but never settled en masse.

Catania, on the other hand, was home to a large Sikel settlement at the base of Mt. Etna, which, upon the Greek settlement, would develop into a town by the name of Katáne, later Catina by the Romans. With the majority of Greek settlement coming from Chalcis, and coming in contact with an Italic population, most of the population displays a similar appearance to that of Messina, strongly "Greco-Roman" and displaying similarities to both the southern and islander Greeks and to Italians from the mainland. However, Italic influence is likely much smaller due to the fact that Dionysius I, tyrant of Syracuse who overtook Catania, drove out all of the remaining Sikels and repopulated the area with Ionian Greeks.

Syracuse, the "greatest Greek city and the most beautiful of them all" according to Cicero, was settled by Corinthian and Tenean Greeks. To a much greater extent than in Messina and Catania, the Greeks drove the Sikels inland toward what is now Enna, and repopulated the area with Dorian Greeks from the southern Peloponnese. In contrast to her Ionian neighbors to the north, Syracuse was allied with Sparta, a fact that would become historically significant later. Syracuse is very likely the most "Greek" of all Sicily's provinces, due to these historical facts.

These three provinces were the last to be conquered by the Moors, and saw the least Norman influence, and therefore can be grouped together as one unit.

The predominant type is various Dinaro-Alpine-East Med combinations that can also be found amongst Aegean Greeks, but may show Italic/continental Italian contribution.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7142/6816236225_623b474a0b_m.jpghttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7004/6816232497_c93909ba19_m.jpghttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/6816235871_65a9851dec_m.jpghttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7003/6816236097_0ef3312e13_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8388/8467254934_b1e14fef25_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3563/3559220349_71b7feefe1_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3623/3560031886_8092e67eb8_m.jpg

I meant the the fifth guy in the Messina/Catania/Syracuse section. I see a great resemblance, though you are better looking.

[Kamal900]

Well, those are the predominant types based on what I have seen. The common trend is that Italic, Levantine, and Greek-influenced types are seen throughout the entire island.

I know that the thread is a bit old, but which regions in Sicily is the most east-med(levantine) looking?

[Sikeliot]

I know that the thread is a bit old, but which regions in Sicily is the most east-med(levantine) looking?

Agrigento, Palermo, Trapani, and Caltanissetta. At least that is my opinion.

[Kamal900]

Agrigento, Palermo, Trapani, and Caltanissetta. At least that is my opinion.

Can you post the link to your friend from Agrigento who cluster closely with the druze in his genetic results?

[Sikeliot]

His results? Or his phenotype?

[Kamal900]

His results? Or his phenotype?

His results.

[Sikeliot]

His results.

http://i59.tinypic.com/25sojep.jpghttp://i58.tinypic.com/6hqh52.jpg

[Neon Knight]

The Greek look seems more dominant overall.

[special]

the North Africans examples you picked are NOT the average North African I know, This is an example

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?73893-Classify-sicilian-singer-Bartolo-Rizzo-aka-Marracash

Everybody think the contrary of what you said: "he could pass in Yemen, Oman, Kuwait and of course Saudi Arabia, but he doesn't strike me as Moroccan." That's how his surname was born

[Enflamme]

Sikeliot: Why you have not pure Gracile-Med (Mediterranean pure in Europe) in Sicily? In picture that you have post, not Gracile-Med pure from Europe are present ...

It's weird.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot: Why you have not pure Gracile-Med (Mediterranean pure in Europe) in Sicily? In picture that you have post, not Gracile-Med pure from Europe are present ...

It's weird.

Because rarely is it in pure form. That type is embedded in many of the others pictured.

[Philo]

This has to b e the most retarded thing i have ever seen.

[Sikeliot]

This has to b e the most retarded thing i have ever seen.

Yet you decided to comment and bump it after so much inactivity...

[Philo]

Yet you decided to comment and bump it after so much inactivity...
That's because you put it in your fucking signature. Thus letting the world know what u consider important in life.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Open for comments!

You should visit Sicily, planning to go there anytime soon ?

[Sikeliot]

You should visit Sicily, planning to go there anytime soon ?

Eventually.
I anticipate the average person looking quite similar to what is posted here, given the consistency of the same phenotypes and spectrums appearing over and over.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Eventually.
I anticipate the average person looking quite similar to what is posted here, given the consistency of the same phenotypes and spectrums appearing over and over.

I trust you will documment well your in loco observations.

[Philo]

I trust you will documment well your in loco observations.

:lol:

[Bell Beaker]

Your comprehensive guide sucks.

[Sikeliot]

Your comprehensive guide sucks.

It is also years old. I would redo it if possible.

[Bell Beaker]

It is also years old. I would redo it if possible.

A small land like Sicily doesn't has that many differences.

[Sikeliot]

A small land like Sicily doesn't has that many differences.

The meaningful differences, I would have said nowadays, are:

- More Armenoid and Norid in the west
- More Berid on the south coast
- More Pontid in the southeast

and the rest are the same.

[Akragas]

Very impressed with your indepth analysis of the region and it's people. I have learned a great deal form reading this post.

[Sikeliot]

Very impressed with your indepth analysis of the region and it's people. I have learned a great deal form reading this post.

Do you agree with my analysis?

What I think is clear is that there are different regions of Sicily with different looks, though I now would say, a bit different from before, that:

- Messina and Catania look like Cretans and Dodecanese island Greeks -- East Med "Aegean" type looks
- Syracuse, Ragusa, southern Caltanissetta, and the eastern part of Agrigento province look like southern mainland Greeks (Peloponnese?) -- more Dinaric, Alpine, and other Balkan influences
- The western half of Agrigento (Sciacca and whereabouts), inland Caltanssetta, and roughly half of Palermitans look distinctly Levantine/North African/Mesopotamian influenced
- Trapani and the rest of Palermitans look more Western European influenced mixed with Levantine, and less "Mediterranean". Maybe similar to Ashkenazi Jews

[Akragas]

As I understand it, there were migrations from East to the West. I discovered that my family originated from Messina and migrated to Agrigento around 1200 or so. The greeks, who were I guess Byzantines at that time? moved around the island between the different colonies. I'ts hard to tell, but what I have seen in my travels and from my own family that there is a real mix, some red heads, blues eyes light skinned, brown eyes dark skinned, a real mix no matter where you go on the island. I gather it use to be more notable historically but this has likely changed over time. I am by no way an expert, this is just my perspective. That being said, your assessment does seem reasonable based on where the inhabitants likely originated from. When I go back to Sicily I will definitely be paying closer attention.

[Sikeliot]

As I understand it, there were migrations from East to the West. I discovered that my family originated from Messina and migrated to Agrigento around 1200 or so. The greeks, who were I guess Byzantines at that time? moved around the island between the different colonies. I'ts hard to tell, but what I have seen in my travels and from my own family that there is a real mix, some red heads, blues eyes light skinned, brown eyes dark skinned, a real mix no matter where you go on the island. I gather it use to be more notable historically but this has likely changed over time. I am by no way an expert, this is just my perspective. That being said, your assessment does seem reasonable based on where the inhabitants likely originated from. When I go back to Sicily I will definitely be paying closer attention.


What phenotypical differences do you notice between the people of Sicily and of Greece? I think that light pigmented people in both ethnicities look very different, with some Greeks looking Eastern European in a way not typical for Sicily.

[Akragas]

There are many phenotypical similarities between Southern Italians in general, and Greek. For the most part It is difficult for me to distinguish that much of a difference but for the most I would say there tend to be more Greeks with lighter skin then Southern Italians. And as far as I can tell there is no way to tell the difference between southern Italians for example, someone from Calabria, Sicily or Naples. From Naples south the genetic makeup of these people are very similar. I challenge anyone to pick out a person from Calabri, or Sicily from a group of Southern Italians you can't we look the same.

[aherne]

I think you tend to over-estimate the non-European component. Most Sicilians look European and as such, they would fit FAR better as Romanian than Tunisian.

Take this casting from central Sicily:
http://www.vivienna.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/agira-casting-Bellezze-di-Sicilia-2.jpg
http://www.vivienna.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/agira-casting-Bellezze-di-Sicilia-3.jpg
^ They could easily be Bulgarian. Only two would pass unnoticed in Tunisia, while pretty much all the rest would be assumed as tourists.

Teenagers from Enna:
http://www.anpas-sicilia.it/thumb.aspx?cartella=public/notizie&img=25082014_15_17_44.jpg&width=604
^ Once again, looking very Italian, but passing all across (Southern) Europe

[Ilma]

PALERMO and TRAPANI.

Palermo deserves its own section due to the variety of phenotypes, historical settlement diversity, and being the most populous part of the island. But I will include Trapani due to similar historical circumstances and that they neighbor.

The first historical settlement was by the Elymians, a group of unknown origin who are presumably from Anatolia. Genetic data would support this given the relatively high frequency of Caucasus-type haplogroup G on the paternal side in western Sicily. The Elymians founded Eryx (Erice), Segesta, and Entella, all of which would be later Hellenized.

Next came the Phoenicians from Lebanon, who founded the city of Palermo. They controlled the trade on the northwestern coast of the island, which would later be passed to their successors, the Carthaginians. The Phoenicians maintained good relations with the Elymians, while the Greeks did not due to their desire to expand across the entire island.

Moorish influence in the Middle Ages brought Muslims from North Africa and Syria as well as their culture to the western half of the island, and although they would later conquer all but Syracuse, their primary area of influence was in Palermo. Although most Moors were expelled, those who remained did assimilate and there is an approximately 6% influence on the paternal side of the gene pool from the Arabian Peninsula (J1) and NW Africa (North African E1b1b).

Normans conquered next, forcing out Muslims who refused to assimilate, and settling primarily in Palermo and northern Trapani. They repopulated several towns with people from Northern Italy as well as Calabria and Campania.

All of these groups, as well as the Greeks who settled, would have a genetic impact as well as phenotypical.


Common types include Levantine-influenced (Gracile and East) Meds, sometimes with Armenoid influence:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3589/3288662301_28c65ee53a_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3329/3289479760_30142f51f5_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5175/5418692840_862bf8aa88_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5259/5418087109_bef2604cba_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5051/5418086873_5985644d19_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5418086089_3d25c20450_m.jpg


Norid/Nordo-Med types that show Norman and/or northern Italian influence:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5418690030_11c2edbd81_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5215/5418085641_9af6b1ab1b_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5253/5418690650_d6e8d3014f_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5094/5418087535_b6b641cba9_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5097/5418692934_f2762d29d5_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/3289480134_fdc42e350d_m.jpg


Dinaro-East Med types who look Greek, who resemble the people of the Aegean islands:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3606/3288662677_c1f8ec6529_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3481/3289479176_06bce8a1a0_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3275/3289478764_cfc54c69a0_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3286/3288663413_583cb23077_m.jpg

And South-Med influenced Cromagnids who look vaguely "North African" -- a similar type is found in the Canary islands:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5057/5418087319_b15cf4d470_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5092/5418691866_066e667aa6_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5055/5418086939_8b22818a11_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5133/5418690956_03bbe9ac60_m.jpg



Overlapping groups: Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, Coastal NW Africans (Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco), Canarian Spaniards, islander and southern Greeks, Cypriots, Lebanese, northern Italians, and French.

Thanks a lot for your work and thanks from me to take time to talk about Norman imput in Sicilia !!! As a Normand I can tell you the Norid sample here reminds a lot common phenotypes we can find here in Normandy today.

[Sikeliot]

I think you tend to over-estimate the non-European component. Most Sicilians look European and as such, they would fit FAR better as Romanian than Tunisian.

Take this casting from central Sicily:
http://www.vivienna.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/agira-casting-Bellezze-di-Sicilia-2.jpg
http://www.vivienna.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/agira-casting-Bellezze-di-Sicilia-3.jpg
^ They could easily be Bulgarian. Only two would pass unnoticed in Tunisia, while pretty much all the rest would be assumed as tourists.

Tunisia might not be the best point of comparison as many of them have SSA input and more Cromagnid influence. But I can say confidently that Sicily has the highest post-Neolithic West Asian input and the lowest NE Euro/Baltic element in Europe for the most part.

My phenotype is not exotic for the island (you've seen me) and I am perceived as Middle Eastern but that might just be American ignorance. On dating apps, I get asked at least once a week if I am "Arabic" because some guy wants to know about my ancestry from my photo.

Of the women you posted, they probably fit best in the Aegean like in Kalymnos or Rhodes but I do think a number of them could pass as Armenian, Assyrian, and Lebanese, at least better than as Tunisian. If Romanians look like that, they have more West Asian input than I would have assumed. The difference between Sicilians and mainland Greeks is the NE European/BaltoSlavic input I think.

The phenotypes that could pass in Tunisia would be more likely found in western Sicily, not in Enna (see the last part of the Trapani photos, there are 4 men who IMO do look North African and I said that in the post). In fact, a y-dna study found that the people in Enna largely have Balkan y-dna, most likely from Greece.

[Alessio]

Tunisia might not be the best point of comparison as many of them have SSA input and more Cromagnid influence. But I can say confidently that Sicily has the highest post-Neolithic West Asian input and the lowest NE Euro/Baltic element in Europe for the most part.

My phenotype is not exotic for the island (you've seen me) and I am perceived as Middle Eastern but that might just be American ignorance. On dating apps, I get asked at least once a week if I am "Arabic" because some guy wants to know about my ancestry from my photo.

Of the women you posted, they probably fit best in the Aegean like in Kalymnos or Rhodes but I do think a number of them could pass as Armenian, Assyrian, and Lebanese, at least better than as Tunisian. If Romanians look like that, they have more West Asian input than I would have assumed. The difference between Sicilians and mainland Greeks is the NE European/BaltoSlavic input I think.

The phenotypes that could pass in Tunisia would be more likely found in western Sicily, not in Enna (see the last part of the Trapani photos, there are 4 men who IMO do look North African and I said that in the post). In fact, a y-dna study found that the people in Enna largely have Balkan y-dna, most likely from Greece.

It makes you straight again looking at these photo's, don't lie ;)

It's definitely ignorance on the part of the non Southern Euro descended Americans. I experience the same thing here in North Western Europe.

[Sikeliot]

It makes you straight again looking at these photo's, don't lie ;)

It's definitely ignorance on the part of the non Southern Euro descended Americans. I experience the same thing here in North Western Europe.

Well I do think our phenotypes are informed by some Middle Eastern influences because I never get taken for Iberian in real life for instance or even Greek (despite that being fairly close) but I think it is just interesting. I take it as a compliment.

[Alessio]

There are many phenotypical similarities between Southern Italians in general, and Greek. For the most part It is difficult for me to distinguish that much of a difference but for the most I would say there tend to be more Greeks with lighter skin then Southern Italians. And as far as I can tell there is no way to tell the difference between southern Italians for example, someone from Calabria, Sicily or Naples. From Naples south the genetic makeup of these people are very similar. I challenge anyone to pick out a person from Calabri, or Sicily from a group of Southern Italians you can't we look the same.

Well except some ''exceptions'' from Sicily I have personally encountered that look North African/Tunesian influenced.

[Sikeliot]

Well except some ''exceptions'' from Sicily I have personally encountered that look North African/Tunesian influenced.

I do think in groups there are differences. I think some people in Campania look transitional to central Italians when compared to the other two regions, and Sicily has a minority of North African types (more Tunisian and Egyptian looking rather than Moroccan, I think). With Calabria, the distinction is they have a near absence of anything Northern/Central/Eastern European looking and basically look like Cypriots.

But if you took a random individual from any of those places, unless they stood out significantly in one of the aforementioned ways, you will not be able to guess. I do, however, think people in Apulia and Lucania look different, in the sense that they look more Balkan.

[Alessio]

Well I do think our phenotypes are informed by some Middle Eastern influences because I never get taken for Iberian in real life for instance or even Greek (despite that being fairly close) but I think it is just interesting. I take it as a compliment.

I agree and our genetics speaks for itself, we're basically mostly Middle Eastern/neolithic farmer + some later West Asian influence and it explains the variation in phenotypes present in Southern Italy.

For some people I look extremely stereotype South Italian and for others a mix of (Germanic) European and Middle Eastern, or even Iranian. This all makes sense though.

[Sikeliot]

I agree and our genetics speaks for itself, we're basically mostly Middle Eastern/neolithic farmer + some later West Asian influence and it explains the variation in phenotypes present in Southern Italy.

For some people I look extremely stereotype South Italian and for others a mix of European and Middle Eastern, or even Iranian.

I almost always get Armenian, Lebanese, and Iranian as guesses in that order.

I think if an autosomal DNA study was performed around all of Sicily, you're going to find genetic differences among social classes also, and from town to town. I have seen two individuals from the same town in Ragusa province: one of them was close to the North Aegean islands and to central Greeks and to Abruzzo, while the other was so outlying that they were almost plotting in Cyprus. I expect an even more pronounced divergence in Palermo, because some people definitely have elevated continental European mixture while I have seen others who are not too different from North African Jews.

[Alessio]

I do think in groups there are differences. I think some people in Campania look transitional to central Italians when compared to the other two regions, and Sicily has a minority of North African types (more Tunisian and Egyptian looking rather than Moroccan, I think). With Calabria, the distinction is they have a near absence of anything Northern/Central/Eastern European looking and basically look like Cypriots.

But if you took a random individual from any of those places, unless they stood out significantly in one of the aforementioned ways, you will not be able to guess. I do, however, think people in Apulia and Lucania look different, in the sense that they look more Balkan.

With Sicily I do agree, only in case of Calabria not as much. I think there are noticable differences per comune and even families. You probably already know that cousin marriages were generally accepted in the south and that most villages didn't receive much input from outside, therefore the existence of the phenomenon named campanilismo. Some families have more West Asian looking types and some have more general South Euro types or even Central Euro types present in their family. A mix of these types is also possible in a lot of cases.

I do think that Calabria as a whole have more pseudo West Asian Med types/Cypriot than Campania but not as significant as you do.

[Sikeliot]

I do think that Calabria as a whole have more pseudo West Asian Med types/Cypriot than Campania but not as significant as you do.

I think if I had to group them together, I'd put Calabria with Sicily, Lucania with Apulia, and Campania on its own. Not that the latter doesn't overlap with the others but there is more diversity.

[Akragas]

I have in-laws from Naples and Calabria and when the families get together for events you can't distinguish between the Sicilians . Years ago when we first met you had to ask where is your family from in Italy you could not tell if they were Neapolitan, Sicilian or Calabrese. However, there are suttle cultural diffrences mostly in types of cuisine and reginal customs but we all look the same.

[Sikeliot]

I have in-laws from Naples and Calabria and when the families get together for events you can't distinguish between the Sicilians . Years ago when we first met you had to ask where is your family from in Italy you could not tell if they were Neapolitan, Sicilian or Calabrese. However, there are suttle cultural diffrences mostly in types of cuisine and reginal customs but we all look the same.

I do think though that there are some differences in different parts of Sicily. I think the most Greek-like people are around Syracuse and Ragusa, and I think some people in Palermo and Agrigento look somewhat Levantine.

[Enflamme]

I think you tend to over-estimate the non-European component. Most Sicilians look European and as such, they would fit FAR better as Romanian than Tunisian.

Take this casting from central Sicily:
http://www.vivienna.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/agira-casting-Bellezze-di-Sicilia-2.jpg
http://www.vivienna.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/agira-casting-Bellezze-di-Sicilia-3.jpg
^ They could easily be Bulgarian. Only two would pass unnoticed in Tunisia, while pretty much all the rest would be assumed as tourists.

Teenagers from Enna:
http://www.anpas-sicilia.it/thumb.aspx?cartella=public/notizie&img=25082014_15_17_44.jpg&width=604
^ Once again, looking very Italian, but passing all across (Southern) Europe

No aryan = no European!

http://upload.smileyswelove.com/uploads/6272/smiley-13433.gif

[Sikeliot]

No aryan = no European!

http://upload.smileyswelove.com/uploads/6272/smiley-13433.gif

Well what is clear is Sicilian DNA is mostly Neolithic West Asian and very low indigenous European/WHG/Indo European etc. But of course much of Southern Europe is the same way but the WHG and Indo-European is higher in most other places (including Greece, Spain, etc).

[Enflamme]

Where are Atlanto-Med types?

[Sikeliot]

Where are Atlanto-Med types?

I called them "Nordo-Med" instead. Atlanto-Med is not predominant in Sicily.

[Nassbean]

I think you tend to over-estimate the non-European component. Most Sicilians look European and as such, they would fit FAR better as Romanian than Tunisian.

Take this casting from central Sicily:
http://www.vivienna.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/agira-casting-Bellezze-di-Sicilia-2.jpg
http://www.vivienna.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/agira-casting-Bellezze-di-Sicilia-3.jpg
^ They could easily be Bulgarian. Only two would pass unnoticed in Tunisia, while pretty much all the rest would be assumed as tourists.

Teenagers from Enna:
http://www.anpas-sicilia.it/thumb.aspx?cartella=public/notizie&img=25082014_15_17_44.jpg&width=604
^ Once again, looking very Italian, but passing all across (Southern) Europe

Wtf actually more than two can pass unnoticed in tunisia. Here some tunisian women so you can compare :

https://i.imgur.com/p7MbDbH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Xehqgn4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HLx3Rmw.jpg

[Bigsaul]

Wtf actually more than two can pass unnoticed in tunisia. Here some tunisian women so you can compare :

https://i.imgur.com/p7MbDbH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Xehqgn4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HLx3Rmw.jpg

I've noticed in North Africa women tend to be considerably lighter and more "Europoid" looking than the men on average. Maybe 1 in 50 among Moroccan/Algerian etc. Men I see can pass as atypical in South Europe while among women this ratio is 1 in 5 I'd say

[Nassbean]

I've noticed in North Africa women tend to be considerably lighter and more "Europoid" looking than the men on average. Maybe 1 in 50 among Moroccan/Algerian etc. Men I see can pass as atypical in South Europe while among women this ratio is 1 in 5 I'd say

Yes actually it depends from which regions we're talking about but i'd say that moroccans are more homogeneous than their neighbours and I also invite you to take a look at all the MtDNAs that exist in north africa or maybe it's due to sexual selection who knows.

[Nico Nobrix]

It's very interesting to me, that even though Sicilians have one of the lowest (if not the lowest) levels of Atlantic/Baltic or any other classification of European DNA that is specifically not Mediteranian, yet you still wouldn't confuse any one of these pictures with anything but European white. It says something about the high levels of Caucasus/Middle Eastern in them...its white.

[Nico Nobrix]

I've noticed in North Africa women tend to be considerably lighter and more "Europoid" looking than the men on average. Maybe 1 in 50 among Moroccan/Algerian etc. Men I see can pass as atypical in South Europe while among women this ratio is 1 in 5 I'd say

This could be total speculation here, but it seems to me that the within a population, the native sex tends to retain within the same sex gene pool. For example in Iberia, I think the men rather than the women tend to look more central European. We know that Iberia saw massive central european migration into Iberia, the Celts, and they basically replaced the original male gene pool, which is why the Y dna between Portugal, Spain, France, England and Ireland are similar.

In the case of North Africans, you say the women tend to look more European, well in history the opposite happened with the gene pool. The Barbary pirate slave trade displaced a few million women from Europe and the slave women were absorbed into the North African population. Curious you say the women look more European, after you know that.