Genetic drift, founder effect, bottlenecks, and inbred populations

[Atlantic Islander]

I noticed there isn't a thread about this, so yeah - discuss.

[Stormer99]

Well in not all cases are they "inbred" they are just genetically more isolated.

The Sardinians are not inbred but they were isolated from other populations so there was much less mixture from other sources. They are the purest Mediterranean people. They form their own separated cluster because of being more isolated and not a part of the general gradient.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

They are more inbred the smaller the population. Changes tend to "drift" out as well, or else become part of the whole group.

The only thing to realize is that drift basically doesn't exist in large populations. So instead of drifting you just agglutinate.

I don't think drift matters much really. It's a possibility but it's not the source of evolution, if anything it's anti-evolution because it kills off most selective changes (in large populations this will happen much less often).

[Black Wolf]

Actually I have evidence of this in my own genome. I have quite a few more Finnish IBD chromosome matches at the 4gp 5cM threshold 23andme on Ancestry Finder than those of the other ethnic groups that make up my ancestry such as British, Irish and Italian even though I am only 25% Finnish.

[Harkonnen]

Actually I have evidence of this in my own genome. I have quite a few more Finnish IBD chromosome matches at the 4gp 5cM threshold 23andme on Ancestry Finder than those of the other ethnic groups that make up my ancestry such as British, Irish and Italian even though I am only 25% Finnish.

How many times does it have to be said to you before you get it:

FINNS ARE NOT INBRED

[Graham]

Depends what you mean by Inbred. It's mainly when a population of people, can all relate back to a smaller populations, without any interference. That you get the drift.

[Tropico]

I think someone posted a good study of the founder effect in Puerto Rico regarding our Spanish ancestry but ABF got shut down soon after. :/

[Jackson]

I think it's mainly a matter of outside sources. If population A isn't subject to the same influences as population B, the two populations will separate over time unless they regularly mix.

[Tropico]

Reconstructing the Population Genetic History of the Caribbean (http://arxiv.org/pdf/1306.0558.pdf)
Great article on Founder Effect of Puerto Ricans and possible interbreeding of some areas do to such a small base population.

[Hadouken]

Well in not all cases are they "inbred" they are just genetically more isolated.

The Sardinians are not inbred but they were isolated from other populations so there was much less mixture from other sources. They are the purest Mediterranean people. They form their own separated cluster because of being more isolated and not a part of the general gradient.

and they are one of the most beautiful people in the world imo (judging from pics)

[Roy]

Actually I have evidence of this in my own genome. I have quite a few more Finnish IBD chromosome matches at the 4gp 5cM threshold 23andme on Ancestry Finder than those of the other ethnic groups that make up my ancestry such as British, Irish and Italian even though I am only 25% Finnish.

Finnish people have limited genetic pool with strong founder effects on it (existence of genetic illnesses which are present virtually only among them).

[Black Wolf]

How many times does it have to be said to you before you get it:

FINNS ARE NOT INBRED

Holy fuck buddy take it easy over there...I never said that THEY ARE INBRED! I just mentioned my results....BTW what the hell explains my results then huh?

[Peikko]

Finnish people have limited genetic pool with strong founder effects on it (existence of genetic illnesses which are present virtually only among them).
Finns also have wide genetic variance. The genetic distance between two Finns can be bigger than between a German and a Spaniard. That's because "Finns" as an ethnic group actually consist of multiple different nations.

[Harkonnen]

Hey MrMr. It is better that you do not speak about stuff you know nothing about, ok.

[Peikko]

Hey MrMr. It is better that you do not speak about stuff you know nothing about, ok.

Right back at ya.

[Harkonnen]

So you honestly believe that genetic difference between 2 Finns from 2 different parts of the nation is bigger than that between a German & a Spaniard? OK.

[Peikko]

So you honestly believe that genetic difference between 2 Finns from 2 different parts of the nation is bigger than that between a German & a Spaniard? OK.
Well, Spaniards could be a bit far fetched.

[Graham]

The Iberians do actually drift off from Central Europe on many, charts. And the Basques especially.

[Harkonnen]

Genetic distance means jackshit (in this case at least). It is how they behave on plots that count for something if nothing. & all Finns behave more or less the same on plots.

[sevruk]

How many times does it have to be said to you before you get it:

FINNS ARE NOT INBRED

there are some on this forum

[Kalitas]

If I recall correctly, Icelanders are one of the most homogeneous Caucasian populations, since they've been isolated from continental Europe for hundred of years. A lot of genetic studies have been made on them.
I reckon Hardy-Weinberg's laws would apply pretty well on them

[Roy]

Finns also have wide genetic variance. The genetic distance between two Finns can be bigger than between a German and a Spaniard. That's because "Finns" as an ethnic group actually consist of multiple different nations.

Yes you're right. I remember seeing some graph in which South Finn was closer to Pole than to Finn from Northern Finland. That's like

[Harkonnen]

Yes you're right. I remember seeing some graph in which South Finn was closer to Pole than to Finn from Northern Finland.

Exactly you nailed my point about the unreliability of genetic plots. The same way the genetic distance between Finns and Poles was smaller on some chart, than between Finns and some balt folk. In no way, can that be true. Stop bullshitting yourself.

[Graham]

Orcadians are quite a close bunch. Islanders. :P

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/11/roh1.png

[Prisoner Of Ice]

How many times does it have to be said to you before you get it:

FINNS ARE NOT INBRED

You are not the brightest I guess, but try to stop with your constant dumb outbursts. He means local population must be inbred for those features.

Since recombination rate for finns is low and yes finns actually are more homongenous than english in the first place, that could be explanation anyway.

[Black Wolf]

There has got to be some good explanation out there why I match Finns from all over Finland better on 23andme's Ancestry Finder feature than I do either Irish/Brits or Italians at the 5cM 4gp threshold.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

There has got to be some good explanation out there why I match Finns from all over Finland better on 23andme's Ancestry Finder feature than I do either Irish/Brits or Italians at the 5cM 4gp threshold.

Finnish recombination rate is extremely low. So that means you might end up with higher amount of finnish DNA than your other mixes. Typically woman donates more anyway, but for finnish woman it could be quite a bit. 70/30?

Also, like I said, they are more homogenous. So you are more likely to get the "real" finnish dna out of them instead of random background crap.

[Black Wolf]

Finnish recombination rate is extremely low. So that means you might end up with higher amount of finnish DNA than your other mixes. Typically woman donates more anyway, but for finnish woman it could be quite a bit. 70/30?

Also, like I said, they are more homogenous. So you are more likely to get the "real" finnish dna out of them instead of random background crap.

Why would Finnish recombination rate be different than that of other Europeans though?...Also what made Finns so homogenous genetically?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Why would Finnish recombination rate be different than that of other Europeans though?...Also what made Finns so homogenous genetically?

Finnland is cut off from the rest of the world by the mountains so it has less outside geneflow.

Recombination rate is like a bet your genes take, as to how genetically adapted to your environment you are. The more adapted you are and the more complex the creature, the lower the recombination rate. Bees have about 17x higher recombination rate. Kenyans have about 2x higher recombination rate than average. Finns have the least recombination rate.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Depends what you mean by Inbred. It's mainly when a population of people, can all relate back to a smaller populations, without any interference. That you get the drift.

Then genetically isolated populations would be by definition inbred. So anyone arguing otherwise, is engaging in a semantics game.

[Black Wolf]

Then genetically isolated populations would be by definition inbred. So anyone arguing otherwise, is engaging in a semantics game.

Yup...A lot of people seem to have a problem with this though and try to think up crazy scenarios to try and explain it when the answer is really quite simple.

[Harkonnen]

Then genetically isolated populations would be by definition inbred. So anyone arguing otherwise, is engaging in a semantics game.

No

By definition inbred means that you are fucking your cousins or your sisters. In no way can you make a claim that genetically isolated small populations would automatically perform such practices. You can tell inbreeding from the length of ROH segments. You are not going to find these extremely long ROH sequences (common in West & South Asians where cousin marriages are a custom) among Finns as cousin marriages are not practiced here.


Yup...A lot of people seem to have a problem with this though and try to think up crazy scenarios to try and explain it when the answer is really quite simple.

Blaa Blaa Blaa

[Black Wolf]

No

By definition inbred means that you are fucking your cousins or your sisters. In no way can you make a claim that genetically isolated small populations would automatically perform such practices. You can tell inbreeding from the length of ROH segments. You are not going to find these extremely long ROH sequences (common in West & South Asians where cousin marriages are a custom) among Finns as cousin marriages are not practiced here.



Blaa Blaa Blaa


You seem to be filled with blaaa blaaa and more blaaa.....I have my stance on this topic and you have yours which is fucked up.

[Dombra]

stfu hillbilly. Finns simply has never practiced inbreeding unlike other cultures. Fins are pure unlike other populations whom suffered from rape nonstop

[Hweinlant]

There has got to be some good explanation out there why I match Finns from all over Finland better on 23andme's Ancestry Finder feature than I do either Irish/Brits or Italians at the 5cM 4gp threshold.

There has been two major founder effects. The first one is actually "the origin of the modern Finns". That took place about 2.000 years ago, on the southern and western river valleys of Finland. Initially the number of the founders wasnt very high. These people are basically ancestors for all modern Finns (also for those with later foreign admixes). Second major founder effect took place in the forests of eastern Finland, around year 1500. This was enabled primary by new technology which allowed slash&burn farming in Taiga-forests. This new technology was embraced by the government. Pioneer settlement into wilderness, turning it to taxable farmland was encouraged. New farming method also created large harvests (much bigger than what you got from normal field-farming at the time), which allowed the population to grow exponentially in just few generations. Now , all Finns share ancestry with this exponentially-growing pioneer posse as well, just in different proportions. Some share it through common ancestors, some being directly derived from them (the so-called genetic east Finns) or combination of both.

[MfA_]

Yup...A lot of people seem to have a problem with this though and try to think up crazy scenarios to try and explain it when the answer is really quite simple.

I ran my Finnish samples through GEDmatch's ''Are your parents related?'' tool, This is what I got; you see out of 40 samples only 11 is scored 0 while most are below 10cM and a few are at the level of 5th cousin..


Since you inherit half of your DNA from each of your parents, it stands to reason that large blocks of SNPs where both alleles are the same would be an indication that your parents each inherited that block from the same ancestor. These are called 'Runs of Homozygosity' (ROH). There are other utilities available that look for ROH for other purposes, but this analysis is specifically aimed at determining how closely related your parents might be.

Sibling 2350 cM
Half Sibling 1600 cM
First Cousin 800 cM
Second Cousin 200 cM
Third Cousin 100 cM
Fourth Cousin 50 cM
Fifth Cousin 25 cM


F209161 8.73 cM
M123205 11.6045 cM
F214444 6.3027 cM
M100907 0 cM
M005142 0 cM
M154319 0 cM
M231239 2.362 cM
M083656 0 cM
M862553 5.242 cM
M123920 0 cM
F244602 5.1092 cM
F211551 33.7411 cM
FN86056 4.8019 cM
M161721 2.17 cM
M125208 3.0356 cM
F232501 1.513 cM
F159197 0 cM
M115209 7.437 cM
M181708 4.5908 cM
F187644 12.0063 cM
M025308 1.9407 cM
F121192 10.205 cM
F263839 27.55 cM
F132818 7.5634 cM
M034927 0 cM
M142653 31.58424 cM
M195854 10.17 cM
F115827 7.46006 cM
F214981 0 cM
F210810 5.91 cM
M102520 0 cM
M102247 0 cM
F91729 15.289 cM
F210909 45.18833 cM
M585239 6.008 cM
M112509 0 cM
F165862 16.0589 cM
F79376 0.3915 cM
M192000 9.6404 cM
M155053 9.6404 cM

[Black Wolf]

stfu hillbilly. Finns simply has never practiced inbreeding unlike other cultures. Fins are pure unlike other populations whom suffered from rape nonstop

You talking to me bitch?

[Harkonnen]

You seem to be filled with blaaa blaaa and more blaaa.....I have my stance on this topic and you have yours which is fucked up.

I highlighted you the inbred part. So maybe you finally get it.


The human genome is characterised by many runs of homozygous genotypes, where identical haplotypes were inherited from each parent. The length of each run is determined partly by the number of generations since the common ancestor: offspring of cousin marriages have long runs of homozygosity (ROH), while the numerous shorter tracts relate to shared ancestry tens and hundreds of generations ago. Human populations have experienced a wide range of demographic histories and hold diverse cultural attitudes to consanguinity. In a global population dataset, genome-wide analysis of long and shorter ROH allows categorisation of the mainly indigenous populations sampled here into four major groups in which the majority of the population are inferred to have: (a) recent parental relatedness (south and west Asians); (b) shared parental ancestry arising hundreds to thousands of years ago through long term isolation and restricted effective population size (Ne), but little recent inbreeding (Oceanians); (c) both ancient and recent parental relatedness (Native Americans); and (d) only the background level of shared ancestry relating to continental Ne (predominantly urban Europeans and East Asians; lowest of all in sub-Saharan African agriculturalists), and the occasional cryptically inbred individual. Moreover, individuals can be positioned along axes representing this demographic historic space. Long runs of homozygosity are therefore a globally widespread and under-appreciated characteristic of our genomes, which record past consanguinity and population isolation and provide a distinctive record of the demographic history of an individual's ancestors. Individual ROH measures will also allow quantification of the disease risk arising from polygenic recessive effects.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013996

[Black Wolf]

There has been two major founder effects. The first one is actually "the origin of the modern Finns". That took place about 2.000 years ago, on the southern and western river valleys of Finland. Initially the number of the founders wasnt very high. These people are basically ancestors for all modern Finns (also for those with later foreign admixes). Second major founder effect took place in the forests of eastern Finland, around year 1500. This was enabled primary by new technology which allowed slash&burn farming in Taiga-forests. This new technology was embraced by the government. Pioneer settlement into wilderness, turning it to taxable farmland was encouraged. New farming method also created large harvests (much bigger than what you got from normal field-farming at the time), which allowed the population to grow exponentially in just few generations. Now , all Finns share ancestry with this exponentially-growing pioneer posse as well, just in different proportions. Some share it through common ancestors, some being directly derived from them (the so-called genetic east Finns) or combination of both.

So which of these founder effects am I seeing mostly in my genome then? Remember I am only 25% Finnish but I match Finns from all over Finland quite strongly at the 5cM 4gp threshold on 23andme's Ancestry Finder and as far as I know my Finnish ancestors came from West and South Finland. They all came from the Ikaalinen, Isojoki and Hausjarvi areas.

[Black Wolf]

I ran my Finnish samples through GEDmatch's ''Are your parents related?'' tool, This is what I got; you see out of 40 samples only 11 is scored 0 while most are below 10cM and a few are at the level of 5th cousin..



Sibling 2350 cM
Half Sibling 1600 cM
First Cousin 800 cM
Second Cousin 200 cM
Third Cousin 100 cM
Fourth Cousin 50 cM
Fifth Cousin 25 cM


F209161 8.73 cM
M123205 11.6045 cM
F214444 6.3027 cM
M100907 0 cM
M005142 0 cM
M154319 0 cM
M231239 2.362 cM
M083656 0 cM
M862553 5.242 cM
M123920 0 cM
F244602 5.1092 cM
F211551 33.7411 cM
FN86056 4.8019 cM
M161721 2.17 cM
M125208 3.0356 cM
F232501 1.513 cM
F159197 0 cM
M115209 7.437 cM
M181708 4.5908 cM
F187644 12.0063 cM
M025308 1.9407 cM
F121192 10.205 cM
F263839 27.55 cM
F132818 7.5634 cM
M034927 0 cM
M142653 31.58424 cM
M195854 10.17 cM
F115827 7.46006 cM
F214981 0 cM
F210810 5.91 cM
M102520 0 cM
M102247 0 cM
F91729 15.289 cM
F210909 45.18833 cM
M585239 6.008 cM
M112509 0 cM
F165862 16.0589 cM
F79376 0.3915 cM
M192000 9.6404 cM
M155053 9.6404 cM

So they are all pretty much distantly related then? Is that what that means?

[Black Wolf]

I highlighted you the inbred part. So maybe you finally get it.



http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013996

Unfortunately it seems you will never get it or more like accept the fact that Finns have gone through founder effects.

[Atlantic Islander]

Why does this subject anger people?

[Black Wolf]

Why does this subject anger people?

Because some are unfortunately insecure about it.

[Harkonnen]

Unfortunately it seems you will never get it or more like accept the fact that Finns have gone through founder effects.

Yes and what what? What has that has to do with inbreading? Eastern Finns are more homozygous and have gone Xtra founder effects (!!blimey). Yet western Finns are more inbred than East Finns. And by that I don't mean that they would be truly inbred population like some mid easteners fex. Just going by numbers.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Why does this subject anger people?

Because they are inbred.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Yes and what what? What has that has to do with inbreading? Eastern Finns are more homozygous and have gone Xtra founder effects (!!blimey). Yet western Finns are more inbred than East Finns.

What a clown you are. Inbred doesn't mean you have to fuck your cousin. You are more inbred, deal with it.

[Black Wolf]

Yes and what what? What has that has to do with inbreading? Eastern Finns are more homozygous and have gone Xtra founder effects (!!blimey). Yet western Finns are more inbred than East Finns. And by that I don't mean that they would be truly inbred population like some mid easteners fex. Just going by numbers.

A quote from Polako who knows a lot about how genetics work....``Finns are the Ashkeanazi Jews of the North.``

[Black Wolf]

What a clown you are. Inbred doesn't mean you have to fuck your cousin. You are more inbred, deal with it.

Well said.

[Harkonnen]

What a clown you are. Inbred doesn't mean you have to fuck your cousin. You are more inbred, deal with it.

Yeah you can also fuck your inbred half-brother Mr Jaxman, but that's not really my business, is it. Filthy inbreds..

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Yeah you can also fuck your inbred half-brother Mr Jaxman, but that's not really my business, is it. Filthy inbreds..

You are an imbecile and don't even have slightly clue what you are talking about you stupid fuck. You come into discussion about genetics and go crazy because you don't understand inbred is a genetic term with a real meaning and not just a comment on your personal antics with your sister, but I guess it struck a nerve. Truth hurts, eh? There's a lot of incredibly stupid fucks who talk nonsense about topics they don't have the bare facts on but you really take the cake. I would knock your teeth out this second if your stupid cunt face were in my sight.

You're still smarter than most finns, though :lol:

[Harkonnen]

A quote from Polako who knows a lot about how genetics work....``Finns are the Ashkeanazi Jews of the North.``

He ment that we're pretty smart. :cool:

[Atlantic Islander]

No name calling in my thread.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I feel the same way man I would beat the living shit out of this queer!

Not joking about finns either, every stupidest jackass on internet always turns out to be a finn. Won't be surprised if this guy is on every forum saying stupid stuff. I doubt he's say this shit to you in real life, you are pretty ripped. Me neither.

[Black Wolf]

No name calling in my thread.

Okay sorry but the guy is messed up.

[Black Wolf]

Not joking about finns either, every stupidest jackass on internet always turns out to be a finn. Won't be surprised if this guy is on every forum saying stupid stuff. I doubt he's say this shit to you in real life, you are pretty ripped. Me neither.

Unfortunately there are quite a few who are pretty moronic. But I am still proud and interested in my own Finnish roots. I am just not a jerk is all lol....I doubt he would say anything to me in real life as well man...Doubt he would say anything to you either.

[Harkonnen]

Hey boys I heard inbreeding leads to mental retardation wink wink

[Black Wolf]

Hey boys I heard inbreeding leads to mental retardation wink wink

It sure did in your case.

[Harkonnen]

I think you boys should post naked pics of your bodies, so we can see which one is more ripped.

[Atlantic Islander]

I think you boys should post naked pics of your bodies, so we can see which one is more ripped.

Get out of this thread if you are not going to contribute anything of value.

[Harkonnen]

And where's my apology?

[Black Wolf]

I think you boys should post naked pics of your bodies, so we can see which one is more ripped.

You would like that eh?...Sick individual you are.

[Black Wolf]

And where's my apology?

You don`t get one.

[Harkonnen]

You don`t get one.

Nah she's just playing hard to get. I will get my mines :)

[Prisoner Of Ice]

And where's my apology?

Buy me a plane ticket to come see you and I will give you an apology in person.

[Jaska]

Relax, guys.
Inbreeding and founder effect are different things. Inbreeding is seen in the great amount of long (> 10 Mb) ROH's, while the founder effect (small amount of "original" ancestors) is seen in the great amount of short (< 1,5 Mb) ROH's.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013996

The greater the distance from Africa, the clearer the founder effect.

Finns are not inbred, although they have gone through the founder effect, just like all the other northern populations.

P.S. Why the message goes so narrow?

[Harkonnen]

Exactly Jaska. I tried to tell this to these boys, but they would not listen. There is a big difference between being purebred and being inbred. Now let's wait for awhile, drink coffee & wine, and see whether they try to beat you up too. They're ripped.

(My advice: don't buy them a plane ticket)

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Founder effect and inbreeding are different. Homogenousness and inbreeding are the same. I breed plants, so I am not guessing, I know.

Thinking inbred population (like royals) means there was sister boning = serious retardation. And if you didn't believe I was saying that you would not have gone ape you would have said what he said. You'd still be wrong, but it's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about since you just spam out dumb statements at an alarming rate, so this is nothing new for you.

[Graham]

Mucking about with the PCA charts. Something should be noted. Is that populations can drift off. If a population has something unique to it. Say a European population with Asian or North African. But we don't have any actual Asians or N.Africans on the chart. It would push people to the end of the charts.


So it's not always about pure, or inbred or whatnot. Anyway my opinion.

[Harkonnen]

Mucking about with the PCA charts. Something should be noted. Is that populations can drift off. If a population has something unique to it. Say a European population with Asian or North African. But we don't have any actual Asians or N.Africans on the chart. It would push people to the end of the charts.


So it's not always about pure, or inbred or whatnot. Anyway my opinion.

Actually no. There's an interesting phenomenon that when the Asian samples are removed from the charts Russians whamblam got sucked among the main Euro cluster bunch whilst Finns position remained the same. The same happened with the Bronze age Danes, with Asians they clustered with Finns, without them all was lost.

[Anglojew]

Bottleneck populations develop superpowers like Ashkenazi Jews became genii*

*Note; Geniuses is the form of the word lesser mortals would use.

[Harkonnen]

Actually not that far from the truth. You often hear talk about "the Finnish national disease heritage" which btw as has been proved already is not because of inbreeding but because of isolation on closed societies. But there is also another side to that as Finns are known to either lack completely or are very rare on diseases common in other parts of Europe. This is because genetic drifting can just as well cause the disappearance of harmful alleles as is the other way round, it's all just a game of chance.

[Peikko]

Finns in general are far from inbred. A kid with an East and West Finn parents could even be considered a race mix. But some small rural villages are definitely inbred, there's no doubt about it.

[Atlantic Islander]

...

[Albion]

Finns also have wide genetic variance. The genetic distance between two Finns can be bigger than between a German and a Spaniard. That's because "Finns" as an ethnic group actually consist of multiple different nations.

Weird. Finns look really homogeneous to outsiders.

[Atlantic Islander]

HLA class I and II polymorphisms in Azores show different settlements in Oriental and Central islands.

Human leucocyte antigen-A, -B, -Cw, -DRB1, -DQA1 and -DQB1 polymorphisms were examined in the Azorean population. The data were obtained at high-resolution level, using polymerase chain reaction (PCR) with sequence-specific primer, PCR-sequence-specific oligonucleotides and sequence-based typing. The most frequent allele in each locus was: A*0201 (24.5%), B*510101 (9.8%), Cw*0401 (14.8%), DRB1*070101 (18.3%), DQA1*0201 (17.4%) and DQB1*0301 (19.4%). The predominant extended haplotype was A*0202-B*1503-Cw*0202-DRB1*090102-DQA1*0303- DQB1*0202 (1.9%), which was found to be absent in the Portuguese mainland. The present study corroborates historical sources that say the Azores were populated not only by Portuguese but also by other Europeans, mostly Flemish people. Despite dendrogram analysis showing some remote Asian genetic affinities, the lack of specific alleles and haplotypes from those populations does not allow us to conclude for direct influence. Haplotype and allele frequencies in Azores show no homogeneous distribution between Oriental and Central islands of this archipelago. The Oriental islands harbour several haplotypes already found in mainland Portugal and identified as Mediterranean and European. The Central group of islands on the contrary clearly shows an influence of north Europeans (most probably derived from a well-documented Flemish settlement), with much less affinity to mainland Portugal.

Genetic structure of the Azores Islands: a study using 15 autosomal short tandem repeat loci.

The Azores archipelago (Portugal), located in the Atlantic Ocean, 1,500 km from the European mainland, is formed by nine islands of volcanic origin. The relative position of these islands allows the definition of three geographical groups: Eastern, Central and Western. Previous studies of the Azores using Short Tandem Repeats (STRs) have highlighted differences in the frequencies of several loci, when compared to Mainland Portugal or Madeira Island. Furthermore, linkage disequilibrium (LD), described for Azorean samples has been tentatively explained as reflecting the presence of genetic sub-structuring in the archipelago. To provide information concerning the genetic profile of the Azores Islands and to evaluate the presence of substructuring we have determined the allelic frequencies of 15 autosomal STR loci, using the AmpFlSTR Identifiler Kit, in representative samples from the Azorean Islands. Either considering the Azores as a whole, or analysing by island all the loci were in conformity with Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium. Average gene diversity ranged from 0.7669 in Corvo to 0.7972 in Terceira Island. Allelic independence between loci, tested for the global sample, detected significant LD (after correction for multiple tests) for pairs D21S11/D7S820 and D3S1358/D5S818. The exact test of population differentiation, combining the information of the 15 markers analysed, revealed significant differences between the three groups of islands, and between islands. Inter-island analysis reinforces the previous data that suggested the existence of sub-structuring in the Azores archipelago. Moreover, the data generated by this study can be used in a future forensic genetic database of the Azores after the appropriate enlacement of sample size by island, preventing, in that way, misinterpretations caused by population substructuring and small sample sizes.

Genetic profiling of the Azores Islands (Portugal): data from 10 X-chromosome STRs.

The populations from the Azores islands have been the target of several genetic studies, using data derived from monoparental and recombining genetic systems. These studies have provided a complex picture of the genetic landscape of the three groups of Azorean islands, and further data are required to assess its genetic profile. We present a study of the polymorphism in 10 X-chromosome STR loci (DSXS8378, DXS9898, DXS7133, GATA31E08, GATA172D05, DXS7423, DXS6809, DXS7132, DXS9902, DXS6789) conducted on a total of 304 chromosomes (97 females and 110 males) of unrelated individuals with Azorean ancestry. Average gene diversity was 74.47%, ranging from 66.21% (DXS7133) to 81.19% (GATA172D05). No shared haplotypes were found. Genotype frequencies among females displayed conformity with Hardy-Weinberg expectations for all loci. Pairwise linkage disequilibrium tests did not reveal evidences of association between the studied markers. Significant differences in allelic frequencies between the Western and the Eastern group of islands are in agreement with previous results from mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome studies, providing further evidence that the Azores cannot be considered an homogeneous population. Moreover, differences between the Western group and the North of Portugal are also reported, supporting the pertinence of a specific database for the Azores populations, on what concerns the genetic markers analyzed.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Actually not that far from the truth. You often hear talk about "the Finnish national disease heritage" which btw as has been proved already is not because of inbreeding but because of isolation on closed societies.

They're the same thing you tard. Inred doesn't always mean sister fucking. Thoroughbred horses are inbred like mad but they don't usually have cousin sex.

[Argang]

Founder effects in isolated populations show up as homozygosity in genome and can be picked up in tools that measure it like gedmatch's "are your parents related"-tool. MfA_ posted Finnish results already (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?98176-Genetic-drift-founder-effect-bottlenecks-and-inbred-populations/page4&p=2015278#post2015278).


Sibling 2350 cM
Half Sibling 1600 cM
First Cousin 800 cM
Second Cousin 200 cM
Third Cousin 100 cM
Fourth Cousin 50 cM
Fifth Cousin 25 cM

Generally, when the Largest Single-Block Genetic Distance is less than 1, it can be assumed that no relationship exists. If the Largest Single-Block Genetic Distance is greater than 10, then the relationship is probably within the past few generations.

Here's some other results that cover a range below "Fifth Cousin" line.
http://oi43.tinypic.com/2hs6v13.jpg
From left to right: yours truly, northern russian, western russian, ashkenazi jew from US.

[Peikko]

Weird. Finns look really homogeneous to outsiders.
To me Finns don't look homogeneous at all. Some of them look Germanic, some look lappid and some look Eastern European.


They're the same thing you tard. Inred doesn't always mean sister fucking. Thoroughbred horses are inbred like mad but they don't usually have cousin sex.
They're not the same thing. Even much smaller populations than Finland, like Faroese, aren't inbred. I once read that in Iceland people have to check that they are not closely related when dating someone due to a very small genepool, but they are still around 300 000 people. Finland is 5,5 million, not much but certainly inbred.

People also forget, that Eastern Finns and Western Finns used to be separated populations until very recently and it really shows in genetic differences (like disease heritage for example).

[Black Wolf]

To me Finns don't look homogeneous at all. Some of them look Germanic, some look lappid and some look Eastern European.


They're not the same thing. Even much smaller populations than Finland, like Faroese, aren't inbred. I once read that in Iceland people have to check that they are not closely related when dating someone due to a very small genepool, but they are still around 300 000 people. Finland is 5,5 million, not much but certainly inbred.

People also forget, that Eastern Finns and Western Finns used to be separated populations until very recently and it really shows in genetic differences (like disease heritage for example).

Why then does someone liek me who is only 25% Finnish have so many multiple segment small 5-7 cM matches with Finns at 23andme Relative Finder/Ancestry Finder and FTDNA on Family Finder? Many of these segments do not even seem to be real. They are phantom segments. For some reason I seem to keep getting them with Finns though.

[Äijä]

Why then does someone liek me who is only 25% Finnish have so many multiple segment small 5-7 cM matches with Finns at 23andme Relative Finder/Ancestry Finder and FTDNA on Family Finder? Many of these segments do not even seem to be real. They are phantom segments. For some reason I seem to keep getting them with Finns though.

It is something hiding inside the ANE bit, not discovered yet, what makes us so cool. :cool:

[Peikko]

Why then does someone liek me who is only 25% Finnish have so many multiple segment small 5-7 cM matches with Finns at 23andme Relative Finder/Ancestry Finder and FTDNA on Family Finder? Many of these segments do not even seem to be real. They are phantom segments. For some reason I seem to keep getting them with Finns though.
Let's say, that there was at first a small tribe, which later divided in two different villages in Finland. Let's say, that these two villages were relatively separated from each other and possibly absorbed some, but not much, new blood. Now it could be, that even centuries after, these two villages still share lot's of genetic components, while being far from inbred with each other. It would be quite safe for a villager from village A to marry someone from village B without being worried about being cousins or something. These two villages could also have genetic drift away from each other due to absorbing new blood from different sources.

[Black Wolf]

Let's say, that there was at first a small tribe, which later divided in two different villages in Finland. Let's say, that these two villages were relatively separated from each other and possibly absorbed some, but not much, new blood. Now it could be, that even centuries after, these two villages still share lot's of genetic components, while being far from inbred with each other. It would be quite safe for a villager from village A to marry someone from village B without being worried about being cousins or something. These two villages could also have genetic drift away from each other due to absorbing new blood from different sources.

Right but many people seem to think still that most of these smaller segments that I share with Finns and that Finns share with each other probably are not real. That is they come about because of the homogenous genetic nature of Finnish people.

[Äijä]

Right but many people seem to think still that most of these smaller segments that I share with Finns and that Finns share with each other probably are not real. That is they come about because of the homogenous genetic nature of Finnish people.

Do you have them with other Uralics?

[Black Wolf]

Do you have them with other Uralics?

No just with Finns.

[Argang]

Right but many people seem to think still that most of these smaller segments that I share with Finns and that Finns share with each other probably are not real. That is they come about because of the homogenous genetic nature of Finnish people.

Looking at MfA's forty samples, it looks like 25% of them are not homozygous (showing no long homozygous segments). That's probably the representatives of "original" population. The rest represent various founder effected Finns that descend from them.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Founder_effect.png

You can share with both homozygous and non-homozygous Finns though, because if you share with an individual from the original population you will also share with the subpopulations that carry their genes, and those who have mixed with them later. If you share with a homozygous individual from a drifted population you also end up sharing with many Finns around the country because the drifted subpopulations have mixed with other drifted populations and even the originals later (which is why most Finns show at least some extra homozygosity in the gedmatch tool).

You should be able to see if your Finnish ancestor was from a drifted subpopulation (or mixed with them) or from the non-homozygous original population simply via the gedmatch "Are your parents related tool", assuming your other ancestors are from non-drifted populations. If long homozygous segments don't show up in you, he or she was most likely from a non-homozygous population that contributed to the founder effected populations.

[Black Wolf]

Looking at MfA's forty samples, it looks like 25% of them are not homozygous (showing no long homozygous segments). That's probably the representatives of "original" population. The rest represent various founder effected Finns that descend from them.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Founder_effect.png

You can share with both homozygous and non-homozygous Finns though, because if you share with an individual from the original population you will also share with the subpopulations that carry their genes, and those who have mixed with them later. If you share with a homozygous individual from a drifted population you also end up sharing with many Finns around the country because the drifted subpopulations have mixed with other drifted populations and even the originals later (which is why most Finns show at least some extra homozygosity in the gedmatch tool).

You should be able to see if your Finnish ancestor was from a drifted subpopulation (or mixed with them) or from the non-homozygous original population simply via the gedmatch "Are your parents related tool", assuming your other ancestors are from non-drifted populations. If long homozygous segments don't show up in you, he or she was most likely from a non-homozygous population that contributed to the founder effected populations.

So even though I am only 25% Finnish then it may show in the GEDmatch "Are your parents related tool"?

[Argang]

So even though I am only 25% Finnish then it may show in the GEDmatch "Are your parents related tool"?

Only if your Finnish ancestor was homozygous enough (mixed with drifted Finnish subpopulations), but as I explained that isn't necessary for you to have so many matches.

Small homozygous segments might also come from your other ancestors too, it would likely give more accurate information if you run your parents' kits through the tool instead of your own if you have them @ Gedmatch. Even better if you have your grandfather's kit. Your father was 50% Calabrese 50% Finnish right? If he shows extra homozygosity in that tool and your Calabrese grandfather does not, it could only have come from his Finnish side.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Let's say, that there was at first a small tribe, which later divided in two different villages in Finland. Let's say, that these two villages were relatively separated from each other and possibly absorbed some, but not much, new blood. Now it could be, that even centuries after, these two villages still share lot's of genetic components, while being far from inbred with each other. It would be quite safe for a villager from village A to marry someone from village B without being worried about being cousins or something. These two villages could also have genetic drift away from each other due to absorbing new blood from different sources.

Nope, you are arguing against a definition. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being inbred in and of itself. People who are the most inbred score the highest on IQ tests, because having a bunch of random bullshit in your DNA is not a good thing. And also it's a sign you don't breed randomly or based on stupid reasons like breast size, but selectively.

Just get over the idea that inbred = incest. They are not the same thing whatsoever.

[Äijä]

Nope, you are arguing against a definition. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being inbred in and of itself. People who are the most inbred score the highest on IQ tests, because having a bunch of random bullshit in your DNA is not a good thing. And also it's a sign you don't breed randomly or based on stupid reasons like breast size, but selectively.

Just get over the idea that inbred = incest. They are not the same thing whatsoever.

Having done genealogy I can confirm how selective they have been in Finland in the oldest families that have record, they sure as hell knew who was who and married each other but not too close.
It was not only isolation, they could find the suitable partner even from a distance, they kept contact clearly.

[Argang]

Having done genealogy I can confirm how selective they have been in Finland in the oldest families that have record, they sure as hell knew who was who and married each other but not too close.
It was not only isolation, they could find the suitable partner even from a distance, they kept contact clearly.

Nonetheless with small founder populations some extra homozygosity (or "inbreeding") inevitably happens though it's not comparable to second cousins marrying or such. There are of course old settlement Finns who haven't been affected by that and are not homozygous/"inbred", these would be scoring <1's at the gedmatch utility. I'd guess 25-30% of the population, though 40 samples might not be representative enough.

[Äijä]

Nonetheless with small founder populations some extra homozygosity (or "inbreeding") inevitably happens though it's not comparable to second cousins marrying or such. There are of course old settlement Finns who haven't been affected by that and are not homozygous/"inbred", these would be scoring <1's at the gedmatch utility. I'd guess 25-30% of the population, though 40 samples might not be representative enough.

Im confessing the inbreeding part, no need to convince me. :rolleyes:

[Argang]

Well, the word really has nasty connotations doesn't it? Talking about homozygosity is what we'd do out in the real world but here you gotta embrace your anthroforasona.

About your possible personal extra homozyg...ahem, "inbreeding", you never know if you haven't done a test. ;)

[Äijä]

Well, the word really has nasty connotations doesn't it? Talking about homozygosity is what we'd do out in the real world but here you gotta embrace your anthroforasona.

About your possible personal extra homozyg...ahem, "inbreeding", you never know if you haven't done a test. ;)

True but the possibility of not being an inbred Tavastian are minimal. :cool:

[Äijä]

True but the possibility of not being an inbred Tavastian are minimal. :cool:

I do have a 50% Karelian mother, they are red-heads so could be part Udmurt. :rolleyes:

[Argang]

Tavastia is a stone age settlement is it not? Now if you were from Kuusamo...

[Äijä]

Tavastia is a stone age settlement is it not? Now if you were from Kuusamo...

Well yes, but it is coming clear that most came here in the metal ages, the Sami where here in the stone age and give a signal for most Finns.

[Argang]

Saami probably aren't that old, and the components Finns and Scandinavians share with them are shown in admixture runs (example: NE-mesolithic in MDLP 22) but not as extra homozygosity.

[Äijä]

Saami probably aren't that old, and the components Finns and Scandinavians share with them are shown in admixture runs (example: NE-mesolithic in MDLP 22) but not as extra homozygosity.

Yes, they are a new population, propably a mix between the Paleo-population, Finnic and Germanic.
Or do you find this impossible?
Im not an genetical expert but every other fact points to that and what I understand about genes points to that also.

[Argang]

I think the Saami are relatively recent, possibly not even the first N1c1 carriers in the area.

[Äijä]

I think the Saami are relatively recent, possibly not even the first N1c1 carriers in the area.

My take is that they are mixed population that survived the invasion of the Finns and Scandinavians in the area, possibly because of being partly mixed families and having some protection from that.
They speak an archaic language and many where only recently assimilated.

There would have been traders living among with the old population, then came the migration of the families in search of land.
Maybe someone will shoot that theory but there is logic in that.

There is a long history of competing for the taxation of the Sami in the area and they have negative folklore about Finns and Scandinavians.

[Black Wolf]

Only if your Finnish ancestor was homozygous enough (mixed with drifted Finnish subpopulations), but as I explained that isn't necessary for you to have so many matches.

Small homozygous segments might also come from your other ancestors too, it would likely give more accurate information if you run your parents' kits through the tool instead of your own if you have them @ Gedmatch. Even better if you have your grandfather's kit. Your father was 50% Calabrese 50% Finnish right? If he shows extra homozygosity in that tool and your Calabrese grandfather does not, it could only have come from his Finnish side.

Ahhh okay thaks.

[Harkonnen]

People also forget, that Eastern Finns and Western Finns used to be separated populations until very recently and it really shows in genetic differences (like disease heritage for example).

What does this sentence mean? If we can separate a Western from Eastern Finn by looking at the genes then they indeed are separate populations. Why are they separate populations? Because of isolation. So you can not say that they used to be separate as obviously the basic gene base for both are more or less the same, with different later influences. What you should say here is that they used to be the same population.


Why then does someone liek me who is only 25% Finnish have so many multiple segment small 5-7 cM matches with Finns at 23andme Relative Finder/Ancestry Finder and FTDNA on Family Finder? Many of these segments do not even seem to be real. They are phantom segments. For some reason I seem to keep getting them with Finns though.

Because Finns share more segments which each other than Euromutts.

[Peikko]

Nope, you are arguing against a definition. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being inbred in and of itself. People who are the most inbred score the highest on IQ tests, because having a bunch of random bullshit in your DNA is not a good thing. And also it's a sign you don't breed randomly or based on stupid reasons like breast size, but selectively.

Just get over the idea that inbred = incest. They are not the same thing whatsoever.
Okay, I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't know the exact difference between inbred an incest. Incest would obviously mean having sex with a cousin or sister etc., but I thought inbred people are inbred because of incest.


I think the Saami are relatively recent, possibly not even the first N1c1 carriers in the area.
Saami aren't original N1c1 carriers, but they probably got it from Finns.


What does this sentence mean? If we can separate a Western from Eastern Finn by looking at the genes then they indeed are separate populations. Why are they separate populations? Because of isolation. So you can not say that they used to be separate as obviously the basic gene base for both are more or less the same, with different later influences. What you should say here is that they used to be the same population.

What do you mean they used to be the same population? I1 came from the West and N1c1 came from the East.

[Äijä]

What do you mean they used to be the same population? I1 came from the West and N1c1 came from the East.

There are Western and Eastern N1c1 clades, the Western ones have contact to Estonia and Sweden, the Eastern to Karelia.

I have no strong opinion yet, if the old population, lets call them Sami , had any N1c1.

[Harkonnen]

What do you mean they used to be the same population? I1 came from the West and N1c1 came from the East.

You seriously hurt my brain. Do you understand the timescales we are talking here, you know proto-Finnic? Not the times of Jesus Christ Fucking Superstar Paleolithic Prince of Darkness.

The gene base is clearly the same, you can see this from the IBS where in relation to other Europeans E and W Finns are rather similar.

[Peikko]

You seriously hurt my brain. Do you understand the timescales we are talking here, you know proto-Finnic? Not the times of Jesus Christ Fucking Superstar Paleolithic Prince of Darkness.

The gene base is clearly the same, you can see this from the IBS where in relation to other Europeans E and W Finns are rather similar.
Butt-hurt? :naughty2:

[Harkonnen]

Butt-hurt? :naughty2:

About what?

[Peikko]

About what?
About me pointing out the difference between Western and Eastern Finland. I've noticed you get butt-hurt about it.

[Harkonnen]

About me pointing out the difference between Western and Eastern Finland. I've noticed you get butt-hurt about it.

Please stop. The only thing I get butthurt about is stupidity. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, so naturally it annoys me.

[Peikko]

Please stop. The only thing I get butthurt about is stupidity. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, so naturally it annoys me.
So are you denying that there's a difference?


Variation within Finns is, according to fixation index (FST) values, greater than anywhere else in Europe. Greatest intra-Finnish FST distance is about 60, greatest intra-Swedish FST distance about 25.[42][43] FST distances between for example Germans, French and Hungarians is only 10, and between Estonians, Russians and Poles it is also 10.[44] Thus Finns from different parts of the country are more remote from each other genetically than are many European peoples from each other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns

I'm not sure how reliable it is, since karl might have edited our wiki-article.

[Fire Haired]

MR.Knowitall when did you find you have Y DNA N1c1(doubt its N1c1*)?

[Peikko]

MR.Knowitall when did you find you have Y DNA N1c1(doubt its N1c1*)?
I didn't, I don't know my Y-DNA and I'm not going to do any tests. It's just very likely, that I'm N1c1, though subclade could be a mystery. I took N1c1* from Hweinlant's profile.

[Hevo]

I didn't, I don't know my Y-DNA and I'm not going to do any tests. It's just very likely, that I'm N1c1, though subclade could be a mystery. I took N1c1* from Hweinlant's profile.

There is always a chance that you could be I1 or even a R1aryan tough.:P

[Peikko]

There is always a chance that you could be I1 or even a R1aryan tough.:P
That's very unlikely, because my paternal line is fully Finnish.

[Jackson]

That's very unlikely, because my paternal line is fully Finnish.

But Finns aren't 100% N1c.

I would by all accounts have expected to be R1b.

[Peikko]

But Finns aren't 100% N1c.

I would by all accounts have expected to be R1b.
Yes, Finns aren't 100% N1c. But I have my reasons to believe, that I am N1c, or let's say there's around 80% chance of that.

[Hevo]

That's very unlikely, because my paternal line is fully Finnish.

Yeah, most likely is N1c1 no doubt. For example R1b is the most common haplogroup in Hollandia and it turns out that i am not an exception.:P

[Fire Haired]

I didn't, I don't know my Y-DNA and I'm not going to do any tests. It's just very likely, that I'm N1c1, though subclade could be a mystery. I took N1c1* from Hweinlant's profile.

There are many possibilities for your Y DNA haplogroup, since your Finnish you most likely have N1c1 but there is also a good chance you have I1a2 L22. My maternal line is from Prussia and there was an about 80% or higher chance I would have some type of near eastern farmer mtDNA haplogroup but when I took a test I found I have European hunter gatherer haplogroup U5b2a2. You might even have Y DNA J2, you should take a test if you are interested in knowing what you have.

[Peikko]

There are many possibilities for your Y DNA haplogroup, since your Finnish you most likely have N1c1 but there is also a good chance you have I1a2 L22. My maternal line is from Prussia and there was an about 80% or higher chance I would have some type of near eastern farmer mtDNA haplogroup but when I took a test I found I have European hunter gatherer haplogroup U5b2a2. You might even have Y DNA J2, you should take a test if you are interested in knowing what you have.
Nah, I don't care that much.

[Jackson]

Nah, I don't care that much.

Well probably better to keep it as an unknown then i guess.

[Albion]

But Finns aren't 100% N1c.

I would by all accounts have expected to be R1b.

I totally expected to be R1b in Britain, but I thought I'd be L21. L48 was a nice suprise.

[Albion]

Yeah, most likely is N1c1 no doubt. For example R1b is the most common haplogroup in Hollandia and it turns out that i am not an exception.:P

I thought you were from Slovakia?

[Äijä]

If you are not I1 or N1c1 in Finland, especially West, you are really rare.

[Aila]

I didn't, I don't know my Y-DNA and I'm not going to do any tests. It's just very likely, that I'm N1c1, though subclade could be a mystery. I took N1c1* from Hweinlant's profile.

I don’t know my grandfathers’ haplogroups either, but the last time I checked - the Finnish relatives at 23andMe scored near 50% I1 and around 50% N1c1.
So you just never know.

I thought there was a more Eastern I1 subclade as well (?)

[xajapa]

If you are not I1 or N1c1 in Finland, especially West, you are really rare.


http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/country/82/

[Peikko]

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/country/82/
Only about 10-11% other than N1c or I1. I'd say it's quite rare.

[King Claus]

There has got to be some good explanation out there why I match Finns from all over Finland better on 23andme's Ancestry Finder feature than I do either Irish/Brits or Italians at the 5cM 4gp threshold.

HAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! you attavism, do you really think that it's possible that someone with your looks can be closer to finns than people from great brittain? not that you could pass in either places;D

[Peikko]

Finnland is cut off from the rest of the world by the mountains so it has less outside geneflow.

It's an old post, but I only noticed it now. By what mountains? There aren't any mountains in Finland. I think you mean by sea.


Orcadians are quite a close bunch. Islanders. :P

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/11/roh1.png
Finland is an island, basically.

[Black Wolf]

HAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! you attavism, do you really think that it's possible that someone with your looks can be closer to finns than people from great brittain? not that you could pass in either places;D

Alien please smoke some more meth and fly away like the ferry you are. My genetic matches here speak for themselves. I have more British and Finnish ancestry than you will ever have you fuck. :D

[King Claus]

Alien please smoke some more meth and fly away like the ferry you are. My genetic matches here speak for themselves. I have more British and Finnish ancestry than you will ever have you fuck. :D

Hahaa.............. I rather be german dutch and danish than 50 % neanderthal HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA .

[Black Wolf]

Hahaa.............. I rather be german dutch and danish than 50 % neanderthal HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA .

Woooooooo!

[King Claus]

Woooooooo!

Yea that's right you pathetic atavism:D

[Black Wolf]

Yea that's right you pathetic atavism:D

Pathetic? lol you are a comedian Dexter. You probably can't even lift your own body weight you gracile pussssssssss. :P

[King Claus]

Pathetic? lol you are a comedian Dexter. You probably can't even lift your own body weight you gracile pussssssssss. :P

You have obviously no idea how i would look like when i would eat like a monster and pull weight like a proper neanderthal monkey everyday:)

[Black Wolf]

You have obviously no idea how i would look like when i would eat like a monster and pull weight like a proper neanderthal monkey everyday:)

You would need a lot of work bug eyes. :D

[King Claus]

You would need a lot of work bug eyes. :D


LOL. You moron, my eyes are deepset.

[Mans not hot]

You are a bunch of inbreds in comparison to Poles.

[Black Wolf]

LOL. You moron, my eyes are deepset.

I have seen your pics...They pop out of our sockets like the alien you are. Good try though fuck tard.

[King Claus]

I have seen your pics...They pop out of our sockets like the alien you are. Good try though fuck tard.

haha, are you mad?

[Black Wolf]

haha, are you mad?

Nah I'm happy lol!

[King Claus]

Nah I'm happy lol!

funny though because i have deepset eyes and you are an atavism and yet you claim not to be and say that i have bug eyes

[Black Wolf]

funny though because i have deepset eyes and you are an atavism and yet you claim not to be and say that i have bug eyes

I never claimed not to be an atavism. On the contrary I am proud of my Neanderthal roots. :D