The annexation of Klaipeda

[Skomand]

http://www.15min.lt/en/article/culture-society/historian-vasilijus-safranovas-annexation-of-klaipeda-is-a-key-event-in-lithuania-s-history-528-297154

Historians agree: Lithuania's annexation of Klaipėda region – or Memelland – ninety years ago was one of the most significant developments in the country's 20th century history. Even today, romanticism inflects discussions of events in January 1923, often overshadowing level-headed factual accounts.

Last December, Lithuanian MPs were debating a resolution on naming 2013 the year of the recovery of Klaipėda region. Historians then pointed out that Klaipėda was not “recovered” – it was not lost and had never been part of any Lithuanian state. So the resolution dropped the word “recovery” and now 2013 is simply the year of Klaipėda region. In official greetings and speeches, however, everyone still refers to a “recovery”. ...........

Skaitykite daugiau: http://www.15min.lt/en/article/culture-society/historian-vasilijus-safranovas-annexation-of-klaipeda-is-a-key-event-in-lithuania-s-history-528-297154#ixzz2i5RlIxa8

[Petros Houhoulis]

Civilized people, they accepted their history. You should be grateful about it.

[Hercus Monte]

Civilized people, they accepted their history. You should be grateful about it.
it's a little difficult to deny a well know fact.

[lI]

I never really understood what's up with the big fuss about that region.

The merger was the best thing that could have happened to both Lithuania AND Klaipeda (the alternative for it would have been the fate of Kaliningrad), so does it really matter what it will be named? The land was predominantly ethnically Lithuanian anyway and the Interwar Lithuania was formed on the ethnic basis, unlike Interwar Poland, for example.


And there's already a thread about this topic - why not just keep everything in one place instead of making duplicate threads:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?81999-Liths-admit-to-faking-Klaipeda-revolt

[Hercus Monte]

I never really understood what's up with the big fuss about that region.


is there big fuss about the region? in my opinion Vilnius and Kaunas get a lot more atention

[lI]

is there big fuss about the region? in my opinion Vilnius and Kaunas get a lot more atention

I meant the fuss on behalf of Skomand. But one East German I met in Magdeburg also went on about it as if it was some great historical injustice.

But wait... what sort of fuss about territorial claims does Kaunas get, according to you? Who's claiming it?
I don't hear blabberings about Lauda's "Poles" from the actual Poles often - in fact, I've only even heard it once and it was on this board (surprise, surprise :rolleyes:). Most contemporary Poles probably don't even know what that is.

[Hercus Monte]

But wait... what sort of fuss about territorial claims does Kaunas get, according to you? Who's claiming it?
I meant the press in general, not territorial claims ;)

I meant the fuss on behalf of Skomand. But one East German I met in Magdeburg also went on about it as if it was some great historical injustice.
they want another Danzig Corridor?

[lI]

they want another Danzig Corridor?God knows what they want. When I mentioned what I said here about Kaliningrad to that guy from Magdeburg, he said that we shouldn't discuss politics.



it was not lost and had never been part of any Lithuanian state.
If the following is correct, then what you've said above is not true:

1259 the act granting Dainava and Scalovia to the Order was written by Mindaugas. In the historiography this act is considered to be falsified by the Order.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania_Minor#German-Lithuanian_rivalry

[Hercus Monte]

God knows what they want. When I mentioned what I said here about Kaliningrad to that guy from Magdeburg, he said that we shouldn't discuss politics.

I don't know. I used to work as a waiter in Nida and never heard of such claims.

[Skomand]

“What recovery are you talking about?” the historian insists. “Are we still espousing the same 90-year-old legend – which was relevant between the wars – that we came back and reclaimed our lands? Let me ask you this – whenever were these lands part of Lithuania? Klaipėda was a town founded by the German Order in the 13th century. For two centuries after that, Lithuanians would occasionally come and burn everything down. I do not think that these ambushes could be used as evidence that it was part of Lithuania. And in 1422, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania itself acknowledged that Klaipėda belonged to the German Order.”

Skaitykite daugiau: http://www.15min.lt/en/article/culture-society/historian-vasilijus-safranovas-annexation-of-klaipeda-is-a-key-event-in-lithuania-s-history-528-297154#ixzz2iIwt4Xgf

[lI]

Klaipėda was a town founded by the German Order in the 13th century.Oh, sorry, were we discussing merely the town rather than the whole Scalovian region (a.k.a. Klaipeda's region) here?


And in 1422, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania itself acknowledged that Klaipėda belonged to the German Order.Was I contesting that event? Or was I merely disagreeing with you saying that Klaipeda's region "had never been part of any Lithuanian state."

It's simply mind-boggling how the Teutonic Order went through a bother to forge an act of Lithuanians granting them this land if it had never belonged to Lithuanians in the first place - silly them, huh?

[Skomand]

Oh, sorry, were we discussing merely the town rather than the whole Scalovian region (a.k.a. Klaipeda's region) here?

Was I contesting that event? Or was I merely disagreeing with you saying that Klaipeda's region "had never been part of any Lithuanian state."

It's simply mind-boggling how the Teutonic Order went through a bother to forge an act of Lithuanians granting them this land if it had never belonged to Lithuanians in the first place - silly them, huh?

Yes, it is mind-boogling indeed since he did not possess the land (but I have to look up in the literature what they say about the forgery, which it seems to be indeed).

We have however a statement by Vytautas where he admits in the peace treaty of 1384 with the Teutonic Order

Quote Vytautas:

"Von Rumsisken vort an die Memel uff kein Rusen im mittilstrome ken den landen zcu Prusen; von dannen bis uff die Masouwe und Polan, alzo, was czwisschen den landen and Prusen und der Memel gelegin ist, das das czumole ir ("ir" is the Order) blibe ... . Ouch sint die selben landt ni unsir elderen gewest und bekennen, das wir kein Recht daczu haben."
Translation of the last sentence:
"Also, the very same lands have never been the lands of our ancestors, and (we) admit that we have no claim to them."

[lI]

We have however a statement by Vytautas where he admits in the peace treaty of 1384 with the Teutonic OrderThat's a joke, right?

"A peace treaty" is a nice way of calling a document which Vytautas signed with the Order when he came begging for the Order's help empty-handed after having escaped from death in Krėva's castle where Kęstutis had been assassinated by Jogaila. He had virtually no power then - of course, he could have signed whatever the Order wanted him to - even giving away Samogitia up to Nevėžis but the treaty's significance is nill.

In order to be convincing, you should come up with something he signed when he actually was in a position of power.


Wait, I read that German text again and OMG it's saying that Rumšiškės - a village situated EAST of Kaunas - wasn't a part of his fatherland either :laugh:
I mean, that pretty much proves my point: he just signed a bunch of BS that the Order wanted him to sign. Or are you actually expecting anybody to take the claim about Aukštaitija never having been Lithuanian seriously? Please answer, I'm dying to know, really.

[Skomand]

That's a joke, right?

"A piece treaty" is a nice way of calling a document which Vytautas signed with the order when he came begging for Order's help after having escaped death empty-handed from Kreva's castle where Kestutis had been assassinated by Jogaila. He had virtually no power then - of course, he could have signed whatever the Order wanted him to even giving away Samogitia up to Nevezis but the treaty's significance is nill.

In order to be convincing, you should come up with something he signed when he actually was in a position of power.


Wait, I read that German text again and OMG it's saying that Rumšiškės - a village situated EAST of Kaunas - wasn't a part of his fatherland either :lol
I mean, that pretty much proves my point: he just signed a bunch of BS that the Order wanted him to sign. Or are you actually expect anybody to take the claim of Aukštaitija never having been Lithuanian seriously? Please answer, I'm dying to know, really.

He revoked it later when he was in power. Yet, this argument is as valid as the other one.
But we have some other evidence: the inhabitants west of the Memel never paid tribute to any Lithuanian ruler and Vytautas in another context told his own people to allow themselves to be taxed by Prussian authorities when they crossed into Prussian territory west of the Memel for fishing, bee-keeping etc.


In a letter Vytautas acknowledges the Order's rights to tax honey-collectors
and fishermen - his own subjects !!! - that cross into Prussian territory from Goniadz. So he knew who
possessed what territory, otherwise he would have taxed his own subjects
himself.
Quote Vytautas:
" ..do der pfleger czur Lycke sie genotiget hatte heischende den czins von in, das sie im den musten geben doch mit unsirm geheissen ... das sie den czins dem pfleger geben ... was adir von fischen unsir luthe of euwir fischerie pfohen werden, do zollin sie sich wol mit euwirn pfleger zur Lycke umbe vorgleichin.."


http://hostarea.de/out.php/i316377_gonezk.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/316377_gonezk.jpg.html)

[lI]

But we have some other evidence: the inhabitants west of the Memel never paid tribute to any Lithuanian ruler and Vytautas in another context told his own people to allow themselves to be taxed by Prussian authorities when they crossed into Prussian territory west of the Memel for fishing, bee-keeping etc.West of Memel is only the Curonian spit and the sea. I didn't know bees were kept in the spit. In all the info I've read about it so far it was stated that the forests were only planted several centuries ago and before that the spit was for the most part barren sand dunes.



http://hostarea.de/out.php/i316377_gonezk.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/316377_gonezk.jpg.html)Are we still talking about the Scalovian lands - Klaipeda's region (on the map in red)?
http://imageshack.us/a/img571/8415/p75i.png

Samogitia is also West of the line you drew. I wonder if Vytautas had them in mind too when saying that they should pay taxes to the Order.
And, if he did have them in mind as well, more importantly - if they did pay them :laugh:

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i316390_zml.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/316390_zml.jpg.html)

The territory that Vytautas ceded to the Order in 1384 is in red.

So in order to make clear what our exchange is about: I say Scalovia (including the modern Memelland) and Nadruvia never were part of Lithuania.
Historian Safronovas in the aforementioned newspaper article says that the Klaipeda region before 1923 never was Lithuanian.
The Lithuanian historians celebrated a day of the Klaipeda region and not a day of the "recovery" of the Klaipeda region.

You mention a document apparently forged by the Order.

You say this:
"The merger was the best thing that could have happened to both Lithuania AND Klaipeda (the alternative for it would have been the fate of Kaliningrad), so does it really matter what it will be named? The land was predominantly ethnically Lithuanian anyway and the Interwar Lithuania was formed on the ethnic basis, unlike Interwar Poland, for example."

The important sentence here is "The land was predominantly ethnically Lithuanian anyway".

Memel had always been German, the land around predominantly Lithuanian (through immigration !!) . But these Lithuanians were my kind, Lietuwininkai, and not your kind . Your taryba never allowed a referendum in the Klaipeda region (like it was done in Prussian Masuria) because in all the elections German-oriented parties had always won around 80 per cent of the vote.
If they had to be separated from Germany as the Treaty of Versailles decreed then they wanted a Free State solution.

[Hercus Monte]

But these Lithuanians were my kind, Lietuwininkai, and not your kind .
being half šišioniškis, do I get a vote?

[Petros Houhoulis]

You Germans just couldn't resist planting your colonies all over the Hanse and then you butthurt because the local barbarians discovered the joys of trade and coastline?

Hmmm... Where have I seen this before? Ah, here, here!

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0144%3Aspeech%3D 5%3Asection%3D5

Isocrates, Philippus, 5.5


[5] In the first place, you, for your part, will have to be persuaded that the friendship of our city would be worth more to you than the revenues which you derive from Amphipolis, while Athens will have to learn, if she can, the lesson that she should avoid planting the kind of colonies1 which have been the ruin, four or five times over, of those domiciled in them, and should seek out for colonization the regions which are far distant from peoples which have a capacity for dominion and near those which have been habituated to subjection—such a region as, for example, that in which the Lacedaemonians established the colony of Cyrene.2
1 Such as Amphipolis, surrounded by warlike tribes.

2 Cyrene, in northern Africa. See Grote, Hist. iii. p. 445.

Yes, the city was built by the Germans.

No, it was inevitable that it would fall to the surrounding locals just like every Ancient Greek colony succumbed to the sea of its' neighbors, sooner or later.

Be wise like us and do not try to make claims upon Marseilles, Alexandreia or Syracuse, because the era of noble colonialism in Europe is over. You overstretched your colonies not just around the Hanse but also as far as Romania and Yugoslavia in the south, and you could not possibly claim all of these trading posts anyway. You have been in hot water for them for a very long period of time, at least since the frightened German traders of Wallachia inspired the horror tales of count Dracula, and until you declared WWII over Danzig...

I am really sorry to intervene and break your bubble, but we really have more important issues right now, a less noble form of colonization going 'round, and if you leave your former colonies alone, maybe they shall show you their gratitude some day. Maybe...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae4mf3xEpXc

...Or they are just trying to prove they are not MENA Eh???