mtDNA Haplogroup U5 Dominated Late Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher Samples From Central Europe/Germany

[Black Wolf]

It does not seem that this fascinating study that was released by Ruth Bollongino on October. 10, 2013 has received much attention which is unfortunate because it gives important clues as to how people were living in Central Europe 2000 years after farming had already been established there. It shows that even 2000 years after farming had been present in Central Europe some people were still living as hunter-gatherers essentially and that the mtDNA of the hunter-gatherer-fishers and farmers who both used the same cave as a burial site was very different. The hunter-gatherer-fisher samples were only comprised of mtDNA haplogroup U5 types while the farmer samples were much more diverse including some U5 types that probably came from admixture with local hunter-gatherers. It appears then that at least in this part of Europe hunter-gatherers continued to exist for a long time after Neolithic farmers arrived and apparently they kept to themselves at least genetically even though they used the same burial sites. They lived side by side essentially but seem to have occupied different ecological niches. Here are the mtDNA results of the samples from this study and their respective methods of obtaining food that was shown by isotope analysis. Links below to the paper in Science and also Jean Manco's excellent ancient DNA page.

Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher: U5b2b
Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher: U5
Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher: U5b
Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher: U5
Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher: U5b2b2
Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher: U5
Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher: U5
Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher: U5b
Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher: U5b2a2

Farmer: U5b2a2
Farmer: H5
Farmer: H5
Farmer: H11a
Farmer: U5b2a5
Farmer: H1c3
Farmer: H5
Farmer: J

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6157/479.abstract

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

[Jackson]

Thought i'd post this here, taken from a post by GailT at Anthrogenica. Recent study in Denmark found U5 made up 8% of the samples, and about 3/4 of all the U5 was U5a, the other 1/4 was U5b. Seems U5a1b has a fair showing there, which is interesting. Makes sense, given that 23&me say it is common in northern Germany and Norway, that it is fairly common in Denmark too. It looks like most of the groups of U5 get a decent showing.


I'll use this thread for updates on new U5 sequences, starting with the results from the new Li et al study on diabetes in Denmark. The study has 2000 full mtDNA sequences, including 160 in haplogroup U5, or 8%. The sequencing is of uneven quality with some samples having large numbers of no calls, but I was able to place all but 1 in subclades of U5, listed below.

It is interesting that Denmark is nearly 73% U5a and 27% U5b. The U5b samples are heavily concentrated in U5b2. In constrast, the recent 13 U5 samples from northwest Spain (Zamorra Province) were 31% U5a and 69% U5b.

Some notable finds were new U5a1*, U5b1* and U5b3* samples.

For two of the subclades found often in Finland, U5b1b1a and U5b1b2, there were no U5b1b1a samples, and there were 3 U5b1b2 samples. I've speculated that U5b1b1a arrived in Finland via an eastern European route, and U5b1b2 via a western European route, and these results seem consistent with that theory.


U5a1 = 51%
N = 84
U5a1* = 1
U5a1a1 = 31
U5a1a2 = 5
U5a1b = 22
U5a1c2a = 9
U5a1d = 3
U5a1e = 1
U5a1f = 4
U5a1g = 4
U5a1h = 4
U5a1*i1 = 1

U5a2 = 21%
N = 34
U5a2a = 13
U5a2b = 10
U5a2c = 5
U5a2d = 3
U5a2e = 1
U5a2*g =1


U5b1 = 7.6%
N = 12
U5b1* = 1
U5b1b2 = 3
U5b1c2 = 1
U5b1c2b = 3
U5b1d2 = 2
U5b1e = 2


U5b2 = 17%
N = 27
U5b2a1a1 = 3
U5b2a1a1*C = 2
U5b2a1a1*C2 = 2
U5b2a2a1 = 4
U5b2a2b = 1
U5b2a2b1 = 3
U5b2a2c = 1
U5b2a4a = 1
U5b2a5 = 1

U5b2b* = 1
U5b2b1a = 1
U5b2b4 = 3
U5b2b4*B = 2
U5b2b4*B1 = 1

U5b2c2b = 1


U5b3 = 1.3%
N = 2
U5b3* = 1
U5b3e = 1

[Fire Haired]

I know Jaxman you have heard me preach this same thing many times but maybe I have learned some new things.

I don't understand how it is possible that the farmers replaced the vast majority of hunter gather maternal linages yet autosomal dna shows many Europeans may mainly descend from hunter gathers. With all I have learned it seems what makes Europeans distinct from other west Eurasians is the North European like ancestry. The farmer seem to be new comers since they are so overwhelmingly Med like with little southwest Asian and west Asian.

No one in the middle east though is so Med. Only Europeans and especially the farmers closest relatives Sardinia people. I think the farmers in all of Neolithic period in Europe probably looked very close to their closest relatives Sardinia people. Like many southern Europeans pale-olive skin, dark hair and eyes. The only pigmentation there is found from a farmer is Otzi and that is exactly what he had fair skin, brown hair, and brown eyes(there will need to be many samples to be for sure). That pigmentation is much closer to Europeans(probably also Mesolithic hunter gathers) than Near easterns. How do you explain already very exclusively European mtDNA haplogroups like J1c in early Neolithic farmer samples. It is very hard to explain how non U5, U2e, and U4 mtDNA in Europe arrived from the Near east just 9,000ybp. How could the farmers Med like autosomal DNA, mtDNA, and pale skin come from the same ancestors as modern near easterns??

I may have simplified the farmers in the entire continent of Europe. There may have been very different groups than the ones Otzi, Gok4, and it LBK and Cardiel were apart of.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I know Jaxman you have heard me preach this same thing many times but maybe I have learned some new things.

I don't understand how it is possible that the farmers replaced the vast majority of hunter gather maternal linages yet autosomal dna shows many Europeans may mainly descend from hunter gathers. With all I have learned it seems what makes Europeans distinct from other west Eurasians is the North European like ancestry. The farmer seem to be new comers since they are so overwhelmingly Med like with little southwest Asian and west Asian.

It's how genetic drift works. If you have small groups and you have very small additions of a different clade over time they simply are going to trickle out. Autosomals don't trickle out nearly so easily as mtdna or y-dna though.



No one in the middle east though is so Med. Only Europeans and especially the farmers closest relatives Sardinia people. I think the farmers in all of Neolithic period in Europe probably looked very close to their closest relatives Sardinia people. Like many southern Europeans pale-olive skin, dark hair and eyes. The only pigmentation there is found from a farmer is Otzi and that is exactly what he had fair skin, brown hair, and brown eyes(there will need to be many samples to be for sure). That pigmentation is much closer to Europeans(probably also Mesolithic hunter gathers) than Near easterns. How do you explain already very exclusively European mtDNA haplogroups like J1c in early Neolithic farmer samples. It is very hard to explain how non U5, U2e, and U4 mtDNA in Europe arrived from the Near east just 9,000ybp. How could the farmers Med like autosomal DNA, mtDNA, and pale skin come from the same ancestors as modern near easterns??

I may have simplified the farmers in the entire continent of Europe. There may have been very different groups than the ones Otzi, Gok4, and it LBK and Cardiel were apart of.
Because the assumption is the med component comes from med, it's probably other way around, and went into med.

Near east was close to wiped out, too, and again gene flow is probably other way - near east got populated by europe and levant after bronze age collapse.

[Maleficent]

Is there similar Hunter Gatherer Fisher/Farmer classifications out there for other mtdna such as U2e and H13.....?!

[d3cimat3d]

Neolithic H1, bitches, learn to farm cavemen

[Black Wolf]

Is there similar Hunter Gatherer Fisher/Farmer classifications out there for other mtdna such as U2e and H13.....?!

U2e probably has a local Northeastern European origin among Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. The H subclades still need a lot more work. I think it is quite possible that some were present among Iberian and Balkan Mesolithic hunter-gatherers but we need ancient DNA results first to be sure of it. We have to wait.

[Black Wolf]

It's how genetic drift works. If you have small groups and you have very small additions of a different clade over time they simply are going to trickle out. Autosomals don't trickle out nearly so easily as mtdna or y-dna though.


Because the assumption is the med component comes from med, it's probably other way around, and went into med.

Near east was close to wiped out, too, and again gene flow is probably other way - near east got populated by europe and levant after bronze age collapse.

Yes I believe you are actually right on some of this. I think there is a good possibility that the modern Near East is not the same as the ancient Near East genetically. There is a very good chance that the ancient Near East looked quite Mediterranean genetically and then at some point like in parts of Europe this people's Neolithic societies collapsed and Bronze Age peopled filled the void who came from outlying areas. In the Near Easy then it changed from a genetically Mediterranean like Neolithic population to West Asian (Caucasus) and Southwest Asian (Levantine/Semitic) mix mainly. Of course some of the Mediterranean element remained behind though and was assimilated as well.

[Fire Haired]

Yes I believe you are actually right on some of this. I think there is a good possibility that the modern Near East is not the same as the ancient Near East genetically. There is a very good chance that the ancient Near East looked quite Mediterranean genetically and then at some point like in parts of Europe this people's Neolithic societies collapsed and Bronze Age peopled filled the void who came from outlying areas. In the Near Easy then it changed from a genetically Mediterranean like Neolithic population to West Asian (Caucasus) and Southwest Asian (Levantine/Semitic) mix mainly. Of course some of the Mediterranean element remained behind though and was assimilated as well.

I don't see how farmers Otzi and Gok4 are Near eastern. They were very Med and very non Southwest Asian and west Asian like. The "Near eastern farmers" that arrived in Europe don't seem that much like modern Near easterns. I definitely don't think that the Med people of the Near east where partly replaced by west Asian and southwest Asian like people. Who must have been hiding in caves for 10,000's of years and suddenly decided to leave. I have heard even crazier theories that all other Caucasians aka west Eurasians migrated out of Europe just 17,000 years ago or so. Nothing in Y DNA, mtDNA, or autosomal DNA defends this idea.

[Fire Haired]

Is there similar Hunter Gatherer Fisher/Farmer classifications out there for other mtdna such as U2e and H13.....?!
You can look through Ancient Eurasian DNA yourself and see the differences between hunter gatherers and farmers. Hunter gatherers are in Mesolithic and Palaeolithic age. By looking at Ancient DNA mtDNA U2e is definitely European hunter gatherer descended(maybe some is not even European originally) and H13 probably farmer descended.

[Maleficent]

You can look through Ancient Eurasian DNA yourself and see the differences between hunter gatherers and farmers. Hunter gatherers are in Mesolithic and Palaeolithic age. By looking at Ancient DNA mtDNA U2e is definitely European hunter gatherer descended(maybe some is not even European originally) and H13 probably farmer descended.
I do know the difference between Ancient Eurasian Hunter Gatherer and Farmer DNA. It's just that there's not too much in-depth information out there on U2e and H13 becuase they're more rare. As far as I know, all of U2e and its subclades must be European since U2e is a European subclade of U2 which diverged from the South Asian U2i 50kya. There isn't any specific area of Europe that it peaks. And H13 and its subclades seem to be of Northern Middle Eastern origin and still peaks to this day around the Dagestan area. But like I said that's as far as it goes in terms specific information since they're both quite rare.

[Dál Riata]

Proud to be U5! :cool:

[Caismeachd]

Let's go fishing.

[Cody Gearhart]

so which country would the haplogroup U5a1d belong to? i have U5a1d on my mothers side.

[Black Wolf]

so which country would the haplogroup U5a1d belong to? i have U5a1d on my mothers side.

Haplogroups do not belong to any one country or ethnicity generally. They tend to be spread out amongst numerous countries and ethnicities and in many cases correlate mainly with geography.

[Jackson]

so which country would the haplogroup U5a1d belong to? i have U5a1d on my mothers side.

Looking at the map on here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/u5b/default.aspx?section=mtmap
Mainly U5a1d subclades seem to be present in northern and eastern Europe. U5a1 in general seems to be closer tied to northern and eastern Europe than other U5 i think.

[DataType]

U5b2b or not 2b? :D

[Fire Haired]

U5b2b or not 2b? :D

Are you talking about yourself?

[DataType]

Are you talking about yourself?

No, I have not tested my DNA, and am new to this subject. (It was just a wee joke).

[Anglojew]

Looking at the map on here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/u5b/default.aspx?section=mtmap
Mainly U5a1d subclades seem to be present in northern and eastern Europe. U5a1 in general seems to be closer tied to northern and eastern Europe than other U5 i think.

Put me in Ireland on that map not Wales. How accurate is it?