Fire Haired
10-06-2013, 09:19 AM
http://www.britam.org/picturesYair/Scythiancomb2.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=s6ER3ZgdNBYPdM&tbnid=5NThhJegduTlFM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britam.org%2FCamReaArmy.html&ei=ripRUovqJsm2yAG6sICwBA&psig=AFQjCNECfR_XNwMLOY3s-gnxyQcIxf03wA&ust=1381137368138188)
Indo Iranian and Tocharian are two Indo European languages their ancestral forms started to migrate out of Yamna culture in Russia deep into Asia at earliest 5,000ybp. I am trying to figure out basically what the mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color percentages of those people were to try to find their closest match in Europe today and possibly the exact area their ancestry originated. For mtDNA and Y DNA right now I am only going to count Caucasian haplogroups since they inter married with Mongliods so much in asia and their Mongliod mtDNA haplogroups are typical for Siberian, Mongolian, Hunnic, and Chinese samples we have from the Iron age so they almost definitely did not bring them from Russia. It is true that Mongliod mtDNA C surprisingly popular in Neolithic Ukraine cultures ancestral to Yamna but still it cant explain all their Mongliod mtDNA. I am also taking pretty much all Caucasian mtDNA found in Huns, Mongols, Siberians, and Chinese from the Iron age most are typical for Indo Iranians U2e, U4, U5a, H, T1, K. Except shockingly mid eastern U subclades U1, U3, and U7 are in Chinese and even Indo Iranian samples. This on my opinion definitely shows some type of contact with China or just people around China, Mongolia, and Siberia with Near eastern's probably around Pakistan. Hopefully can help explain Near eastern admixture inglobe13 in western China, Mongolia, and south Siberia that usually exceeds European admixture which would come from Indo Iranians and Tocharian's.
mtDNA=83
U=29 35%(U5=16(U5a=13(U5a1=9),U2=5(U2e=4(U2e1=1), U4=4(U4*=1), U*=1, U7=1, U1=1)
T=16 19.3%(T1=8(T1a=3), T3=3, T*=2, T2=1, T2a1b-T4=1)
H=16 19.3%(H?=7, H5=1, U2a1=1, H6=1, H2a1=1)
K=6 7.2%(K2b=1)
I=3 3.6%(I3=2)
J=3 3.6%(J1=2)
W=1 1.2%
H or U=3 3.6%
U5 or J=1 1.2%
Y DNA=19: R1a1=18(R1a1a=7), C(notC3)=1
Pigmentation from Genes
Skin color=8: fair to medium=8
Hair color=10: blonde-light brown=6, Brown=3, Dark Brown=1
eye color=22: blue or green=15, brown=7
With the 83 mtDNA samples I estimate on about what their mtDNA was is U=30-40%(U5a1=20%, U2e=5-10%, U4=5-10%), H=15-30%(mainly in order H6, H2, H1, H3, and H5), T=15-20%(T1=10-20%, T2=1-5%, T3=1-5%), J=1-10%(mainly J1 then probably Euro J1c), I=0.1-5%(at least some I3), W=0.1-5%. The U5a1, U2e, and U4 all are extremely popular in Mesolithic mtDNA in eastern Europe. And like I explain in Chronology of European mtDNA U5 would have come to Europe as U about 50,000-60,000ybp and developed into U5 while in Europe about 50,000ybp and U2 since it is in the oldest mtDNA sample in Europe 37,985 years old it would have arrived probably over 40,000ybp and developed into U2e. U4 is estimated as 25,000 years old and either originated in Europe or migrated to Europe 15,000-25,000ybp. The rest of their mtDNA is typical for farming Europeans in Neloithic age and all the ages after that. High amount of H then also good amount of T and the existence of I,W, and J.
But something different is how high T may have been in Indo Iranians and Tocherians 15-20% and that all may have been T1 almost all T in Ancient European mtDNA that has subclade identified is under subclade T2 same with modern Europeans. T1 most likely arrived into Europe from the Near east during the Neloithic and its high amount in Indo Iranians is unque and can give an idea of were exactly in Europe most of their ancestry originated. It is supringly low J is and that there is no X. The H which has been found in Paleoithic and Mesloithic Europe the subclades so far from Indo Iranians is H6(mainly in central asia and eastern Europe), H2(mainly in eastern Europe), and H5(mainly in the Near east) H6 and H2 make total sense since they originated in far eastern Europe.
With 19 y DNA samples they were definitely very heavily R1a1a specifically Indo Iranian and Tocharian subclade R1a1a1b2 Z93. The C(not C3) most likely is from Mongliod inter marriage. R1a1 pops up in multiple sites they spread it a ton in asia that is why it is one of the main Y DNA hg's of central Asia and Indo Iranian speakers. We only know for sure they spread R1a1a1b2 Z93 there is some evidence they spread R1b1a1 M73 and J2b but either way I would think they had around 90% or more Y DNA R1a1a1b2 Z93. But that does not really give an idea of were they originated by looking at high R1a Europeans, Because around 5,000ybp Yamna culture also expanded more west in Europe forming into Corded ware culture which spoke the ancestral language to Balto Slavic and spread R1a1a1b1 Z283 the main Y DNA haplogroup of eastern Europe close to 50% of total Y DNA. R1a1a M17 most likely originated and spread out of around Ukraine and Russia so that's all we can say about their Y DNA. Most of their ancestry may have been from a people R1a1a1b S224 Indo Europeans conquered.
With their hair and eye color it is obvious they were very light haired and eyed probably mainly. It is not nearly enough samples to get a perfect idea of their percentages but they definitely were in the same range as modern central, eastern, and northern Europeans. Probably around 40-60% fair hair and over 60% light eyes so I guess they would fit best with people around the Baltic sea, northwestern Russia, and Scandinavia but not really around the areas of Russia they most likely originated from. The hair color and eye color percentages match ancient descriptions of them by Chinese, Greek, and Roman writers and with some very light haired and eyed people that pop up in modern Indo Iranians speakers in the Near east and south Asia.
Out of 10 hair color samples red hair did not pop up but even for Irish would not be a surprise. 3,400 and 3,000 year old mummies in Tarim basin china did have red hair the 3,00 year old one was a man with brown head hair and red facial hair. The Budni a Scythian tribe in modern day Ukriane as all having bright red hair and today Ukriane has under 1% red hair. The Tocharian's were described by Chinese as being red and blonde haired and there is ancient Chinese art depicting Tocharian's as red haired. Red hair does pop up in modern day Indo Iranian speakers in the Near east(Origin and ancient history of red hair (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91491-Origin-and-ancient-History-of-red-hair)). Today red hair is kind of isolated in two parts of Europe western Europe and Volga Russia those are the only areas of Europe with 1% or more red hair. It seems the people who spoke the ancestral language to Indo Iranian and Tocharian had 1% or more red hair which maybe points to their ancestry mainly coming from around Volga Russia were red hair is 14% of the Udmurts.
Indo Iranian and Tocharian are two Indo European languages their ancestral forms started to migrate out of Yamna culture in Russia deep into Asia at earliest 5,000ybp. I am trying to figure out basically what the mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color percentages of those people were to try to find their closest match in Europe today and possibly the exact area their ancestry originated. For mtDNA and Y DNA right now I am only going to count Caucasian haplogroups since they inter married with Mongliods so much in asia and their Mongliod mtDNA haplogroups are typical for Siberian, Mongolian, Hunnic, and Chinese samples we have from the Iron age so they almost definitely did not bring them from Russia. It is true that Mongliod mtDNA C surprisingly popular in Neolithic Ukraine cultures ancestral to Yamna but still it cant explain all their Mongliod mtDNA. I am also taking pretty much all Caucasian mtDNA found in Huns, Mongols, Siberians, and Chinese from the Iron age most are typical for Indo Iranians U2e, U4, U5a, H, T1, K. Except shockingly mid eastern U subclades U1, U3, and U7 are in Chinese and even Indo Iranian samples. This on my opinion definitely shows some type of contact with China or just people around China, Mongolia, and Siberia with Near eastern's probably around Pakistan. Hopefully can help explain Near eastern admixture inglobe13 in western China, Mongolia, and south Siberia that usually exceeds European admixture which would come from Indo Iranians and Tocharian's.
mtDNA=83
U=29 35%(U5=16(U5a=13(U5a1=9),U2=5(U2e=4(U2e1=1), U4=4(U4*=1), U*=1, U7=1, U1=1)
T=16 19.3%(T1=8(T1a=3), T3=3, T*=2, T2=1, T2a1b-T4=1)
H=16 19.3%(H?=7, H5=1, U2a1=1, H6=1, H2a1=1)
K=6 7.2%(K2b=1)
I=3 3.6%(I3=2)
J=3 3.6%(J1=2)
W=1 1.2%
H or U=3 3.6%
U5 or J=1 1.2%
Y DNA=19: R1a1=18(R1a1a=7), C(notC3)=1
Pigmentation from Genes
Skin color=8: fair to medium=8
Hair color=10: blonde-light brown=6, Brown=3, Dark Brown=1
eye color=22: blue or green=15, brown=7
With the 83 mtDNA samples I estimate on about what their mtDNA was is U=30-40%(U5a1=20%, U2e=5-10%, U4=5-10%), H=15-30%(mainly in order H6, H2, H1, H3, and H5), T=15-20%(T1=10-20%, T2=1-5%, T3=1-5%), J=1-10%(mainly J1 then probably Euro J1c), I=0.1-5%(at least some I3), W=0.1-5%. The U5a1, U2e, and U4 all are extremely popular in Mesolithic mtDNA in eastern Europe. And like I explain in Chronology of European mtDNA U5 would have come to Europe as U about 50,000-60,000ybp and developed into U5 while in Europe about 50,000ybp and U2 since it is in the oldest mtDNA sample in Europe 37,985 years old it would have arrived probably over 40,000ybp and developed into U2e. U4 is estimated as 25,000 years old and either originated in Europe or migrated to Europe 15,000-25,000ybp. The rest of their mtDNA is typical for farming Europeans in Neloithic age and all the ages after that. High amount of H then also good amount of T and the existence of I,W, and J.
But something different is how high T may have been in Indo Iranians and Tocherians 15-20% and that all may have been T1 almost all T in Ancient European mtDNA that has subclade identified is under subclade T2 same with modern Europeans. T1 most likely arrived into Europe from the Near east during the Neloithic and its high amount in Indo Iranians is unque and can give an idea of were exactly in Europe most of their ancestry originated. It is supringly low J is and that there is no X. The H which has been found in Paleoithic and Mesloithic Europe the subclades so far from Indo Iranians is H6(mainly in central asia and eastern Europe), H2(mainly in eastern Europe), and H5(mainly in the Near east) H6 and H2 make total sense since they originated in far eastern Europe.
With 19 y DNA samples they were definitely very heavily R1a1a specifically Indo Iranian and Tocharian subclade R1a1a1b2 Z93. The C(not C3) most likely is from Mongliod inter marriage. R1a1 pops up in multiple sites they spread it a ton in asia that is why it is one of the main Y DNA hg's of central Asia and Indo Iranian speakers. We only know for sure they spread R1a1a1b2 Z93 there is some evidence they spread R1b1a1 M73 and J2b but either way I would think they had around 90% or more Y DNA R1a1a1b2 Z93. But that does not really give an idea of were they originated by looking at high R1a Europeans, Because around 5,000ybp Yamna culture also expanded more west in Europe forming into Corded ware culture which spoke the ancestral language to Balto Slavic and spread R1a1a1b1 Z283 the main Y DNA haplogroup of eastern Europe close to 50% of total Y DNA. R1a1a M17 most likely originated and spread out of around Ukraine and Russia so that's all we can say about their Y DNA. Most of their ancestry may have been from a people R1a1a1b S224 Indo Europeans conquered.
With their hair and eye color it is obvious they were very light haired and eyed probably mainly. It is not nearly enough samples to get a perfect idea of their percentages but they definitely were in the same range as modern central, eastern, and northern Europeans. Probably around 40-60% fair hair and over 60% light eyes so I guess they would fit best with people around the Baltic sea, northwestern Russia, and Scandinavia but not really around the areas of Russia they most likely originated from. The hair color and eye color percentages match ancient descriptions of them by Chinese, Greek, and Roman writers and with some very light haired and eyed people that pop up in modern Indo Iranians speakers in the Near east and south Asia.
Out of 10 hair color samples red hair did not pop up but even for Irish would not be a surprise. 3,400 and 3,000 year old mummies in Tarim basin china did have red hair the 3,00 year old one was a man with brown head hair and red facial hair. The Budni a Scythian tribe in modern day Ukriane as all having bright red hair and today Ukriane has under 1% red hair. The Tocharian's were described by Chinese as being red and blonde haired and there is ancient Chinese art depicting Tocharian's as red haired. Red hair does pop up in modern day Indo Iranian speakers in the Near east(Origin and ancient history of red hair (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91491-Origin-and-ancient-History-of-red-hair)). Today red hair is kind of isolated in two parts of Europe western Europe and Volga Russia those are the only areas of Europe with 1% or more red hair. It seems the people who spoke the ancestral language to Indo Iranian and Tocharian had 1% or more red hair which maybe points to their ancestry mainly coming from around Volga Russia were red hair is 14% of the Udmurts.