#paleoamericanodyssey tweets on 24,000-year old Mal'ta Siberian

[Black Wolf]

This looks quite interesting!...I do not have Twitter but others can check this out in full I suppose if you have it.

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/10/paleoamericanodyssey-tweets-on-24000.html

[Gaston]

Twitter? Is that the future of science? :picard1:

I don't see anything worth quoting for now anyway and the two first tweets are contradictory.

[Black Wolf]

Twitter? Is that the future of science? :picard1:

I don't see anything worth quoting for now anyway and the two first tweets are contradictory.

There is nothing wrong with posting interesting scientific information on Twitter. Does not seem much different from here really. I agree that the first two tweets do seem contradictory though. Still this may turn out to be quite informative and interesting.

[Fire Haired]

Those two tweets cant be true Y DNA, mtDNA, and austomal DNA of native Americans shows almost no west Eurasian(Caucasian(Europe, Near east and north Africa) ancestry. Only mtDNA X2 plus skull shape, body hair, facial hair, and hair texture connects native Americans more with Mongliods in Asia like Y DNA, mtDNA, and austomal DNA. Native Americans are true Mongliods I guess mtDNA X2 shows tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny bit of Caucasian blood. Polynesians even though like native Americans have very dark skin and look even less east Asian are also true Mongliods. Oceania which are the black looking people in southeast Asia, pacific islands, and Australia also group with Mongliod in y DNA, mtDNA, and austomal DNA. So obviously physical features is not the only tool to use to see how people are related. In my town there is a Native American center and I have seen native Americans with slanted eyes and if you look at old pictures from the 1800's they have very similar features to Mongliods in asia.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

We already know there's a 5% western euro autosomal genetic component in native americans, so not it's not impossible.

[Fire Haired]

We already know there's a 5% western euro autosomal genetic component in native americans, so not it's not impossible.

You know that Spain and kind of Portugal conquered all of central and south America and mixed with the native people. That British, French, Etc. claimed pretty much all the land in north America and later overtime became apart of the USA and that all those people are from western Europe. And we know there has been Native American and white inter marriage I have a tiny bit of Native American ancestry. Also I doubt if the west euro component existed 24,000 years ago that they would be able to inter marry with northeast Asians.

It seems by looking at austomal DNA of Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers that like Native Americans they had been genetically very isolated and were about 100% of Palaeolithic European aka European ancestry. The only areas of the world besides Europe you find "North Euro"(originated in Palaeolithic Europe) is in Indo Iranian speakers which can be explained in (Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1431-INdo-Iranian-and-Tocherian-DNA)) and in north Africa which can be explained with European mtDNA V and U51b1b which are pretty popular there. So I really doubt Native American have legit pre colonization European ancestry unless maybe northeast ones if they inter married with Vikings which maybe has been assumed to be inter marriage in colonial times. If there is some Y DNA I1a Df29 more specifically I1a2 L22, R1a1a1b1 Z283, and R1b1a2a1a1 U106 in northeast Native Americans that cant be explained by inter marriage with Europeans that colonized them and finds Scandinavian matches that proofs inter marriage with Vikings which would be pretty cool. I am pretty mtDNA C1 in Icelanders may be proof of Viking-Native American inter marriage(click here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21069749)). Possibly there are folk stories in tribes in that area of people with strange looking faces and blue eyes and yellow hair which would have stood out to them. Since the natives in that area are Inuit and have pale skin that wouldn't surprise them. And possibly there are Folk stories in Iceland of people with wide faces and slanted eyes there are folk stories in Germanic people's of the Huns describing them in that way those stories have lasted almost 2,000 years.

[Black Wolf]

Actually I have just been informed by a colleague of mine that this ancient Siberian specimens Y-DNA haplogroup is R.

[Harkonnen]

I wonder if this is the same sample that Verenich had on his spreadsheet named 'Ancient'. I do believe Vadim said that it was a 20 000 year old sample from Baikal.Does somebody have Vadim's spreadsheet? If I remember right it scored on the spreadsheet 20-30% Uralic, 20-30% Caucasus-Gedrosian, 20-30% North-Euro, or something along those lines. I think there was hefty amount 'East Siberian' or similar there too.

[Harkonnen]

I need to add that it is of course nonsense to say that someone from 20000 years ago is 20% Northeast Euro & 15% Arabian and Eskimo or whatever, as none of these existed back then. But still these kind of results are interesting and they do tell us something, only question is what.

[Aila]

I wonder if this is the same sample that Verenich had on his spreadsheet named 'Ancient'. I do believe Vadim said that it was a 20 000 year old sample from Baikal.Does somebody have Vadim's spreadsheet? If I remember right it scored on the spreadsheet 20-30% Uralic, 20-30% Caucasus-Gedrosian, 20-30% North-Euro, or something along those lines. I think there was hefty amount 'East Siberian' or similar there too.

K27:
Ancient
0.001 Nilotic-Omotic
4.6573 Ancestral-South-Indian
11.4993 North-European-Baltic
38.4626 Uralic
0.001 Australo-Melanesian
0.001 East-Siberean
0.001 Ancestral-Yayoi
0.001 Caucasian-Near-Eastern
0.001 Tibeto-Burman
0.001 Austronesian
0.001 Central-African-Pygmean
0.001 Central-African-Hunter-Gatherers
0.001 Nilo-Saharian
0.001 North-African
25.3658 Gedrosia-Caucasian
0.001 Cushitic
0.001 Congo-Pygmean
0.001 Bushmen
0.001 South-Meso-Amerindian
0.001 South-West-European
17.3835 North-Amerindian
0.001 Arabic
0.001 North-Circumpolar
0.001 Kalash
1.1879 Papuan-Australian
0.001 Baltic-Finnic
1.4236 Bantu

The "Ancient" clustered together with Bashkirs, Chuvash and Udmurts.

[Harkonnen]

Like I said, North Amerindian is very similar to East Siberian. The Uralic component had a very interesting spread on that sheet as it scored around 30 also on the ancient Swedish Funnelbeaker remains as well as on todays Saami, but surprisingly not at all with Finns. Anyway thank you very much Aila :)

[Black Wolf]

K27:
Ancient
0.001 Nilotic-Omotic
4.6573 Ancestral-South-Indian
11.4993 North-European-Baltic
38.4626 Uralic
0.001 Australo-Melanesian
0.001 East-Siberean
0.001 Ancestral-Yayoi
0.001 Caucasian-Near-Eastern
0.001 Tibeto-Burman
0.001 Austronesian
0.001 Central-African-Pygmean
0.001 Central-African-Hunter-Gatherers
0.001 Nilo-Saharian
0.001 North-African
25.3658 Gedrosia-Caucasian
0.001 Cushitic
0.001 Congo-Pygmean
0.001 Bushmen
0.001 South-Meso-Amerindian
0.001 South-West-European
17.3835 North-Amerindian
0.001 Arabic
0.001 North-Circumpolar
0.001 Kalash
1.1879 Papuan-Australian
0.001 Baltic-Finnic
1.4236 Bantu

The "Ancient" clustered together with Bashkirs, Chuvash and Udmurts.

Is this ''Ancient'' sample that Verenich had the same as this Siberian one do you know for sure?

[Aila]

Is this ''Ancient'' sample that Verenich had the same as this Siberian one do you know for sure?


Wish Vadim was here to talk about it himself, but here is the link:
http://verenich.wordpress.com/category/mdlp/


Ancient DNA resident Paleolithic Malta (Siberia)
[2,] "33.7% + 66.3% Brahui Udmurd" "21.9804"
[3,] "34.5% + 65.5% Makrani Udmurd" "22,357"
[4,] "34.3% + 65.7% Balochi Udmurd" "22,413"
[5 ,] "33.3% + 66.7% Sindhi Udmurd" "24.1198"
[6,] "36.5% + 63.5% Burusho Udmurd" "24,211"
[7,] "39.7% + 60.3% Pashtun Udmurd" "24.3389"
[8] "Pathan 34.3% + 65.7% Udmurd" "24,716"
[9,] "32.2% + 67.8% Pakistani Udmurd" "24,753"
[10,] "41.4% Tadjik + 58.6% Udmurd" "24.852

[Argang]

Like I said, North Amerindian is very similar to East Siberian. The Uralic component had a very interesting spread on that sheet as it scored around 30 also on the ancient Swedish Funnelbeaker remains as well as on todays Saami, but surprisingly not at all with Finns. Anyway thank you very much Aila :)

K27's "Baltic-finnic" component covers the majority of siberian-type affinity in La Brana and Finns, but compare its Fst distances to North Asian populations with normal "Baltic" and you see that component covers less of it. The European or European-like components in both types of Swedish remains are either Baltic, or Southwest European and Near Eastern, so their Asian connection shows up separately as Uralic (or Amerindian etc).

[Black Wolf]

Wish Vadim was here to talk about it himself, but here is the link:
http://verenich.wordpress.com/category/mdlp/

Yes I did see that earlier as well thank you still though. Verenich's stuff always seems to strange to me though.

[Black Wolf]

K27's "Baltic-finnic" component covers the majority of siberian-type affinity in La Brana and Finns, but compare its Fst distances to North Asian populations with normal "Baltic" and you see that component covers less of it. The European or European-like components in both types of Swedish remains are either Baltic, or Southwest European and Near Eastern, so their Asian connection shows up separately as Uralic (or Amerindian etc).

What do you think about the origins of the North-European-Baltic and Baltic-Finnic components from Vadim Verenich's K27 analysis?

[Argang]

They're almost the same based on Fst distances, I don't know for sure until Verenich explains it...but my suspicion is that the North-European Baltic is like the normal "Lithuanian" component used for North European in Eurogenes K9 etc, and Baltic-Finnic is the same but with all La Brana's more eastern affinity included.

Another explanation could be that it's a Baltic component that shows separately because of (especially North) Finnish genetic drift, but I don't think that would show up in La Brana at over 60%.

[Aila]

Baltic comparisons from the K27 spreadsheet:

North European Baltic
75.70067 Latvian
74.6215 Swedish-Mesolithic
71.67041 Lithuanian
66.1018 Russian
63.08741 Belarusian
62.98316 Center-Russian
61.85183 Sorb
61.65038 Pole
61.60694 South-Russian
60.98117 Estonian

Baltic-Finnic
79.77067 North_Finn
67.7311 BRA
58.0823 Finland
54.38295 South_Finn
52.63717 Finn
48.27855 Inkeri
45.21724 Saami
42.48989 Karelian
34.45601 Vepsa
17.15289 Estonian

[Black Wolf]

They're almost the same based on Fst distances, I don't know for sure until Verenich explains it...but my suspicion is that the North-European Baltic is like the normal "Lithuanian" component used for North European in Eurogenes K9 etc, and Baltic-Finnic is the same but with all La Brana's more eastern affinity included.

Another explanation could be that it's a Baltic component that shows separately because of (especially North) Finnish genetic drift, but I don't think that would show up in La Brana at over 60%.

Is there a DIY version of this calculator for us to use yet? Can we download it?

[Argang]

It's this one (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89576-New-MDLP-Calculator)

But there's heavy calculator effect so unless you are in the project, the results won't be comparable with references.

[Black Wolf]

It's this one (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89576-New-MDLP-Calculator)

But there's heavy calculator effect so unless you are in the project, the results won't be comparable with references.

lol ya I was the one who brought it up partially before as you can see....I was just wondering if he had updated it or not?

[Aila]

Here is Saami K27 result in case anyone is interested, though I think the Saami @ MDLP are genetically quite different from Ander's samples:
(Finnish Saami or calculator effect?)

Saami
0.123444 Nilotic-Omotic
0.190131 Ancestral-South-Indian
8.193281 North-European-Baltic
41.645263 Uralic
0.127181 Australo-Melanesian
0.685619 East-Siberean
0.093256 Ancestral-Yayoi
0.888169 Caucasian-Near-Eastern
0.122075 Tibeto-Burman
0.080894 Austronesian
0.001 Central-African-Pygmean
0.031263 Central-African-Hunter-Gatherers
0.001 Nilo-Saharian
0.001 North-African
0.281119 Gedrosia-Caucasian
0.012056 Cushitic
0.081644 Congo-Pygmean
0.001 Bushmen
0.253275 South-Meso-Amerindian
1.402331 South-West-European
0.001 North-Amerindian
0.091425 Arabic
0.255288 North-Circumpolar
0.104456 Kalash
0.114588 Papuan-Australian
45.217244 Baltic-Finnic
0.001 Bantu

[Harkonnen]

K27's "Baltic-finnic" component covers the majority of siberian-type affinity in La Brana and Finns, but compare its Fst distances to North Asian populations with normal "Baltic" and you see that component covers less of it. The European or European-like components in both types of Swedish remains are either Baltic, or Southwest European and Near Eastern, so their Asian connection shows up separately as Uralic (or Amerindian etc).

I have no clue what you are after with your reply to my post about the Uralic component.

http://abload.de/img/euclidean_k27ksuuo.png

As you can see Uralic component does not cluster with Amerindian/Asian components, so since you brought up fst distances, maybe you indeed should take a look at those distances. I'm genuinely curious about this, I'd suspect that Uralic component is closer to Asian components than the rest of the Euro components, but how much?

--

So what about the Saami? Are you suggesting that the Baltic-Finnic (La Brana) component magically suck up all the Uralic on Finns, but somehow Saami manage to score roughly 50/50 Baltic-Finnic/Uralic. If I'm honest it seems a bit strange logic to me.



Yes I did see that earlier as well thank you still though. Verenich's stuff always seems to strange to me though.


Could you expand on this. Verenich always makes perfect sense to me.

[Argang]

Uralic does not cluster with the true East Asian components in that graph, but Fst-wise it is much closer to them than any "european" component is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndHo5TnJZR2VFYW1lcExMNGUyWTVhe VE#gid=1

As for Baltic-Finnic covering the small amount of Asian in Finns and La Brana but not in Saami, nothing magical about that. Saami are simply much too eastern in comparison (scoring Udmurt levels of Uralic) for that to happen.

Baltic-Finnic to East Siberian and Ancestral-Yayoi 0.117 & 0.109
Uralic to East Siberian and Ancestral-Yayoi 0.092 & 0.09
East Siberian to Ancestral Yayoi 0.05

[Harkonnen]

Yes it was exactly like I thought. The closest components to Uralic are Baltic-Finnic & North Euro Baltic. Thanks very much for the link.

[Black Wolf]

I have no clue what you are after with your reply to my post about the Uralic component.

http://abload.de/img/euclidean_k27ksuuo.png

As you can see Uralic component does not cluster with Amerindian/Asian components, so since you brought up fst distances, maybe you indeed should take a look at those distances. I'm genuinely curious about this, I'd suspect that Uralic component is closer to Asian components than the rest of the Euro components, but how much?

--

So what about the Saami? Are you suggesting that the Baltic-Finnic (La Brana) component magically suck up all the Uralic on Finns, but somehow Saami manage to score roughly 50/50 Baltic-Finnic/Uralic. If I'm honest it seems a bit strange logic to me.





Could you expand on this. Verenich always makes perfect sense to me.

Well the Uralic component showing up in high amounts in the TRB Neolithic farmer from Sweden. I remember seeing that somewhere before. Seems rather odd to me since in other analysis by Dienekes the TRB farmer looked very Mediterranean genetically overall.

[Argang]

The neolithic Swedish farmers were more northeast-european like than Oetzi as seen below, which I guess is represented by ~30% Uralic in K27, but they do show as majority mediterranean/near-eastern.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8Grj3iSFbv8/UkXER1p8w8I/AAAAAAAAJJY/EeDcnid4L18/s640/skoglund.jpg

[Chad Rohlfsen]

Is there a k27 on a full blood native American? Is it possible to run the test on yourself?

[Chad Rohlfsen]

Sorry, I found the link. Do you have a test result of a full-blood native American? Thanks!!