R1b1a2a1a2b PF6570/S28/U152

[Sizzo]

Who are the responsibles of my haplogroup's spread, exactly?

[Zmey Gorynych]

Ask Artek, he's into this genetic stuff and specifically R1A/R1B subclades.

[Jackson]

In more relatively recent times, Gauls and to a lesser extent Romans?
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

[Sizzo]

In more relatively recent times, Gauls and to a lesser extent Romans?
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

I don't understand that presence in Corsica. Couldn't be Ligurian?

[Prince Carlo]

I don't understand that presence in Corsica. Couldn't be Ligurian?

Founder effect.

[Styrian Mujo]

It belongs to the celto-Italic indo-europeans ofcourse. The hg. was probably more wide spread in Italy but was later displaced by certain subclades of J,E and T wich came with the masses of slaves and immigrants from north africa/near east during the Roman period.

[Sizzo]

It belongs to the celto-Italic indo-europeans ofcourse. The hg. was probably more wide spread in Italy but was later displaced by certain subclades of J,E and T wich came with the masses of slaves and immigrants from north africa/near east during the Roman period.

Hallstatt from Central Europe then? Proto-Celts (Golasecca), Italics, Venetics?

[Prince Carlo]

It belongs to the celto-Italic indo-europeans ofcourse. The hg. was probably more wide spread in Italy but was later displaced by certain subclades of J,E and T wich came with the masses of slaves and immigrants from north africa/near east during the Roman period.

Here we go. This is the genetic section, not the fantasy one.

[Gaston]

We don't know what caused the spread of R1b-U152 or of any haplogroup for that matter for now. But the modern distribution is interesting.


It belongs to the celto-Italic indo-europeans ofcourse. The hg. was probably more wide spread in Italy but was later displaced by certain subclades of J,E and T wich came with the masses of slaves and immigrants from north africa/near east during the Roman period.

How old are you? 11?

[Styrian Mujo]

Why is it wrong to assume that R1b was spread by celto-italic peoples?

[Styrian Mujo]

Hallstatt from Central Europe then? Proto-Celts (Golasecca), Italics, Venetics?
It seems so but I have also heard that it could have been Etruscans but i doubt it.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Why is it wrong to assume that R1b was spread by celto-italic peoples?

Because the italic form of r1b had barely any longterm effect even on italy itself. So obviously it's been in europe a long time.

[Sizzo]

So, the only Indo-European haplogroup was R1a? If R1b-U152 is pre-indoeuropean could be Ligurian, Etruscan or Rhaetian.

[Armatus]

So, the only Indo-European haplogroup was R1a? If R1b-U152 is pre-indoeuropean could be Ligurian, Etruscan or Rhaetian.
No, U152 is below M269 and therefore indo-european like 99,9% of all R-Lineages in Europe. In my opinion it's impossible to distinguish Italic U152 from Gaulic U152, especially because there was a strong gene flow between N-Italics and Gauls and vice versa. You're line could be of a roman senator or of a gaulish slave, it's simply not predictable. Maybe with new Snps in the futures, full genome sequenzing etc.

[Sizzo]

No, U152 is below M269 and therefore indo-european like 99,9% of all R-Lineages in Europe. In my opinion it's impossible to distinguish Italic U152 from Gaulic U152, especially because there was a strong gene flow between N-Italics and Gauls and vice versa. You're line could be of a roman senator or of a gaulish slave, it's simply not predictable. Maybe with new Snps in the futures, full genome sequenzing etc.

Well, not necessarily a slave: there were Lepontic tribes as Orumbovii in my territory (Hallstatt Culture).

[Smaug]

Cisalpine Celtic/Gaulish.

[Sizzo]

Cisalpine Celtic/Gaulish.

Venetic too, maybe?

[Smaug]

Venetic too, maybe?

Yes, all the Hallstatt/La Tène peoples of Northern Italy.

[Sizzo]

Yes, all the Hallstatt/La Tène peoples of Northern Italy.

And Italic as Umbrians, Picentes, Villanova, Latins, Samnites etc. I guess.

[Armatus]

Well, not necessarily a slave: there were Lepontic tribes as Orumbovii in my territory (Hallstatt Culture).
I only used the contrast of senator-slave to show how unpredictable U152 atm is. Excuse me if i expressed myself not clear enough.
If i read it right you tested negative for all subclades of U152 ?

[Sizzo]

I only used the contrast of senator-slave to show how unpredictable U152 atm is. Excuse me if i expressed myself not clear enough.
If i read it right you tested negative for all subclade of U152 ?

Negative? Why?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So, the only Indo-European haplogroup was R1a? If R1b-U152 is pre-indoeuropean could be Ligurian, Etruscan or Rhaetian.

No, I didn't say that. I think I misspoke actually. I am sure indo europeans spread r1b, but europe was probably mainly r1b already by the time they came.

[Armatus]

Negative? Why?

Are you L2- Z56- Z192- Z36- or did you only test U152+ ?

[Sizzo]

Are you L2- Z56- Z192- Z36- or did you only test U152+ ?

Well, I have done a test with 23andMe: my paternal line is R1b1b2a1a2d* (old label) and the maternal one H1m.

[Sizzo]

Are you L2- Z56- Z192- Z36- or did you only test U152+ ?

Or you say the asterisk (R1b1b2a1a2d*) means fake U152?

[Damião de Góis]

Who are the responsibles of my haplogroup's spread, exactly?

It's difficult to know given that R1b has been in Europe for 17000 years.

[Styrian Mujo]

This is from Eupedia.
Many Eastern Gaulish tribes (e.g. Sequani. Aedui) allied themselves to Julius Caesar during the Conquest of Gaul. In fact they had long had good relations with Rome and were the ones who requested Caesar's assistance to fight other tribes. Before Caesar's time the Aedui had attached themselves to the Romans, and were honoured with the title of brothers and kinsmen of the Roman people. Perhaps it is no wonder that the Romans had the hardest time defeating the tribes closest to them, the Suebi and the Belgae.

This also explains why the Romans called the Suebi and other Celts of modern south-west Germany the "Germani". The Latin Germani comes from germanus (from germen, "seed" or "offshoot"). The term was used to mean that they were the genuine Celts (descendants of the Hallstatt and La Tène Celts), as opposed to the other tribes of Gaul. Or it meant that they, Romans, descended from the same "seed" as these Germani from the Black Forest, or saw each others as offshoots of the same tribe.

The Roman provinces of Germania match exactly the regions where R1b-S28 has the highest frequency, around modern Belgium (Germania Inferior), and around the Baden-Württemberg (Germania Superior).

This may be why the name Germanicus was used in the Rome aristocracy, like for Emperors Caligula (Germanicus Julius Caesar) and Claudius (Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus). It may have been a reference to the Roman's origins in Germania. In any case they didn't think of these Germani as contemptible or inferior, otherwise they would not have named members of the imperial family after them. It was closer to an honorific title.

[Styrian Mujo]

This is also from eupedia
J2a's strong presence in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire,then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of J2 in the peninsula.

[Armatus]

Or you say the asterisk (R1b1b2a1a2d*) means fake U152?

No, i'm not familiar with 23andMe and their testing methods and haplotrees/snps. I heard people saying that they don't test all subclades. And a result like Z36+ would make it very likely that you're line is Hallstatt Celtic. I'm only confused by the *.

[Armatus]

It's difficult to know given that R1b has been in Europe for 17000 years.

Didn't you mean 7000 years ? And Caucasus isn't really europe for me, it's more like 5000 years in Central and Western Europe.

[Sizzo]

No, i'm not familiar with 23andMe and their testing methods and haplotrees/snps. I heard people saying that they don't test all subclades. And a result like Z36+ would make it very likely that you're line is Hallstatt Celtic. I'm only confused by the *.

Yes, Artek says I'm likely Alpine Celt, but I didn't understand well the asterisk question, I'm not an expert of genetics.

[Artek]

It's difficult to know given that R1b has been in Europe for 17000 years.
How do we know it? It seems to be introduced in Neolithic, basing on relatively recent findings(vel R1b Bell Beaker) -roughly the same timeframe as R1a.


Yes, Artek says I'm likely Alpine Celt, but I don't understood well the asterisk question, I'm not an expert of genetics.
Asterisk means that you are either tested negative to the SNPs under the U152 (unlikely) or that you are not tested to anything under U152(that's more likely). Or the third case - you are tested negative for a part of certain SNPs, while other downstream SNPs remain untested due to the lower resolution of test (that's why it still looks like zero).

In 99,8% of cases people don't belong only to the popular ancestral SNP (like U106* U152*, R1a-Z280* etc) but they are positive to something downstream. Even if you are really negative to everything under U152, it can change over time. About two or three years ago I was just Z280*, because downstream SNPs were not discovered yet.

[Sizzo]

How do we know it? It seems to be introduced in Neolithic, basing on relatively recent findings(vel R1b Bell Beaker) -roughly the same timeframe as R1a.

Hey, could you explain here the asterisk meaning?

[Hevo]

No, i'm not familiar with 23andMe and their testing methods and haplotrees/snps. I heard people saying that they don't test all subclades. And a result like Z36+ would make it very likely that you're line is Hallstatt Celtic. I'm only confused by the *.

He is probably negative for L2(R1b1b2a1a2d3) so my guess it would be either Z56,Z192 or Z36.

[papa diddy pop]

No, i'm not familiar with 23andMe and their testing methods and haplotrees/snps. I heard people saying that they don't test all subclades. And a result like Z36+ would make it very likely that you're line is Hallstatt Celtic. I'm only confused by the *.

you have here a true U152 :cool: I have tested negative to all the u152 sublcade on geno 2.0

[Damião de Góis]

Didn't you mean 7000 years ? And Caucasus isn't really europe for me, it's more like 5000 years in Central and Western Europe.


How do we know it? It seems to be introduced in Neolithic, basing on relatively recent findings(vel R1b Bell Beaker) -roughly the same timeframe as R1a.

I'm just saying the number that it's on 23andme for my own results:

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i55btx.jpg

[Artek]

I'm just saying the number that it's on 23andme for my own results
That's the general age of R1b mutation as a whole, that should be officially written as an R1b*(xR1b1) or something:)


you have here a true U152 :cool: I have tested negative to all the u152 sublcade on geno 2.0
Geno omits many SNPs, just saying.

[papa diddy pop]

That's the general age of R1b mutation as a whole, that should be officially written as an R1b*(xR1b1) or something:)


Geno omits many SNPs, just saying.

like what (for u152 dowstream) ?

[Sizzo]

Asterisk means that you are either tested negative to the SNPs under the U152 (unlikely) or that you are not tested to anything under U152(that's more likely). Or the third case - you are tested negative for a part of certain SNPs, while other downstream SNPs remain untested due to the lower resolution of test (that's why it still looks like zero).

In 99,8% of cases people don't belong only to the popular ancestral SNP (like U106* U152*, R1a-Z280* etc) but they are positive to something downstream. Even if you are really negative to everything under U152, it can change over time. About two or three years ago I was just Z280*, because downstream SNPs were not discovered yet.

How can I clarify the situation? Good explanation, thanks.

[Artek]

like what (for u152 dowstream) ?
It generally omits a great deal of SNPs as it's seen in the case of the R1a.

And I don't have a reasons to think otherwise in case of any other haplogroup. That's only Geno, not an YFull...

Show me that you are negative to everything after YFull ;D

[papa diddy pop]

It generally omits a great deal of SNPs as it's seen in the case of the R1a.

And I don't have a reasons to think otherwise in case of any other haplogroup. That's only Geno, not an YFull

all of the discovered downstream of U152 are in geno 2.0 for the moment,only few downstream of downstream are missing .

[Artek]

all of the discovered downstream of U152 are in geno 2.0 for the moment,only few downstream of downstream are missing .
So maybe you are really in this elite, below-percent team. But let's wait for an YFull, anyway.

[papa diddy pop]

So maybe you are really in this elite, below-percent team. But let's wait for an YFull, anyway.

I don't think so,maybe just for the moment.

France is still a mystery genetically wise,we still have a lot more things to know about, especially about Y-dna since not many research has been done on this subject or ancient ones are outdated since they don't analyse many snps .

[Thor2009]

I'm just curious about how this haplogroup ended up in England. I'm U152+ and my paternal lineage goes back to Kent. Actually, I'm of the L20+ subclade, which has an even weirder distribution, being found as far as Norway.

[Sizzo]

I'm just curious about how this haplogroup ended up in England. I'm U152+ and my paternal lineage goes back to Kent. Actually, I'm of the L20+ subclade, which has an even weirder distribution, being found as far as Norway.

According to Ancestry Finder of 23andMe I've 1.6% Italy and 0.7% UK. Maybe you are a Britalian, ask Uhtred.

[Jackson]

I'm just curious about how this haplogroup ended up in England. I'm U152+ and my paternal lineage goes back to Kent. Actually, I'm of the L20+ subclade, which has an even weirder distribution, being found as far as Norway.

It's probably been present here since the iron age at least i would have thought, although i imagine the biggest contributors would be Belgic tribes. Although smaller amounts may have come with some Frankish immigration later on, or who knows even later that than in some cases. But yeah it's distributed pretty well along eastern Gaul and south-western Germany and has smaller representations in the British Isles and more northern areas, although in England it peaks along areas of the south coast, so more likely a remnant of Belgic tribes that settled here in the late pre-Roman Iron Age, but theoretically it could have a large number of origins. Although yeah, it's fairly common in Kent as things are in the British Isles.

[Solothurn]

I am a U152 with Y ancestry from close to Hadrian's wall in England.

Until recently my STR group was U152*, but a 60/67 match did the BigY at FTDNA and he came in with a 'new' SNP: S20550. I have ordered it from Yseq.net and await the result. Two others have S20550+ from BritainsDNA and two more from the Netherlands from GoNL. Sadly no STRs from these so cannot compare to mine.

If I come in S20550- I won't be best pleased as I have been U152* for too long :picard1:

[Solothurn]

I forgot to say S20550 is downstream of Z193/PF6658.

I did Geno 2.0 and was found to be Z193-, as were most. Geno 2.0 failed on this, but I have heard Z193 is very unstable so many chips could also possibly fail!

[Risen Ghost of Coon]

Hey man what about R1a1b1c1e13erw34rasefjashdfkhasdjkfhasjkdfhaksjdfh ajksdfh? Anyone think this one could have something to do with some badasses?

[Solothurn]

Result in :)

S20550+++

So any other U152* that maxed out on all other SNP tests may want to give it a shot.

Then again there are literally many new SNPs now thanks to FullY and BigY testing options!

It will be available at FTDNA very soon :thumb001:




I am a U152 with Y ancestry from close to Hadrian's wall in England.

Until recently my STR group was U152*, but a 60/67 match did the BigY at FTDNA and he came in with a 'new' SNP: S20550. I have ordered it from Yseq.net and await the result. Two others have S20550+ from BritainsDNA and two more from the Netherlands from GoNL. Sadly no STRs from these so cannot compare to mine.

If I come in S20550- I won't be best pleased as I have been U152* for too long :picard1: