24,000 year old Y DNA R AND MTDNA U FOUND IN SIBERIA!!!!

[Fire Haired]

Here is the original article Surprising aDNA results from Paleolithic Siberia (including Y-DNA R) (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/10/surprising-adna-results-from.html).


According to leaks from the Paleoamerican Odyssey conference (http://paleoamericanodyssey.com/abstracts.html), a 24,000-year-old Siberian sample from the Mal'ta archeological site, near Lake Baikal, appears genetically like a mix between modern Europeans, Amerindians and Oceanians. Apparently his Y-DNA belongs to haplogroup R and mtDNA to haplogroup U. Moreover, judging by his pigmentation genetic markers, he was swarthier than Oetzi the Iceman. For more information and updates see here (http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2013/10/paleoamerican-odyssey-conference-ancient-malta-dna-back-migrations-to-the-old-world-and-hallway-discussions/#comment-22946) and here (http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/paleoamericanodyssey-tweets-on-24000.html).

If true, these results obviously have major implications for our understanding of how both the New and Old Worlds were peopled. Indeed, if Y-chromosome haplogroup R was present in Siberia 24,000 years ago, then it's likely it was also present in Europe at about the same time, because of long distance migrations by hunter-gatherers across the forests and steppes of Eurasia (see here (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/european-specific-mtdna-c-from.html)). Also worth noting is that the vast majority of Paleolithic and Mesolithic mtDNA sequences from Europe belong to mtDNA haplogroup U.

Could it be, then, that Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans largely belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1?
I have been saying for so long Y DNA R is Mongliod and originated probably in Siberia but it seemed no one believed me. I also have been saying R got to Caucasians through inter marriage around 20,000ybp developing into R1b somewhere around the Near east and R1a possibly in Europe and R2 around south asia and Iran. This is now prove of Caucasian-Mongolid Y DNA R inter marriage from 24,000ybp!!! I have thought that it would be the Mongliods migrating east into the Near east and Europe but this mtDNa U is prove of Caucasians migrating east and inter marrying with Mongliod Y DNA R. I think the article made a terrible mistake it is not likely R was in Europe 24,000ybp because it was in Siberia are you freaking kidding me. He is trying to connect this with Europe not realizing R1a1a1b1 Z283 did not became widespread and dominate in eastern Europe till Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to Balto Slavic) just 5,000ybp and R1b1a2a1a L11 did not begin to spread in western Europe with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages till just 4,500-5,000ybp. If anything the mtDNA U I think is connected with the Near east not Europe and might be connected with Native American mtDNA X2. They have their own unique subclade X2g and they also have subclade X2a which has been found in Israeli Druze.

They also added that he was darker than Otzie(5,300 year old copper age farmer alps Italy) who had brown hair and brown eyes and most likely pale skin since his closest relatives modern Europeans by far mainly Sardinia do. His darkness should not be a surprise because of Native Americans who migrated out of Siberia over 20,000ybp are very dark.

[curupira]

That's very interesting.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It's proto mongoloid, though. We know already, like I have said a million times, R and N and Q are all related. That's just a fact. However that doesn't mean they look like modern day mongols, it actually means the opposite.

But I guess this probably busts the idea that r1b came to europe very recently. Ooops. Maciama and other nordicists and EU propagandists will be crying for days.

If he really is English, then it must be an anti-Irish sentiment. I did not think he was english but scando, but englis is probably more likely.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

This is fascinating & keeps R haplogroup in the picture as a Y haplogroup of Cro Magnon man!

[Smeagol]

According to leaks from the Paleoamerican Odyssey conference, a 24,000-year-old Siberian sample from the Mal'ta archeological site, near Lake Baikal, appears genetically like a mix between modern Europeans, Amerindians and Oceanians

How do they come to this conclusion.:confused:

[Prisoner Of Ice]

How do they come to this conclusion.:confused:

They seem to be looking at autosomals, too. They are doing a full genome sequence, I think.

[Fire Haired]

It's proto mongoloid, though. We know already, like I have said a million times, R and N and Q are all related. That's just a fact. However that doesn't mean they look like modern day mongols, it actually means the opposite.

But I guess this probably busts the idea that r1b came to europe very recently. Ooops. Maciama and other nordicists and EU propagandists will be crying for days.

If he really is English, then it must be an anti-Irish sentiment. I did not think he was english but scando, but englis is probably more likely.

You should look at the Human Y DNA tree look it up. Y DNA P is the father of Q and R and Y DNA K(xLT) is the father of NO which is the father of N and O. And Its also the father of Y DNA M and S which are popular in Papue New Gunie. The recent origin of R1b in western Europe is proved that almost all R1b in western Europe is under young subclade R1b1a2a1a L11 estimated to be 5,000-6,000 years old. It is from spread of Germanic Italo Celts.

You cant define proto Mongliod he was dark skinned like modern native Americans who are Mongliod.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Yes, you are correct I have mispoken. But everything from IJK down is very separate from the origin of asians and blacks. So if they because asian or darker then it happened later due to mixing.

[Fire Haired]

How do they come to this conclusion.:confused:
The Oceania thing is surprising. If the European thing is true and they have austomal DNA it might prove that globe13 "North Euro" which is the only group unique to Europe and dominate in Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers existed 24,000 years ago and the mtDNA U is from Europe. But I think they may have assumed it was part European and it might be related Caucasian admixture from near east.

[Jackson]

Very interesting!

I don't see how finding it in Siberia makes it exist in Europe. Of course R had to be somewhere at this time. It's interesting that R is pretty close to Q which is also Siberian. It wouldn't surprise me if R was in Europe pre-LGM, but it would be surprising if it was the direct ancestor of modern European R. There may have been multiple incursions of R into Europe, and modern R a result of a more recent one.

[blogen]

Nothing surprising.

The R (R1a and R1b) origin from the original swarthy Caucasoids from Central Asia/Middle East. The pale skin is a very young invention in Europe (6000-12,000BC) (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color)&p=1890514&viewfull=1#post1890514) and there was a very early Europo-Mongoloid mixing in Siberia (probably the Baikal (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/88/t95h.jpg) and maybe the Yenisei type (http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6024/e93d.jpg) origin from this).

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Because it means it wasn't coming out of india or iran with the indo-europeans. We basically knew that wasn't the case anyway and west coast of norway looks like it's been r1a for forever and a day.


The Oceania thing is surprising. If the European thing is true and they have austomal DNA it might prove that globe13 "North Euro" which is the only group unique to Europe and dominate in Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers existed 24,000 years ago and the mtDNA U is from Europe. But I think they may have assumed it was part European and it might be related Caucasian admixture from near east.

Because we don't know where any element in a modern population came from, we have to guess. So markers that are used for oceania might have nothing to do with them at all especially if selection is involved. They could all come from denisovians or something.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

What is interesting is that R1a is older in Europe & South Asia but dated later in Siberia / Central Asia!

I have long suspected that R1a haplogroup started in Siberia & depopulated from Siberia with half spreading to Poland & the other half spreading to India to seek refuge from the glacial ice age.

Maybe this is support of that!

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Nothing surprising.

The R (R1a and R1b) origin from the original swarthy Caucasoids from Central Asia/Middle East. The pale skin is a very young invention in Europe (6000-12,000BC) (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color)&p=1890514&viewfull=1#post1890514) and there was a very early Europo-Mongoloid mixing in Siberia (probably the Baikal (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/88/t95h.jpg) and maybe the Yenisei type (http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6024/e93d.jpg) origin from this).

When alleles are fixed doesn't mean much. Mostly people are white because of a lack of genes, not because they have whiteness genes. In Africa there's dozens of genes for skin tone and thickness and they are all dominant. That's why it's so hard to breed it out.

[Fire Haired]

Very interesting!

I don't see how finding it in Siberia makes it exist in Europe. Of course R had to be somewhere at this time. It's interesting that R is pretty close to Q which is also Siberian. It wouldn't surprise me if R was in Europe pre-LGM, but it would be surprising if it was the direct ancestor of modern European R. There may have been multiple incursions of R into Europe, and modern R a result of a more recent one.

You should look up the human Y DNA tree. My opinon is R1b1a2a1a L11 spread in western Europe starting 4,500-5,000ybp with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages. It's estimated to be 5,000-6,000 years old and its subclades found in western Europe even younger. Add that to no R1b results from over 20 Y DNA samples in southern France and northern Spain from 5,000 and 7,000 ybp where today R1b1a2a1a2 P312 is around 60-80%.

[Fire Haired]

Nothing surprising.

The R (R1a and R1b) origin from the original swarthy Caucasoids from Central Asia/Middle East. The pale skin is a very young invention in Europe (6000-12,000BC) (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color)&p=1890514&viewfull=1#post1890514) and there was a very early Europo-Mongoloid mixing in Siberia (probably the Baikal (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/88/t95h.jpg) and maybe the Yenisei type (http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6024/e93d.jpg) origin from this).

I went over this with you in there Origin of European palness (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color)). The genes they based the theory that pale skin spread in Europe from 6,000-12,000ybp those genes are about as popular in near easterns and north Africans and Europeans, And they claimed they became popular in Europeans In that time frame and is what caused pale skin now we know they were wrong and have to start over again. Why do you say recent invention no one invented it and I know it excites some like you to say pale skin which define the slang name for European people is recent. Austosmal DNA of Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers show they had almost only "North Euro" in globe13 before farming began to spread in Europe 9,000ybp possibly all Europeans had 100%. North Euro today shows strong correlation with fair hair and eyes in Europe and overall the palest Europeans. While groups that came with the spread of farming 6,000-9,000ybp Med, west Asian, and southwest Asian correlate with darker haired and eyed and tannish skinned Europeans. Which probably means before farming began to spread 9,000ybp Europe was much more pale than today and that dominate pale skin in Europeans it is hard to say but definitely goes back to the LGM.

Y DNA R is a Mongliod haplogroup mtDNA U Caucasian these sample is deep in Siberia not in Europe. Look at Native Americans their ancestors left Siberia over 20,000ybp and have very dark skin. This tells nothing about the skin color of Europeans 24,000ybp. And does not mean ancestors of other Mongliods were dark skinned at this time.

[Jackson]

You should look up the human Y DNA tree. My opinon is R1b1a2a1a L11 spread in western Europe starting 4,500-5,000ybp with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages. It's estimated to be 5,000-6,000 years old and its subclades found in western Europe even younger. Add that to no R1b results from over 20 Y DNA samples in southern France and northern Spain from 5,000 and 7,000 ybp where today R1b1a2a1a2 P312 is around 60-80%.

Indeed. And of course we know R1b was in Germany with the Bell Beakers, so that gives a point of reference to work from.

I've seen the y-dna tree a lot, don't worry.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

You should look up the human Y DNA tree. My opinon is R1b1a2a1a L11 spread in western Europe starting 4,500-5,000ybp with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages. It's estimated to be 5,000-6,000 years old and its subclades found in western Europe even younger. Add that to no R1b results from over 20 Y DNA samples in southern France and northern Spain from 5,000 and 7,000 ybp where today R1b1a2a1a2 P312 is around 60-80%.

Some of them spread west but r1b is so dominant in west it's implausible it is a newcomer. They just haven't sampled any huntergatherers in the west yet. Once they find some it will be r1b result.

[Fire Haired]

Yes, you are correct I have mispoken. But everything from IJK down is very separate from the origin of asians and blacks. So if they because asian or darker then it happened later due to mixing.

Just saying blacks is not a good definition anymore since Oceania who also have black skin and nappy hair are very related to Mongliods(globe13 (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/)). It would make sense that Mongliods ancestors once had black skin and nappy hair then it changed to dark reddish skin and straight hair and too pale skin and all slanted eyes.

[Fire Haired]

What is interesting is that R1a is older in Europe & South Asia but dated later in Siberia / Central Asia!

I have long suspected that R1a haplogroup started in Siberia & depopulated from Siberia with half spreading to Poland & the other half spreading to India to seek refuge from the glacial ice age.

Maybe this is support of that!

This is not support of that Y DNA R1a1a1b S224 spread with Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages out of Ukriane and Russia. Suspected Bronze and Iron age Indo Iranian cultures in central asia and Siberia had pale skin, mainly light hair and eyes and 16 out of 17 y DNa R1a1. They arrived in Siberia and west china before they ever got to south asia just 3,000-3,500ybp. R1a1a1 M417 most likely originated around Ukraine and Russia before that who knows.

[Fire Haired]

Some of them spread west but r1b is so dominant in west it's implausible it is a newcomer. They just haven't sampled any huntergatherers in the west yet. Once they find some it will be r1b result.

That's not true like I said almost 100% of western European R1b is under R1b1a2a1a L11 a young estimated to be 5,000-6,000 year old subclade. And almost no one has original L11 but even younger subclades. No R1b from Neolithic west Europe is even more evidence. It spread rapidly with Germanic and Italo Celtic tribes.

[blogen]

I went over this

You did not have truth then. First Pale skin invention = late Mesolithic peoples in Europe (Lapponoids and Cromagnoids), but there was a second wave possibly, the Nordics and other exceptionally blond and red caracters are possibly depigmentated neolithic swarties (the original R carriers).

[daedal1]

Here is the original article Surprising aDNA results from Paleolithic Siberia (including Y-DNA R) (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/10/surprising-adna-results-from.html).


I have been saying for so long Y DNA R is Mongliod and originated probably in Siberia but it seemed no one believed me. I also have been saying R got to Caucasians through inter marriage around 20,000ybp developing into R1b somewhere around the Near east and R1a possibly in Europe and R2 around south asia and Iran. This is now prove of Caucasian-Mongolid Y DNA R inter marriage from 24,000ybp!!! I have thought that it would be the Mongliods migrating east into the Near east and Europe but this mtDNa U is prove of Caucasians migrating east and inter marrying with Mongliod Y DNA R. I think the article made a terrible mistake it is not likely R was in Europe 24,000ybp because it was in Siberia are you freaking kidding me. He is trying to connect this with Europe not realizing R1a1a1b1 Z283 did not became widespread and dominate in eastern Europe till Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to Balto Slavic) just 5,000ybp and R1b1a2a1a L11 did not begin to spread in western Europe with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages till just 4,500-5,000ybp. If anything the mtDNA U I think is connected with the Near east not Europe and might be connected with Native American mtDNA X2. They have their own unique subclade X2g and they also have subclade X2a which has been found in Israeli Druze.

They also added that he was darker than Otzie(5,300 year old copper age farmer alps Italy) who had brown hair and brown eyes and most likely pale skin since his closest relatives modern Europeans by far mainly Sardinia do. His darkness should not be a surprise because of Native Americans who migrated out of Siberia over 20,000ybp are very dark.

If R is Mongoloid where did the Tocharians (Tarim mummies were 100% r1a) and Scythians get their nordic features from?

[SobieskisavedEurope]

This is not support of that Y DNA R1a1a1b S224 spread with Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages out of Ukriane and Russia. Suspected Bronze and Iron age Indo Iranian cultures in central asia and Siberia had pale skin, mainly light hair and eyes and 16 out of 17 y DNa R1a1. They arrived in Siberia and west china before they ever got to south asia just 3,000-3,500ybp. R1a1a1 M417 most likely originated around Ukraine and Russia before that who knows.

But, Poland has been found to have older R1a than Ukraine & Russia!

Balto-Slavic languages are the closest languages to to the Indo-European root or Pre Indo-Europeans!

[curupira]

And almost no one has original L11 but even younger subclades.

Mine is!

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Just saying blacks is not a good definition anymore since Oceania who also have black skin and nappy hair are very related to Mongliods(globe13 (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/)). It would make sense that Mongliods ancestors once had black skin and nappy hair then it changed to dark reddish skin and straight hair and too pale skin and all slanted eyes.

Black is better because it's more accurate. They are not SSA or mongol.

Like I said a million times you go can easily go black, it's almost impossible to go the other direction. Even 10% black genes will show up in darker colors.

If it happened in that direction then it would have to have taken a very long time and happened further back than 24k years. Only way that could happen is in very small groups with genetic drift which then through a founder effect expanded a lot. Which basically means it happened during out of africa. Otherwise no amount of mixing would fully remove it. Problem is, at 24k years ago they would have to have been out of africa a long time, so that oceanic mix would never have come out. So if they were black then it's just impossible for them to lose those genes in that time.

[Fire Haired]

You did not have truth then. First Pale skin invention = late Mesolithic peoples in Europe (Lapponoids and Cromagnoids), but there was a second wave possibly, the Nordics and other exceptionally blond and red caracters are possibly depigmentated neolithic swarties.
You sound like a conspiracy theorist who are the Nordic's, Cromagnoids, Lapponids their as real as leprechauns. Cro magnon is just a name given to Palaeolithic European remains. How do you define Nordics with DNA. Red hair is not common in Scandnavia and gets less popular the more north and less Germanic you go. Proto Germanic speakers arrived with R1b1a2a1a1 S21 about 4,000ybp at the latest and really brought red hair to Scandinavia or at least raised it to over 1%. It is an assumption that red hair is connected with blonde hair which it is not at all in distribution. There are mainly blonde haired people like Estonians or Slavic Russians with almost no red hair. Palness in Europe without a doubt its origin is pre Neolithic hunter gathers who traced their ancestry to before the LGM so over 26,600ybp.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

If R is Mongoloid where did the Tocharians (Tarim mummies were 100% r1a) and Scythians get their nordic features from?

They would have had to interbreed with white only women for 8 generations, but I doubt that happened. Obvious answer, which we see in history too, is mongols were much lighter until they mixed with south asian and middle eastern african mixed slaves.

[Fire Haired]

Black is better because it's more accurate. They are not SSA or mongol.

Like I said a million times you go can easily go black, it's almost impossible to go the other direction. Even 10% black genes will show up in darker colors.

If it happened in that direction then it would have to have taken a very long time and happened further back than 24k years. Only way that could happen is in very small groups with genetic drift which then through a founder effect expanded a lot. Which basically means it happened during out of africa. Otherwise no amount of mixing would fully remove it. Problem is, at 24k years ago they would have to have been out of africa a long time, so that oceanic mix would never have come out. So if they were black then it's just impossible for them to lose those genes in that time.
The genes behind all of this is to complicated to make claims with little amount of understanding we have of how they work. And yes Oceania look pretty much identical to blacks in Africa so I don't think black is a good term for Sub Saharan Africans.

[Fire Haired]

Mine is!

You actually probably have a subclade the test you took doesn't test for or a unidentified subclade. I thought the same at first but now it seems I am probably P312 or its subclade Df27.

[Fire Haired]

But, Poland has been found to have older R1a than Ukraine & Russia!

Balto-Slavic languages are the closest languages to to the Indo-European root or Pre Indo-Europeans!

What sources and evidence do you have for any of that. Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 is a brother clade to Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 both came out of Yamna culture in Ukriane and Russia both of their ancient Y DNA results show R1a1. R1a1a FTDNA (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.familytreedna.com%2Fpublic%2F r1a%2Fdefault.aspx&ei=sCBjUuvSNanYyQH8joGgCg&usg=AFQjCNF0ys_LAn-8I8c7XszBljvcOUuzYA&sig2=0yYxb2er3wxr1fMni_xFCA). Its just a paternal lineage.

[curupira]

No, my paternal line is actually on the ht35 project, it is really L11+ and negative for all downstream markers, I got tested on family tree dna years ago (it is both U106- and P312-). It is the real deal! :)


You actually probably have a subclade the test you took doesn't test for or a unidentified subclade. I thought the same at first but now it seems I am probably P312 or its subclade Df27.

[daedal1]

You did not have truth then. First Pale skin invention = late Mesolithic peoples in Europe (Lapponoids and Cromagnoids), but there was a second wave possibly, the Nordics and other exceptionally blond and red caracters are possibly depigmentated neolithic swarties (the original R carriers).

This is probably likely. Even depigmented middle easterners have different features from northern/central euros. Depigmented Middle Easterners look similar to caucasus people.

[Fire Haired]

If R is Mongoloid where did the Tocharians (Tarim mummies were 100% r1a) and Scythians get their nordic features from?

Their from 20,00 years later!!!!!! During that time R1 lineage R1a1 M17 had found it place in Ukriane and Russia. Heavy R1a1 people started Dnieper Donets and them Yamna culture. The spread of the ancestral languages of Tocherian and Indo Iranian came out of Yamna into asia that's where the tarim mummies come from. Ancient Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1431-INdo-Iranian-and-Tocherian-DNA)

[Fire Haired]

No, my paternal line is actually on the ht35 project, it is really L11+ and negative for all downstream markers, I got tested on family tree dna years ago (it is both U106- and P312-). It is the real deal! :)

wow did you know they found a new brotherclade to P312 and U106 its DF100 clikc here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29119-New-Brother-clade-of-R1b-P312-and-U106-DF100). But I doubt you have it you might be apart of an extremely rare lineage or you really are L11*. My paternal line goes back to Britain I am not sure where. I am U106-, L21-, U152-, and Df19- that is almost all R1b in Britain. I am probably Df27 which is actulley more widespread than people though at first.

[daedal1]

Their from 20,00 years later!!!!!! During that time R1 lineage R1a1 M17 had found it place in Ukriane and Russia. Heavy R1a1 people started Dnieper Donets and them Yamna culture. The spread of the ancestral languages of Tocherian and Indo Iranian came out of Yamna into asia that's where the tarim mummies come from. Ancient Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1431-INdo-Iranian-and-Tocherian-DNA)

Your claim is that nordics were spawned by j2 or i?

[blogen]

You sound like a conspiracy theorist who are the Nordic's, Cromagnoids, Lapponids their as real as leprechauns. Cro magnon is just a name given to Palaeolithic European remains. How do you define Nordics with DNA. Red hair is not common in Scandnavia and gets less popular the more north and less Germanic you go. Proto Germanic speakers arrived with R1b1a2a1a1 S21 about 4,000ybp at the latest and really brought red hair to Scandinavia or at least raised it to over 1%. It is an assumption that red hair is connected with blonde hair which it is not at all in distribution. There are mainly blonde haired people like Estonians or Slavic Russians with almost no red hair. Palness in Europe without a doubt its origin is pre Neolithic hunter gathers who traced their ancestry to before the LGM so over 26,600ybp.

There is not genetic evidence onto early pale skin in the Middle East, where the proto-Nordics and proto-Mediterranids lived before the neolithic expansion since there was never a pale skin colour there. But, there is an evidence from Siberia, the early R carriers were swarties. And there is an other fact, the descendants of the Mesolithic peoples in Scandinavia are Saami Lapponoids and the descendants of the neolithic newcomers are German Nordids, Mediterranids, etc. So this swarties come with the R1b and depigmented in North-Central Europe in the time in the Neolithic. Simply, no earlier date for this. This is the origin of the non Cromagnoid (and Baltid, etc.) blonds and reds.

The genetics the anthropology and the archeology tell an identical story.

[curupira]

Yes, I do, but the test has not been made available at Family Tree DNA so far. Mine comes from a German great great great grandfather on the paternal line, from the Hunsrück, in Germany.


wow did you know they found a new brotherclade to P312 and U106 its DF100 clikc here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29119-New-Brother-clade-of-R1b-P312-and-U106-DF100). But I doubt you have it you might be apart of an extremely rare lineage or you really are L11*. My paternal line goes back to Britain I am not sure where. I am U106-, L21-, U152-, and Df19- that is almost all R1b in Britain. I am probably Df27 which is actulley more widespread than people though at first.

[daedal1]

There is not genetic evidence onto early pale skin in the Middle East, where the proto-Nordics and proto-Mediterranids lived before the neolithic expansion since there was never a pale skin colour there. But, there is an evidence from Siberia, the early R carriers were swarties. And there is an other fact, the descendants of the Mesolithic peoples in Scandinavia are Saami Lapponoids and the descendants of the neolithic newcomers are German Nordids, Mediterranids, etc. So this swarties come with the R1b and depigmented in North-Central Europe in the time in the Neolithic. Simply, no earlier date for this. This is the origin of the non Cromagnoid (and Baltid, etc.) blonds and reds.

The genetics the anthropology and the archeology tell an identical story.

Even Abos can have blond hair, but for eye color, even Afghanistan has been suggested as a possible origin, which would still keep Central Asia relevant.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3323607/Blue-eyes-result-of-ancient-genetic-mutation.html

[blogen]

This is probably likely. Even depigmented middle easterners have different features from northern/central euros. Depigmented Middle Easterners look similar to caucasus people.

There was a debate once in here who was this guy. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?94924-Classify-Aryans-Yamna-Culture-Men) A corded-Nordics or a basically Taurid, a Dinarid like form (his skull close to the Dinaric):

http://imageshack.us/a/img545/1236/7foa.jpg

Here is an identical Chechen boxer from the Caucasus:
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/6950/rloo.jpg

So yes, I acknowledge it, he does not stand far from the Corded Nordics too. There is only a big difference: he is swarty! Presumably an old transitional form.

[daedal1]

Maybe Cro-Magnon man and the original Haplogroup I carries were 'non-white' middle eastern types related to middle easterners like J, etc., and r1a/r1b carriers whitened europe, which would also explain the r1a nordics found in Central Asia.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Well finally, we got some Y-DNA during the ice age. Interesting that it turned out to be 'R'. It looks like his autosomal breakdown may give credence to the whole Proto-Eurasiatic theory or that part of the Paleo-Meso population of Eurasia was like Native Americans. Which makes sense of course but we should also wait a little more and get a more dispersed set of samples samples before declaring we now know everything about Paelo-Meso Europe based on a specimen found in Siberia.

[daedal1]

There was a debate once in here who was this guy. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?94924-Classify-Aryans-Yamna-Culture-Men) A corded-Nordics or a basically Taurid, a Dinarid like form (his skull close to the Dinaric):

http://imageshack.us/a/img545/1236/7foa.jpg

Here is an identical Chechen boxer from the Caucasus:
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/6950/rloo.jpg

So yes, I acknowledge it, he does not stand far from the Corded Nordics too. There is only a big difference: he is swarty!

Chechens/North Caucasians have northern euro inputs, Georgians are a better example of what original caucasus people and even what original middle easterners may have been like. Chechens originally came from ancient Iraq.

[blogen]

which would also explain the r1a nordics found in Central Asia.

Where?

[daedal1]

Where?

The Tocharians and Scythians had nordic features and they were r1a, no j2 or i, etc.

[Fire Haired]

Maybe Cro-Magnon man and the original Haplogroup I carries were 'non-white' middle eastern types related to middle easterners like J, etc., and r1a/r1b carriers whitened europe, which would also explain the r1a nordics found in Central Asia.

You are really simplifying things. The austomal group in globe13 called North Euro has been proven in pre R1a/R1b European hunter gathers to have been probably 100% in Europe before the Neolithic. It shows very close correlation to fair hair and eyes in Europe so Europe was probably paler before the Neolithic and before R1a and R1b became widespread and popular in Europe. Y DNA I did probably originated in Europe around 30,000ybp but its subclades did not spread till pretty recently maybe Neolithic or Mesolithic. Europeans are Caucasian like Near easterns and North Africans this is proven in physical features, mtdna, y dna I and J, and mainly Autosomal DNA. Y DNA R was originally Mongliod which is something it seems no one remembers even with 24,000 year old sample in Siberia.

[blogen]

Chechens/North Caucasians have northern euro inputs, Georgians are a better example of what original caucasus people and even what original middle easterners may have been like. Chechens originally came from ancient Iraq.

When? An ancestor of his lived there already before with five thousand years. There was no North to South migration, but there was South to North (neolithic) migration.

[daedal1]

You are really simplifying things. The austomal group in globe13 called North Euro has been proven in pre R1a/R1b European hunter gathers to have been probably 100% in Europe before the Neolithic. It shows very close correlation to fair hair and eyes in Europe so Europe was probably paler before the Neolithic and before R1a and R1b became widespread and popular in Europe. Y DNA I did probably originated in Europe around 30,000ybp but its subclades did not spread till pretty recently maybe Neolithic or Mesolithic. Europeans are Caucasian like Near easterns and North Africans this is proven in physical features, mtdna, y dna I and J, and mainly Autosomal DNA. Y DNA R was originally Mongliod which is something it seems no one remembers even with 24,000 year old sample in Siberia.

What about outside of Europe, such as with the central asian 'aryans'?

[Fire Haired]

The Tocharians and Scythians had nordic features and they were r1a, no j2 or i, etc.

You should says light haired and eyed not Nordic features because who are the Nordic Germanic speaking Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish. There are many just as fair haired and eyed people in Europe whoa re not Nordic like Lithuanians and all Baltic people, Slavic Russians, and non Balkan Slavs are almost as fair.

[blogen]

The Tocharians and Scythians had nordic features and they were r1a, no j2 or i, etc.

No. The Tocharians and the Scythians are Cromagnoids, Taurids, Mediterranids, but basically Europo-Mongoloids (the Scythians) based on this Caucasoid caracters. No Nordics in the Central Asian Steppe.

[daedal1]

When? An ancestor of his lived there already before with five thousand years. There was no North to South migration, but there was South to North (neolithic) migration.

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_people

Pattern of migration of Nakh peoples (Ingush, Chechens) from the birthplace in the Fertile Crescent to the slopes of the Caucasus (red arrow) 10,000 BC after they overused the land and created deserts. Bernice Wuethrich, Johanna Nichols (19 May 2000). "Peering Into the Past, With Words". Science 288 (5469): 1158


North Caucasian family[edit]
Some linguists such as Sergei Starosin think that the Northeast and Northwest Caucasian languages should be joined into a putative North Caucasian family,[23] citing shared vocabulary and typological features as evidence.[24] This proposed family does not usually include the neighboring Kartvelian languages.[24] This hypothesis is not well demonstrated.[25]
Connections to Hurrian and Urartian[edit]
Some linguists — notably I. M. Diakonoff and S. Starostin — also see similarities between the Northeast Caucasian family and the extinct languages Hurrian and Urartian. Hurrian was spoken in various parts of the Fertile Crescent in the 3rd and 2nd millennia BC. Urartian was the language of Urartu, a powerful state that existed between 1000 BC or earlier and 585 BC in the area centered on Lake Van in current Turkey.
The two extinct languages have been grouped into the Hurro-Urartian family. Diakonoff proposed the name Alarodian for the union of Hurro-Urartian and Northeast Caucasian.
Agricultural vocabulary[edit]
The Proto-Northeast Caucasian language had many terms for agriculture, and Johanna Nichols has suggested that its speakers may have been involved in the development of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent.[26] They had words for concepts such as yoke, as well as fruit trees such as apple and pear that suggest agriculture was already well developed when the proto-language broke up."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Caucasian_languages

Babylonians/Semites/Afro-Asiatics aren't the natives. The Sumerians (and who knows what else) were.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/52/Migration_on_Nakh_Peoples.png/557px-Migration_on_Nakh_Peoples.png

This also explains the J2 found in the Caucasus.

[Fire Haired]

What about outside of Europe, such as with the central asian 'aryans'?
Ancestral language to Indo Iranian and Tocherian came out of Yamna culture in Russia and Ukraine 5,000ybp. That is where the central asian "Aryans" full of R1a1a1b2 Z93 come from.(Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA) (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1431-INdo-Iranian-and-Tocherian-DNA).

[Fire Haired]

No. The Tocharians and the Scythians are Cromagnoids, Taurids, Mediterranids, but basically Europo-Mongoloids (the Scythians) based on this Caucasoid caracters. No Nordics in the Central Asian Steppe.

Once again where do you get these terms from do they really define anyone. And where do you have the evidence they fit with Sycthians and Tocherians(Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1431-INdo-Iranian-and-Tocherian-DNA))

[daedal1]

No. The Tocharians and the Scythians are Cromagnoids, Taurids, Mediterranids, but basically Europo-Mongoloids (the Scythians) based on this Caucasoid caracters. No Nordics in the Central Asian Steppe.

I said they had nordic-like features, possibly diluted by admixture to an extent, not that they were complete nordics.

Kazakhstan was 100% proto-europoid in the neolithic

http://www.scientificfund.kz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7:physical-anthropology-of-kazakh-people-and-their-genesis&catid=4:1&Itemid=4

http://www.scientificfund.kz/images/stories/fotki/bulleten_final_img_0.jpg

[blogen]

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Caucasian_languages

Babylonians/Semites/Afro-Asiatics aren't the natives. The Sumerians (and who knows what else) were.
This also explains the J2 found in the Caucasus.

Yes. A South to North migration close to the original R carriers' possible homeland. The presence of similar ancient caracters is not surprising and it is necessary to look for these ancient transitional from swarty to pale types in this region between Anatolia and Iran and Northern Mesopotamia and the Caucasus.

[blogen]

I said they had nordic-like features, possibly diluted by admixture to an extent, not that they were complete nordics.
Kazakhstan was 100% proto-europoid in the neolithic

The Proto-Europid is a Russian taxonomical terminology for the Cromagonoid. No Nordics, sorry!

[daedal1]

The Proto-Europid is a Russian taxonomical terminology for the Cromagonoid. No Nordics, sorry!

So, you're saying that the swarthy Cromagonoid looking r1a/r1 carriers moved into europe, depigmented into nordics, and then moved back into Central Asia later on? How do you know that the central asian r1a/r1s didn't also depigment?

[Smeagol]

No. The Tocharians and the Scythians are Cromagnoids, Taurids, Mediterranids, but basically Europo-Mongoloids (the Scythians) based on this Caucasoid caracters. No Nordics in the Central Asian Steppe.

Some Scythian racial types.

http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/centralasia/clothing/pictures/scythian.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Scythian.jpg

http://www.britam.org/picturesYair/Scythiancomb2.jpg

http://scythianmummies.weebly.com/uploads/1/9/8/0/19801147/3359294_orig.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6807&stc=1&d=129518037

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Ukok_princess_reconstruction.jpg

http://socialevolutionforum.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/scyths.jpg

[blogen]

Once again where do you get these terms from do they really define anyone. And where do you have the evidence they fit with Sycthians and Tocherians(Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1431-INdo-Iranian-and-Tocherian-DNA))

The Central Asian Proto-Europids and Europo-Mongoloids:

"38 men’s and 16 women’s skulls obtained from the burials of Maslyakha 1 and 2 (Krutikha district, Altaj kraj) burial grounds have been investigated. The latter have been referred to the Kamenka archaeological culture and dated to the 3rd–1st centuries В.С. Аnalysis of the craniological materials showed that in the said chronological period the territory of North Altaj was inhabited by the Eurasian population in which a Mongoloid admixture could be traced. The Eurasian stratum is related to the proto-European type to be present in the Andronovo population of the Bronze Age. The Моngoloid admixture is heterogenous: one of its parts is of the Central Asian origin while the other is of the forest West Siberian origin. Following ethnogenetic relations, one can trace relationship of the Kamenka culture population with the Sakas as well as with bearers of the Sargatka culture and Savromatae-Sarmatian groups."
Ryikun M. P.: Materials on Craniology of the North Altay population in the Early Iron Age (Kamenka culture) - Bulletin of Archeology, Anthropology and Ethnography, 1999 Vol 2 (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/pdf/31.pdf)

"In the late 3rd to early 2nd millennium B.C. the Afanasievo Culture emerged in northern Mongolia. The Afanasievo Culture had a cattle breeding economy mainly known from the kurgan cemeteries in the Minusinsk Basin and in the Gorny Altai region. Sites in both areas have been studied extensively. In Mongolia, Afanasievo cemeteries have been discovered on both the western and eastern slopes of the Hangai Mountains in the vicinity of Altan Sandal (Gold Chair) and Shatar Chuluu (Stone Chest).

The Afanasievo cultural ties were primarily with the west. Censer bowls found in Afanasievo burials are completely analogous with those from the southern Russian Catacomb burials. According to physical anthropologists the Afanasievo population was Paleo-European, descending from the Cro-Magnon people of Paleolithic Europe. It appears that the carriers of the Mongolian Afanasievo Culture were the easternmost Europoid tribes which populated Inner Asia at the dawn of the Bronze Age.

As mentioned previously, the Afanasievo-type populations found in the Altan Sandal and Shatar Chuluu burials at Khangai have Europoid skulls. The people belonged to one of the most eastern and most ancient groups of Europoid tribes to inhabit Inner Asia. They also contrast sharply with the Paleo-Asiatic groups found in the Late Neolithic or Eneolithic complexes of eastern Mongolia. 9 This leads to the conclusion that cultural and anthropological differences between two groups, one in eastern and the other in western Mongolia, appear to have developed at the onset of the Bronze Age."

"The physical appearance of the Saka in eastern Kazakhstan is essentially the same as that of the previous Bronze Age population (Ismagulov, 1965). However, some skulls of the Saka Period display Mongoloid admixture, particularly prominent among the female skulls. This has led the anthropologists to conclude that Europoid and Mongoloid admixture had occurred only recently (Ginzburg and Trofimova, 1972, pp. 119,125,129,132)."

"The distinct Mongoloid admixture found in the early Saka population in the lower Syr Darya River area seems to be strong evidence of eastern genetic ties. Moreover, archaeological evidence also confirms cultural contacts with the eastern
regions. The lower Syr Darya Saka populations shared common cultural and genetic components with the steppe populations of Central Asia, Kazakhstan, and the Southern Siberian steppes dating from the Bronze Age which accounts for the strong contacts during the Early Iron Age."

"People of similar physical appearance as those from the Tumek-Kichijik Cemetery formed the basis of the Bronze Age population who occupied the lower Volga River and southern Ural steppe areas. The second craniological variation is characteristic of the cemeteries of the Sakar-Chaga highland. These skulls are mesobrachiocephalic with moderately broad and relatively high faces. Some skulls are marked by flatness of their facial bones, exhibiting typical Mongoloid racial features. Skeletal material found in the contemporaneous Uigarak Cemetery is of a similar type. It is noteworthy that skeletal remains from the population groups dating to the Late Bronze Age and occupying areas of Southern Siberia and the Altai Mountains carried similar physical traits."

"In physical appearance the Saka population of the Tien Shan and the Altai Mountains were not homogeneous (data summary: Ginzburg and Trofimova, 1972). In general, the Saka of the Tien Shan Mountains belong to the brachycephalic Europoids with a slight Mongoloid admixture found primarily among the females. The Saka of the western Altai Mountain range, northeast of the Pamir Mountains and south of the Tien Shan Mountains, had narrower crania and relatively small facial bones. They were more representative of the Europoid race with only a small Mongoloid admixture. The anthropological base of the Tien Shan Saka populations appears to have descended from Bronze Age steppe tribes originally from Kazakhstan and Southern Siberia, while, in contrast, the cranial variation of the Altai population is similar to that which is characteristic of contemporary Semirechiye tribes. In the eastern Pamir Mountains, the homogeneous Saka population were dolichocephalic Europoids with narrow and very high faces. Little doubt remains about the origin of the Pamir Saka. According to V. Ginzburg, they were carriers of the Mediterranean complex of cranial traits. The distinct physical differences between these tribes, and their contemporary neighbors occupying the Semirechiye and regions to the north, testify to the biological, but not cultural, isolation of the Pamir Saka."
Jeannine Davis-Kimball (Editor), Vladimir A. Bashilov (Editor), Leonid T. Yablonsky: Nomads of the Eurasian Steppes in the Early Iron Age - Berkley, 1995

[daedal1]

Ancestral language to Indo Iranian and Tocherian came out of Yamna culture in Russia and Ukraine 5,000ybp. That is where the central asian "Aryans" full of R1a1a1b2 Z93 come from.(Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA) (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1431-INdo-Iranian-and-Tocherian-DNA).

Tarim Mummies were all tested as R1a1a.

[Fire Haired]

Tarim Mummies were all tested as R1a1a.

So they didn't test that far.

[Fire Haired]

The Central Asian Proto-Europids and Europo-Mongoloids:

"38 men’s and 16 women’s skulls obtained from the burials of Maslyakha 1 and 2 (Krutikha district, Altaj kraj) burial grounds have been investigated. The latter have been referred to the Kamenka archaeological culture and dated to the 3rd–1st centuries В.С. Аnalysis of the craniological materials showed that in the said chronological period the territory of North Altaj was inhabited by the Eurasian population in which a Mongoloid admixture could be traced. The Eurasian stratum is related to the proto-European type to be present in the Andronovo population of the Bronze Age. The Моngoloid admixture is heterogenous: one of its parts is of the Central Asian origin while the other is of the forest West Siberian origin. Following ethnogenetic relations, one can trace relationship of the Kamenka culture population with the Sakas as well as with bearers of the Sargatka culture and Savromatae-Sarmatian groups."
Ryikun M. P.: Materials on Craniology of the North Altay population in the Early Iron Age (Kamenka culture) - Bulletin of Archeology, Anthropology and Ethnography, 1999 Vol 2 (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/pdf/31.pdf)

"In the late 3rd to early 2nd millennium B.C. the Afanasievo Culture emerged in northern Mongolia. The Afanasievo Culture had a cattle breeding economy mainly known from the kurgan cemeteries in the Minusinsk Basin and in the Gorny Altai region. Sites in both areas have been studied extensively. In Mongolia, Afanasievo cemeteries have been discovered on both the western and eastern slopes of the Hangai Mountains in the vicinity of Altan Sandal (Gold Chair) and Shatar Chuluu (Stone Chest).

The Afanasievo cultural ties were primarily with the west. Censer bowls found in Afanasievo burials are completely analogous with those from the southern Russian Catacomb burials. According to physical anthropologists the Afanasievo population was Paleo-European, descending from the Cro-Magnon people of Paleolithic Europe. It appears that the carriers of the Mongolian Afanasievo Culture were the easternmost Europoid tribes which populated Inner Asia at the dawn of the Bronze Age.

As mentioned previously, the Afanasievo-type populations found in the Altan Sandal and Shatar Chuluu burials at Khangai have Europoid skulls. The people belonged to one of the most eastern and most ancient groups of Europoid tribes to inhabit Inner Asia. They also contrast sharply with the Paleo-Asiatic groups found in the Late Neolithic or Eneolithic complexes of eastern Mongolia. 9 This leads to the conclusion that cultural and anthropological differences between two groups, one in eastern and the other in western Mongolia, appear to have developed at the onset of the Bronze Age."

"The physical appearance of the Saka in eastern Kazakhstan is essentially the same as that of the previous Bronze Age population (Ismagulov, 1965). However, some skulls of the Saka Period display Mongoloid admixture, particularly prominent among the female skulls. This has led the anthropologists to conclude that Europoid and Mongoloid admixture had occurred only recently (Ginzburg and Trofimova, 1972, pp. 119,125,129,132)."

"The distinct Mongoloid admixture found in the early Saka population in the lower Syr Darya River area seems to be strong evidence of eastern genetic ties. Moreover, archaeological evidence also confirms cultural contacts with the eastern
regions. The lower Syr Darya Saka populations shared common cultural and genetic components with the steppe populations of Central Asia, Kazakhstan, and the Southern Siberian steppes dating from the Bronze Age which accounts for the strong contacts during the Early Iron Age."

"People of similar physical appearance as those from the Tumek-Kichijik Cemetery formed the basis of the Bronze Age population who occupied the lower Volga River and southern Ural steppe areas. The second craniological variation is characteristic of the cemeteries of the Sakar-Chaga highland. These skulls are mesobrachiocephalic with moderately broad and relatively high faces. Some skulls are marked by flatness of their facial bones, exhibiting typical Mongoloid racial features. Skeletal material found in the contemporaneous Uigarak Cemetery is of a similar type. It is noteworthy that skeletal remains from the population groups dating to the Late Bronze Age and occupying areas of Southern Siberia and the Altai Mountains carried similar physical traits."

"In physical appearance the Saka population of the Tien Shan and the Altai Mountains were not homogeneous (data summary: Ginzburg and Trofimova, 1972). In general, the Saka of the Tien Shan Mountains belong to the brachycephalic Europoids with a slight Mongoloid admixture found primarily among the females. The Saka of the western Altai Mountain range, northeast of the Pamir Mountains and south of the Tien Shan Mountains, had narrower crania and relatively small facial bones. They were more representative of the Europoid race with only a small Mongoloid admixture. The anthropological base of the Tien Shan Saka populations appears to have descended from Bronze Age steppe tribes originally from Kazakhstan and Southern Siberia, while, in contrast, the cranial variation of the Altai population is similar to that which is characteristic of contemporary Semirechiye tribes. In the eastern Pamir Mountains, the homogeneous Saka population were dolichocephalic Europoids with narrow and very high faces. Little doubt remains about the origin of the Pamir Saka. According to V. Ginzburg, they were carriers of the Mediterranean complex of cranial traits. The distinct physical differences between these tribes, and their contemporary neighbors occupying the Semirechiye and regions to the north, testify to the biological, but not cultural, isolation of the Pamir Saka."
Jeannine Davis-Kimball (Editor), Vladimir A. Bashilov (Editor), Leonid T. Yablonsky: Nomads of the Eurasian Steppes in the Early Iron Age - Berkley, 1995

There is no proto Eupiod Because Europeans are Caucasin like near easterns and north Africans. There is no proto Eupiod-Mongliod either since Austosomal DNa has shown Mongliods are very related to Oceania(globe13 (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/)).

[Fire Haired]

Some Scythian racial types.

http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/centralasia/clothing/pictures/scythian.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Scythian.jpg

http://www.britam.org/picturesYair/Scythiancomb2.jpg

http://scythianmummies.weebly.com/uploads/1/9/8/0/19801147/3359294_orig.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6807&stc=1&d=129518037

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Ukok_princess_reconstruction.jpg

http://socialevolutionforum.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/scyths.jpg

We know the original racial features of Indo Iranian and Tocherian speakers through their DNA.

[Ibericus]

Tarim Mummies were all tested as R1a1a.
But their mtDNA was mongoloid (haplogorup C)

[inactive_member]

You should says light haired and eyed not Nordic features because who are the Nordic Germanic speaking Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish. There are many just as fair haired and eyed people in Europe whoa re not Nordic like Lithuanians and all Baltic people, Slavic Russians, and non Balkan Slavs are almost as fair.

The shape of cranium changed in some of the aforementioned light pigmented populations from dolichocephalic to brachycephalic in the course of few centuries in the regions that expirienced little migrations. This has been shown emperically by anthropologists. Similar changes have been observed in different populations around the world. Ancestors of modern day Baltids could had been nordids or CM in 15th century.

[Smaug]

Very interesting indeed!

[blogen]

So, you're saying that the swarthy Cromagonoid looking r1a/r1 carriers moved into europe, depigmented into nordics, and then moved back into Central Asia later on? How do you know that the central asian r1a/r1s didn't also depigment?

Yes, once time the CM was a swarthy type too (R time), but the Cromagnoids (and the Lapponoids) are indigenous and pale skinned at this time in the Mesolithic Europe and the Cromagnoids were in Eastern Europe and maybe Western Siberia originally and they moved to East (Altay, Mongolia) slowly. They are attached to the R1a type presumably. The swarthy neolithic newcomers (R1b) are the Mediterranids, the proto-Nordics, the Dinarids and Taurid forms, etc. Later a part of theirs are depigmented too, like the Cromagnoids and Lapponoids earlier.

[blogen]

There is no proto Eupiod Because Europeans are Caucasin like near easterns and north Africans. There is no proto Eupiod-Mongliod either since Austosomal DNa has shown Mongliods are very related to Oceania(globe13 (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/)).

What a surprise, the Oceanians come from Southeast China! WOW! :clap2:

[d3cimat3d]

The shape of cranium changed in some of the aforementioned light pigmented populations from dolichocephalic to brachycephalic in the course of few centuries in the regions that expirienced little migrations. This has been shown emperically by anthropologists. Similar changes have been observed in different populations around the world. Ancestors of modern day Baltids could had been nordids or CM in 15th century.

That is true. Comparing the Dolicephalic cranium of the Dnepr-Donets+Yamna cultures to the hyper-Brachycephalic Sarmatian crania it's hard to believe these are the continuation of the same people.

Sarmatian Kurgan excavated a few months ago:

http://i41.tinypic.com/rk0twp.jpg

I wonder what environmental factors led to the head shape changing. By the way Andronovo skulls look textbook east-Baltid, I'm surprised no one ever mentions it.

[daedal1]

There is no proto Eupiod Because Europeans are Caucasin like near easterns and north Africans. There is no proto Eupiod-Mongliod either since Austosomal DNa has shown Mongliods are very related to Oceania(globe13 (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/)).

European Skin Turned Pale Only
Recently, Gene Suggests

Researchers have disagreed for decades about
an issue that is only skin-deep: How quickly
did the first modern humans who swept into
Europe acquire pale skin? Now a new report
on the evolution of a gene for skin color suggests
that Europeans lightened up quite
recently, perhaps only 6000 to 12,000 years
ago. This contradicts a long-standing hypothesis
that modern humans in Europe grew
paler about 40,000 years ago, as soon as they
migrated into northern latitudes. Under
darker skies, pale skin absorbs more sunlight
than dark skin, allowing ultraviolet rays to
produce more vitamin D for bone growth and
calcium absorption. “The [evolution of] light
skin occurred long after the arrival of modern
humans in Europe,” molecular anthropologist
Heather Norton of the University of Arizona,
Tucson, said in her talk.
The genetic origin of the spectrum of
human skin colors has been one of the big
puzzles of biology. Researchers made a
major breakthrough in 2005 by discovering a
gene, SLC24A5, that apparently causes pale
skin in many Europeans, but not in Asians.
A team led by geneticist Keith Cheng of
Pennsylvania State University (PSU) College
of Medicine in Hershey found two variants
of the gene that differed by just one
amino acid. Nearly all Africans and East
Asians had one allele, whereas 98% of the
120 Europeans they studied had the other
(Science, 28 October 2005, p. 601).
Norton, who worked on the Cheng study
as a graduate student, decided to find out
when that mutation swept through Europeans.
Working as a postdoc with geneticist Michael
Hammer at the University of Arizona, she
sequenced 9300 base pairs of DNA in the
SLC24A5 gene in 41 Europeans, Africans,
Asians, and American Indians.
Using variations in the gene that did not
cause paling, she calculated the background
mutation rate of SLC24A5 and thereby determined
that 18,000 years had passed since the
light-skin allele was fixed in Europeans. But
the error margins were large, so she also analyzed
variation in the DNA flanking the
gene. She found that Europeans with the
allele had a “striking lack of diversity” in
this flanking DNA—a sign of very recent
genetic change, because not enough time has
passed for new mutations to arise. The data
suggest that the selective sweep occurred
5300 to 6000 years ago, but given the imprecision
of method, the real date could be as far
back as 12,000 years ago, Norton said. She
added that other, unknown, genes probably
also cause paling in Europeans.
Either way, the implication is that our
European ancestors were brown-skinned
for tens of thousands of years—a suggestion
made 30 years ago by Stanford University
geneticist L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza. He
argued that the early immigrants to Europe,
who were hunter-gatherers, herders, and
fishers, survived on ready-made sources of
vitamin D in their diet. But when farming
spread in the past 6000 years, he argued,
Europeans had fewer sources of vitamin D
in their food and needed to absorb more
sunlight to produce the vitamin in their
skin. Cultural factors such as heavier clothing
might also have favored increased
absorption of sunlight on the few exposed
areas of skin, such as hands and faces, says
paleoanthropologist Nina Jablonski of PSU
in State College.
Such recent changes in skin color show
that humans are still evolving, says molecular
anthropologist Henry Harpending of the University
of Utah, Salt Lake City: “We have all
tacitly assumed for years that modern humans
showed up 45,000 years ago and have not
changed much since, while this and other
work shows that we continue to change, often
at a very fast rate.”

http://galsatia.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/blanche_paleur.pdf

What do you think about SLC24A5?


http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/08/25/molbev.mss207


http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7413459_SLC24A5_a_putative_cation_exchanger_affect s_pigmentation_in_zebrafish_and_humans/file/9c96051acc764a485c.pdf?ev=pub_ext_doc_dl&origin=publication_detail&inViewer=true

[daedal1]

But their mtDNA was mongoloid (haplogorup C)

That's from obvious admixture, but they also had H and K.

[inactive_member]

That is true. Comparing the Dolicephalic cranium of the Dnepr-Donets+Yamna cultures to the hyper-Btachycephalic Sarmatian crania it's hard to believe these are the continuation of the same people.

Sarmatian Kurgan excavated a few months ago:

http://i41.tinypic.com/rk0twp.jpg

I wonder what environmental factors led to the head shape changing. By the way Andronovo skulls look textbook east-Baltid, I'm surprised no one ever mentions it.

I can't remember the conclusion of the anthropologists publishing the article I read. The study was done on craniums found near Polotsk, northern Belarus - the region that attracted a lot of interest among archeologists. The age of craniums used in the study were 300 years apart. You can search for the article if you are interested. I remember Marija Gimbutas referenced archeological findings in her book presenting maps in eastern Baltic (Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus, western Russia, Estonia) on which long norrow craniums were found.

Maybe environmental led to those changes.

[blogen]

Sarmatians and their Mongoloid influence, the origin of the hyper-Brachycephalic headforms between the steppic folks in Eurasia:

"Under the analysis of anthropological correlations, high emphasis being placed on the ancient groups which to this or that extent tend to experience a morphological similarity with the late Sarmatian material. It is noted that the population of the late Sarmatian culture experiences the greatest similarity to the population of the Tesinsky stage of the Tagarsky culture, as well as to certain groups of the Pazyryk culture. Such a result of an intergroup correlation could be helpful in searching sources of migrations which played an important role under the development of cultural and morphological features with the population of the late Sarmatian time."
М.А. Балабанова: О ЦЕНТРАЛЬНО-АЗИАТСКИХ СВЯЗЯХ В АНТРОПОЛОГИИ НАСЕЛЕНИЯ ПОЗДНЕСАРМАТСКОГО ВРЕМЕНИ ВОСТОЧНОЙ ЕВРОПЫ (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/va/_private/a18/82-91.pdf)

or:

"Craniological materials (10 skulls) from burial grounds Chernaya 2 and Kardailovo (Ileksky district of Orenburg oblast) dated IV–III centuries B. C., sarmatskaya archaeological culture are analyzed. The structure of skulls testifies to belonging the population of Orenburg oblast to europoid rece but mongoloid impurity is fixed. There are revealed two racial components: europoid which is genetically connected with sarmat tribes and europoid with mongoloid impurity. The last is analogous to a racial component among the population of gorokhovo and sargat cultures of West Siberia"
А. Н. Багашев: МАТЕРИАЛЫ К КРАНИОЛОГИИ САРМАТОВ (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/va/_private/a1/2-bag.pdf)

[d3cimat3d]

Sarmatians and their Mongoloid influence, the origin of the hyper-Brachycephalic headforms between the steppic folks in Eurasia:

"Under the analysis of anthropological correlations, high emphasis being placed on the ancient groups which to this or that extent tend to experience a morphological similarity with the late Sarmatian material. It is noted that the population of the late Sarmatian culture experiences the greatest similarity to the population of the Tesinsky stage of the Tagarsky culture, as well as to certain groups of the Pazyryk culture. Such a result of an intergroup correlation could be helpful in searching sources of migrations which played an important role under the development of cultural and morphological features with the population of the late Sarmatian time."
М.А. Балабанова: О ЦЕНТРАЛЬНО-АЗИАТСКИХ СВЯЗЯХ В АНТРОПОЛОГИИ НАСЕЛЕНИЯ ПОЗДНЕСАРМАТСКОГО ВРЕМЕНИ ВОСТОЧНОЙ ЕВРОПЫ (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/va/_private/a18/82-91.pdf)

or:

"Craniological materials (10 skulls) from burial grounds Chernaya 2 and Kardailovo (Ileksky district of Orenburg oblast) dated IV–III centuries B. C., sarmatskaya archaeological culture are analyzed. The structure of skulls testifies to belonging the population of Orenburg oblast to europoid rece but mongoloid impurity is fixed. There are revealed two racial components: europoid which is genetically connected with sarmat tribes and europoid with mongoloid impurity. The last is analogous to a racial component among the population of gorokhovo and sargat cultures of West Siberia"
А. Н. Багашев: МАТЕРИАЛЫ К КРАНИОЛОГИИ САРМАТОВ (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/va/_private/a1/2-bag.pdf)

Yes it is known the Scytho-Sarmatians were Mongoloid admixed. Based off mtDNA:

http://i43.tinypic.com/i5yfis.png

However there is no proof Andronovo had any significant Mongoloid admixture, especially those in the far west.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It's basically saying what I have said before. We know where the mongoloid head shape comes from, it was not what protomongoloids looked like.


Yes, once time the CM was a swarthy type too (R time), but the Cromagnoids (and the Lapponoids) are indigenous and pale skinned at this time in the Mesolithic Europe and the Cromagnoids were in Eastern Europe and maybe Western Siberia originally and they moved to East (Altay, Mongolia) slowly. They are attached to the R1a type presumably. The swarthy neolithic newcomers (R1b) are the Mediterranids, the proto-Nordics, the Dinarids and Taurid forms, etc. Later a part of theirs are depigmented too, like the Cromagnoids and Lapponoids earlier.

Too complicated to have any plausibility but then so are all the supposed back migrations needed for out of africa.

[blogen]

Yes it is known the Scytho-Sarmatians were Mongoloid admixed. Based off mtDNA:
http://i43.tinypic.com/i5yfis.png
However there is no proof Andronovo had any significant Mongoloid admixture, especially those in the far west.

The Andronovo horizont is the basic area of the Caucasoid and Mongoloid mixing in the Bronze age. The original Turanid type is the Andronovo type for example.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Scythian.jpg

Doesn't get more europoid than this.



http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6807&stc=1&d=129518037


This is actually a pretty poor reconstruction. This guy has very heavy neanderthal admixture. Look at that nasal angle and the forehead slope. Again this is as european-looking as it gets, and it's pretty obvious it didn't come to europe as many think. Whole area from iberia to eurasian steps and caucas was all related since at least last ice age.

Which is more or less proved by this newspiece anyway, and only came into doubt with some sampling of neolithic farmers that seemed to show otherwise.

[d3cimat3d]

The Andronovo horizont is the basic area of the Caucasoid and Mongoloid mixing in the Bronze age. The original Turanid type is the Andronovo type for example.

Kazakhstan bronze age (KAZ-BA) is not showing any Mongoliod mtDNA.

[blogen]

Too complicated to have any plausibility but then so are all the supposed back migrations needed for out of africa.

But this was the peopling of Europe:

~40,000BC - arriving the Cromagnoids
~20,000BC - possible arriving the proto-Lapponoids
~7-2000BC - arriving the Mediterranids, proto-Nordics, Taurid/Dinarid forms and Alpinoids (if the Alpinoid is not a Lapponoid subtype) in many waves.

[blogen]

Kazakhstan bronze age (KAZ-BA) is not showing any Mongoliod mtDNA.

And the reality about the mixing: (http://dienekes.blogspot.hu/2012/07/population-strata-in-west-siberian.html)
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5388/adt8.jpg
other source (http://books.google.hu/books?id=_hcnk6Ckpe0C&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=%22Human+migrations+in+the+southern+region+of+t he+West+Siberian+Plain+during+the+Bronze+Age%22&source=bl&ots=gMLeW4ntOM&sig=jLlKlCV2Y31zskxkxjRIvxKacf4&hl=hu&sa=X&ei=kUNjUrLvK4Sf0QWIzICoDg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Human%20migrations%20in%20the%20southern%20re gion%20of%20the%20West%20Siberian%20Plain%20during %20the%20Bronze%20Age%22&f=false)

[daedal1]

And the reality about the mixing: (http://dienekes.blogspot.hu/2012/07/population-strata-in-west-siberian.html)
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5388/adt8.jpg
other source (http://books.google.hu/books?id=_hcnk6Ckpe0C&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=%22Human+migrations+in+the+southern+region+of+t he+West+Siberian+Plain+during+the+Bronze+Age%22&source=bl&ots=gMLeW4ntOM&sig=jLlKlCV2Y31zskxkxjRIvxKacf4&hl=hu&sa=X&ei=kUNjUrLvK4Sf0QWIzICoDg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Human%20migrations%20in%20the%20southern%20re gion%20of%20the%20West%20Siberian%20Plain%20during %20the%20Bronze%20Age%22&f=false)

A few questions for your theory:

When did cro-magnoon (i) carriers become depigmented (coming through anatolia)? And when did lapplanders (n) follow? Who would have depigmented first, the r1b carriers or the r1a carriers? Also, why would chechens cluster closer to western euros than to modern r1a eastern euros? Were original r1a carriers more similar to NW Euros, before modern eastern euros mixed with uralics? Were Uralics originally mongoloids, or were they always 'uraloid' mongoloid-caucasoid intermediates? When did they transform into uraloid types when before they were presumably mongoloid?

Also, so P carriers would be swarthy west asian like people, and then Q men mixed with east eurasian women?

[d3cimat3d]

And the reality about the mixing: (http://dienekes.blogspot.hu/2012/07/population-strata-in-west-siberian.html)


Yes they were more Mongoliod mixed the further north and closer to the forest-steppe boreal zone. However based on Y-dna, 9/10 of the remains from Krasnoyarsk, far east Andronovo were R1a, so 90% Caucasoid.


Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one haplogroup C-M130 (xC3)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#Ancient_DNA

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/11/mitochondrial-dna-in-ancient-human.html

[blogen]

A few questions for your theory:

When did cro-magnoon (i) carriers become depigmented (coming through anatolia)? And when did lapplanders (n) follow?

Cromagnoids and Lapponoids: ~12-10,000BC
proto-Nordids and other neolithic peoples in Northwestern Europe: ~6-4,000BC

The Cromagnoids and Lapponoids are clearly more older pale forms, their paleness are soft and not brutal albinoid (depigmented) like, than many redhead and Nordic blonds' caracter.


Who would have depigmented first, the r1b carriers or the r1a carriers?

Presumably R1a in Eastern Europe. The R1a arrived into Europe before the agriculture. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987245/)


Also, why would chechens cluster closer to western euros than to modern r1a eastern euros?

The Chechens are West Asian like population, only a random example was a boxer here.


Were original r1a carriers more similar to NW Euros, before modern eastern euros mixed with uralics?

R1a: Cromagnoids (Baltic, etc.), Steppic peoples and descendants
R1b: Mediterranids, Taurids, Alpinoids, etc.


Were Uralics originally mongoloids, or were they always 'uraloid' mongoloid-caucasoid intermediates?

No. The Uralics were Caucasoids and Europo-Mongoloids everytime.


When did they transform into uraloid types when before they were presumably mongoloid?

Uralic age. Uralid=Baltid+Mongoloid mix in Eastern Europe and the Ob valley.


Also, so P carriers would be swarthy west asian like people, and then Q men mixed with east eurasian women?

No. The Mongoloids (Sinodont) origin from the South-East asian proto-Mongoloids. But the Mongoloids are borealized in the time of the LGM.

[blogen]

Yes they were more Mongoliod mixed the further north and closer to the forest-steppe boreal zone. However based on Y-dna, 9/10 of the remains from Krasnoyarsk, far east Andronovo were R1a, so 90% Caucasoid.

:picard1:

Paternal and maternal genes and the races are two different things.

[d3cimat3d]

:picard1:

Paternal and maternal genes and the races are two different things.

http://i41.tinypic.com/fekxo8.jpg

What you fail to realize is there are no autosomal studies of the Andronovo horizon available yet, so we must rely on mtDNA and Y-dna to get the picture..... Unless you think your Nazi skull measurements will suffice.

[daedal1]

Cromagnoids and Lapponoids: ~12-10,000BC
proto-Nordids and other neolithic peoples in Northwestern Europe: ~6-4,000BC



Presumably R1a in Eastern Europe. The R1a arrived into Europe before the agriculture. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987245/)



The Chechens are West Asian like population, only a random example was a boxer here.



R1a: Cromagnoids (Baltic, etc.), Steppic peoples and descendants
R1b: Mediterranids, Taurids, Alpinoids, etc.



No. The Uralics were Caucasoids and Europo-Mongoloids everytime.



Uralic age. Uralid=Baltid+Mongoloid mix in Eastern Europe and the Ob valley.



No. The Mongoloids (Sinodont) origin from the South-East asian proto-Mongoloids. But the Mongoloids are borealized in the time of the LGM.

In terms of MNOPS

Was NO Mongoloid?

What about P?

Or had the split between mongoloids and caucasoids not occurred yet?

N is Mongoloid or Caucasoid?

So N was originally Mongoloid and eventually mixed with west eurasian women in the urals? With P>Q|R, it was the reverse, west eurasian men mixing with mongoloid or proto-mongoloid women?

[Black Wolf]

Truly fascinating stuff indeed. I think there is a good chancethen that the Upper Paleolithic peoples of Europe may have also carried Y-DNA haplogroup R. We already know that they were dominated by mtDNA haplogroup U. It is very interesting that mtDNA haplogroup U had such a wide spread during the Upper Paleolithic. From Europe in the West deep into Siberia in the East.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Interesting.

[blogen]

In terms of MNOPS
Was NO Mongoloid?

No. He was the common ancestor of the Caucasoids, Veddoids, Negritoes and Mongoloids somewhere in South Asia.

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/976/2sf4.jpg


What about P?

Good question. After this relevation from the old Siberian R... maybe this is the new situation:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9597/2lbn.jpg


N is Mongoloid or Caucasoid?

East Eurasian. The average N carriers were Mongoloids.


So N was originally Mongoloid and eventually mixed with west eurasian women in the urals? With P>Q|R, it was the reverse, west eurasian men mixing with mongoloid or proto-mongoloid women?

Yes.


Or had the split between mongoloids and caucasoids not occurred yet?

No connection. In this new situation, maybe the Amerindians are an Europo-Mongoloid origin population, if the Q was originally a Central Asian haplogroup.

[daedal1]

No. He was the common ancestor of the Caucasoids, Veddoids, Negritoes and Mongoloids somewhere in South Asia.

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/976/2sf4.jpg



Where does that leave IJ people, how did they also become caucasoids if MNOPS is the central ancestor?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Magic, apparently.

:picard1:

Paternal and maternal genes and the races are two different things.

But at some point for a clade to form they had to be a homogenous race. So all IJK was one race at some point, so what did it look like? I seriously doubt it was black or asian, it must have been differentiated by then or it would never happen.

[blogen]

Where does that leave IJ people, how did they also become caucasoids if MNOPS is the central ancestor?

Here. In this same point between the CT and the MNOPS where the Caucasoids separate from the others.

[blogen]

Magic, apparently.
But at some point for a clade to form they had to be a homogenous race. So all IJK was one race at some point, so what did it look like? I seriously doubt it was black or asian, it must have been differentiated by then or it would never happen.

No. Never was a homogenous race. He was a men with lot of very different descendants.

[Black Wolf]

It will be interesting to see what the autosomal DNA of this individual is truly like. Apparentlyy Vadim Verenich has ran it through a calculator already.

[blogen]

What you fail to realize is there are no autosomal studies of the Andronovo horizon available yet, so we must rely on mtDNA and Y-dna to get the picture..... Unless you think your Nazi skull measurements will suffice.

Those measured numbers are severe than the autosomal genes.

[daedal1]

Here. In this same point between the CT and the MNOPS where the Caucasoids separate from the others.

So caucasoids formally separated from proto-mongoloids @ MNOPS, while K (of IJK) and L still remained caucasoid?

This would make Mongoloid a mutation of Caucasoid, no?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

No. Never was a homogenous race. He was a men with lot of very different descendants.

Had to have been at one point, or clads would never form, everyone would just have random clade. They would only get like this during drift, in small groups. Like during ice age refugeums.

Just a minute ago you were saying skin formed 12000 years ago, Well, R1a had an estimate of 18k years, here it is at 24k years, 6k years before it supposedly formed. Whoops.

Things just dont work the way you think they do, what you are saying is not possible.

[d3cimat3d]

Those measured numbers are severe than the autosomal genes.

How? Rugevit pointed out skull shape is subject to change in a matter of a few centuries, the reasons for this is unknown, diet or environmental stress.

Anyway I found Verenich's analysis of this Siberian, here are the results:


[2,] “33.7% Brahui + 66.3% Udmurd” “21.9804″
[3,] “34.5% Makrani + 65.5% Udmurd” “22.357″
[4,] “34.3% Balochi + 65.7% Udmurd” “22.413″
[5,] “33.3% Sindhi + 66.7% Udmurd” “24.1198″
[6,] “36.5% Burusho + 63.5% Udmurd” “24.211″
[7,] “39.7% Pashtun + 60.3% Udmurd” “24.3389″
[8,] “34.3% Pathan + 65.7% Udmurd” “24.716″
[9,] “32.2% Pakistani + 67.8% Udmurd” “24.753″
[10,] “41.4% Tadjik + 58.6% Udmurd” “24.852

http://verenich.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%8D%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8F%D1%86%D0%B8%D 0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE/

Hmmm.... how Mongoloid are Udmurts anyway?
Not much judging by their pictures.
Looks like this individual was predominately Caucasoid. Very odd.

[daedal1]

No. Never was a homogenous race. He was a men with lot of very different descendants.

Or rather could it be that all of mnops was caucasoid and that these caucasoids mixed with mongoloids who had evolved from more isolated australoids?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_D_(mtDNA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_M_(mtDNA)

Even native americans have some Haplogroup C (y-dna), all mongoloids seem to have some C or D, which is from Australoid C.

If Mongoloid evolved directly from Australoid, it would explain how East Asians are so close to Australoids.

[Black Wolf]

The ancient Siberian individual was basically Caucasoid.

[blogen]

So caucasoids formally separated from proto-mongoloids @ MNOPS, while K (of IJK) and L still remained caucasoid?

The Caucasians originate from six fathers:

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3102/qyrg.jpg


This would make Mongoloid a mutation of Caucasoid, no?

No. The Mongoloids are brothers of the Caucasians.

[blogen]

Had to have been at one point, or clads would never form, everyone would just have random clade. They would only get like this during drift, in small groups. Like during ice age refugeums.
Just a minute ago you were saying skin formed 12000 years ago, Well, R1a had an estimate of 18k years, here it is at 24k years, 6k years before it supposedly formed. Whoops.

And? Not the paternal or maternal DNA is the basics of the skin color.


Things just dont work the way you think they do, what you are saying is not possible.

[blogen]

How? Rugevit pointed out skull shape is subject to change in a matter of a few centuries, the reasons for this is unknown, diet or environmental stress.

Yes, the autosomal genes are mutating.


Anyway I found Verenich's analysis of this Siberian, here are the results:
Hmmm.... how Mongoloid are Udmurts anyway?
Not much judging by their pictures.
Looks like this individual was predominately Caucasoid. Very odd.

Not Mongoloids, the Mongoloids are the clear blooded peoples. But there are lot of Udmurt are Europo-Mongoloid.

[daedal1]

No. The Mongoloids are brothers of the Caucasians.

Then why are they so distant from Caucasoids, and why are they relatively close to Australoids?

Are Mongoloids closer to Australoids or to Caucasoids? Do you have any data to confirm?

[blogen]

Then why are they so distant from Caucasoids, and why are they relatively close to Australoids?
Are Mongoloids closer to Australoids or to Caucasoids? Do you have any data to confirm?

This is a very old brotherhood with the Australoids, Negritoes, Veddoids, Paleomongoloids and Mongoloids. This is the situation (based on the YDNA tree): the Ca1 (Caucasoid ancestor 1) is the nephew to the Ma1 (Mongoloid ancestor 1) and the Ma2 is brother of the Ca5 and the Ca6 is nephew of the Ma2.

And if you see the youngest, the haplogroup S are the Papuan-Melanesians:

http://thefabweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/9H36e.jpg

All six forefather of the Caucasians were dark then he.

[daedal1]

This is a very old brotherhood with the Australoids, Negritoes, Veddoids, Paleomongoloids and Mongoloids. This is the situation (based on the YDNA tree): the Ca1 (Caucasoid ancestor 1) is the nephew to the Ma1 (Mongoloid ancestor 1) and the Ma2 is brother of the Ca5 and the Ca6 is nephew of the Ma2.

And if you see the youngest, the haplogroup S are the Papuan-Melanesians:

http://thefabweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/9H36e.jpg

All six forefather of the Caucasians were dark then he.

According to this, Mongoloids are genetically closer to Australoids, than they are to Caucasoids:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TPZ9Kigo5ZI/AAAAAAAAC90/y_TOcj02A4w/s1600/1_2.png

Is this is the case, then Mongoloids (who have some C/D, including native americans) could simply be evolved forms of Australoids (also C/D), and MNOPS as well as IJK could have originally been Caucasoid.

[blogen]

According to this, Mongoloids are genetically closer to Australoids, than they are to Caucasoids:
Is this is the case, then Mongoloids (who have some C/D, including native americans) could simply be evolved forms of Australoids (also C/D), and MNOPS as well as IJK could have originally been Caucasoid.

This is the distance and not the affinity. The number of the mutations defines the distance between the relatives.

[daedal1]

This is the distance and not the affinity. The number of the mutations defines the distance between the relatives.

How are Japanese/Tibetans/Mongols pred. C/D carriers at the same time that Australian Aboriginals, and Andamanese islanders also are?

There is definite admixture between australoids and mongoloids one way or another.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

lol blogen has no facts of any kind just makes up something then stick to it like it can be true just because he wants it to be.

[Harkonnen]

The amount of batshit crazy folk in this forum is truly staggering.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

According to this, Mongoloids are genetically closer to Australoids, than they are to Caucasoids:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TPZ9Kigo5ZI/AAAAAAAAC90/y_TOcj02A4w/s1600/1_2.png

Is this is the case, then Mongoloids (who have some C/D, including native americans) could simply be evolved forms of Australoids (also C/D), and MNOPS as well as IJK could have originally been Caucasoid.

It's almost like this picture shows there's three basic races or something and most the variation between nations is from mixing of the three. What kind of madness is this.

BlogenButlerKingKidMulat please take note.

[daedal1]

Same results from Li. et al's (Worldwide Human Relationships Inferred from Genome-Wide Patterns of Variation
) study here:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/race.jpg

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2008/02/21/319.5866.1100.DC1/Li_SOM.pdf

Mongoloids are closer to Australoids than they are to Caucasoids.

[Harkonnen]

^Can you please tell me where are australoids on that map of yours?

[daedal1]

^Can you please tell me where are australoids on that map of yours?

'Oceania'

[Harkonnen]

Oceanians are not Australoids. I have no idea where you got that idea from. Oceanians are basically a mix between South East Asians & Melanesians (Papuans).

[daedal1]

Oceanians are not Australoids. I have no idea where you got that idea from. Oceanians are basically a mix between South East Asians & Melanesians (Papuans).

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Australoids


Aus·tra·loid (ôstr-loid)
adj. Anthropology
Of or being a human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as dark skin and dark curly hair, and including the Aboriginal peoples of Australia along with various peoples of southeast Asia, especially Melanesia and the Malay Archipelago. See Usage Note at race1.

[Harkonnen]

Whatever. Oceanians that are referred to here are ofc (and of which I'm referring to) are people like the Samoans, Fijians or Maori. These people are genetically around 70 SEA 30% Papuan. Also Melanesians and Australian Aborigines are genetically quite distant folks.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2012/12/racial-composition-and-history-of-india.html

[daedal1]

Whatever. Oceanians that are referred to here are ofc (and of which I'm referring to) are people like the Samoans, Fijians or Maori. These people are genetically around 70 SEA 30% Papuan. Also Melanesians and Australian Aborigines are genetically quite distant folks.

By Oceanians, it's referring to Melanesians and Papuans:

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~lliao/archive/worldwide_human_relationships_inferred_from_genome _wide_patterns_of_variation.pdf

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Yeah there's no point worrying about something that's recent mix race.

[blogen]

lol blogen has no facts of any kind just makes up something then stick to it like it can be true just because he wants it to be.

?

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Oceania DNA found in Siberia is interesting.

Denisova DNA was found in a similar region & also found in Oceania today!

Perhaps this is support of Oceania peoples coming from Central Asia!

There is high Y DNA C haplogroup in Mongolia & also Oceania!

Maybe Mongolians with C haplogroup were like Oceanians before they became mostly Asiatic!?

[mr. logan]

Dark skin in the cold works wrong. Oceanians and Siberia doesn´t fit, and the migration of dark skinned through glaciers that they couldn´t know how they would end neither. As this data can only be generated and checked by small circles, all of it must be taken with care.

[Harkonnen]

Oceania DNA found in Siberia is interesting.

Denisova DNA was found in a similar region & also found in Oceania today!

Perhaps this is support of Oceania peoples coming from Central Asia!

There is high Y DNA C haplogroup in Mongolia & also Oceania!

Maybe Mongolians with C haplogroup were like Oceanians before they became mostly Asiatic!?

What you see as caucasoid look on Austronesian speakers is just the Papuan admixture.


Dark skin in the cold works wrong. Oceanians and Siberia doesn´t fit, and the migration of dark skinned through glaciers that they couldn´t know how they would end neither. As this data can only be generated and checked by small circles, all of it must be taken with care.

Seriously get over with the dark skin. NOBODY HAD LIGHT FEATURES 20K AGO. That just how it is.

[mr. logan]

Dark skin and cold are senseless, as believing that dark skinned people, getting weaker by the lack of sun, will start walking into a glacier to see what is in the distance. 20k years ago there was obviously White people in the cold weather. Dark skin doesn´t develop in it and the bodies found in cold locations could not be dark skinned.

[Black Wolf]

Dark skin and cold are senseless, as believing that dark skinned people, getting weaker by the lack of sun, will start walking into a glacier to see what is in the distance. 20k years ago there was obviously White people in the cold weather. Dark skin doesn´t develop in it and the bodies found in cold locations could not be dark skinned.

Actually even though the Inuit are fairly pale on parts of their bodies that are not exposed to the sun the parts that are exposed such as their faces and hands can tan as dark as leather. Hence Inuit really are fairly dark skinned when they can be in the sun. They managed to maintain this dark skin because their diets are rich in vitamins from the different types of meat they eat.

[papa diddy pop]

Don't really surprise me . when we see that R,Q and even N, O are closely related to each others.

[Black Wolf]

I wonder where the Y-DNA haplogroup IJ brothas were kicking it at during this time?...I in Europe and J in the Near East?

[mr. logan]

Actually even though the Inuit are fairly pale on parts of their bodies that are not exposed to the sun the parts that are exposed such as their faces and hands can tan as dark as leather. Hence Inuit really are fairly dark skinned when they can be in the sun. They managed to maintain this dark skin because their diets are rich in vitamins from the different types of meat they eat.

That would be for ice/snow reflection, which gives an adaptation for the sun burn from the ice, besides having a natural yellow pigmentation. Seal meat may not be a factor in skin tone. And Inuits are haplogroup Q, not R.

[Black Wolf]

Jean M over on Anthrogenica gives a good breakdown of her thoughts on the origins of mtDNA haplogroup U.

''U is not restricted to Palaeolithic Europeans. On the evidence so far we can deduce that U itself probably arose at what I call the Asian cross-roads, which is not an exact location, but just my term for the general area between the Persian Gulf, the Caspian and the Himalayan, Karakoram and Hindu Kush mountains, where we can surmise that groups of Homo sapiens went in different directions. Some went south into South Asia, some north to eventually reach north-east Asia and the Americas, some west towards the Levant. From the Levant we have another parting of the ways, with some U entering Europe (where it seems U5 was born) and some entering North Africa (where U6 was born.)

I deduce this pattern from the fact that U2 seems to have been born from U in the Asian cross-roads later on, since the oldest U2 subclades are found in South Asia, yet we also have U2 entering Europe in the Palaeolithic, apparently via the Caucasus. U3 appears to have arisen from U in the Levant.''

[daedal1]

Yeah there's no point worrying about something that's recent mix race.


Oceania DNA found in Siberia is interesting.

Denisova DNA was found in a similar region & also found in Oceania today!

Perhaps this is support of Oceania peoples coming from Central Asia!

There is high Y DNA C haplogroup in Mongolia & also Oceania!

Maybe Mongolians with C haplogroup were like Oceanians before they became mostly Asiatic!?

Or if you want to believe in the '3 major races', maybe all caucasoids are the descendants of F, while Mongoloids are the descendants of Australoid C/D (with Horners also being descendants E from DE/D), and negroids being the descendants of A/B people.

There hasn't even been a haplogroup CF found yet. Another possibility might be that C is the original Haplogroup of humans, and that F/DE, etc. are just downstream versions of C too. This would place asiatic australoids as the original humans, rather than african negroids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_de

After all, it has been suggested that E is derived from D:

"The YAP insertion was discovered by scientists led by Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona.[10] Between 1997 and 1998 Hammer published three articles relating to the origins of haplogroup DE.[11][12][13] These articles state that YAP insertion occurred in Asia. As recently as 2007, some studies such as Chandrasekar et al. 2007, cite the publications by Hammer when arguing for an Asian origin of the YAP insertion.[5]
The scenarios outlined by Hammer include an out of Africa migration over 100,000 years ago, the YAP+ insertion on an Asian Y-chromosome 55,000 years ago and a back migration of YAP+ from Asia to Africa 31,000 years ago by its subclade haplogroup E.[13] This analysis was based on the fact that older African lineages, such as haplogroups A and B, were YAP negative whereas the younger lineage, haplogroup E was YAP positive. Haplogroup D, which is YAP positive, was clearly an Asian lineage, being found only in East Asia with high frequencies in Japan and Tibet. Because the mutations that define haplogroup E were observed to be in the ancestral state in haplogroup D, and haplogroup D at 55kya, was considerably older than haplogroup E at 31kya, Hammer concluded that haplogroup E was a subclade of haplogroup D.[13]"

[d3cimat3d]

The amount of batshit crazy folk in this forum is truly staggering.

What exactly is so crazy? By the way your signature was kind of random and maybe a little crazy. You responded to her post with some cowboy movie? I don't get it.:confused:

[Harkonnen]

What exactly is so crazy? By the way your signature was kind of random and maybe a little crazy. You responded to her post with some cowboy movie? I don't get it.:confused:

No my reply made perfect sense. She made some pretentious comment about 'oh there's nothing wrong with having admixture..jadajada..' making it seem like her or anybody else's opinion would have some kind of power to move me in some curious way. She was talking down to me & I put a stop to that situation. I'm an inanimate fucking object & you fuckers have no power to move me.

[Chad Rohlfsen]

Do they have autosomal and phenotype testing on paleolithic northern Europeans? Werent all Eurasians darker until 10000 years ago? Isnt that when blonde hair, blue eyes and fairer skin first appeared?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

What you see as caucasoid look on Austronesian speakers is just the Papuan admixture.



Seriously get over with the dark skin. NOBODY HAD LIGHT FEATURES 20K AGO. That just how it is.

In your retarded fantasy world. There was no reason for dark skin under fur, so it's completely ridiculous to make up some bullshit everyone starts with a million genes related to dark skin when they actually had fur originally. It's simply impossible to lose all those skin genes. All the stupid bullshits about albinos is just that - they have a damaged part of their genes which is nothing like the difference between whites and blacks and asians, It would take minimum of 100k years to lose dozens of genes that were fixed in a whole population, and even the staunchest OOA retard doesn't suggest it could possibly have happened once they left africa, because it couldn't possibly have. You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Actually even though the Inuit are fairly pale on parts of their bodies that are not exposed to the sun the parts that are exposed such as their faces and hands can tan as dark as leather. Hence Inuit really are fairly dark skinned when they can be in the sun. They managed to maintain this dark skin because their diets are rich in vitamins from the different types of meat they eat.

In the americas the further south you get the paler everyone is. The innuit are darker because they only came to north america a few thousand years ago and are mroe intermixed.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I wonder where the Y-DNA haplogroup IJ brothas were kicking it at during this time?...I in Europe and J in the Near East?

The gravetian culture where ancient greece and south italy are today is almost certainly where they were.

[Harkonnen]

Actually now that I think about it, she really should apologize me for insulting me and hurting my feelings.

Waiting..

[blogen]

All the stupid bullshits about albinos is just that they have a damaged part of their genes which is nothing like the difference between whites and blacks and asians, It would take minimum of 100k years to lose dozens of genes that were fixed in a whole population, and even the staunchest OOA retard doesn't suggest it could possibly have happened once they left africa, because it couldn't possibly have. You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

Albino iraqi:
http://www.greenleft.org.au/sites/default/files/imagecache/article-image/hadi_ahmadi.jpg

Yes, if the swarthies are depigmented, than they will be whites, real whites and not albino negroes! The historical depigmentation is very similar to the albinism, but of course not albinism.

[Black Wolf]

The gravetian culture where ancient greece and south italy are today is almost certainly where they were.

It seems like we can call haplogroups G and IJ (both I an J) Paleo-West-Eurasian...I wonder if it is likely that there was any Y-DNA haplogroup J in Southern Europe during the Upper Paleolithic or Mesolithic along with it's brother haplogroup I?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Albino iraqi:
http://www.greenleft.org.au/sites/default/files/imagecache/article-image/hadi_ahmadi.jpg

Yes, if the swarthies are depigmented, than they will be whites, real whites and not albino negroes! The historical depigmentation is very similar to the albinism, but of course not albinism.

Albino is ONE gene.

Skin color is about 50 genes. That's why this doesn't work.

:lol:

I have said that about 5 times now, nothing you are saying makes any sense and it's not possible.

[Harkonnen]

In your retarded fantasy world. There was no reason for dark skin under fur, so it's completely ridiculous to make up some bullshit everyone starts with a million genes related to dark skin when they actually had fur originally. It's simply impossible to lose all those skin genes. All the stupid bullshits about albinos is just that - they have a damaged part of their genes which is nothing like the difference between whites and blacks and asians, It would take minimum of 100k years to lose dozens of genes that were fixed in a whole population, and even the staunchest OOA retard doesn't suggest it could possibly have happened once they left africa, because it couldn't possibly have. You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

http://d1vmp8zzttzftq.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/lanscape-of-the-great-rift-valley-in-kenya-africa-1600x1066.jpg

[blogen]

Albino is ONE gene.
Skin color is about 50 genes. That's why this doesn't work.
:lol:
I have said that about 5 times now, nothing you are saying makes any sense and it's not possible.

Again: the historical depigmentation was not albinoism. There was a series of beneficial mutations. And worked, because there are pale peoples in Europe.

[Harkonnen]

It seems like we can call haplogroups G and IJ (both I an J) Paleo-West-Eurasian...I wonder if it is likely that there was any Y-DNA haplogroup J in Southern Europe during the Upper Paleolithic or Mesolithic along with it's brother haplogroup I?

Why oh why are retarded wogs so obsessed about the north?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Again: the historical depigmentation was not albinoism.

Ok, let me say it again, it's about 50 genes you'd need to lose. You don't see this as a problem, but it's impossible to lose 50 genes that are fixed in a population in a short time like this. This did not happen. It is impossible to happen. Anthropologists and geneticists do not propose this happened because they know it's impossible. You have simply made it up with no evidence to back it up (and no evidence is really possible except finding exhaustive dna evidence for most populations in the right times).

First read about what scientists claim happened before you make up new stuff, which is what you are doing now.

[Black Wolf]

Why oh why are retarded wogs so obsessed about the north?

Are you calling me retarded?

[Harkonnen]

Melonhead? Did you know that East Asians have actually more Neanderthal admixture than Westerners. Are you perhaps Chinese? Chinese are known for their melonheads so it would kinda make sense.

[Black Wolf]

Melonhead? Did you know that East Asians have actually more Neanderthal admixture than Westerners. Are you perhaps Chinese? Chinese are known for their melonheads so it would kinda make sense.

Yo I'm talking to you!...Are you calling me a wog and retarded?

[Harkonnen]

I'm saying that if you fucking live in the south then FUCKING STAY THERE

[blogen]

Ok, let me say it again, it's about 50 genes you'd need to lose. You don't see this as a problem, but it's impossible to lose 50 genes that are fixed in a population in a short time like this. This did not happen. It is impossible to happen.

No, if you are a West Asian swarty, since they are almost white and the majority of the changes occurred earlier.


Anthropologists and geneticists do not propose this happened because they know it's impossible.

The genetic researches support the late time. (http://galsatia.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/blanche_paleur.pdf)

[daedal1]

Melonhead? Did you know that East Asians have actually more Neanderthal admixture than Westerners. Are you perhaps Chinese? Chinese are known for their melonheads so it would kinda make sense.

It's not neanderthal. It's called Denisovan.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-81x-N7FJNOo/UP7cYYc6jpI/AAAAAAAAIVA/8Y3uNLVuM-k/s1600/treemix.jpg

And Australoids allegedly have more of this denisovan ancestry.

Although I'm not sure how accurate these admixture estimates for denisovans and neanderthals in modern humans are, especially considering how remote Oceanians have more denisovan admixture than east asians, even though denisovan was from siberia.... It could just be an attempt to reconcile the holes in the Out-of-Africa theory.

[Jackson]

I'm saying that if you fucking live in the south then FUCKING STAY THERE

Canada is fairly northern to be honest.

[Black Wolf]

I'm saying that if you fucking live in the south then FUCKING STAY THERE

I live in Canada you FUCK TARD!...BTW yes I am partially wog?...Do you have a problem with that?...Also I don't see how you see any obsession with the North being mentioned in my post to Melonhead above...I think I know who you are from other forums...Your bullshit especially about the Finnish genome is quite unbearable...You have insecurities about Finns coming from a small founder population and you try to back up your theories with retarded explanations...Shut the fuck up!

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Melonhead? Did you know that East Asians have actually more Neanderthal admixture than Westerners. Are you perhaps Chinese? Chinese are known for their melonheads so it would kinda make sense.

My ancient ancestry that gave me such a huge head is a mystery. I am hyperbrachicephalic with cranial index of about 88. So that's actually rather asian/mongoloid (beyond it really) so I could be a predarked up mongol type - I have mtdna v. But like someone said denisova are not quite the same as neanderthal, though related.

[Black Wolf]

The gravetian culture where ancient greece and south italy are today is almost certainly where they were.

Hey Melon do you think there is a possibility that some Y-DNA J may have been in Southern or Southeastern Europe during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic?

[Black Wolf]

Canada is fairly northern to be honest.

Yup and I am a true Canuck lol! Born and raised! :)

[Prisoner Of Ice]

No, if you are a West Asian swarty, since they are almost white and the majority of the changes occurred earlier.



The genetic researches support the late time. (http://galsatia.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/blanche_paleur.pdf)

The time to most recent ancestor (even if it were possible to estimate) says nothing about the actual age. I said already right in here that the TMRCA for R clade differentiation is less than 24k years. So if this logic were true it would be impossible for this guy to have the y-dna he did. No scientist makes these claims, this is the idiotic news reporters leaping to conclusions.

The out of africa threory says that small groups escaped africa, had genetic drift to become different races, and through founder effect populated eurasia. They have the population dates and times required for this to happen, all of which are way further back that 24k years, but the important thing is to realize by their theory or race differentiation people are already the "proper" race once they get to the location they reside in. So it's this theory or the multiregionalism which says they have bee separate forever. Anything else and youa re just making crap up.

The reason you can't make crap up is because genetic drift has strict mathematical requirements to be possible. You have to have very small populations and great amounts of time or it does not happen. In large groups it simply never happens at all. Son inshort what you are saying is made up and impossible.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Hey Melon do you think there is a possibility that some Y-DNA J may have been in Southern or Southeastern Europe during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic?

Yeah, it's almost certain to have been there all along. There's lots of K in greece. It's almost certain this is where IJK originally lived, and split off into everything else.

[Black Wolf]

Yeah, it's almost certain to have been there all along. There's lots of K in greece. It's almost certain this is where IJK originally lived, and split off into everything else.

So Y-DNA haplogroup J could have possibly been present in both Southern Europe and West Asia/Near East during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic then. Of course we need ancient DNA to prove or disprove this. If it was proven to be correct it would kind of shatter the whole Y-DNA haplogroup J coming to Europe only during the Neolithic or later hypothesis.

[Harkonnen]

J is Uralic, Mordvins are stacked with it. This is no joke bro-

[Black Wolf]

J is Uralic, Mordvins are stacked with it. This is no joke bro-

You are quite the retarded troll aren't you?

[Harkonnen]

I'm no troll, you can look for yourself

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Erzya-Moksha%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=ysnp

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So Y-DNA haplogroup J could have possibly been present in both Southern Europe and West Asia/Near East during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic then. Of course we need ancient DNA to prove or disprove this. If it was proven to be correct it would kind of shatter the whole Y-DNA haplogroup J coming to Europe only during the Neolithic or later hypothesis.

Well I J and K are really all related anyway, and highly european. It's only recently that they have darkened up a bit through mixing in middle east. You are probably actually a better example of ancient J than most arabic J.

It's probable that clades were on a tribal basis before neolithic and you'd find some R tribes, some I tribes and some J tribes and some K. When people started to live in towns the smaller tribe's genes would drift out. Now that modern time has big populations, drift is impossible so clades don't disappear like that any more. That's why italy and greece are so mixed up and hard to untangle.

[Black Wolf]

I'm no troll, you can look for yourself

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Erzya-Moksha%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Holy shit I am surprised..I did not expect that...Are these J2 individuals confirmed Mordvins along their paternal lines?

[Harkonnen]

Also H is related to I & J. You forgot that. Gypsy's were originally Euros.

[Harkonnen]

Yeah it's amazing stuff really. Also plenty of r1b, I1, I2 & G. I think Moxas were originally Paleolithic west Euros.

[Black Wolf]

Also H is related to I & J. You forgot that. Gypsy's were originally Euros.

I actually see that quite a few of those J2 Modrvins list their paternal ancestors as Tatar.

[Harkonnen]

Turkics were original paleofolk?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Also back to the genetic drift, the models they come up with only say it's POSSIBLE not that it WOULD happen. You could also have grow horns randomly with those parameters, too. So why was that the only big thing to happen?

Basically they assume you had an effective population size of about 1000...for 50k years, for each of the big race splits. It's not impossible (you can actually do the math) but like I said the lack of other random changes makes it seem very unlikely. But even so, if this did happen like this it means people were already white when they got to europe and asian when they got to asian.

[daedal1]

Also back to the genetic drift, the models they come up with only say it's POSSIBLE not that it WOULD happen. You could also have grow horns randomly with those parameters, too. So why was that the only big thing to happen?

Basically they assume you had an effective population size of about 1000...for 50k years, for each of the big race splits. It's not impossible (you can actually do the math) but like I said the lack of other random changes makes it seem very unlikely. But even so, if this did happen like this it means people were already white when they got to europe and asian when they got to asian.

The oldest Homo Erectus is from Georgia. The original humans were possibly Asians, C being the original human group. A/B could have been derived from an ancient variety of C, but this link between australoids and negroids was cut off after the mt toba explosion which wiped out huge swathes of humanity. Then we had massive bottlenecks, with the australoid-like people like in east asia becoming isolated and turning into mongoloids, while the australoid like people in western eurasia becoming caucasoids. So, these neanderthal/denisovan components that africans don't have could simply be representative of mutations that evolved in asia, after the humans in africa had already arrived from asia.

Also see Homo floresiensis

[Harkonnen]

Anyway J-man, too much internet too soon today from my part, so sorry for loosing my temper a bit there J. It showed weakness from my part.

Good night J-man-bro -

Over & out-

[Black Wolf]

Anyway J-man, too much internet too soon today from my part, so sorry for loosing my temper a bit there J. It showed weakness from my part.

Good night J-man-bro -

Over & out-

Good night then.

[d3cimat3d]

No my reply made perfect sense. She made some pretentious comment about 'oh there's nothing wrong with having admixture..jadajada..' making it seem like her or anybody else's opinion would have some kind of power to move me in some curious way. She was talking down to me & I put a stop to that situation. I'm an inanimate fucking object & you fuckers have no power to move me.

How does posting some random cowboy movie trailer make sense?

I know Finns have this habbit of being random as fck:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?95458-PUSH!

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90065-ABF-down-thread&p=1955880#post1955880

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90065-ABF-down-thread&p=1955996#post1955996

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90065-ABF-down-thread&p=1955901#post1955901

^ Talk about batshit crazy lol

BOOM

[Harkonnen]

For those with eyes & ears it should make perfect sense. It starts with the scene of a snake slithering on Jesse's hand. The snake represents of course this she-devil woman ready to stab me in the back, just like the coward Robert Ford, all the while whispering sweet nothings to my ear. On the third scene, quickly following, we have the line:

"He's just a human being-"

This tells of the universal human condition and on this particular occasion it just tells you, that it's ok I understand & I will forgive her, just like Jesus would. Even though she still hasn't apologized me. But I'm bigger man than that, so it's alright girl, it's alright, I understand.

[Black Wolf]

What I find most interesting about this is that mtDNA haplogroup U again has been shown to have had such a massively wide spread of distribution during the Upper Paleolithic...From Western Europe in the far West to Siberia in the East!

[Black Wolf]

I would not be surprised at all actually if my own mtDNA line which is U5b2c2 has been in Ireland, Britain or at least Western Europe since the Upper Paleolithic. After all the Mesolithic La Brana samples from Spain were also U5b2c but they are U5b2c1 whereas I am U5b2c2.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I would not be surprised at all actually if my own mtDNA line which is U5b2c2 has been in Ireland, Britain or at least Western Europe since the Upper Paleolithic. After all the Mesolithic La Brana samples from Spain were also U5b2c but they are U5b2c1 whereas I am U5b2c2.

Mine is V which looks similarly spread out in europe. Shamefully it's most common for finnbarfs like the inbred in this thread. I thought it was stronk Celtiberian DNA but guess not.

[Black Wolf]

Mine is V which looks similarly spread out in europe. Shamefully it's most common for finnbarfs like the inbred in this thread. I thought it was stronk Celtiberian DNA but guess not.

Yes it is interesting to see that both U5 and V dominate the mtDNA among the Saami. I would not be surprised some day as more samples are tested from Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic samples from Europe if some V shows up. It`s absence so far is very mysterious though.

[Black Wolf]

Mine is V which looks similarly spread out in europe. Shamefully it's most common for finnbarfs like the inbred in this thread. I thought it was stronk Celtiberian DNA but guess not.

BTW Melon I am curious which subclade of V are you past of?..Do you know?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

BTW Melon I am curious which subclade of V are you past of?..Do you know?

Nah, I didn't even get tested myself it was my cousin on my mother's side. I didn't know there even were clades. There's really almost no info about V.

[Black Wolf]

Nah, I didn't even get tested myself it was my cousin on my mother's side. I didn't know there even were clades. There's really almost no info about V.

Ahhh okay thanks...Yup there certainly are clades. Every haplogroup has clades. :)

[Argang]

Yes it is interesting to see that both U5 and V dominate the mtDNA among the Saami. I would not be surprised some day as more samples are tested from Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic samples from Europe if some V shows up. It`s absence so far is very mysterious though.


Apparently Behar has suggested (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_V_%28mtDNA%29#cite_note-Doron-1) V is of Neolithic and Middle Eastern origin. There's not enough proof to say that is certain, but if true it explains why V is not appearing in older remains.

[Black Wolf]

Apparently Behar has suggested (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_V_%28mtDNA%29#cite_note-Doron-1) V is of Neolithic and Middle Eastern origin. There's not enough proof to say that is certain, but if true it explains why V is not appearing in older remains.

I suppose anything is really a possibility for V right now.

[Pure ja]

Dark skin in the cold works wrong. Oceanians and Siberia doesn´t fit, and the migration of dark skinned through glaciers that they couldn´t know how they would end neither. As this data can only be generated and checked by small circles, all of it must be taken with care.

Dark skin is preferable in front of snow, glaciers and mountains.

Pale skin was necessary during the holocene maximum around the coastal areas of the Bay of Bothnia - warm summer + warm waters + Gulf Stream kept autumn long and snowcover might have arrived as late as the winter solstice. Dark October and November at a 65th northern latitude won't generate enough vitamin D. Seal hunters and fishermen got enough sunshine at sea, but their women and children on the coastline didn't, because of lack of snow. Bay of Bothnia has the mildest climate at that latitude, holocene maximum enhanced that further. Holocene maximum was around 10 000 to 5 000 years ago.

[mr. logan]

Wat u say, nigger???

[Black Wolf]

Apparently both the Mal’ta sample and the Afontova Gora sample were found to be Y-DNA R and mtDNA U! That is what the fellow who released this info to us says..We are still waiting for the official release of the paper for this study though! Wooohooo chalk another one up for mtDNA haplogroup U! Oh and of course you Y-DNA R guys too! :D

[safinator]

You did not have truth then. First Pale skin invention = late Mesolithic peoples in Europe (Lapponoids and Cromagnoids), but there was a second wave possibly, the Nordics and other exceptionally blond and red caracters are possibly depigmentated neolithic swarties (the original R carriers).

R presence in Europe is dated in bronze age so later than Neolithic.

[blogen]

R presence in Europe is dated in bronze age so later than Neolithic.

The R1a arrived into Europe before the agriculture. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987245/)

[Artek]

It would explain a presence of R1* among the Indians of North America.(Clovis culture?)

[Mortimer]

appears genetically like a mix between modern Europeans, Amerindians and Oceanians. Apparently his Y-DNA belongs to haplogroup R and mtDNA to haplogroup U.

and not "chinese or japanese" it is not "mongoloid" and he was swarthier then oetzi, the first humans in europe were not white either. and that disproves that R descendts from whites

[Jackson]

appears genetically like a mix between modern Europeans, Amerindians and Oceanians. Apparently his Y-DNA belongs to haplogroup R and mtDNA to haplogroup U.

and not "chinese or japanese" it is not "mongoloid" and he was swarthier then oetzi, the first humans in europe were not white either. and that disproves that R descendts from whites

Well no paragroup like R, or I or E would technically, as the mutations that make modern white people recognisably white in the modern sense most likely occurred after these y-dna mutations. So some of the much younger sub-groups would have developed in people who looked visibly 'white'. But anyway modern R is well represented in people that range from a darkish brown skin tone to an ivory white skin tone, just so happens that most of the R in Europe is carried by people who have pale or relatively pale skin.

[Mortimer]

Well no paragroup like R, or I or E would technically, as the mutations that make modern white people recognisably white in the modern sense most likely occurred after these y-dna mutations. So some of the much younger sub-groups would have developed in people who looked visibly 'white'. But anyway modern R is well represented in people that range from a darkish brown skin tone to an ivory white skin tone, just so happens that most of the R in Europe is carried by people who have pale or relatively pale skin.

thats true, but some claim that the darkish people have the R from the white poeple and explain everything with white admixture in darkies, now we see that some connection is way older before whites existed. and the whole picture is way more complicated then hobby anthropologists who are usually racist portray it

[Smeagol]

R1a probably originated in the darker (olive) Caucasoids of Central Asia, before pale skin.
Whites were the first people in Europe though, they just weren't as light as modern day north Europeans.

[Jackson]

thats true, but some claim that the darkish people have the R from the white poeple and explain everything with white admixture in darkies, now we see that some connection is way older before whites existed. and the whole picture is way more complicated then hobby anthropologists who are usually racist portray it

That is a good point. It seems more a case that modern European populations in which R is dominant became lighter from a darker pigmentation, rather than the other way around. Although R1 does not look to specifically correlate with very light colouring as a whole, so maybe those mutations arose in a population with little or no R/R1.

[Fire Haired]

thats true, but some claim that the darkish people have the R from the white poeple and explain everything with white admixture in darkies, now we see that some connection is way older before whites existed. and the whole picture is way more complicated then hobby anthropologists who are usually racist portray it

Almost everything you said is debatable. Y DNA R is Mongoloid everyone should know that it is just a direct make linage. subclade R1b1a2a1a L11 did not became widespread and popular like today till starting just 5,000ybp same for R1a1a1b1 Z283 and R1a1a1b2 Z93. R1b most likely originated around the Near east and R1a1a M17 in Europe but before that who knows. Y DNA R tells nothing about the origin of Europeans and all Caucasians it became a popular paternal line randomly mainly in the last 5,000 years. These results don't surprise me at all I don't really think anyone was claiming y DNA R originated in Europe.

You cant say before whites existed because what do you mean. White people did not come from Mars or randomly appear there from this earth so the have ancestry going back as far as any living thing. If what you mean is when Europeans ancestors went from having skin color of near easterns to today. That is also very debatable of when It happened. I know that in autosomal DNA groups unique to Europe correlate very closely to light hair and eyes in Europe. Also that based on autosomal DNA of Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers groups like North Euro would probably be 100% in most of Europe. Probably also meaning Europe was much paler before farming started to spread 9,000ybp. And when these people arrived in Europe probably over 30,000-50,000ybp and were probably extremely pale over 10,000ybp. That leaves a lot of room so there is a possibility Europeans ancestors were pale skinned 24,000 years ago. But who knows we cant predict what so many millions of people looked like 1,000's of years ago. Some of what I said might not totally mean Europe was paler before farming we need 100's of individuals with pigmentation genes across Europe to know that. I have made this point many times on this website all those "European" alleles at SLC24A5, SLC45A2, and TYR which are suppose to cause European pale skin and they base their age estimates on it. They are not very European there about as popular in all other Caucasians(Near easterns, north Africans, and north Indians) as in Europeans. So those age estimates of originally 6,000-12,000ybp and recently they raised it to 11,000-19,000ybp are useless.

[daedal1]

Almost everything you said is debatable. Y DNA R is Mongoloid everyone should know that it is just a direct make linage. subclade R1b1a2a1a L11 did not became widespread and popular like today till starting just 5,000ybp same for R1a1a1b1 Z283 and R1a1a1b2 Z93. R1b most likely originated around the Near east and R1a1a M17 in Europe but before that who knows. Y DNA R tells nothing about the origin of Europeans and all Caucasians it became a popular paternal line randomly mainly in the last 5,000 years. These results don't surprise me at all I don't really think anyone was claiming y DNA R originated in Europe.

You cant say before whites existed because what do you mean. White people did not come from Mars or randomly appear there from this earth so the have ancestry going back as far as any living thing. If what you mean is when Europeans ancestors went from having skin color of near easterns to today. That is also very debatable of when It happened. I know that in autosomal DNA groups unique to Europe correlate very closely to light hair and eyes in Europe. Also that based on autosomal DNA of Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers groups like North Euro would probably be 100% in most of Europe. Probably also meaning Europe was much paler before farming started to spread 9,000ybp. And when these people arrived in Europe probably over 30,000-50,000ybp and were probably extremely pale over 10,000ybp. That leaves a lot of room so there is a possibility Europeans ancestors were pale skinned 24,000 years ago. But who knows we cant predict what so many millions of people looked like 1,000's of years ago. Some of what I said might not totally mean Europe was paler before farming we need 100's of individuals with pigmentation genes across Europe to know that. I have made this point many times on this website all those "European" alleles at SLC24A5, SLC45A2, and TYR which are suppose to cause European pale skin and they base their age estimates on it. They are not very European there about as popular in all other Caucasians(Near easterns, north Africans, and north Indians) as in Europeans. So those age estimates of originally 6,000-12,000ybp and recently they raised it to 11,000-19,000ybp are useless.

If K (Mongoloid) split from IJ (Caucasoid) according to your theory, then how do Mongoloids end up genetically closer to C/D Australoids than to IJ Caucasoids?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

If K (Mongoloid) split from IJ (Caucasoid) according to your theory, then how do Mongoloids end up genetically closer to C/D Australoids than to IJ Caucasoids?

It's not really a theory that K split off from IJ.

The reason that they are closer to australoids is they admixed.

I is as white as it gets and r1b is the main clade of europe and completely white in origins (spain was completely white before arab expansion).

You couldn't have had white evlve in R clades, or else I people would not be white.

Really you could not have that happen anyway. Eveolution happens once for major things, period. IJK ancestor race at one point was one race and it was white/"european'.

Nothing else is possible, and nothing else is theorized by anyone except on message boards, that's just the way it works. Even out of africa says exactly this is the way that races formed and it's very afrocentric. You can argue a bit about chronological split of races but not where they split off in regards to clades.

[Fire Haired]

It's not really a theory that K split off from IJ.

The reason that they are closer to australoids is they admixed.

I is as white as it gets and r1b is the main clade of europe and completely white in origins (spain was completely white before arab expansion).

You couldn't have had white evlve in R clades, or else I people would not be white.

Really you could not have that happen anyway. Eveolution happens once for major things, period. IJK ancestor race at one point was one race and it was white/"european'.

Nothing else is possible, and nothing else is theorized by anyone except on message boards, that's just the way it works. Even out of africa says exactly this is the way that races formed and it's very afrocentric. You can argue a bit about chronological split of races but not where they split off in regards to clades.

Melon head what your saying is totally wrong. Y DNA is just a direct male line. Almost 100% of R1b in west Europe is under deep subclade R1b1a2a1a L11 which is estimated to be just 5,000-6,000 years old. 31 y DNA samples from Neolithic west Europe not one had R1b. R1b1a2a1a L11 probably originated in central Europe and its main subclades P312 and U106 spread mainly in the last 4,000 years. It is definitely also the spread of Germanic and Italo Celtic tribes. 50% of west European men direct male line was in Caucus, Near east, or Anatolia just 8,000 years ago. But that is just direct male line R1b in no way defines Europeans.

Autosomal DNA which takes ancestry from all lines not just direct maternal or paternal. There are Dodecade K7b, K12b, and globe13 results from 5 Europeans from Mesolithic, Neolithic, and copper age. All definitely non R1b and R1a and non Indo European. They show that the genetic makeup in modern Europeans was there and R1a, R1b, and Indo Europeans don't define Europeans at all. What the results show is that North Euro in globe13 and K12b is from pre Neolithic Europe and may descend from people who came tow Europe from the Near east over 30,000 years ago. It also shows that Meditreaen, west Asian, and southwest Asian came to Europe with spread of farming.


mtDNA and autosomal DNA of European hunter gathers seems to say that in pre Neolithic Europe people in Sweden, Spain, Italy, France, Russia, Germany, England all were very united genetically they had the same common ancestry that came to Europe in the Palaeolithic maybe over 30,000ybp.The spread of farming from the near east brought many new mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups and new autosomal ancestry. Since really the Neolithic there have been constant migrations of different people mixing conquering's tons of stuff. All of this created the crazy mix's that are everywhere in Europe today and major differences between different Europeans also in Physical appearance.

You simplify race you cant base everything on physical appearance you have to be base it on DNA. The Oceania have black skin and nappy hair pretty much completely identical to sub sahran Africans but are very unrelated. It is hard to connect Y DNA direct male lines to certain human races. We know through Autosomal DNA that Europeans, north Africans, and middle easterns are in the same family or race. Since Y DNA I is very diverse in Europe and a very old age in Europe probably 30,000 years or so and same for y DNA J I the middle east. It makes sense that their father y DNA IJ did exist over 40,000ybp in Caucasians in the Near east. Probably same for y DNA F and C.

[Rowan]

Doesn't get more europoid than this.



This is actually a pretty poor reconstruction. This guy has very heavy neanderthal admixture. Look at that nasal angle and the forehead slope. Again this is as european-looking as it gets, and it's pretty obvious it didn't come to europe as many think. Whole area from iberia to eurasian steps and caucas was all related since at least last ice age.

Which is more or less proved by this newspiece anyway, and only came into doubt with some sampling of neolithic farmers that seemed to show otherwise.

You are very astute. Nose angle is the most evident sign of Neanderthal DNA level. I have a Facebook group called Neander Files that details the history, with over 6,000 photos. Reconstructions indeed tend to downplay that feature in ancient skulls. I would add that Asia, the Americas, North Africa, & possibly East Africa, were largely Neanderthaloid since the Ice Age as well.

[colony]

I can't remember the conclusion of the anthropologists publishing the article I read. The study was done on craniums found near Polotsk, northern Belarus - the region that attracted a lot of interest among archeologists. The age of craniums used in the study were 300 years apart. You can search for the article if you are interested. I remember Marija Gimbutas referenced archeological findings in her book presenting maps in eastern Baltic (Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus, western Russia, Estonia) on which long norrow craniums were found.

Maybe environmental led to those changes.

Andronovo is non baltic, but turanid. Andronovo was Cro Magnonid C, it was influenced by Tungid in 10% and its the Turanid. Andronovo ydna r1a1 90%, c 10% .

[I've Her Son]

Melon head what your saying is totally wrong. Y DNA is just a direct male line. Almost 100% of R1b in west Europe is under deep subclade R1b1a2a1a L11 which is estimated to be just 5,000-6,000 years old. 31 y DNA samples from Neolithic west Europe not one had R1b. R1b1a2a1a L11 probably originated in central Europe and its main subclades P312 and U106 spread mainly in the last 4,000 years. It is definitely also the spread of Germanic and Italo Celtic tribes. 50% of west European men direct male line was in Caucus, Near east, or Anatolia just 8,000 years ago. But that is just direct male line R1b in no way defines Europeans.

Autosomal DNA which takes ancestry from all lines not just direct maternal or paternal. There are Dodecade K7b, K12b, and globe13 results from 5 Europeans from Mesolithic, Neolithic, and copper age. All definitely non R1b and R1a and non Indo European. They show that the genetic makeup in modern Europeans was there and R1a, R1b, and Indo Europeans don't define Europeans at all. What the results show is that North Euro in globe13 and K12b is from pre Neolithic Europe and may descend from people who came tow Europe from the Near east over 30,000 years ago. It also shows that Meditreaen, west Asian, and southwest Asian came to Europe with spread of farming.


mtDNA and autosomal DNA of European hunter gathers seems to say that in pre Neolithic Europe people in Sweden, Spain, Italy, France, Russia, Germany, England all were very united genetically they had the same common ancestry that came to Europe in the Palaeolithic maybe over 30,000ybp.The spread of farming from the near east brought many new mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups and new autosomal ancestry. Since really the Neolithic there have been constant migrations of different people mixing conquering's tons of stuff. All of this created the crazy mix's that are everywhere in Europe today and major differences between different Europeans also in Physical appearance.

You simplify race you cant base everything on physical appearance you have to be base it on DNA. The Oceania have black skin and nappy hair pretty much completely identical to sub sahran Africans but are very unrelated. It is hard to connect Y DNA direct male lines to certain human races. We know through Autosomal DNA that Europeans, north Africans, and middle easterns are in the same family or race. Since Y DNA I is very diverse in Europe and a very old age in Europe probably 30,000 years or so and same for y DNA J I the middle east. It makes sense that their father y DNA IJ did exist over 40,000ybp in Caucasians in the Near east. Probably same for y DNA F and C.

You take that keyboard of yours and you jam it up your cocksucking ass, you bitch. There are people who live up in there who share opinions with you. Europe was very segregated by appearance for thousands of years after neolithic times and not "mixed" in any way. The apparent "mix" you are detecting is a result of the industrial revolution and the enlightenment tearing down borders and enabling people to travel easily with new technologies; nothing more. These stupid fucking "haplogroups" (all of which are about to be shown as having origins within the past 300 years) mean nothing at all.

[Kale]

You take that keyboard of yours and you jam it up your cocksucking ass, you bitch. There are people who live up in there who share opinions with you. Europe was very segregated by appearance for thousands of years after neolithic times and not "mixed" in any way. The apparent "mix" you are detecting is a result of the industrial revolution and the enlightenment tearing down borders and enabling people to travel easily with new technologies; nothing more. These stupid fucking "haplogroups" (all of which are about to be shown as having origins within the past 300 years) mean nothing at all.

Donkey Jizz.

Good post Fire Haired.

[Gaston]

You take that keyboard of yours and you jam it up your cocksucking ass, you bitch. There are people who live up in there who share opinions with you. Europe was very segregated by appearance for thousands of years after neolithic times and not "mixed" in any way. The apparent "mix" you are detecting is a result of the industrial revolution and the enlightenment tearing down borders and enabling people to travel easily with new technologies; nothing more. These stupid fucking "haplogroups" (all of which are about to be shown as having origins within the past 300 years) mean nothing at all.

Butthurt of being the product of multiracial mixing for millennia?

By the way, just because you don't know what haplogroups are doesn't mean it "means nothing". To you yes, but to scientists and those few of us here who get it, they are one major tool in the process of understanding the genesis of modern (pre-globalized ones) populations.

[Fire Haired]

You take that keyboard of yours and you jam it up your cocksucking ass, you bitch. There are people who live up in there who share opinions with you. Europe was very segregated by appearance for thousands of years after neolithic times and not "mixed" in any way. The apparent "mix" you are detecting is a result of the industrial revolution and the enlightenment tearing down borders and enabling people to travel easily with new technologies; nothing more. These stupid fucking "haplogroups" (all of which are about to be shown as having origins within the past 300 years) mean nothing at all.

Haplogroups and all this genetic stuff is real, and we can learn alot from it. I don't understand why so many people have a problem with Europeans being genetically very admixed(in terms of the stone age), and having a complicated history, like most humans in the world. People are not making up theories about European's genetic origins because they hate Europeans, they are just trying to find the truth.

[I've Her Son]

Fact: Haplogroups are real.

Fact: Haplogroups are poorly understood, and their hypothesized origins are constantly changing as researchers examine the dearth of archaeological material that yields any DNA, using ever-evolving computer software technology that is only in its infancy.

Fact: Haplogroups can tell us nothing about events that happened in the past, have no scientific value whatsoever, and the obsession Euroanthro amateurs have for them resembles the Japanese obsession with blood-type mysticism.

Fact: Kale is a dipegmented Mongolo-Negroid with an ugly, planooccipital vault.

Fact: Chwarae's immediate family members were anally fist-fucked by their German conquerors. This is the evidence he puts forward of intermixing in Europe.

[Fire Haired]

Fact: Haplogroups are real.

Fact: Haplogroups are poorly understood, and their hypothesized origins are constantly changing as researchers examine the dearth of archaeological material that yields any DNA, using ever-evolving computer software technology that is only in its infancy.]

You don't know enough about them to judge how accurate predictions are, or how theories have changed overtime. Actually many theories have been proven correct with ancient DNA. Both Y DNA I and mtDNA U5 were predicted to be descended from stone age European hunter gatherers, and ancient DNA has proven that is correct. Y DNA R1a-M417 was theorized to have spread with Indo European languages(specifically Balto-Slavic and Indo Iranian) and now we have ancient Y DNA from the Andronovo(early Indo Iranian) and Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to proto-Balto Slavic) showing they mainly had R1a. After a relook at R1b's tree, many people predicted that it originated in west Asia and that west European specific R1b-L11 arrived in or after the Neolithic, and there are now dozens of ancient Y DNA samples proving it arrived about 5,000 years ago. The list goes on and on and on. A lot has been learned about human origins using DNA, and I don't understand why you assume it is all false.


[Fact: Haplogroups can tell us nothing about events that happened in the past, have no scientific value whatsoever, and the obsession Euroanthro amateurs have for them resembles the Japanese obsession with blood-type mysticism.]

They can tell us how everyone in the world is related maternally or paternally, which can tell us a lot about our genetic history. World class minds have worked on this stuff for decades, so how could someone online who has done hardly any work on it be right? You should do heavy research and not stubbornly only believe one theory.



[Fact: Chwarae's immediate family members were anally fist-fucked by their German conquerors. This is the evidence he puts forward of intermixing in Europe.

It is obvious that you are against the idea that Europeans are admixed because you think people who say that have an agenda against Europeans. This is not true at all no one is hating on Europeans they are just trying to find out what their genetic origins are. The fact is that like in most places of the world there has been a lot of action in Europe, the same old tribes that arrived 40,000 years ago have not been able to stay in the region of Europe(there is no lake of fire between Europe and Asia, it is the same piece of land) completely isolated.

To call a population admixed you have to find ancestors who were genetically different, and it is very easy to see that all Europeans are admixed in a large sense. They are a mix of three different stone age populations(identified with ancient DNA (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29789-Revised-Laz-Ancient-genomes-suggest-three-ancestral-populations-for-Europeans/page2)). The three populations are known as WHG, ANE, and EEF. WHG and ANE are purely from the same "west Eurasian" root, EEF is a mix of something very related to WHG from west Asia and "basal Eurasians". What is identified as "basal Eurasian" ancestry may be ancestry from a Eurasian people who split from east-west Eurasian's ancestors before east and west Eurasians split, a mix of a west Eurasian alleles and alleles from an unknown African population that had a complicated relationship with non-Africans, or something even more complicated.

WHG is the only exclusively European form of ancestry, and descends from Upper Palaeolithic hunter gatherers of Europe. ANE ancestry was discovered from 24,000 and 17,000 year old genomes in Siberia, and exists pretty strongly in all of Eurasia except east Asia. EEF is a mix of WHG(~20%) and ancient near easterns who are the main ancestors of modern middle easterns(and some Europeans).

In a very basic sense European's are a mix in varying proportions of two major stone age populations, north Eurasian hunter gatherers(ANE and WHG) and near easterns(mostly the ones who brought farming to Europe), who first meet up with each other during the Neolithic, which was the most important age in the history of humans in Europe.

[I've Her Son]

You don't know enough about them to judge how accurate predictions are, or how theories have changed overtime.

You are visibly upset that I have shat upon your holy grail; and that I know more about your own obsession than you do.


Actually many theories have been proven correct with ancient DNA. Both Y DNA I and mtDNA U5 were predicted to be descended from stone age European hunter gatherers, and ancient DNA has proven that is correct.

Except that the only stone age European hunter* DNA that has ever been analyzed comes from Neanderthals in Vindija, and there is no link to an "I-DNA" or "mtDNA U5" haplogroup.

*There were never any "hunter-gatherers" in Europe. All of the glacial European hunters were purely hunters and nothing more. There is no evidence of food gathering in the archaeological record, aside from a wooden digging spade made by a Neanderthal and found in Spain, and there should not be much evidence as there were no nutritionally significant foods to harvest in most parts of Europe at the time.


Y DNA R1a-M417 was theorized to have spread with Indo European languages(specifically Balto-Slavic and Indo Iranian) and now we have ancient Y DNA from the Andronovo(early Indo Iranian) and Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to proto-Balto Slavic) showing they mainly had R1a.

You are both wrong and misled. Haplogroup R1a-m417 is in the minority in modern Indo-European Europe and has nothing whatever to do with the peopling of Europe.
Most Europeans have an R1a subclade that is more similar to the African (Negroid) variant than the primarily south Asian m417 variant.

There is no concrete link between Andronovo and Corded Ware cultures and Indo-European languages; research on this issue resembles Japanese Nihonjinron nationalism with little or no scientific basis.


After a relook at R1b's tree, many people predicted that it originated in west Asia and that west European specific R1b-L11 arrived in or after the Neolithic, and there are now dozens of ancient Y DNA samples proving it arrived about 5,000 years ago. The list goes on and on and on. A lot has been learned about human origins using DNA, and I don't understand why you assume it is all false.

5,000 YBP is over 5,000 years after the Neolithic. The list does not go on and on, and the amount of archaic material yielding DNA is sparse. Haplotard fail.




They can tell us how everyone in the world is related maternally or paternally, which can tell us a lot about our genetic history.

No they cannot, and not it cannot.


World class minds have worked on this stuff for decades, so how could someone online who has done hardly any work on it be right? You should do heavy research and not stubbornly only believe one theory.

You have no idea how much work I have done, what I have or have not published, and are just a White trash, meth-addled redneck who has posted many lies on this forum. World class minds have not worked on this "stuff' for decades; it was discovered by accident in the mid 1980s and ever since then has been exponentially evolving as the next generation of man-made computer software programs fail to decipher it properly.




It is obvious that you are against the idea that Europeans are admixed because you think people who say that have an agenda against Europeans. This is not true at all no one is hating on Europeans they are just trying to find out what their genetic origins are. The fact is that like in most places of the world there has been a lot of action in Europe, the same old tribes that arrived 40,000 years ago have not been able to stay in the region of Europe(there is no lake of fire between Europe and Asia, it is the same piece of land) completely isolated.

It is obvious you subscribe to the refuted Out-of-Africa religion, which has been refuted. There was no "arrival of tribes" in to Europe 40,000 years ago; at this time only Neanderthals lived in Europe and the middle east, there is craniofacial and skeletal continuity in the European and near eastern fossil record from 50,000 to 20,000 YBP, and also continuity of culture; as the Perigordian evolved out of Levallois and was merely a continuation of the same culture using slightly different production methods.


To call a population admixed you have to find ancestors who were genetically different, and it is very easy to see that all Europeans are admixed in a large sense. They are a mix of three different stone age populations(identified with ancient DNA (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29789-Revised-Laz-Ancient-genomes-suggest-three-ancestral-populations-for-Europeans/page2)). The three populations are known as WHG, ANE, and EEF. WHG and ANE are purely from the same "west Eurasian" root, EEF is a mix of something very related to WHG from west Asia and "basal Eurasians". What is identified as "basal Eurasian" ancestry may be ancestry from a Eurasian people who split from east-west Eurasian's ancestors before east and west Eurasians split, a mix of a west Eurasian alleles and alleles from an unknown African population that had a complicated relationship with non-Africans, or something even more complicated.

Basal Europeans are Neanderthals, there is little to no mixture in Europe, everything seems complicated to you because you subscribe to bullshit.




In a very basic sense European's are a mix in varying proportions of two major stone age populations, north Eurasian hunter gatherers(ANE and WHG) and near easterns(mostly the ones who brought farming to Europe), who first meet up with each other during the Neolithic, which was the most important age in the history of humans in Europe.

You are wrong.

[Artek]

You are wrong.

Sorry, but I have to say that. I can't stand any more of the bullsh*t you keep posting, being absolutely contradictory to anything that makes sense because of your own agenda.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4053/4459353701_826a3c120d.jpg

Feel free to thumb me down.

[I've Her Son]

Then stop reading it you brown-haired faggot; go die in a fire.

[Kale]

Damn, took long enough to ban him. It's ok though, he'll be back, again.

Btw mah head iz lyk alien yo.

http://www.mwctoys.com/images/review_18alien_3.jpg

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Melon head what your saying is totally wrong. Y DNA is just a direct male line. Almost 100% of R1b in west Europe is under deep subclade R1b1a2a1a L11 which is estimated to be just 5,000-6,000 years old. 31 y DNA samples from Neolithic west Europe not one had R1b. R1b1a2a1a L11 probably originated in central Europe and its main subclades P312 and U106 spread mainly in the last 4,000 years. It is definitely also the spread of Germanic and Italo Celtic tribes. 50% of west European men direct male line was in Caucus, Near east, or Anatolia just 8,000 years ago. But that is just direct male line R1b in no way defines Europeans.

Autosomal DNA which takes ancestry from all lines not just direct maternal or paternal. There are Dodecade K7b, K12b, and globe13 results from 5 Europeans from Mesolithic, Neolithic, and copper age. All definitely non R1b and R1a and non Indo European. They show that the genetic makeup in modern Europeans was there and R1a, R1b, and Indo Europeans don't define Europeans at all. What the results show is that North Euro in globe13 and K12b is from pre Neolithic Europe and may descend from people who came tow Europe from the Near east over 30,000 years ago. It also shows that Meditreaen, west Asian, and southwest Asian came to Europe with spread of farming.


mtDNA and autosomal DNA of European hunter gathers seems to say that in pre Neolithic Europe people in Sweden, Spain, Italy, France, Russia, Germany, England all were very united genetically they had the same common ancestry that came to Europe in the Palaeolithic maybe over 30,000ybp.The spread of farming from the near east brought many new mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups and new autosomal ancestry. Since really the Neolithic there have been constant migrations of different people mixing conquering's tons of stuff. All of this created the crazy mix's that are everywhere in Europe today and major differences between different Europeans also in Physical appearance.

You simplify race you cant base everything on physical appearance you have to be base it on DNA. The Oceania have black skin and nappy hair pretty much completely identical to sub sahran Africans but are very unrelated. It is hard to connect Y DNA direct male lines to certain human races. We know through Autosomal DNA that Europeans, north Africans, and middle easterns are in the same family or race. Since Y DNA I is very diverse in Europe and a very old age in Europe probably 30,000 years or so and same for y DNA J I the middle east. It makes sense that their father y DNA IJ did exist over 40,000ybp in Caucasians in the Near east. Probably same for y DNA F and C.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?136784-H-mtdna-comes-from-Iberia

Read and weep, FH, You could not be more wrong.

The retarded fantasy that H spread into europe from the east is now utterly destroyed. Considering basques are 80% r1b and 80% H as well, the idea r1b came along with it is now in the same category with phlogistonite, and good riddance.

I know you think I am somehow biased in wanting r1b to come out of iberia (lol) but it's more that this is the only thing that made any sense. Maybe it originates in north africa or something but at any rate it's been there a long time and the basques have been right where they are a long time as well.

This theory has always been wholly internet psuedoscience with no paper to back it up so really this should be no shock.

[johen]

Yes, once time the CM was a swarthy type too (R time), but the Cromagnoids (and the Lapponoids) are indigenous and pale skinned at this time in the Mesolithic Europe and the Cromagnoids were in Eastern Europe and maybe Western Siberia originally and they moved to East (Altay, Mongolia) slowly. They are attached to the R1a type presumably. The swarthy neolithic newcomers (R1b) are the Mediterranids, the proto-Nordics, the Dinarids and Taurid forms, etc. Later a part of theirs are depigmented too, like the Cromagnoids and Lapponoids earlier

1. which part is related with yamna R1b?
2. So it was impossible for yamna R1b to migrate to the Afanasievo of Paleoeuropoid R1b. right?


The Central Asian Proto-Europids and Europo-Mongoloids:

"38 men’s and 16 women’s skulls obtained from the burials of Maslyakha 1 and 2 (Krutikha district, Altaj kraj) burial grounds have been investigated. The latter have been referred to the Kamenka archaeological culture and dated to the 3rd–1st centuries В.С. Аnalysis of the craniological materials showed that in the said chronological period the territory of North Altaj was inhabited by the Eurasian population in which a Mongoloid admixture could be traced. The Eurasian stratum is related to the proto-European type to be present in the Andronovo population of the Bronze Age. The Моngoloid admixture is heterogenous: one of its parts is of the Central Asian origin while the other is of the forest West Siberian origin. Following ethnogenetic relations, one can trace relationship of the Kamenka culture population with the Sakas as well as with bearers of the Sargatka culture and Savromatae-Sarmatian groups."
Ryikun M. P.: Materials on Craniology of the North Altay population in the Early Iron Age (Kamenka culture) - Bulletin of Archeology, Anthropology and Ethnography, 1999 Vol 2

"In the late 3rd to early 2nd millennium B.C. the Afanasievo Culture emerged in northern Mongolia. The Afanasievo Culture had a cattle breeding economy mainly known from the kurgan cemeteries in the Minusinsk Basin and in the Gorny Altai region. Sites in both areas have been studied extensively. In Mongolia, Afanasievo cemeteries have been discovered on both the western and eastern slopes of the Hangai Mountains in the vicinity of Altan Sandal (Gold Chair) and Shatar Chuluu (Stone Chest).

The Afanasievo cultural ties were primarily with the west. Censer bowls found in Afanasievo burials are completely analogous with those from the southern Russian Catacomb burials. According to physical anthropologists the Afanasievo population was Paleo-European, descending from the Cro-Magnon people of Paleolithic Europe. It appears that the carriers of the Mongolian Afanasievo Culture were the easternmost Europoid tribes which populated Inner Asia at the dawn of the Bronze Age.

As mentioned previously, the Afanasievo-type populations found in the Altan Sandal and Shatar Chuluu burials at Khangai have Europoid skulls. The people belonged to one of the most eastern and most ancient groups of Europoid tribes to inhabit Inner Asia. They also contrast sharply with the Paleo-Asiatic groups found in the Late Neolithic or Eneolithic complexes of eastern Mongolia. 9 This leads to the conclusion that cultural and anthropological differences between two groups, one in eastern and the other in western Mongolia, appear to have developed at the onset of the Bronze Age."

"The physical appearance of the Saka in eastern Kazakhstan is essentially the same as that of the previous Bronze Age population (Ismagulov, 1965). However, some skulls of the Saka Period display Mongoloid admixture, particularly prominent among the female skulls. This has led the anthropologists to conclude that Europoid and Mongoloid admixture had occurred only recently (Ginzburg and Trofimova, 1972, pp. 119,125,129,132)."

"The distinct Mongoloid admixture found in the early Saka population in the lower Syr Darya River area seems to be strong evidence of eastern genetic ties. Moreover, archaeological evidence also confirms cultural contacts with the eastern
regions. The lower Syr Darya Saka populations shared common cultural and genetic components with the steppe populations of Central Asia, Kazakhstan, and the Southern Siberian steppes dating from the Bronze Age which accounts for the strong contacts during the Early Iron Age."

"People of similar physical appearance as those from the Tumek-Kichijik Cemetery formed the basis of the Bronze Age population who occupied the lower Volga River and southern Ural steppe areas. The second craniological variation is characteristic of the cemeteries of the Sakar-Chaga highland. These skulls are mesobrachiocephalic with moderately broad and relatively high faces. Some skulls are marked by flatness of their facial bones, exhibiting typical Mongoloid racial features. Skeletal material found in the contemporaneous Uigarak Cemetery is of a similar type. It is noteworthy that skeletal remains from the population groups dating to the Late Bronze Age and occupying areas of Southern Siberia and the Altai Mountains carried similar physical traits."

"In physical appearance the Saka population of the Tien Shan and the Altai Mountains were not homogeneous (data summary: Ginzburg and Trofimova, 1972). In general, the Saka of the Tien Shan Mountains belong to the brachycephalic Europoids with a slight Mongoloid admixture found primarily among the females. The Saka of the western Altai Mountain range, northeast of the Pamir Mountains and south of the Tien Shan Mountains, had narrower crania and relatively small facial bones. They were more representative of the Europoid race with only a small Mongoloid admixture. The anthropological base of the Tien Shan Saka populations appears to have descended from Bronze Age steppe tribes originally from Kazakhstan and Southern Siberia, while, in contrast, the cranial variation of the Altai population is similar to that which is characteristic of contemporary Semirechiye tribes. In the eastern Pamir Mountains, the homogeneous Saka population were dolichocephalic Europoids with narrow and very high faces. Little doubt remains about the origin of the Pamir Saka. According to V. Ginzburg, they were carriers of the Mediterranean complex of cranial traits. The distinct physical differences between these tribes, and their contemporary neighbors occupying the Semirechiye and regions to the north, testify to the biological, but not cultural, isolation of the Pamir Saka."
Jeannine Davis-Kimball (Editor), Vladimir A. Bashilov (Editor), Leonid T. Yablonsky: Nomads of the Eurasian Steppes in the Early Iron Age - Berkley, 1995


7. In 3-2 milleniums B.C. in steppe zone of Eurasia from Dnieper to Altaye-Sayan region the similar in appearence to Paleoeuropoid type was widespread.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?133373-Paleoeuropoid-type