More Eupedia mtDNA maps U4, U3, and U2

[Fire Haired]

Click here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29159-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-U4) for original Eupeida thread of U4
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U4-map.png

I can kind of understand the connection Maciamo see's with Y DNA R1a and mtDNA U4. But the R1a and U4 ratio is not constant. If a people group has low R1a but the highest R1a in their area and good amount of U4 Maciamo uses them as evidence. Usually Maciamo theory's make a lot of sense but so far what he says about his mtDNa maps is total BS. He generalizes Indo Europeans for example in Iberia he should be saying Celts. And the early Indo Europeans around Russia, Ukriane, and Caucus 6,000-8,000ybp were not unified genetically. Proof of this is 5,000 and 6,000 year old Yamna people in southern Russia and Ukraine were very dark eyed(click here) (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/neue-blicke-auf-zivilisa-tionen-der.html). But Andronovo culture(3,800-3,400ybp) in south central Siberia descended from Yamna and probably spoke Indo Iranian language had mainly light eyes and light hair same with pigmentation genes from all Indo Iranians in Asia from bronze and iron ages(Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1431-INdo-Iranian-and-Tocherian-DNA)). They came straight out of Europe 5,000 years ago there were no light Europeans in Asia they could have inter married with.

U4 is pretty popular in Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers(Ancient Eurasian DNA (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml)), much more popular than anywhere in the world today. There is also samples of U4 in Neolithic Europe before mainly R1a1a1b1 Z283 Indo European Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to Balto Slavic) spread in eastern and central Europe, and Scandinavia. So probably the vast majority of U4 in Europe are just Mesolithic hunter gather lineages. R1a1a M17 most likely originated in Europe(click here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Feurogenes.blogspot.com%2F2011%2F1 1%2Forigins-of-r1a1a1-in-or-near-europe-aka.html&ei=uaJhUveGK4WMyQHuiYC4DA&usg=AFQjCNG2HtisWymZcDBMZY344-WXI_868A&sig2=aRljg7-hA6QHuwXjn5p3mw)) and probably is descended from a hunter gather lineage and its decendant R1a1a1 M417 spread with Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages and possibly partly with other Indo European languages. So with this Macimo makes an argument that U4 Is connected with R1a because and is own explanation on how it could still have partly spread with R1a he should say R1a1a1 M417 to be more specific.


Click here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29160-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-U3) for original Eupeida Thread of U3.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U3-map.png

Once again Maciamo generalizes "The Indo Europeans" and the R1b branch. When really it only seems Germanic and Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 and even if not it is not R1b its R1b1a P297 as the oldest branch. And he cant generalize a R1b branch of Indo Europeans it not that simple!!! But I do agree with him that since Germanic and Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 ancestor subclades R1b1a2a1a L23, R1b1a2a M269, or R1b1a P297 migrated to Europe through the Near east so that could be the source of U3 in far western Europe.
Click here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29163-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-U2)for original Eupeida Thread of U2.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U2-map.png

I seriously am shocked by what Maciamo said about U2. There are many U2e samples from Mesolithic Europe(Ancient Eurasian DNA (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml)) proving U2e in Europe is not Indo European and not connected with Y DNA R1a and R1b like he theorized. I really cant believe he tried to connect it with R1a and R1b he generalized the two haplogroups once again. R1b1a2a1a L11 began to spread in western Europe just 4,500-5,000ybp with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages.. R1a1a1b1 Z283 did not become very popular in eastern and central Europe, and Scandinavia until Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to Balto Slavic) 5,000ybp. I guess that the common ancestor to Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 and Corded ware R1a1a1b1 Z283 would have originated around Russia and Ukriane and R1a may have originated in Europe around 18,000ybp. But R1a and R1b did not become widespread in Europe till very recently. I would connect the 37,985 year old U2 sample in Russia to European the origin of European U2e and may have had U2e. And since U2 is so old it probably had split a very long time ago over 40,000 years ago from the U2 subclades popular in south asia.

[Black Wolf]

Right on Fire Boy.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The data is very nice. Like you say, as usual he makes some sweeping conclusions from it that are almost at conspiracy theory levels.

If anything these maps show that the europeans have a long history in this whole area. These are obviously the more ancient inhabitants of europe not the invaders. He seems to be trying hard to make it out like everyone in europe was a recent invader except for scandinavians.

[Maleficent]

U3 is concentrated in the Dead Sea area as it should be. U3a is the most common mtdna in my dad's Relative Finder, many U3 individuals still occupy this ancestral homeland due to a founder effect, population growth from only a few individuals.

I'm happy to have more information about U2e; seems Mesolithic European and not Indo-European. I'd like to know where it actually peaks in Europe besides certain parts of Russia.

[Fire Haired]

The data is very nice. Like you say, as usual he makes some sweeping conclusions from it that are almost at conspiracy theory levels.

If anything these maps show that the europeans have a long history in this whole area. These are obviously the more ancient inhabitants of europe not the invaders. He seems to be trying hard to make it out like everyone in europe was a recent invader except for scandinavians.
I kind of agree Maciamo seems to try make everything have a Neolithic or Indo European origin. He also generalizes Indo Europeans, Cro Magnon, and haplogroups. Usually what he says makes total sense and he is a total expert in history and genetics. I have noticed he never mentions his native country, Y DNA and mtDNA haplogroup which I am sure he has tested for. All he says is he is Celto-Germanic and lives in Brussels, Belgium and has been in every country in Europe. The reason is probably he doesn't want people to think he is biased towards any country or haplogroup and I am pretty much 100% sure he is English. When insulting me in a sarcastic way he called me good chap and in a very early thread when talking about mtDNA he used the word mum which is slang for mother in the British isles. Who in Europe has Celtic and Germanic ancestry besides English and lowland Scottish. I guess kind of more southern Germany and Switzerland, But since he also writes in perfect English and uses British slang words and that from what I have seen Scottish claim to be only Celtic he is probably English. I should probably insult England and see how he reacts.

I think though that because of austomal DNA of European hunter gathers that he would agree a huge chunk and majority of the ancestry of most Europeans is from very early Palaeolithic Europeans. But the origin of haplogroups is different and a lot of the theories I now see through through reading his thread he made 2-4 years ago. Like saying R1b in western Europe is connected with Germanic and Italo celtic languages and at some point came out of the Near east many experts believe that now but 3-4 years ago many people though R1b in west Europe was Palaeolithic.

[Fire Haired]

U3 is concentrated in the Dead Sea area as it should be. U3a is the most common mtdna in my dad's Relative Finder, many U3 individuals still occupy this ancestral homeland due to a founder effect, population growth from only a few individuals.

I'm happy to have more information about U2e; seems Mesolithic European and not Indo-European. I'd like to know where it actually peaks in Europe besides certain parts of Russia.
U3 defintley originated in the Near east and has pretty much only stayed their till probably Neolithic. Maybe it did originate around the Dead sea but who knows. Is ur dad Jewish? U2e defintley originated in Palaeolithic Europe I don't think it is random 37,985 year old mtDNA sample from Russia had U2 and Europe today has its own branch U2e and that it is popular in Mesloithic European hunter gathers. That 37,985 year old U2 may have had U2e if not defintley is connected with it and U2 has probably been in Europe for over 40,000 years and formed into U2e while in Europe.

[Black Wolf]

Maybe U3 is a mtDNA haplogroup found in Europeans today that we can definitely say came during the Neolithic or later.

[Tchek]

All he says is he is Celto-Germanic and lives in Brussels, Belgium and has been in every country in Europe. The reason is probably he doesn't want people to think he is biased towards any country or haplogroup and I am pretty much 100% sure he is English.

I think Maciamo is really Belgian, from the southern part.

[Graham]

Oh nice, my Gran is U4a. Outwith my K.

Good to see a map.

[Fire Haired]

[Q
UOTE=SveinD;16724]I have absolutely no information on the distribution of hair colour in Scandinavia so I cannot comment on that, but your statement that the Saami are in the majority in the north is not correct.

Quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saami_people "According to the Swedish Sami Parliament, the Sami population of Norway is 40,000. If all people who speak Sami or have a parent, grandparent, or great-grandparent who speaks or spoke Sami are included, the number reaches 70,000. As of 2005, 12,538 people were registered to vote in the election for the Sami Parliament in Norway".

The population in the three northernmost counties in Norway, where the majority of the Saami live, is about 470,000 so even using the 70,000 number above the Saami population represent less than 20%. In Sweden with a much larger population the Saami percentage will be even smaller. I don't have any figures for Finland and it is possible that some of the northern areas there will have a majority Saami population - depending how you define Saami of course, but may be someone from Finland can supply the correct numbers.

I have been through the 500+ mtDNA results in the FTDNA Norway project, but people have not been very good at filling in the location of their oldest known maternal ancestor and there are only 25 entries that can be identified with the three northern counties so the sample is far too small to draw any conclusion. The largest numbers however are U5=6, H1=5, V=2, J=2, H3=2, make of that what you will.

Keep posting Fire Haired![/QUOTE]
Here is a red hair map of Europe and you can see especially in Scandinavia it is connected with R1b1a2a1a1 S21 and also I2a2 which proto Germanic speakers got from native central Europeans then brought it to Scandinavia.
http://www.theapricity.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif
http://www.theapricity.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

Also here are some light hair and eye maps of Europe you can see in the northerneastern tip of Scandinavia it as dark as central France, Iberia, Italy, etc.
http://mappery.com/maps/Europe-Blond-Hair-Map.mediumthumb.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Oxi6Jd_L9hmp7M&tbnid=vXf-6Ih3aCOiyM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmappery.com%2FEurope-Blond-Hair-Map&ei=KvpiUvuIA-m4yAHTzIGQBw&psig=AFQjCNGu7k7ySlC38VUgvckiYpYqyNuOsg&ust=1382304644823323)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Light_Eyes_Map.png (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Ok9QpYkVDN_uIM&tbnid=l2WiWEwnOK1AtM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.m.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHazel _eyes&ei=RPpiUp-5MsSyyAG-sICwCA&psig=AFQjCNGu7k7ySlC38VUgvckiYpYqyNuOsg&ust=1382304644823323)

[Artek]

Oh nice, my Gran is U4a. Outwith my K.

Good to see a map.
My maternal line is also U4a(U4a1b, more precisely), descending from this hotspot in the Benelux.
I smell a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swifterbant_culture

So it's possible that U4 fellows could've looked like this ladhttp://i37.tinypic.com/15sa16o.jpg

[cally]

Thanks :)

[Artek]

My attempt to localise ancient U4 on a map and a timeframe. It will be improved, anyway.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=43579&d=1390224325

[Yuffayur]

Click here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29159-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-U4) for original Eupeida thread of U4
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U4-map.png

I can kind of understand the connection Maciamo see's with Y DNA R1a and mtDNA U4. But the R1a and U4 ratio is not constant. If a people group has low R1a but the highest R1a in their area and good amount of U4 Maciamo uses them as evidence. Usually Maciamo theory's make a lot of sense but so far what he says about his mtDNa maps is total BS. He generalizes Indo Europeans for example in Iberia he should be saying Celts. And the early Indo Europeans around Russia, Ukriane, and Caucus 6,000-8,000ybp were not unified genetically. Proof of this is 5,000 and 6,000 year old Yamna people in southern Russia and Ukraine were very dark eyed(click here) (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/neue-blicke-auf-zivilisa-tionen-der.html). But Andronovo culture(3,800-3,400ybp) in south central Siberia descended from Yamna and probably spoke Indo Iranian language had mainly light eyes and light hair same with pigmentation genes from all Indo Iranians in Asia from bronze and iron ages(Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1431-INdo-Iranian-and-Tocherian-DNA)). They came straight out of Europe 5,000 years ago there were no light Europeans in Asia they could have inter married with.

U4 is pretty popular in Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers(Ancient Eurasian DNA (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml)), much more popular than anywhere in the world today. There is also samples of U4 in Neolithic Europe before mainly R1a1a1b1 Z283 Indo European Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to Balto Slavic) spread in eastern and central Europe, and Scandinavia. So probably the vast majority of U4 in Europe are just Mesolithic hunter gather lineages. R1a1a M17 most likely originated in Europe(click here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Feurogenes.blogspot.com%2F2011%2F1 1%2Forigins-of-r1a1a1-in-or-near-europe-aka.html&ei=uaJhUveGK4WMyQHuiYC4DA&usg=AFQjCNG2HtisWymZcDBMZY344-WXI_868A&sig2=aRljg7-hA6QHuwXjn5p3mw)) and probably is descended from a hunter gather lineage and its decendant R1a1a1 M417 spread with Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages and possibly partly with other Indo European languages. So with this Macimo makes an argument that U4 Is connected with R1a because and is own explanation on how it could still have partly spread with R1a he should say R1a1a1 M417 to be more specific.


Click here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29160-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-U3) for original Eupeida Thread of U3.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U3-map.png

Once again Maciamo generalizes "The Indo Europeans" and the R1b branch. When really it only seems Germanic and Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 and even if not it is not R1b its R1b1a P297 as the oldest branch. And he cant generalize a R1b branch of Indo Europeans it not that simple!!! But I do agree with him that since Germanic and Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 ancestor subclades R1b1a2a1a L23, R1b1a2a M269, or R1b1a P297 migrated to Europe through the Near east so that could be the source of U3 in far western Europe.
Click here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29163-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-U2)for original Eupeida Thread of U2.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U2-map.png

I seriously am shocked by what Maciamo said about U2. There are many U2e samples from Mesolithic Europe(Ancient Eurasian DNA (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml)) proving U2e in Europe is not Indo European and not connected with Y DNA R1a and R1b like he theorized. I really cant believe he tried to connect it with R1a and R1b he generalized the two haplogroups once again. R1b1a2a1a L11 began to spread in western Europe just 4,500-5,000ybp with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages.. R1a1a1b1 Z283 did not become very popular in eastern and central Europe, and Scandinavia until Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to Balto Slavic) 5,000ybp. I guess that the common ancestor to Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 and Corded ware R1a1a1b1 Z283 would have originated around Russia and Ukriane and R1a may have originated in Europe around 18,000ybp. But R1a and R1b did not become widespread in Europe till very recently. I would connect the 37,985 year old U2 sample in Russia to European the origin of European U2e and may have had U2e. And since U2 is so old it probably had split a very long time ago over 40,000 years ago from the U2 subclades popular in south asia.

Are they any map of U6 mt-dna?

[Graham]

My attempt to localise ancient U4 on a map and a timeframe. It will be improved, anyway.


Znzn go and not thumb down people for no reasons. It was a decent post.

[Fire Haired]

Are they any map of U6 mt-dna?

I haven't seen one.

You have typical north African mtDNA and Y DNA.

[Unome]

Looks like I am a product of R1a man and U4b woman. :book2:

Are there any 'R1' men and 'U' women haplogroup pairs on this forum? (Fire Haired is one, cuz, Artek)

[Yuffayur]

I haven't seen one.

You have typical north African mtDNA and Y DNA.

Yeah I know that, but I want to know the percentage of U6 in Europe.

[Fire Haired]

Looks like I am a product of R1a man and U4b woman. :book2:

Are there any 'R1' men and 'U' women haplogroup pairs on this forum? (Fire Haired is one, cuz, Artek)

There are plenty of samples of people with Y DNA R and mtDNA U in ancient DNA. Probably around 10% of modern west Europeans have this mix. You forgot to mention all K which is really U8b2 so Grahm is also a member. You, me, Artex, and callmyname have very ancient European lineages. U5 and U4 where the two most dominate haplogroups in European hunter gatherers but Grahm has K a farmer haplogroup that probably arrived about 9,000 years ago. R descendants probably didn't become widespread in Europe till the copper age. So far only Y DNA I and C-V20 have been found in Mesolithic Europe, F-96 can maybe also be connected as the original Y DNA of U5, U4, and U2e people.

MA1(24,000 year old Siberian) who had R* and U*(his own distinct lineage), both R1a1a's(mtDNA K1 and U5b1a'b) from Corded ware culture in Eulau Germany dating to 2,600BC, One of two the R1b's(one had K1) from Bell beaker culture in Kromsdorf, Germany dating to 2,600-2,500BC, both R1a1 early Indo Iranians(U2e and U5a1) in Siberia from Andronovo culture dating to 1,400-1,800BC, One of two of the R1a1's(U) in Germany from Urnfield culture dating to 1,000BC, an R1a1 Mongol(probably Indo Iranian descended and had mtDNA U2el) from Mongolia dating to 300-100bc, an R(XR1a) sample in northern Spain from 807-974AD also had mtDNA U5a, an R1a1-M458 samples in Germany from 1200ad also had mtDNA K.

[Fire Haired]

Yeah I know that, but I want to know the percentage of U6 in Europe.

Then you should go to Wikpedia's U page because they have sources with studies that may have percentages. Just look it up you will probably find something.

[cally]

You, me, Artex, and callmyname have very ancient European lineages. U5 and U4 where the two most dominate haplogroups in European hunter gatherers but Grahm has K a farmer haplogroup that probably arrived about 9,000 years ago.

What about U4d ?

[Artek]

What about U4d ?
Some U4d's were confirmed in here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitted_Ware_culture

[cally]

Some U4d's were confirmed in here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitted_Ware_culture

thank you, i was reading about that, interesting :)

[Black Wolf]

There are plenty of samples of people with Y DNA R and mtDNA U in ancient DNA. Probably around 10% of modern west Europeans have this mix. You forgot to mention all K which is really U8b2 so Grahm is also a member. You, me, Artex, and callmyname have very ancient European lineages. U5 and U4 where the two most dominate haplogroups in European hunter gatherers but Grahm has K a farmer haplogroup that probably arrived about 9,000 years ago. R descendants probably didn't become widespread in Europe till the copper age. So far only Y DNA I and C-V20 have been found in Mesolithic Europe, F-96 can maybe also be connected as the original Y DNA of U5, U4, and U2e people.

MA1(24,000 year old Siberian) who had R* and U*(his own distinct lineage), both R1a1a's(mtDNA K1 and U5b1a'b) from Corded ware culture in Eulau Germany dating to 2,600BC, One of two the R1b's(one had K1) from Bell beaker culture in Kromsdorf, Germany dating to 2,600-2,500BC, both R1a1 early Indo Iranians(U2e and U5a1) in Siberia from Andronovo culture dating to 1,400-1,800BC, One of two of the R1a1's(U) in Germany from Urnfield culture dating to 1,000BC, an R1a1 Mongol(probably Indo Iranian descended and had mtDNA U2el) from Mongolia dating to 300-100bc, an R(XR1a) sample in northern Spain from 807-974AD also had mtDNA U5a, an R1a1-M458 samples in Germany from 1200ad also had mtDNA K.

Ahem you forgot me buddy lol! :D

[Fire Haired]

Ahem you forgot me buddy lol! :D

You have Y DNA J2a-Z2227 not some form of R.

[Azalea]

My maternal line is also U4a(U4a1b, more precisely), descending from this hotspot in the Benelux.
I smell a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swifterbant_culture

So it's possible that U4 fellows could've looked like this lad
Hey, another one! My grandfather's mtDNA is U4a1b. Tried to found more information about this haplogroup but it seems a pretty rare one..

*Oh wait, he is U4a2b, not 1....

[Azalea]

Looks like I am a product of R1a man and U4b woman. :book2:

Are there any 'R1' men and 'U' women haplogroup pairs on this forum? (Fire Haired is one, cuz, Artek)

My grandpa, thus indirect me. R1b1b2a-U4a2b.

[Black Wolf]

You have Y DNA J2a-Z2227 not some form of R.

I'm talking about mtDNA. You said ''You, me, Artex, and callmyname have very ancient European lineages.''

[Jackson]

I wonder where my U5a1 came from, group seems to have been generally more in the east during the Mesolithic, but then by the Neolithic it's as far away as Spain as well.

[Fire Haired]

I'm talking about mtDNA. You said ''You, me, Artex, and callmyname have very ancient European lineages.''

Sorry.

You and I probably have lineages from Mesolithic central-west Europe. The Y DNA haplogroups of Loschbour, Motola12, and La Brana-1 combined are close to non existent(around 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% at the most) in north-central-west Europe today and anywhere in Europe. The mtDNA of Mesolithic north-central-Europe survived I guess pretty well maybe above 5% or even as high as 10%. Y DNA I2a1, I2a2, and I1 all may have all originated in north-central-west Europe though.

[Fire Haired]

Hey, another one! My grandfather's mtDNA is U4a1b. Tried to found more information about this haplogroup but it seems a pretty rare one..

*Oh wait, he is U4a2b, not 1....

I had no idea what Y DNA and mtDNA haplogroup your grandfather has. There are millions and millions of people today and there have been billions in history who have Y DNA R and mtDNA U.

[Azalea]

It was not a random statement but a respons to Unome's question. No need to be a douch, dude.

[Black Wolf]

Sorry.

You and I probably have lineages from Mesolithic central-west Europe. The Y DNA haplogroups of Loschbour, Motola12, and La Brana-1 combined are close to non existent(around 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% at the most) in north-central-west Europe today and anywhere in Europe. The mtDNA of Mesolithic north-central-Europe survived I guess pretty well maybe above 5% or even as high as 10%. Y DNA I2a1, I2a2, and I1 all may have all originated in north-central-west Europe though.

Has La Brana's Y-DNA been confirmed as being C-V20 now?

[Black Wolf]

I wonder where my U5a1 came from, group seems to have been generally more in the east during the Mesolithic, but then by the Neolithic it's as far away as Spain as well.

I think it is probably safe to say that your mtDNA line was probably in Eastern Europe during the Mesolithic.

[Fire Haired]

Has La Brana's Y-DNA been confirmed as being C-V20 now?

No, but his paper is suppose to be out by next Monday so the 27th.