What Exactly Is The North European Component Made Up Of?

[Black Wolf]

What type of alleles is the North European autosomal component that both Polako and Dienekes have dicovered in their respective projects made up of? I have asked Polako about it and he told me that it is made up of a composite of European Mesolithic hunter-gatherer alleles combined with some types of Neolithic farmer alleles. While this obviously could be true I am not 100% certain about this. We know that the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (La Brana from Spain and PWC from Sweden) who have had their autosomal DNA sequenced have been shown to belong dominantly to the North European component. Dienekes showed this in his globe13 analysis of them. A newer study has shown that they are closest genetically to Lithuanians which makes sense as Lithuanians have the highest percentage of the North European autosomal component of any ethnic groups around today. Lithuanians and other people's such as Finns who live close to the Baltic sea are known to have limited genetic contribution of Neolithic farmers to their genomes. So I wonder if it is possible if the North European component is actually a component that is pretty much purely made up of Mesolithic hunter-gatherer alleles instead of also having some Neolithic farmer alleles mixed in? Thoughts?

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/10/assessment-of-ancient-european-dna-with.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/09/reconstructing-human-past-using-ancient.html

[Kale]

The only fit I see for the North European group is Mesolithic populations belonging to Y-Dna clades of R1a + R1b.

The reason they say any group on those calculators is part something else is for refining purposes. For example, Dodecad split up their old West Asian component into two more specific and accurate components. If you were able to refine the groups enough you could theoretically end up with something near pure.

[Black Wolf]

The only fit I see for the North European group is Mesolithic populations belonging to Y-Dna clades of R1a + R1b.

The reason they say any group on those calculators is part something else is for refining purposes. For example, Dodecad split up their old West Asian component into two more specific and accurate components. If you were able to refine the groups enough you could theoretically end up with something near pure.

I agree with some of what you say but not all of it. There is no way that only R1a and R1b were the only Y-DNA haplogroups of the Mesolithic populations of Europe. Finns have a massive amount of the North European autosomal component but barely any Y-DNA haplogroup R. Other Y-DNA haplgroups such as I1 and N1c were probably part as well. There is also mtDNA to consider.

[Kale]

I completely agree and never intended to imply anything to the contrary.

The Mesolithic populations of Europe are represented by the components of North_European and Atlantic_Med; North_European being R1a+R1b like I said, and Atlantic_Med being all clades of I. In the case of Finns, who have little R, but lots of North_European, it makes me think that R was there first, and the I1 Atlantic_Med bred R out a bit, the same way Siberian N1c did to both later on.

[Black Wolf]

Polako thinks the North European autosomal component is probably composed of around say 80% Mesolithic hunter-gatherer alleles and 20% Neolithic farmer alleles. On the other hand he thinks the Mediterranean component is purely Neolithic and the West Asian one is a very mixed component.

[Smeagol]

Polako thinks the North European autosomal component is probably composed of around say 80% Mesolithic hunter-gatherer alleles and 20% Neolithic farmer alleles.

That's what I think.

[Black Wolf]

That's what I think.

Makes sense I think.

[Kale]

Jaxman - That may be, that the currently specified North_European component is part Neolithic, but I don't think they are giving themselves enough credit. If it is, it must be substantially less than 20%. Because if North_European is 20% neolithic, we should certainly be seeing quite a frequency of neolithic haplogroups all through Europe shouldn't we?

Latvia/Lithuania: 75% North_European, 1.5% neolithic haplogroups (with ~10% of visible neolithic autosomal components to account for that)
Finland: 75% North_European, 0.5% neolithic haplogroups (with 4% visible neolithic autosomal components to account for that)
Iceland: ~50% North_European, 0% neolithic haplogroups