Jewish mtdna not middle eastern

[dhunter93]

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html


Wow not even K or N1b2 is middle eastern !

Behar's information is outdated at this point, and he set out to prove a connection between Jews and the middle east which does not exist.

N1b is Eurasian (Turkic) N1b1 ( 16176G ) gets further west into Europe and is the non Jewish version .

N1b2 ( 16176A ) is Jewish but none of the N1b verities are middle eastern.


N1b1 ( 16176G ) is found from the Caucuses to the British Isles with low distribution almost everywhere. Best evidence now says it's Eurasian in origin.

N1b2 ( 16176A ) is Jewish and is now believed to have mutated in Italy.

Regarding Behar ; You have to be careful relying on outdated information from a source trying to prove a Jewish middle eastern origin.
[/B]

[Sikeliot]

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html


Wow not even K or N1b2 is middle eastern !

N1b is Middle Eastern, I am pretty sure.

[MarkyMark]

N1b is Middle Eastern, I am pretty sure.

Seems Turkic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Did you expect it to be, when jews don't come from middle east?

[curupira]

Behar did not agree with that study.

From a previous study (Behar et al, 2006), also focusing on this subject, Ashkenazi mtDNA (more reliable take, IMO):


We have identified four Ashkenazi founding lineages, three within Hg K and one in Hg N1b, deriving from only four ancestral women and accounting for fully 40% of the mtDNAs of the current Ashkenazi population (~8,000,000 people). The most dominant of these lineages, K1a1b1a, encompasses 62% of the Ashkenazi K mtDNAs, which translates into 19.4% of contemporary Ashkenazi Jews, or ~1,700,000 people. The second most common lineage is within Hg N1b and corresponds to an additional 800,000 people.

The observed global pattern of distribution renders very unlikely the possibility that the four aforementioned founder lineages entered the Ashkenazi mtDNA pool via gene flow from a European host population.

For example, in databases of HVS-I sequences of British, Irish, German, French, or Italian subjects, these Ashkenazi sample founder lineage sequences were not observed (Baasner et al. 1998; Lutz et al. 1998;
Pfeiffer et al. 2001).

Furthermore, the non-Ashkenazi Jewish populations sharing the Ashkenazi mtDNA Hg K lineages turn out to be from Jewish communities that trace their origins to the expulsion from Spain in 1492.

Either a shared ancestral origin of the two groups or, alternatively, a postexile admixture between neighboring Ashkenazi and Spanish-exile Jewish populations may explain the sharing of these maternal lineages. However, the very presence of the Ashkenazi founding lineages, albeit at low frequencies, in North African, Near Eastern, and Caucasian Jews, supports a common Levantine ancestry.

In conclusion, the present study highlights the importance of a combined phylogenetic/phylogeographic strategy that includes complete mtDNA sequence analysis to accurately portray maternal founding events and to infer conclusions relevant to both shared ancestries and population-level effects that shaped the mtDNA gene pool in a given population. In the Ashkenazi Jews, this approach enabled us to reconstruct a detailed phylogenetic tree for the major Ashkenazi Hgs K and N1b, allowing the detection of a small set of only four individual female ancestors, likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool, whose descendants lived in Europe and carried forward their particular mtDNA variants to 3,500,000 individuals in a time frame of 2 millennia.
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_doron.pdf

It is intriguing how so few maternal lineages account for so much of the maternal lines of the Ashkenazi population... likely they all descend from a few Levantine women who made their way to Europe over a thousand years ago.

This is what 23andme says on a few of these lines:

K1a1b1a, K2a2a, K1a9, etc:


K split off the more ancient haplogroup U8 about 35,000 years ago. Since then, haplogroup K has been involved in migrations from the Near East into Europe, most notably the founding and expansion of Ashkenazi Jewish populations.

One branch of haplogroup K ties about 1.7 million Ashkenazi Jews living today to a single maternal ancestor.


K in the Ashkenazi

A few branches of haplogroup K, such as K1a9, K2a2a, and K1a1b1a, are specific to Jewish populations and especially to Ashkenazi Jews, whose roots lie in central and eastern Europe. These branches of haplogroup K are found at levels of 30% among Ashkenazi. But they are also found at lower levels in Jewish populations from the Near East and Africa, and among Sephardic Jews who trace their roots to medieval Spain. That indicates an origin of those K haplogroup branches in the Near East before 70 AD, when the Roman destruction of Jerusalem scattered the Jewish people around the Mediterranean and beyond.

About 1.7 million Ashkenazi living today – about 20% of the population – share a single branch of the K haplogroup, K1a1b1a. The diversity of that haplogroup among Ashkenazi suggests that it arose in the Near East between 2,000 and 3,000 years ago, and that everyone who shares it today could have shared a common ancestor as recently as 700 years ago. A similar pattern in two other K branches that are common among the Ashkenazi, K1a9 and K2a2, as well as the N1b branch of haplogroup N, has led researchers to conclude that 40% of the Ashkenazi living today – about 3.4 million people – could descend from as few as four women who lived within the last 2,000 years.

Historical information supports that conclusion. The Ashkenazi tradition traces back to a small number of people who migrated from northern Italy to the Rhine Valley of Germany around 700 AD, then grew over the next 1,300 years to a population of more than 5 million.

N1b2:


Haplogroup: N1b, a subgroup of N

Example Populations: Mazandarani, Bedouin, Ashkenazi

Highlight: It is likely that every Ashkenazi Jew with mitochondrial DNA from N1b may have inherited it from a single woman who lived less than 2,000 years ago.


Haplogroup N1b2

Jewish populations dispersed from the Near East about 2,000 years ago, after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans. Some of them ended up in Rome, and a few of their descendants eventually made their way northward to settle in the Rhine Valley around 800 AD. Over the next millennium that small group of founders, known as the Ashkenazi, grew to a population of 6 million.

Research has shown that Ashkenazi living today trace back to just a handful of mitochondrial DNA lines. Their mitochondrial genetics is so restricted, in fact, that 40% of the Ashkenazi living today can be traced back to as few as four individual women.

One of those women belonged to the N1b2 haplogroup, which is found today in the mitochondrial DNA of about 10% of Ashkenazi. Though it is also found in other Jewish groups, the vast majority of the people who carry it today trace their lineage back to one, or at most a few, women who lived between 500 and 2,500 years ago, and most likely during the first millennium AD.

MtDNA haplogroup K is fairly common in the Levant:


Approximately 16% of the Druze of Syria, Lebanon, Israel, and Jordan, belong to haplogroup K. It was also found in a significant group of Palestinian Arabs. K reaches a level of 17% in Kurdistan.

Approximately 32% of people with Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry are in haplogroup K. This high percentage points to a genetic bottleneck occurring some 100 generations ago. Ashkenazi mtDNA K clusters into three subclades seldom found in non-Jews: K1a1b1a, K1a9, and K2a2a. Thus it is possible to detect three individual female ancestors, likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool, whose descendants lived in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(mtDNA)

[Smeagol]

Ashkenazis are autosomally about 50% European, 50% Near Eastern.

[curupira]

Genetically, they're closer to other Jews such as Sephardic Jews and Moroccan Jews than they are to the host populations in which they have lived for so long (Germans and Eastern Europeans), and pulling towards the Levant.

Besides they carry lineages which are highly specific of Jews, be it maternal, or paternal, like the Cohen haplotype, f.e:

http://i40.tinypic.com/65zmew.jpg

An autosomal map from the Behar study:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2chkdfs.jpg
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/fig_tab/nature09103_F2.html

An autosomal map from the eurogenes project:

http://i42.tinypic.com/1pcex2.png

It is amazing IMO that for Ashkenazi Jews Germans (and Eastern Europeans) do not appear even among the first 40 closest to them, for Sephardic Jews Iberians do not appear among the first 40 closest either, nor do Moroccans do to Moroccan Jews!

Dodecad k12b results of the Ashkenazi Jews:


DodecadOracle(c(2.8, 0.6, 4.2, 0, 25.1, 13.2, 1.3, 0.4, 12.8, 0.5, 39, 0),k=85)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Ashkenazy_Jews" "0"
[2,] "Ashkenazi_D" "1.8248"
[3,] "Sicilian_D" "6.1514"
[4,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "6.5383"
[5,] "Sephardic_Jews" "8.8578"
[6,] "Greek_D" "9.078"
[7,] "Morocco_Jews" "12.8031"
[8,] "C_Italian_D" "13.5477"
[9,] "Cypriots" "15.5827"
[10,] "O_Italian_D" "17.4333"
[11,] "Tuscan" "17.9025"
[12,] "Turkish_D" "18.9296"
[13,] "TSI30" "19.4728"
[14,] "Lebanese" "21.4156"
[15,] "Turks" "21.9066"
[16,] "Druze" "23.805"
[17,] "Bulgarian_D" "24.5668"
[18,] "Bulgarians_Y" "24.665"
[19,] "Syrians" "24.735"
[20,] "Jordanians" "25.6731"
[21,] "Romanians" "26.421"
[22,] "N_Italian_D" "26.5522"
[23,] "Palestinian" "26.908"
[24,] "North_Italian" "27.5764"
[25,] "Uzbekistan_Jews" "27.7743"
[26,] "Armenian_D" "28.6855"
[27,] "Georgia_Jews" "28.7531"
[28,] "Samaritans" "29.2602"
[29,] "Iraq_Jews" "29.3379"
[30,] "Assyrian_D" "29.3784"
[31,] "Azerbaijan_Jews" "29.5745"
[32,] "Armenians_15_Y" "29.8612"
[33,] "Armenians" "30.6504"
[34,] "Iranian_Jews" "31.1989"
[35,] "Kumyks_Y" "31.5393"
[36,] "Egyptans" "31.691"
[37,] "Nogais_Y" "31.8152"
[38,] "Kurds_Y" "32.7379"
[39,] "Kurd_D" "33.3354"
[40,] "Iranian_D" "33.6982"
[41,] "Iranians" "35.5892"
[42,] "Adygei" "35.933"
[43,] "Balkars_Y" "36.1872"
[44,] "Turkmens_Y" "36.4286"
[45,] "North_Ossetians_Y" "37.0169"
[46,] "Baleares_1KG" "37.042"
[47,] "Canarias_1KG" "37.5781"
[48,] "Chechens_Y" "37.7647"
[49,] "Yemenese" "38.3286"
[50,] "Galicia_1KG" "38.5051"
[51,] "Bedouin" "38.5096"
[52,] "Extremadura_1KG" "38.8348"
[53,] "Murcia_1KG" "39.0442"
[54,] "Portuguese_D" "39.0863"
[55,] "Lezgins" "39.5084"
[56,] "Andalucia_1KG" "39.7006"
[57,] "Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG" "41.1618"
[58,] "Spaniards" "42.0943"
[59,] "Spanish_D" "42.9535"
[60,] "Cataluna_1KG" "43.2757"
[61,] "Hungarians" "43.3482"
[62,] "Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG" "43.7549"
[63,] "Algerian_D" "44.0118"
[64,] "Valencia_1KG" "44.4297"
[65,] "Abhkasians_Y" "44.5719"
[66,] "Cantabria_1KG" "44.7376"
[67,] "French" "44.7471"
[68,] "French_D" "45.029"
[69,] "Aragon_1KG" "45.3586"
[70,] "Tajiks_Y" "45.9169"
[71,] "Uzbeks" "46.8559"
[72,] "Georgians" "47.4162"
[73,] "German_D" "47.9959"
[74,] "Yemen_Jews" "48.444"
[75,] "Mixed_Germanic_D" "49.3436"
[76,] "Sardinian" "51.231"
[77,] "Dutch_D" "51.3298"
[78,] "Kent_1KG" "52.1156"
[79,] "Bnei_Menashe_Jews" "52.3587"
[80,] "CEU30" "52.6992"
[81,] "English_D" "52.7228"
[82,] "Uygur" "53.2533"
[83,] "Cornwall_1KG" "53.4111"
[84,] "Moroccan_D" "53.5623"
[85,] "British_D" "54.1536"
[86,] "British_Isles_D" "54.2386"
[87,] "Hazara" "54.6536"
[88,] "Argyll_1KG" "55.2765"
[89,] "Moroccans" "55.4705"
[90,] "Irish_D" "55.6737"
[91,] "Ukranians_Y" "55.6758"
[92,] "Orcadian" "56.0235"
[93,] "Orkney_1KG" "56.2767"
[94,] "Chuvashs" "57.3128"
[95,] "Polish_D" "58.183"
[96,] "Mixed_Slav_D" "59.0689"
[97,] "Norwegian_D" "59.7258"
[98,] "Swedish_D" "59.8196"
[99,] "Pais_Vasco_1KG" "59.84"
[100,] "Pathan" "60.3621"
[101,] "Mordovians_Y" "60.596"
[102,] "Russian_B" "61.4236"
[103,] "Russian_D" "62.0663"
[104,] "Belorussian" "62.1939"
[105,] "Russian" "62.9443""

[dhunter93]

Behar's information is outdated at this point, and he set out to prove a connection between Jews and the middle east.

N1b is Eurasian (Turkic) N1b1 ( 16176G ) gets further west into Europe and is the non Jewish version .

N1b2 ( 16176A ) is Jewish but none of the N1b verities are middle eastern.

[curupira]

N1b1 ( 16176G ) gets further west into Europe and is the non Jewish version . .

On 23andme, I share with 2 Arabians whose mtDNA is N1b1. These are example mtDNA N1b populations listed by 23andme:


Haplogroup: N1b, a subgroup of N

Example Populations: Mazandarani, Bedouin, Ashkenazi

[d3cimat3d]

This proves Jooz had the hots for European wimminz, and assimilated them if they served out that vag.


Ashkenazis are autosomally about 50% European, 50% Near Eastern.

True but that 50% is mostly only southern European (south Italian, Sicilian), which is already pretty much indistinguishable from Near Eastern. However Ashkenazis have 15% North European component probably when they left Italy and screwed some German chicks in the Rhine, at least that's how I interpret this mtDNA study.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2uqysk5.jpg

[curupira]

at least that's how I interpret this mtDNA study.

Did you read my posts on this thread? There are other studies in the opposite direction. The leading researcher on this, Behar, disagreed with the conclusions of that study.


Doron M. Behar, of the Gene by Gene company in Houston and a co-author of the 2006 survey, said he disagreed with Dr. Richards’ conclusions but declined to explain his reasons, saying they had to appear first in a scientific journal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/science/ashkenazi-origins-may-be-with-european-women-study-finds.html?_r=0

[Smeagol]

This proves Jooz had the hots for European wimminz, and assimilated them if they served out that vag.



True but that 50% is mostly only southern European (south Italian, Sicilian), which is already pretty much indistinguishable from Near Eastern. However Ashkenazis have 15% North European component probably when they left Italy and screwed some German chicks in the Rhine, at least that's how I interpret this mtDNA study.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2uqysk5.jpg

Makes sense.

[dhunter93]

On 23andme, I share with 2 Arabians whose mtDNA is N1b1. These are example mtDNA N1b populations listed by 23andme:


Are you N1b1? whats the sequence ? 16176G?

Also read this, Autosomal tests from 23 and me are not very reliable http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/2012/04/02/a-review-of-ancestrydna-ancestry-coms-new-autosomal-dna-test/

[curupira]

^ I am not. 2 Arabians I share with are mtDNA N1b1. You can look at mitosearch as well. N1b results for the Near East:


Lebanon N1b Other - genebase
Syrian Arab Republic N1b Family Tree DNA
Lebanon N1b Genographic Project
Israel N1b Family Tree DNA
Lebanon N1b Genographic Project
Iran N1b Genographic Project
Lebanon N1b Genographic Project

http://www.mitosearch.org/haplosearch_results.asp?uid=&haplo=N1b&region=NA&submit=Search

[d3cimat3d]

Did you read my posts on this thread?

I will now, but before I do I will tell you my opinion. Ashkenazi Jews.... now why don't they cluster with modern Levantines given that modern Levantines are largely un-tained aside from some minor Arabian genes that came with Islam? Why are Ashkenazi Jews showing similarity to Assyrians and Iraqi Mandaens as opposed to Druze and such? The first mixing happened when the ancient Hebrews were in exile in Mesopotamia and mixed with Assyrian like people.... Ashkenazis cluster smack dab in the middle of the Mediterranean, for them to be that far west suggests they aren't the same as the ancient Hebrews but a hybrid population with south Italians. It would make sense given that they became involved in business and finances in late Roman era Italy - this window of time is likely when they assimilated Italian men, then migrated to early Medieval Germany and procreated with German women. I'd like to here Behar give a good reason why Ashkenazi Jews show so much west-Mediteranean ancestry.

[Sikeliot]

Ashkenazis do not show west Mediterranean ancestry. They are basically a mixture of Mesopotamian, Levantine, and southern Italian. They have little to no Atlantic or Iberian ancestry.

[curupira]

but a hybrid population with south Italians. It would make sense given that they became involved in business and finances in late Roman era Italy - this window of time is likely when they assimilated Italian men, then migrated to early Medieval Germany and procreated with German women. I'd like to here Behar give a good reason why Ashkenazi Jews show so much west-Mediteranean ancestry.

They could have some minor Italian ancestry, but their similarity to Southern Italians is not because one absorbed the other, but rather because they carry similar ancestral components (a large Levatine/Near Eastern one and also some Northern Euro input). FaerieQueenie, the half Anglo/half Palestinian poster, appears near Italians on genetic maps (and also on Dodecad), but she has a different history than Italians. The same goes with Jews, though Jews are less Northern Euro influenced than she is, since they appear quite further Southwards of her.

[Smeagol]

Ashkenazis do not show west Mediterranean ancestry. They are basically a mixture of Mesopotamian, Levantine, and southern Italian. They have little to no Atlantic or Iberian ancestry.

If they are 15% North European, then they must be part German too.

[dhunter93]

^ I am not. 2 Arabians I share with are mtDNA N1b1. You can look at mitosearch as well. N1b results for the Near East:



http://www.mitosearch.org/haplosearch_results.asp?uid=&haplo=N1b®ion=NA&submit=Search


N1b1 ( 16176G ) is found from the Caucuses to the British Isles with low distribution almost everywhere. Best evidence now says it's Eurasian in origin.

N1b2 ( 16176A ) is Jewish and is now believed to have mutated in Italy.

You have to be careful relying on outdated information from a source trying to prove a Jewish middle eastern origin.

[d3cimat3d]

They could have some minor Italian ancestry, but their similarity to Southern Italians is not because one absorbed the other, but rather because they carry similar ancestral components (a large Levatine/Near Eastern one and also some Northern Euro input). FaerieQueenie, the half Anglo/half Palestinian poster, appears near Italians on genetic maps (and also on Dodecad), but she has a different history than Italians. The same goes with Jews, though Jews are less Northern Euro influenced than she is, since they appear quite further Southwards of her.

I suppose you have a valid point, given that Ashkenazis have the same amount of North European as Sicilians (15% give or take) along with their Levantine base it's a similar recipe so to speak. But still, I'm wondering if there is any y-dna haplogroup that links Ashkenazis to south Italians. I'll google that later when I have more time.

[Sikeliot]

They could have some minor Italian ancestry, but their similarity to Southern Italians is not because one absorbed the other, but rather because they carry similar ancestral components (a large Levatine/Near Eastern one and also some Northern Euro input). FaerieQueenie, the half Anglo/half Palestinian poster, appears near Italians on genetic maps (and also on Dodecad), but she has a different history than Italians. The same goes with Jews, though Jews are less Northern Euro influenced than she is, since they appear quite further Southwards of her.

Some have come up with the idea that Cypriots are close to the original Levantines (Phoenicians, Hebrews). If you look at this map you posted.. southern Italians are not all that far from the Cypriots.. therefore if the original Jews were like Cypriots, it would not take much European admixture to put them near a modern southern Italian.

http://i42.tinypic.com/1pcex2.png

[Sikeliot]

If you look here you see the blue X's (Southern Italians and Sicilians) ALMOST make it into the Cypriot cluster, with Ashkenazis right alongside them. Therefore, if Cypriots are the original Levantines, a Phoenician or Hebrew would not cluster very differently from either an Ashkenazi or a Sicilian.

Which also has implications for people in western Sicily, who look much like Ashkenazis and have Norman admixture -- most of their ancestry could, theoretically, be Phoenician.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/01/MDS1600.png

[dhunter93]

]Back to mtdna

N1b1 ( 16176G ) is found from the Caucuses to the British Isles with low distribution almost everywhere. Best evidence now says it's Eurasian in origin.

N1b2 ( 16176A ) is Jewish and is now believed to have mutated in Italy.

Regarding Behar ; You have to be careful relying on outdated information from a source trying to prove a Jewish middle eastern origin.[/SIZE]

[Sikeliot]

I have some Sicilians who are N1b on 23andme, mostly from the west of the island.

[Stormer99]

Cypriots are part European genetically. They are the original Levantines plus 35% South Euro input.

[Sikeliot]

Cypriots are part European genetically. They are the original Levantines plus 35% South Euro input.

I don't think so. Levantines themselves have the Mediterranean/South European component to a degree too. It likely always existed there. I think Cypriots are ancient Levantines frozen in time, and Ashkenazis, southern Italians, and Greek islanders are their derivatives with admixture from further north and west.

[Stormer99]

I don't think so. Levantines themselves have the Mediterranean/South European component to a degree too. It likely always existed there. I think Cypriots are ancient Levantines frozen in time, and Ashkenazis, southern Italians, and Greek islanders are their derivatives with admixture from further north and west.

The Southern Euro component in Levantines is around 10% or so. In this case it would be fair to say Cypriots are with added 25% Euro. However, this is all speculation.

[Sikeliot]

The Southern Euro component in Levantines is around 10% or so. In this case it would be fair to say Cypriots are with added 25% Euro. However, this is all speculation.

Before acquiring more Arabian admixture and African, the South Euro component would have made up a larger proportion of Levantine genes.

[Stormer99]

Before acquiring more Arabian admixture and African, the South Euro component would have made up a larger proportion of Levantine genes.

No it would not have. It would be more like 90% Indigenous Middle East and 10% Southern Euro.

[d3cimat3d]

Ok Curupira. How do you explain Ashkenazi Jews have a Atlanto-Med score that is unlike their Levantine counter-parts?
Here is dodecad k12b results with relevant populations for comparison:

http://i39.tinypic.com/90y90n.png

[alfieb]

Cypriots being 100% Levantines preserved through the millennia is a very romanticized notion, and one that I can't put much faith in.

Regardless of whether it's 1/8, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, whatever. Cypriots certainly have Balkan and Anatolian ancestry.

[StonyArabia]

The title is misleading because Mizrahi mtDNA are clearly Middle Eastern, with the Temani having Arabian mtDNA which is still Middle Eastern.

[Sikeliot]

Regardless of whether it's 1/8, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, whatever. Cypriots certainly have Balkan and Anatolian ancestry.


Not sure about Anatolian, but Balkan not much if any.

[Stormer99]

The Druze are the best examples of pure Levantines IMO.

[alfieb]

I would tend to agree. Palestinian Christians are also relatively unmixed compared to other groups in the area.

[dhunter93]

Why are so many of you fixated on information from 2004-2006? Information coming from a source that was trying to prove a middle eastern origin for Jewish woman.

If you want the truth look at the Y dna in Jewish men , there is no question that it is not only middle eastern in origin but also almost 100% Jewish.

[StonyArabia]

Why are so many of you fixated on information from 2004-2006? Information coming from a source that was trying to prove a middle eastern origin for Jewish woman.

If you want the truth look at the Y dna in Jewish men , there is no question that it is not only middle eastern in origin but also almost 100% Jewish.

It's well known that Semitic Israelite males took European women who converted to Judaism especially of Greco-Roman origins. Well this depends on what type of Jews. Some Jews are still purely Middle Eastern like the Mizrahi and Temani.

[dhunter93]

This post is regarding Ashkenazi Jewish woman not being middle eastern , of course Sephardic Jews are middle eastern/north African !

[curupira]

Ok Curupira. How do you explain Ashkenazi Jews have a Atlanto-Med score that is unlike their Levantine counter-parts?

Sephardic and Moroccan Jews have it too (why did you not mention it?), and overall the autosomal maps show clearly where their primary affiliations lie.

Dodecad Oracle k12b

Ashkenazi Jews: Atlanto med 25.1. North european 13.1
Sephardic Jews: Atlanto med 26.1. North european 6.1
Moroccan Jews: Atlanto med 27.3 North european 4.3
Cypriots: Atlanto med 20.5 North european 4.5

I've shared with many Ashkenazi Jews on 23andme. Even when by looks you'd expect something else, they usually tend to fall near/in the Middle East in a genetic map, most of the cases. Really incredible. I think they really stuck to themselves, out of mainly religious considerations, they did not want to assimilate or go extinct.

These are the positions they (Ashkenazi) stand on 23andme maps (these 2 are full blown German Jews whose ancestors have been living Germany as long as they know it), they appear always either near the Druze or on the further end of Southern Europe, a position where I have seen Assyrians, Iraqi Jews and Turks to appear as well:

http://i39.tinypic.com/97lmw4.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2rxi59f.jpg

It is amazing IMO that for Ashkenazi Jews Germans (and Eastern Europeans) do not appear even among the first 40 closest to them, for Sephardic Jews Iberians do not appear among the first 40 closest either, nor do Moroccans do to Moroccan Jews!

Dodecad k12b results of the Ashkenazi Jews:



DodecadOracle(c(2.8, 0.6, 4.2, 0, 25.1, 13.2, 1.3, 0.4, 12.8, 0.5, 39, 0),k=85)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Ashkenazy_Jews" "0"
[2,] "Ashkenazi_D" "1.8248"
[3,] "Sicilian_D" "6.1514"
[4,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "6.5383"
[5,] "Sephardic_Jews" "8.8578"
[6,] "Greek_D" "9.078"
[7,] "Morocco_Jews" "12.8031"
[8,] "C_Italian_D" "13.5477"
[9,] "Cypriots" "15.5827"
[10,] "O_Italian_D" "17.4333"
[11,] "Tuscan" "17.9025"
[12,] "Turkish_D" "18.9296"
[13,] "TSI30" "19.4728"
[14,] "Lebanese" "21.4156"
[15,] "Turks" "21.9066"
[16,] "Druze" "23.805"
[17,] "Bulgarian_D" "24.5668"
[18,] "Bulgarians_Y" "24.665"
[19,] "Syrians" "24.735"
[20,] "Jordanians" "25.6731"
[21,] "Romanians" "26.421"
[22,] "N_Italian_D" "26.5522"
[23,] "Palestinian" "26.908"
[24,] "North_Italian" "27.5764"
[25,] "Uzbekistan_Jews" "27.7743"
[26,] "Armenian_D" "28.6855"
[27,] "Georgia_Jews" "28.7531"
[28,] "Samaritans" "29.2602"
[29,] "Iraq_Jews" "29.3379"
[30,] "Assyrian_D" "29.3784"
[31,] "Azerbaijan_Jews" "29.5745"
[32,] "Armenians_15_Y" "29.8612"
[33,] "Armenians" "30.6504"
[34,] "Iranian_Jews" "31.1989"
[35,] "Kumyks_Y" "31.5393"
[36,] "Egyptans" "31.691"
[37,] "Nogais_Y" "31.8152"
[38,] "Kurds_Y" "32.7379"
[39,] "Kurd_D" "33.3354"
[40,] "Iranian_D" "33.6982"
[41,] "Iranians" "35.5892"
[42,] "Adygei" "35.933"
[43,] "Balkars_Y" "36.1872"
[44,] "Turkmens_Y" "36.4286"
[45,] "North_Ossetians_Y" "37.0169"
[46,] "Baleares_1KG" "37.042"
[47,] "Canarias_1KG" "37.5781"
[48,] "Chechens_Y" "37.7647"
[49,] "Yemenese" "38.3286"
[50,] "Galicia_1KG" "38.5051"
[51,] "Bedouin" "38.5096"
[52,] "Extremadura_1KG" "38.8348"
[53,] "Murcia_1KG" "39.0442"
[54,] "Portuguese_D" "39.0863"
[55,] "Lezgins" "39.5084"
[56,] "Andalucia_1KG" "39.7006"
[57,] "Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG" "41.1618"
[58,] "Spaniards" "42.0943"
[59,] "Spanish_D" "42.9535"
[60,] "Cataluna_1KG" "43.2757"
[61,] "Hungarians" "43.3482"
[62,] "Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG" "43.7549"
[63,] "Algerian_D" "44.0118"
[64,] "Valencia_1KG" "44.4297"
[65,] "Abhkasians_Y" "44.5719"
[66,] "Cantabria_1KG" "44.7376"
[67,] "French" "44.7471"
[68,] "French_D" "45.029"
[69,] "Aragon_1KG" "45.3586"
[70,] "Tajiks_Y" "45.9169"
[71,] "Uzbeks" "46.8559"
[72,] "Georgians" "47.4162"
[73,] "German_D" "47.9959"
[74,] "Yemen_Jews" "48.444"
[75,] "Mixed_Germanic_D" "49.3436"
[76,] "Sardinian" "51.231"
[77,] "Dutch_D" "51.3298"
[78,] "Kent_1KG" "52.1156"
[79,] "Bnei_Menashe_Jews" "52.3587"
[80,] "CEU30" "52.6992"
[81,] "English_D" "52.7228"
[82,] "Uygur" "53.2533"
[83,] "Cornwall_1KG" "53.4111"
[84,] "Moroccan_D" "53.5623"
[85,] "British_D" "54.1536"
[86,] "British_Isles_D" "54.2386"
[87,] "Hazara" "54.6536"
[88,] "Argyll_1KG" "55.2765"
[89,] "Moroccans" "55.4705"
[90,] "Irish_D" "55.6737"
[91,] "Ukranians_Y" "55.6758"
[92,] "Orcadian" "56.0235"
[93,] "Orkney_1KG" "56.2767"
[94,] "Chuvashs" "57.3128"
[95,] "Polish_D" "58.183"
[96,] "Mixed_Slav_D" "59.0689"
[97,] "Norwegian_D" "59.7258"
[98,] "Swedish_D" "59.8196"
[99,] "Pais_Vasco_1KG" "59.84"
[100,] "Pathan" "60.3621"
[101,] "Mordovians_Y" "60.596"
[102,] "Russian_B" "61.4236"
[103,] "Russian_D" "62.0663"
[104,] "Belorussian" "62.1939"
[105,] "Russian" "62.9443""

An autosomal map from the Behar study:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2chkdfs.jpg
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/fig_tab/nature09103_F2.html

An autosomal map from the eurogenes project:

http://i42.tinypic.com/1pcex2.png

[curupira]

Doron Behar has said he does not agree with the conclusions of that study, he has already published a study which goes against it. One of the main reasons is that other Jewish communities, Jews from the Near East, also carry those mtDNA haplogroups, although at different frequencies (something which could be explained easily by founder effect).


Why are so many of you fixated on information from 2004-2006? Information coming from a source that was trying to prove a middle eastern origin for Jewish woman.

If you want the truth look at the Y dna in Jewish men , there is no question that it is not only middle eastern in origin but also almost 100% Jewish.

[Prince Carlo]

I suppose you have a valid point, given that Ashkenazis have the same amount of North European as Sicilians (15% give or take) along with their Levantine base it's a similar recipe so to speak. But still, I'm wondering if there is any y-dna haplogroup that links Ashkenazis to south Italians. I'll google that later when I have more time.

There is no similarty between Ashkenazim and Italians regarding y-dna. They don't share any IBD at all either.

Ashkenazim are the result of 1000 years of mixing between Levantine bankers and their North European female slaves. South Italians come from Neolitich-Copper age East med expansion combined with various Indo-European/Germanic admixture.

[curupira]

Southern Italian yDNA haplogroups are mainly E1b and J, just like with Levantines and Ashkenazi Jews.

Ashkenazi Jews are a population which in spite of such a long diaspora have retained a lot of their original ancestry, the majority of it, so much so that they are vastly different from the host populations in which they have lived in the last thousand years (Germans and Eastern Europeans). They have absorbed in varying degrees a minoritary degree of the ancestry of the peoples they have lived in, but that is notably small.

Since people are taking that study on mtDNA as truth, when it is not, it is highly controversial, I'll posta again what the leading expert on this, Doron Behar, has found.

Doron Behar has been studying this for a very long time. He has said he does not agree with the conclusions of that study, he has already published a study which goes against it. One of the main reasons is that other Jewish communities, Jews from the Near East, also carry those mtDNA haplogroups, although at different frequencies (something which could be explained easily by founder effect). Besides, mtDNA K and N1b is present in other communities in the Near East too.


Doron M. Behar, of the Gene by Gene company in Houston and a co-author of the 2006 survey, said he disagreed with Dr. Richards’ conclusions but declined to explain his reasons, saying they had to appear first in a scientific journal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/science/ashkenazi-origins-may-be-with-european-women-study-finds.html?_r=0

From a previous study (Behar et al, 2006), also focusing on this subject, Ashkenazi mtDNA (more reliable take, IMO):


We have identified four Ashkenazi founding lineages, three within Hg K and one in Hg N1b, deriving from only four ancestral women and accounting for fully 40% of the mtDNAs of the current Ashkenazi population (~8,000,000 people). The most dominant of these lineages, K1a1b1a, encompasses 62% of the Ashkenazi K mtDNAs, which translates into 19.4% of contemporary Ashkenazi Jews, or ~1,700,000 people. The second most common lineage is within Hg N1b and corresponds to an additional 800,000 people.

The observed global pattern of distribution renders very unlikely the possibility that the four aforementioned founder lineages entered the Ashkenazi mtDNA pool via gene flow from a European host population.

For example, in databases of HVS-I sequences of British, Irish, German, French, or Italian subjects, these Ashkenazi sample founder lineage sequences were not observed (Baasner et al. 1998; Lutz et al. 1998;
Pfeiffer et al. 2001).

Furthermore, the non-Ashkenazi Jewish populations sharing the Ashkenazi mtDNA Hg K lineages turn out to be from Jewish communities that trace their origins to the expulsion from Spain in 1492.

Either a shared ancestral origin of the two groups or, alternatively, a postexile admixture between neighboring Ashkenazi and Spanish-exile Jewish populations may explain the sharing of these maternal lineages. However, the very presence of the Ashkenazi founding lineages, albeit at low frequencies, in North African, Near Eastern, and Caucasian Jews, supports a common Levantine ancestry.

In conclusion, the present study highlights the importance of a combined phylogenetic/phylogeographic strategy that includes complete mtDNA sequence analysis to accurately portray maternal founding events and to infer conclusions relevant to both shared ancestries and population-level effects that shaped the mtDNA gene pool in a given population. In the Ashkenazi Jews, this approach enabled us to reconstruct a detailed phylogenetic tree for the major Ashkenazi Hgs K and N1b, allowing the detection of a small set of only four individual female ancestors, likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool, whose descendants lived in Europe and carried forward their particular mtDNA variants to 3,500,000 individuals in a time frame of 2 millennia.
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_doron.pdf


There is no similarty between Ashkenazim and Italians regarding y-dna. They don't share any IBD at all either.

Ashkenazim are the result of 1000 years of mixing between Levantine bankers and their North European female slaves. South Italians come from Neolitich-Copper age East med expansion combined with various Indo-European/Germanic admixture.

[Prince Carlo]

Southern Italian yDNA haplogroups are mainly E1b and J, just like with Levantines and Ashkenazi Jews.

South Italians have about 30% R1b on average (peaking to 40% in some parts). Neither Jews or Levantines do that.


Ashkenazi Jews are a population which in spite of such a long diaspora have retained a lot of their original ancestry, the majority of it, so much so that they are vastly different from the host populations in which they have lived in the last thousand years (Germans and Eastern Europeans). They have absorbed in varying degrees a minoritary degree of the ancestry of the peoples they have lived in, but that is notably small.

Ashkenazim plot halfway between Palestinians and Germans on West Eurasian plots. But of course they look much more like the Germans.

[curupira]

Ashkenazim plot halfway between Palestinians and Germans on West Eurasian plots. But of course they look much more like the Germans.

No, they don't. FaerieQueen, who is half Palestinian half Anglo, plots significant more Northwards than Ashkenazi Jews, that is, they aren't half Germans at all.

An autosomal map from the eurogenes project (there is no way they are half Germans!), they're much closer to the Levant and overlap Sephardic Jews:

http://i42.tinypic.com/1pcex2.png

It is indeed amazing that for Ashkenazi Jews Germans (and Eastern Europeans) do not appear even among the first 40 closest to them!.

Dodecad k12b results of the Ashkenazi Jews:



DodecadOracle(c(2.8, 0.6, 4.2, 0, 25.1, 13.2, 1.3, 0.4, 12.8, 0.5, 39, 0),k=85)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Ashkenazy_Jews" "0"
[2,] "Ashkenazi_D" "1.8248"
[3,] "Sicilian_D" "6.1514"
[4,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "6.5383"
[5,] "Sephardic_Jews" "8.8578"
[6,] "Greek_D" "9.078"
[7,] "Morocco_Jews" "12.8031"
[8,] "C_Italian_D" "13.5477"
[9,] "Cypriots" "15.5827"
[10,] "O_Italian_D" "17.4333"
[11,] "Tuscan" "17.9025"
[12,] "Turkish_D" "18.9296"
[13,] "TSI30" "19.4728"
[14,] "Lebanese" "21.4156"
[15,] "Turks" "21.9066"
[16,] "Druze" "23.805"
[17,] "Bulgarian_D" "24.5668"
[18,] "Bulgarians_Y" "24.665"
[19,] "Syrians" "24.735"
[20,] "Jordanians" "25.6731"
[21,] "Romanians" "26.421"
[22,] "N_Italian_D" "26.5522"
[23,] "Palestinian" "26.908"
[24,] "North_Italian" "27.5764"
[25,] "Uzbekistan_Jews" "27.7743"
[26,] "Armenian_D" "28.6855"
[27,] "Georgia_Jews" "28.7531"
[28,] "Samaritans" "29.2602"
[29,] "Iraq_Jews" "29.3379"
[30,] "Assyrian_D" "29.3784"
[31,] "Azerbaijan_Jews" "29.5745"
[32,] "Armenians_15_Y" "29.8612"
[33,] "Armenians" "30.6504"
[34,] "Iranian_Jews" "31.1989"
[35,] "Kumyks_Y" "31.5393"
[36,] "Egyptans" "31.691"
[37,] "Nogais_Y" "31.8152"
[38,] "Kurds_Y" "32.7379"
[39,] "Kurd_D" "33.3354"
[40,] "Iranian_D" "33.6982"
[41,] "Iranians" "35.5892"
[42,] "Adygei" "35.933"
[43,] "Balkars_Y" "36.1872"
[44,] "Turkmens_Y" "36.4286"
[45,] "North_Ossetians_Y" "37.0169"
[46,] "Baleares_1KG" "37.042"
[47,] "Canarias_1KG" "37.5781"
[48,] "Chechens_Y" "37.7647"
[49,] "Yemenese" "38.3286"
[50,] "Galicia_1KG" "38.5051"
[51,] "Bedouin" "38.5096"
[52,] "Extremadura_1KG" "38.8348"
[53,] "Murcia_1KG" "39.0442"
[54,] "Portuguese_D" "39.0863"
[55,] "Lezgins" "39.5084"
[56,] "Andalucia_1KG" "39.7006"
[57,] "Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG" "41.1618"
[58,] "Spaniards" "42.0943"
[59,] "Spanish_D" "42.9535"
[60,] "Cataluna_1KG" "43.2757"
[61,] "Hungarians" "43.3482"
[62,] "Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG" "43.7549"
[63,] "Algerian_D" "44.0118"
[64,] "Valencia_1KG" "44.4297"
[65,] "Abhkasians_Y" "44.5719"
[66,] "Cantabria_1KG" "44.7376"
[67,] "French" "44.7471"
[68,] "French_D" "45.029"
[69,] "Aragon_1KG" "45.3586"
[70,] "Tajiks_Y" "45.9169"
[71,] "Uzbeks" "46.8559"
[72,] "Georgians" "47.4162"
[73,] "German_D" "47.9959"
[74,] "Yemen_Jews" "48.444"
[75,] "Mixed_Germanic_D" "49.3436"
[76,] "Sardinian" "51.231"
[77,] "Dutch_D" "51.3298"
[78,] "Kent_1KG" "52.1156"
[79,] "Bnei_Menashe_Jews" "52.3587"
[80,] "CEU30" "52.6992"
[81,] "English_D" "52.7228"
[82,] "Uygur" "53.2533"
[83,] "Cornwall_1KG" "53.4111"
[84,] "Moroccan_D" "53.5623"
[85,] "British_D" "54.1536"
[86,] "British_Isles_D" "54.2386"
[87,] "Hazara" "54.6536"
[88,] "Argyll_1KG" "55.2765"
[89,] "Moroccans" "55.4705"
[90,] "Irish_D" "55.6737"
[91,] "Ukranians_Y" "55.6758"
[92,] "Orcadian" "56.0235"
[93,] "Orkney_1KG" "56.2767"
[94,] "Chuvashs" "57.3128"
[95,] "Polish_D" "58.183"
[96,] "Mixed_Slav_D" "59.0689"
[97,] "Norwegian_D" "59.7258"
[98,] "Swedish_D" "59.8196"
[99,] "Pais_Vasco_1KG" "59.84"
[100,] "Pathan" "60.3621"
[101,] "Mordovians_Y" "60.596"
[102,] "Russian_B" "61.4236"
[103,] "Russian_D" "62.0663"
[104,] "Belorussian" "62.1939"
[105,] "Russian" "62.9443""

[curupira]

South Italians have about 30% R1b on average (peaking to 40% in some parts). Neither Jews or Levantines do that. .

A great deal of that R1b is like the ones Turks and Near Easterners carry (i.e ancestral types of R1b1b2), and still E1b + J are dominant, just like with Jews and Levantines (the first map isn't adding J1 unfortunately):

http://i40.tinypic.com/2j4c5k9.png
http://i43.tinypic.com/2dc7qkl.png

http://italydna.blogspot.com.br/2007/01/r1b-in-italy.html

[Prince Carlo]

No, they don't. FaerieQueen, who is half Palestinian half Anglo, plots significant more Northwards than Ashkenazi Jews, that is, they aren't half Germans at all.

23andme is not reliable. On Dough McDonald plot FQ plots more Southern than even the most Southern Sicilian (like Sicilianu).


A great deal of that R1b is like the ones Turks and Near Easterners carry (i.e ancestral types of R1b1b2), and still E1b + J are dominant, just like with Jews and Levantines (the first map isn't adding J1 unfortunately):

http://i40.tinypic.com/2j4c5k9.png
http://i43.tinypic.com/2dc7qkl.png

http://italydna.blogspot.com.br/2007/01/r1b-in-italy.html

Outdated nonsense from 2007. New stuff from 2013.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28670-Distribution-of-J2-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28660-Distribution-of-E1b1b-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28657-Breakdown-of-R1b-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)

E3b+J2 in Abruzzo, Campania, Molise don't make 25% of total haplogroups, while R1b is between 30 and 40%.

[curupira]

I was speaking of McDonald. Take into account she is half Palestinian. If she is more Northwards than they are at that much, they can't be half German at all. Just look at how more Northwards of them she is, and yet she is half Northern European (I don't think there is a problem posting her map, since she herself posted it already):

http://i39.tinypic.com/2i6dzr8.jpg


23andme is not reliable. On Dough McDonald plot FQ plots more Southern than even the most Southern Sicilian (like Sicilianu).

[curupira]

23andme is not reliable..

If they were half or significantly German they'd plot very differently even on 23andme. I've shared with many Ashkenazi Jews on 23andme. Even when by looks you'd expect something else, they usually tend to fall near/in the Middle East in a genetic map, most of the cases.

These are the positions they (Ashkenazi) stand on 23andme maps (these 2 are full blown German Jews whose ancestors have been living in Germany as long as they know it), they appear always either near the Druze or on the further end of Southern Europe, a position where I have seen Assyrians, Iraqi Jews and Turks to appear as well:

http://i39.tinypic.com/97lmw4.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2rxi59f.jpg

[Prince Carlo]

I was speaking of McDonald. Just look at how more Northwards of them she is, and yet she is half Northern European (I don't think there is a problem posting her map, since she herself posted it already):

http://i39.tinypic.com/2i6dzr8.jpg

Take into account she is half Palestinian. If she is more Northwards than they are at that much, they can't be half German at all.

Could you show where she did post that plot?

[Prince Carlo]

Never mind I've found it.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?69712-FairyPrincess-23andme-Results&p=1349945&viewfull=1#post1349945

She plots more Southern than any Sicilian on this forum. Even taking in account the huge African shift present in Sicily.

[curupira]

Those are her first maps, I posted her updated results. McDonald did it again in her case (http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5058635/1/), the map I posted are her updated results, and she is much more Northwards than the Jews are.


Never mind I've found it.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?69712-FairyPrincess-23andme-Results&p=1349945&viewfull=1#post1349945

She plots more Southern than any Sicilian on this forum. Even taking in account the huge African shift present in Sicily.

[curupira]

She plots more Southern than any Sicilian on this forum. Even taking in account the huge African shift present in Sicily.

These are her Dodecad k12b results (she is closer to Central Italians than to Sicilians, unlike Jews, i.e, a half Palestinian half Northern European comes out more Northern than your Ashkenazi):


# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.75
2 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.95
3 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.86
4 Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.36
5 Greek (Dodecad) 12.9
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.07
7 TSI30 (Metspalu) 13.11
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 14.26
9 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.46
10 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.29

You're just embarrassed she and Jews are closer to Southern Italians than Germans and Britons are. But this is just reality.

[Prince Carlo]

^^ There are no Levantines or any other Hardcore Mena group there. So the plot is not showing her full genome. That's also happens with Iranians, who plot with Georgians when there ain't any South Asian cluster. Otherwise they wouldn't.


These are her Dodecad k12b results (she is closer to Central Italians than to Sicilians, unlike Jews, i.e, a half Palestinian half Northern European comes out more Northern than your Ashkenazi):

K12b is outdated shit from 2011. See her new results from the lastest Eurogenes run. She is very close to Ashkenazim but more African/Southern than them.

[curupira]

K12b is outdated shit from 2011. See her new results from the lastest Eurogenes run. She is very close to Ashkenazim but more African/Southern than them.

They are not outdated at all. They fit with her position in the maps, she is more Northern than Jews. Her Dodecad World9 results (closer to Central Italians than to Sicilians and Jews)


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek @ 3.014
2 C_Italian @ 5.602
3 Ashkenazy_Jews @ 6.390
4 Sicilian @ 6.844
5 S_Italian_Sicilian @ 7.082

[curupira]

Anyway, as I pointed out there is no way Ashkenazi Jews would be half German or half Eastern European.

An autosomal map from the eurogenes project, they're much closer to the Levant and overlap with Sephardic Jews (Sephardic Jews for the most part haven't lived in Northern Europe):

http://i42.tinypic.com/1pcex2.png

It is indeed amazing that for Ashkenazi Jews Germans (and Eastern Europeans) do not appear even among the first 40 closest to them!

Dodecad k12b results of the Ashkenazi Jews:



DodecadOracle(c(2.8, 0.6, 4.2, 0, 25.1, 13.2, 1.3, 0.4, 12.8, 0.5, 39, 0),k=85)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Ashkenazy_Jews" "0"
[2,] "Ashkenazi_D" "1.8248"
[3,] "Sicilian_D" "6.1514"
[4,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "6.5383"
[5,] "Sephardic_Jews" "8.8578"
[6,] "Greek_D" "9.078"
[7,] "Morocco_Jews" "12.8031"
[8,] "C_Italian_D" "13.5477"
[9,] "Cypriots" "15.5827"
[10,] "O_Italian_D" "17.4333"
[11,] "Tuscan" "17.9025"
[12,] "Turkish_D" "18.9296"
[13,] "TSI30" "19.4728"
[14,] "Lebanese" "21.4156"
[15,] "Turks" "21.9066"
[16,] "Druze" "23.805"
[17,] "Bulgarian_D" "24.5668"
[18,] "Bulgarians_Y" "24.665"
[19,] "Syrians" "24.735"
[20,] "Jordanians" "25.6731"
[21,] "Romanians" "26.421"
[22,] "N_Italian_D" "26.5522"
[23,] "Palestinian" "26.908"
[24,] "North_Italian" "27.5764"
[25,] "Uzbekistan_Jews" "27.7743"
[26,] "Armenian_D" "28.6855"
[27,] "Georgia_Jews" "28.7531"
[28,] "Samaritans" "29.2602"
[29,] "Iraq_Jews" "29.3379"
[30,] "Assyrian_D" "29.3784"
[31,] "Azerbaijan_Jews" "29.5745"
[32,] "Armenians_15_Y" "29.8612"
[33,] "Armenians" "30.6504"
[34,] "Iranian_Jews" "31.1989"
[35,] "Kumyks_Y" "31.5393"
[36,] "Egyptans" "31.691"
[37,] "Nogais_Y" "31.8152"
[38,] "Kurds_Y" "32.7379"
[39,] "Kurd_D" "33.3354"
[40,] "Iranian_D" "33.6982"
[41,] "Iranians" "35.5892"
[42,] "Adygei" "35.933"
[43,] "Balkars_Y" "36.1872"
[44,] "Turkmens_Y" "36.4286"
[45,] "North_Ossetians_Y" "37.0169"
[46,] "Baleares_1KG" "37.042"
[47,] "Canarias_1KG" "37.5781"
[48,] "Chechens_Y" "37.7647"
[49,] "Yemenese" "38.3286"
[50,] "Galicia_1KG" "38.5051"
[51,] "Bedouin" "38.5096"
[52,] "Extremadura_1KG" "38.8348"
[53,] "Murcia_1KG" "39.0442"
[54,] "Portuguese_D" "39.0863"
[55,] "Lezgins" "39.5084"
[56,] "Andalucia_1KG" "39.7006"
[57,] "Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG" "41.1618"
[58,] "Spaniards" "42.0943"
[59,] "Spanish_D" "42.9535"
[60,] "Cataluna_1KG" "43.2757"
[61,] "Hungarians" "43.3482"
[62,] "Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG" "43.7549"
[63,] "Algerian_D" "44.0118"
[64,] "Valencia_1KG" "44.4297"
[65,] "Abhkasians_Y" "44.5719"
[66,] "Cantabria_1KG" "44.7376"
[67,] "French" "44.7471"
[68,] "French_D" "45.029"
[69,] "Aragon_1KG" "45.3586"
[70,] "Tajiks_Y" "45.9169"
[71,] "Uzbeks" "46.8559"
[72,] "Georgians" "47.4162"
[73,] "German_D" "47.9959"
[74,] "Yemen_Jews" "48.444"
[75,] "Mixed_Germanic_D" "49.3436"
[76,] "Sardinian" "51.231"
[77,] "Dutch_D" "51.3298"
[78,] "Kent_1KG" "52.1156"
[79,] "Bnei_Menashe_Jews" "52.3587"
[80,] "CEU30" "52.6992"
[81,] "English_D" "52.7228"
[82,] "Uygur" "53.2533"
[83,] "Cornwall_1KG" "53.4111"
[84,] "Moroccan_D" "53.5623"
[85,] "British_D" "54.1536"
[86,] "British_Isles_D" "54.2386"
[87,] "Hazara" "54.6536"
[88,] "Argyll_1KG" "55.2765"
[89,] "Moroccans" "55.4705"
[90,] "Irish_D" "55.6737"
[91,] "Ukranians_Y" "55.6758"
[92,] "Orcadian" "56.0235"
[93,] "Orkney_1KG" "56.2767"
[94,] "Chuvashs" "57.3128"
[95,] "Polish_D" "58.183"
[96,] "Mixed_Slav_D" "59.0689"
[97,] "Norwegian_D" "59.7258"
[98,] "Swedish_D" "59.8196"
[99,] "Pais_Vasco_1KG" "59.84"
[100,] "Pathan" "60.3621"
[101,] "Mordovians_Y" "60.596"
[102,] "Russian_B" "61.4236"
[103,] "Russian_D" "62.0663"
[104,] "Belorussian" "62.1939"
[105,] "Russian" "62.9443""

[dhunter93]

You keep repeating "Behar is more reliable" and yet ignore that his study is 10 years old and was done to prove a middle eastern origin for Jews. Much more information is available today and it's quite clear their mtdna is not middle eastern (Sephardic jews excluded of course)

[curupira]

More reliable since Behar has been researching it for a much longer time. Besides, as he pointed out K and N1b are also present among Near Eastern Jewish and Sephardic Jewish communities, although at different frequencies (founder effect would be an explanation for it). K in particular is widespread and common in the Levant. And N1b is also present among Near Eastern populations.

Even if the mtDNA were european, from the autosomal point of view, which is the one that really matters, since it takes into account the majority of the ancestors of a given person, Ashkenazi Jews are clearly pulled towards the Levant and overlapping with Sephardic Jews. :)

Let's wait and see. Other studies will come up.


You keep repeating "Behar is more reliable" and yet ignore that his study is 10 years old and was done to prove a middle eastern origin for Jews. Much more information is available today and it's quite clear their mtdna is not middle eastern (Sephardic jews excluded of course)

[Prince Carlo]

These are her Dodecad k12b results (she is closer to Central Italians than to Sicilians, unlike Jews, i.e, a half Palestinian half Northern European comes out more Northern than your Ashkenazi):

LoL? World9 is even more outdated than K12b.

http://dodecad.blogspot.it/2011/12/world9-calculator.html

Here are her newest results.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?98709-Eurogenes-EUtest-V2-K15-Says-I-m-Serbian&p=2016531&viewfull=1#post2016531

This match a lot better with her position on plots. She scores higher Atlantic/North Sea. Ashkenazim score higher East Euro/Baltic.


You're just embarrassed she and Jews are closer to Southern Italians than Germans and Britons are. But this is just reality.

Hahaaha. Yes suuure. :D

[curupira]

LoL? World9 is even more outdated than K12b.

http://dodecad.blogspot.it/2011/12/world9-calculator.html

Here are her newest results.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?98709-Eurogenes-EUtest-V2-K15-Says-I-m-Serbian&p=2016531&viewfull=1#post2016531

This match a lot better with her position on plots. She scores higher Atlantic/North Sea. Ashkenazim score higher East Euro/Baltic.

Hahaaha. Yes suuure. :D

Dodecad k12b and world9 are not outdated. They fit with the maps. Do I need to remind you that Dienekes, not the eurogenes project, came up with that new technique? Just have a look at the maps. Anyway, the results are still basically the same. She clusters with Italians, just like Jews (Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews), because Italians and Jews have a very large Levantine/Near Eastern ancestral component.

Dodecad Oracle k12b results of Sephardic Jews for comparison (they haven't lived in Northern Europe for the most part, and their results are basically just like those of Ashkenazi and Moroccan Jews):


DodecadOracle(c(5.7, 0.2, 6.2, 0, 26.5, 6.1, 0.4, 0.7, 16.2, 0, 38.1, 0),k=30)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Sephardic_Jews" "0"
[2,] "Morocco_Jews" "5.7585"
[3,] "Ashkenazi_D" "8.3277"
[4,] "Sicilian_D" "8.5417"
[5,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "8.6052"
[6,] "Ashkenazy_Jews" "8.8578"
[7,] "Cypriots" "13.5558"
[8,] "Greek_D" "16.6274"
[9,] "C_Italian_D" "17.2853"
[10,] "Lebanese" "17.834"
[11,] "Turkish_D" "20.2195"
[12,] "Druze" "20.5436"
[13,] "Syrians" "20.837"
[14,] "Jordanians" "21.1724"
[15,] "Tuscan" "21.6222"
[16,] "O_Italian_D" "22.0354"
[17,] "Palestinian" "22.4686"
[18,] "Turks" "22.6363"
[19,] "TSI30" "22.865"
[20,] "Uzbekistan_Jews" "25.6447"
[21,] "Iraq_Jews" "25.6576"
[22,] "Samaritians" "25.7806"
[23,] "Assyrian_D" "26.7688"
[24,] "Georgia_Jews" "27.0252"
[25,] "Azerbaijan_Jews" "27.0671"
[26,] "Armenian_D" "27.4321"
[27,] "Egyptans" "27.8068"
[28,] "Iranian_Jews" "27.9687"
[29,] "Armenians_15_Y" "28.755"
[30,] "N_Italian_D" "30.016"

[dhunter93]

More reliable since Behar has been researching if for a much longer time. Besides, as he pointed out K and N1b are also present among Near Eastern Jewish and Sephardic Jewish communities, although at different frequencies (founder effect would be an explanation for it). K in particular is widespread and common in the Levant. And N1b is also present among Near Eastern populations.

Even if the mtDNA were european, from the autosomal point of view, which is the one that really matters, since it takes into account the majority of the ancestors of a given person, Ashkenazi Jews are clearly pulled towards the Levant and overlapping with Sephardic Jews. :)

Let's wait and see. Other studies will come up.

you just keep posting outdated information over and over again, N1b and n1b1 are Eurasian with a European migration west and back migration to the near east, you need to update your information.

[Prince Carlo]

Dodecad k12b and world9 are not outdated. They fit with the maps. Do I need to remind you that Dienekes, not the eurogenes project, came up with that new technique? Just have a look at the maps. Anyway, the results are still basically the same. She clusters with Italians, just like Jews (Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews), because Italians and Jews have a very large Levantine/Near Eastern ancestral component.

Dodecad Oracle k12b results of Sephardic Jews for comparison (they haven't lived in Northern Europe for the most part, and their results are basically just like those of Ashkenazi and Moroccan Jews):

Oracle results from older Dodecad runs have many flaws like the calculator effect, so they are unreliable.

First of all, her father is a Christian Palestinian and is genetically closer to Lebanese than to proper Palestinians. FQ may have more North European admixture than Jews, but she also scores more African than them, and that's why she clusters with them on the Dough Mc Donald plot. 23andme plots are not very reliable.

[curupira]

Oracle results from older Dodecad runs have many flaws like the calculator effect, so they are unreliable. .

They are reliable, they aren't perfect, just like eurogenes runs aren't either, they also have the same flaws. That technique in particular was pioneered by Dienekes. I don't know why he stopped with it. Dodecad has been able to pinpoint ancestry accurately, and eurogenes results are similar, without much difference anyway.

As for Jews, as I said Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews plot basically on the same place on the maps, in spite of Ashkenazi Jews having lived in Northern Europe in the last thousand years and most Sephardic Jews elsewhere. That should say something about how much they kept to themselves.

[Prince Carlo]

They are reliable, they aren't perfect, just like eurogenes runs aren't either, they also have the same flaws. That technique in particular was pioneered by Dienekes. I don't know why he stopped with it. Dodecad has been able to pinpoint ancestry accurately, and eurogenes results are similar, without much difference anyway. .

Because Dodecad oracle softwares are shit and Eurogenes oracle gives more reliable results.


As for Jews, as I said Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews plot basically on the same place on the maps, in spite of Ashkenazi Jews having lived in Northern Europe in the last thousand years and most Sephardic Jews elsewhere. That should say something about how much they kept to themselves.

Sephardim have been living in Europe for much longer than the Ashkenazim. Morocco Jews are mostly the offspring of the Sephardim who were expelled from Spain and other parts of Europe. Both the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim carry a lot of European admixture. See Haber et al. 2013 for info.


That should say something about how much they kept to themselves.

Dienekes had excluded the Jews with recent Euro admixture from his database. So they did not keep to themselves.

[Stormer99]

Not all North African Jews are Sephardic. There are indigenous Mizrahis of North Africa and there are also Berber Jews.

[Prince Carlo]

Not all North African Jews are Sephardic. There are indigenous Mizrahis of North Africa and there are also Berber Jews.

I was talking about Moroccan Jews who are mostly the offspring of the Iberian Sephardim.

[Stormer99]

I was talking about Moroccan Jews who are mostly the offspring of the Iberian Sephardim.

OK understood. The Berber Jews would not plot with the above I think.

[curupira]

* They do not give more reliable results at all. They give about the same results, and Dodecad invented the technique. Eurogenes just copied it and regurgitates it.

* It is not only Dodecad project members, it is also Ashkenazi Jews from the Atzmon and Behar studies as well as those from other studies, Ashkenazi Jews who got tested with eurogenes, the many Jews I have shared with for many years on 23andme, the Jews I have seen on decodeme, etc... Ashkenazi Jews are clearly very different from the populations in which they have lived in the last thousand years, in terms of ancestry. They overlap with Sephardic Jews, not with Germans or Eastern Europeans. Sephardic Jews haven't lived in Northern Europe like Ashkenazi Jews, and they have lived in North Africa, Turkey and other non European places after they were expelled, and they overlap with Ashkenazi Jews. Their overlapping, both in terms of autosomal, and shared mtDNA and yDNA, should tell how much they kept to themselves. I'm not denying there was mixing. I'm just saying it was not as widespread to the point of making them to be similar to Germans or Eastern Europeans, not even close to that.

Eurogenes map (Sephardic Jews overlapping with Ashkenazi Jews), do you see it here? Look for Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Eastern Europeans and Germans (in spite of having lived apart from each other, Ashkenazi Jews cluster with Sephardic Jews, not with Germans or Eastern Europeans):

http://i40.tinypic.com/2d2hphf.png



.

Because Dodecad oracle softwares are shit and Eurogenes oracle gives more reliable results.



Sephardim have been living in Europe for much longer than the Ashkenazim. Morocco Jews are mostly the offspring of the Sephardim who were expelled from Spain and other parts of Europe. Both the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim carry a lot of European admixture. See Haber et al. 2013 for info.



Dienekes had excluded the Jews with recent Euro admixture from his database. So they did not keep to themselves.

[dhunter93]

I am not sure what some of you are trying to prove, facts are askenazi Jewish woman are not middle eastern in origin. That does not mean that these woman did not convert to Judaism and become part of a very closed community of people. N1b mtdna is a great example of this, it mutated to N1b2 ( 16176A ) which is exclusively found in Jewish mtdna. Do a search on N1b2 ( 16176A ) in an ancestry data base and you will find all Jewish names associated with it, Change the mtdna to N1b1 ( 16176G ) and you won't find any Jewish names or family history. This is a simple way of demonstrating how jewish woman were taken from a none Jewish population (N1b).

So biblical history ended up being right this time and the way to tell if you are Jewish is by your Y Chromosome.

[Mark]

If you want the truth look at the Y dna in Jewish men , there is no question that it is not only middle eastern in origin but also almost 100% Jewish.

Not in my case and I'm Jewish.

[dhunter93]

Not in my case and I'm Jewish.


I think you might not have read the entire post, the only was to have a direct connection to the middle eastern Jews of the bible is to have the Y Chromosome ( Kohanim ) it does not mean that you are not Jewish if you don't have it.. It just means you are not middle eastern.

[Mark]

I think you might not have read the entire post, the only was to have a direct connection to the middle eastern Jews of the bible is to have the Y Chromosome ( Kohanim ) it does not mean that you are not Jewish if you don't have it.. It just means you are not middle eastern.
Ah, okay. I thought you were only referring to the Y-DNA haplogroups.

[TheForeigner]

How come so many romans and other europeans would have converted to judaism though? And why mainly females and few men?

[TheForeigner]

bump

[Longbowman]

How come so many romans and other europeans would have converted to judaism though? And why mainly females and few men?

We'll never know, but they did.

At one point perhaps as many as 10 million converts existed in the Roman empire.

[TheForeigner]

We'll never know, but they did.

At one point perhaps as many as 10 million converts existed in the Roman empire.

Yes that's what it said even in nyt I believe. Seems very hard to believe. How come we never heard of it before? Also are you a jew or what ethnicity or ethnic mix? I'm a balkanic mutt from Romania myself.

[TheForeigner]

I would have imagined they would have been slave girls,more than proper italian romans, but they say italian romans...

[TheForeigner]

Were jewish women somewhere else alone or something? Roman girls were going wild for ''nice jewish boys'' or something? Wow they were filming ''The Graduate'' with proto-Dustin Hoffman and proto-Anne Bancroft!

[Xanthias]

thread is full of crap, N1b isn't a properly speaking a ME hapl anymore (though in the past maybe), Jews are of suistnable part of middle-eastern and nearly european stock (at least ashkenazi jews) nothing to add for it.