Which country was most impacted by Arabization, genetically?

[Sikeliot]

1) Egypt
2) Morocco
3) Lebanon
4) Syria
5) Iraq

?

By that I mean which ones have the most Arab genetic ancestry, and which have the most cultural?

[Shah-Jehan]

Iraq...

[Mani]

Iraq.

[Smeagol]

Egypt=not affected at all.
Morocco=not affected at all.
Lebanon=affected to a degree.
Syria=basically Arabs now.
Iraq=population completely changed.

[Sikeliot]

Egypt=not affected at all.
Morocco=not affected at all.

But these two were affected by the slave trade.

Northern Iraq are genetically Arabized Assyrians, but southern Iraq is changed a lot I have heard.

[KrashNick]

Egypt=not affected at all.


Are you sure ??

Actually Modern Egyptians are Arabs

[Shah-Jehan]

Are you sure ??

Actually Modern Egyptians are Arabs
Linguistically Arabized people...

[Smeagol]

Are you sure ??

Actually Modern Egyptians are Arabs

Egyptians were affected significantly by Sub-Saharan slaves, but the Arabs themselves had no impact.

[Smeagol]

But these two were affected by the slave trade.

Yes.

[MarkyMark]

Syria has changed a lot too. The pre-Arab inhabitants was what is now known as the Syriac people. The Syriac people are now only part of the Maronites, all of the Syriac Orthodox Christians, all of the Syriac catholic Christians, and all of the protestants. Now Arabs are Syria. The Sunnis, Shiites, Alawis, Greek Orthodox, and Melkite people are all Arabs and make up more than 90% of the country. However those Arabs are mixed with the Byzantine Greeks, so they are not fully Arab.

[Shah-Jehan]

Syria has changed a lot too. The pre-Arab inhabitants was what is now known as the Syriac people. The Syriac people are now only part of the Maronites, all of the Syriac Orthodox Christians, all of the Syriac catholic Christians, and all of the protestants. Now Arabs are Syria. The Sunnis, Shiites, Alawis, Greek Orthodox, and Melkite people are all Arabs and make up more than 90% of the country. However those Arabs are mixed with the Byzantine Greeks, so they are not fully Arab.
None of what you said involves anything related to genetics, which this thread is about...

[Han Cholo]

Syria has changed a lot too. The pre-Arab inhabitants was what is now known as the Syriac people. The Syriac people are now only part of the Maronites, all of the Syriac Orthodox Christians, all of the Syriac catholic Christians, and all of the protestants. Now Arabs are Syria. The Sunnis, Shiites, Alawis, Greek Orthodox, and Melkite people are all Arabs and make up more than 90% of the country. However those Arabs are mixed with the Byzantine Greeks, so they are not fully Arab.

Any proof of this? Or is it just funny speak to make modern peoples somehow more legitimate than others?

[Dombra]

Iraq

[MarkyMark]

None of what you said involves anything related to genetics, which this thread is about...

It is relevant because they are genetically Arabs and distinct from the original Syrians.

[Han Cholo]

It is relevant because they are genetically Arabs and distinct from the original Syrians.

The least Arab looking Syrians are the Alawites. Not that any of the others look truly Arab anyway.

[Shah-Jehan]

It is relevant because they are genetically Arabs and distinct from the original Syrians.

So, the original inhabitants of Syria were Nordic warriors lost in the middle-east? Have any proof of what you claimed?

[StonyArabia]

Iraq and Jordan. Jordan was always an extension of Arabia though.

[MarkyMark]

Any proof of this? Or is it just funny speak to make modern peoples somehow more legitimate than others?

It really annoys me to see non-Syrians like you speak as if you know more about syria than people from Syria. Even Alberta agrees with me that the second group of people I listed are Arabs and the others aren't. Anyways for reference read
-Chapter 25 of Geirge's Roux's ancient Iraq. Specifically the section called "The Hellenistic Period".
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassanids
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Christianity#Names_and_ethnicity

The use of the word Syriac (which originally referred to the Syrian language, a dialect of Middle Aramaic which arose in Assyria) instead of Syrian became common after the establishment of the modern nation of Syria after World War I. The word 'Syrian' has become ambiguous in English since it can refer now to a citizen of Syria regardless of ethnicity. In Arabic, however, the word for a 'citizen of Syria' has a different form (سوري sūrī) from the traditional word for an ethnic Syrian (سُرياني suryānī).

Also why do you genius's think the Syriac christians changed their name from Syrian to Syriac? Why do you think all the Arabs I listed called themselves Al-Shami before Arab nationalism?

If you can't answer or respond to any of this with historical sources don't even bother arguing, because I've had enough of people spreading lies about the Syrian name.

[WOOHP]

Iraq.
Assyrian/Chaldean Iraqis look very different in comparision with the real Arabic Iraqis. That's what I've been noticing here(big Iraqi community).

[MarkyMark]

So, the original inhabitants of Syria were Nordic warriors lost in the middle-east? Have any proof of what you claimed?

Nope they were a mixture of Northwestern Semites, Notheastern Semites and Anatolian Indo-Europeans.

[MarkyMark]

The least Arab looking Syrians are the Alawites. Not that any of the others look truly Arab anyway.

They intermarried with Norman Crusaders and Greeks.

[MarkyMark]

You think these Syrian government soldiers don't look Arab?
WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIZAsQrUFkE&bpctr=1382913140

[StonyArabia]

Iraq.
Assyrian/Chaldean Iraqis look very different in comparision with the real Arabic Iraqis.

Iraqi Arabs belong to well known Arabian tribes: Banu Lam, Muntafaq, Bani Tamim, Banu Kaab, Mutar, Dawaser, Banu Truf and Shammar, and Rawallah. Each of these tribes function as ethnicity and nation in it's own right. They even have their own tribal flags for example.

[Sikeliot]

Iraq and Jordan. Jordan was always an extension of Arabia though.

I thought the original people were Edomites, who would have been like Phoenicians and Jews.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Are you sure ??

Actually Modern Egyptians are Arabs

Egyptians lack the J haplogroups that Arabs have.

J haplogroup in Egypt seems to go back mostly to Afro-Asiatic expansion rather than to Arab expansion.

[Han Cholo]

It really annoys me to see non-Syrians like you speak as if you know more about syria than people from Syria. Even Alberta agrees with me that the second group of people I listed are Arabs and the others aren't. Anyways for reference read
-Chapter 25 of Geirge's Roux's ancient Iraq. Specifically the section called "The Hellenistic Period".
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassanids
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Christianity#Names_and_ethnicity


Also why do you genius's think the Syriac christians changed their name from Syrian to Syriac? Why do you think all the Arabs I listed called themselves Al-Shami before Arab nationalism?

If you can't answer or respond to any of this with historical sources don't even bother arguing, because I've had enough of people spreading lies about the Syrian name.

OK, Christians are ancient Syriacs and Assyrians while the rest are a bunch of Greeks and Saudis. Are you happy now? Have fun with your mental "Syrian identity" and Crusader myths.

And lol at using "Alberta opinion" as a validation of truth as if he was a credible scholar. No one here gives a fuck about obscure historical sources, show some autosomal DNA charts and then we can discuss something.

[MarkyMark]

OK, Christians are ancient Syriacs and Assyrians while the rest are a bunch of Greeks and Saudis. Are you happy now? Have fun with your mental "Syrian identity" and Crusader myths.

And lol at using "Alberta opinion" as a validation of truth as if he was a credible scholar. No one here gives a fuck about obscure historical sources, show some autosomal DNA charts and then we can discuss something.

I was merely using the opinion of a Syrian citizen to counter that of a non-syrian. Anyways charts indicate that Ashkenazi Jews plot closely to Greeks. Are Ashkenazi Jews the descendant of the ancient Greeks? Not even close. Therefore I don't believe in charts to indicate exact origins.

[YeshAtid]

. Anyways charts indicate that Ashkenazi Jews plot closely to Greeks. Are Ashkenazi Jews the descendant of the ancient Greeks? Not even close. Therefore I don't believe in charts to indicate exact origins.

They have similar mixed components

[StonyArabia]

And lol at using "Alberta opinion" as a validation of truth as if he was a credible scholar. No one here gives a fuck about obscure historical sources, show some autosomal DNA charts and then we can discuss something.

ifty-nine dental non-metric traits were scored using Arizona State University Dental Anthropology System on a sample of teeth from 350 human skeletons excavated at three sites in the lower middle Euphrates valley. The dataset was divided into six chronological subsets: Early Bronze Age, Middle Bronze Age, Early Iron Age with Neo-Assyrian period, Classical/Late Antiquity, Early Islamic (Umayyad and Abbasid) period and Modern period. The matrix of Mean Measure of Divergence values exhibited temporal homogeneity of the sample with only dental non-metric trait scores in the Modern subset differing significantly from most other subsets. Such a result suggests that no major gene flow occurred in the middle Euphrates valley between the 3rd millennium BCE and the early 2nd millennium CE. Only after the Mongolian invasion and large depopulation of northern Mesopotamia in the 13th century CE a major population change occurred when the area was taken over in the 17th century by Bedouin tribes from the Arabian Peninsula.

This in Eastern Syria and Iraq.

[Han Cholo]

I was merely using the opinion of a Syrian citizen to counter that of a non-syrian. Anyways charts indicate that Ashkenazi Jews plot closely to Greeks. Are Ashkenazi Jews the descendant of the ancient Greeks? Not even close. Therefore I don't believe in charts to indicate exact origins.

They cluster close to Greeks because they are a mix of Levantines and Central Euros, which gives them a position close to Greece (but still, the components they have are still quite different). Syrians just cluster in the Levant, with Lebanon and Palestine. Assigning ancient ethnicities (which probably only went language shifts) is as retarded as trying to associate certain sectors of modern Turks with Hittites, Armenians, Hurrians or be it whatever.

[MarkyMark]

They have similar mixed components

If you mean Semites+Indo-Europeans, then yes. But the Syriacs are N.W. Semites+N.E. Semites+Anatolian I.E., while the Syrian Arabs are Southern Semites+Central Semites+Greek I.E.

Ultimately all Levantines are mixed people.

[Maleficent]

The answer is Iraq. Some people in this thread have no idea heat they're talking about; they know who they are.....

[StonyArabia]

Iraqi Arabs are basically the same as Yemenite Jews genetically that should be good evidence that they are not an Arabized population. This is also true of many of the Arabian tribes especially in Southeastern Syria.

[Han Cholo]

If you mean Semites+Indo-Europeans, then yes. But the Syriacs are N.W. Semites+N.E. Semites+Anatolian I.E., while the Syrian Arabs are Southern Semites+Central Semites+Greek I.E.

Ultimately all Levantines are mixed people.

Linguistic associations that don't necessarily follow genetics. Are you going to say Syrians descend from Altaic Ottomans as well?

[YeshAtid]

If you mean Semites+Indo-Europeans, then yes. But the Syriacs are N.W. Semites+N.E. Semites+Anatolian I.E., while the Syrian Arabs are Southern Semites+Central Semites+Greek I.E.

Ultimately all Levantines are mixed people.
I was referring to Greeks and Jews but I agree

[MarkyMark]

They cluster close to Greeks because they are a mix of Levantines and Central Euros, which gives them a position close to Greece (but still, the components they have are still quite different). Syrians just cluster in the Levant, with Lebanon and Palestine. Assigning ancient ethnicities (which probably only went language shifts) is as retarded as trying to associate certain sectors of modern Turks with Hittites, Armenians, Hurrians or be it whatever.

The ancient pre-arab ethnicities of syria are dead and around the 6th century BC culminated in to the ethnic groups known as Syrians by the Greeks. I never said you can attribute Alawites to the Hittites or Maronites to the Phoenicians and so on. I am saying there are distinct mixes of people inhabiting Syria.

[Han Cholo]

The ancient pre-arab ethnicities of syria are dead and around the 6th century BC culminated in to the ethnic groups known as Syrians by the Greeks. I never said you can attribute Alawites to the Hittites or Maronites to the Phoenicians and so on. I am saying there are distinct mixes of people inhabiting Syria.

What you are really saying is that some people are mostly a mix of "original Syrians" (thus making them more legitimate) while others are just a mishmash of foreigners. The reality is that most are actually mostly native with minor other influences.

[MarkyMark]

Linguistic associations that don't necessarily follow genetics. Are you going to say Syrians descend from Altaic Ottomans as well?

Alright then, debunk the fact that Indo-European speakers carried R1a whereas Semitic speakers carried J1 and J2.

[MarkyMark]

What you are really saying is that some people are mostly a mix of "original Syrians" (thus making them more legitimate) while others are just a mishmash of foreigners. The reality is that most are actually mostly native with minor other influences.

Cite your sources.

[Smaug]

Syria and Lebanon nothing at all. Iraq is the most Arabized nation.

[Han Cholo]

Alright then, debunk the fact that Indo-European speakers carried R1a whereas Semitic speakers carried J1 and J2.

How many "Indo-European" Greeks and Anatolians have R1a? :picard2:

[rashka]

Some statues of the people in ancient Elam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Untash_Napirisha_stele_Louvre_Sb12.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Relief_spinner_Louvre_Sb2834.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Elam_cool.jpg

[Han Cholo]

Cite your sources.

One that only talks outside his ass does not have any ground to ask for sources (especially when you were the first one to make spurious claims).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ztxlQ68e19Q/TnC0Z0rW6bI/AAAAAAAAEHc/MQny_v-ygqQ/s1600/pca-caucasus.png

[MarkyMark]

How many "Indo-European" Greeks and Anatolians have R1a? :picard2:

Depends. Around 15% of modern greeks have R1a but there are other haplogroups near non-existent in M.E. countries that exist in Greece such as I. Anyways Greece was mixed with neolithic native inhabitants.

[Mani]

http://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/

[Han Cholo]

Depends. Around 15% of modern greeks have R1a but there are other haplogroups near non-existent in M.E. countries that exist in Greece such as I. Anyways Greece was mixed with neolithic native inhabitants.

If Syrians were a mix of Bizantine Greeks and Arabs, should not their haplogroups (and autosomals) reflect this?

[MarkyMark]

One that only talks outside his ass does not have any ground to ask for sources (especially when you were the first one to make spurious claims).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ztxlQ68e19Q/TnC0Z0rW6bI/AAAAAAAAEHc/MQny_v-ygqQ/s1600/pca-caucasus.png

I don't see Assyrians or greeks on there... Anyways how many actual Greek Orthodox Syrians or Sunni syrians or Syriac Syrians have you seen in real life? How many Syrians in all were ever tested for haplogroups? What is that number compared to the actual number of Syrians(regardless of Arab or Syriac) that exist?

[MarkyMark]

If Syrians were a mix of Bizantine Greeks and Arabs, should not their haplogroups (and autosomals) reflect this?

Yes.

[StonyArabia]

What you are really saying is that some people are mostly a mix of "original Syrians" (thus making them more legitimate) while others are just a mishmash of foreigners. The reality is that most are actually mostly native with minor other influences.

Southeastern Syrians are of Arabian stock especially the Shammar, Rawallah, and the Aqidiat which is branch of the Bani Tamim and all of them have relatives across into Iraq. For example the Al-Jarba clan of the Shammar is mostly over cross into Syria and Iraq. Well the Jebali clan(mine)of Shammar extend into Saudi Arabia directly from Mosul and into Syria's Deir Zor province. As well the powerful Anizah tribe.

Stop denying our Arabian ancestry.

[WOOHP]

Syria and Lebanon nothing at all. Iraq is the most Arabized nation.

Except for the Assyrians living there I guess.

[Han Cholo]

I don't see Assyrians or greeks on there... Anyways how many actual Greek Orthodox Syrians or Sunni syrians or Syriac Syrians have you seen in real life? How many Syrians in all were ever tested for haplogroups? What is that number compared to the actual number of Syrians(regardless of Arab or Syriac) that exist?

OK, so knowing lots of Greek Orthodox Syrians, SUnni Syrians and Syriac Syrians made you get the scientific conclusion some were "pure ancient Assyrians" and some others a "Greeko-Saudi" mix. Again without backing, other than being a popular person amongst the Syrian community in whatever western country you live.

[MarkyMark]

Southeastern Syrians are of Arabian stock especially the Shammar, Rawallah, and the Aqidiat which is branch of the Bani Tamim and all of them have relatives across into Iraq. For example the Al-Jarba clan of the Shammar is mostly over cross into Syria and Iraq. Well the Jebali clan of Shammar extend into Saudi Arabia directly from Mosul and into Syria's Deir Zor province. As well the powerful Anizah tribe.

Yes, and what of the Ghassanids? Tell Hassad all about them.
As a true Arab does the man at 1:19 look Arab?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkCNuKCBmrQ&t=1m19s

[MarkyMark]

OK, so knowing lots of Greek Orthodox Syrians, SUnni Syrians and Syriac Syrians made you get the scientific conclusion some were "pure ancient Assyrians" and some others a "Greeko-Saudi" mix.

The anthropological results are indicative of the genetic results.

[Han Cholo]

Either way, "Arabic"-like admixture is very old in the Levant. It predates Islam by a lot. SouthWest Asian component has always existed there before Arabization. Levantines have never looked like Georgians or Abkhazians.

[MarkyMark]

http://www.iajgs.org/jgscv/pdf/GG%20Understanding%20Results%20Handout.pdf

Oh wait, what's this: http://www.iajgs.org/jgscv/pdf/GG%20Understanding%20Results%20Handout.pdf

Y-DNA matches only go back 500 years or more.

[Han Cholo]

The anthropological results are indicative of the genetic results.

I'm sure you could deduce these anthropological results easy, in a flawless scientific method just by watching people.

[Han Cholo]

Do you people really think a Saudi/Greek mix would give results that are 41% Caucasus (when this component is far smaller in Saudis), 10% mediterranean (which is far higher in greeks)?

http://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/

Just scroll down to Syria and compare to Greeks and Saudis, there is no possible way a mix of the 2 would give a "Syrian" result.

[StonyArabia]

Yes, and what of the Ghassanids? Tell Hassad all about them.
As a true Arab does the man at 1:19 look Arab?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkCNuKCBmrQ&t=1m19s

The Ghassanid were a South Arabian tribe that had migrated from Yemen. This was due to the destruction of the Marib Dam which had send them seeking refuge. The Ghassanid then settled and conquered the area of Syria and established themselves as the elite due to the adoption of Christianity and even allying with the Byzantines. They became a proxy of the Byzantines against the Persians whom had the Lakhmids. The Ghassanid influence can be seen in the culture and art in Syria. Also the Ghassanids were never Islamized, and got assimilated into the local Christian population. This was not true of the Lakhmids who were Islamized by their own will, and the same is true of the Nabateans. The Nabatans who had resented the Ghassanids since they reduced their influence completely to nothing.

The man does indeed look Arabian.

[Genn]

What are people basing their opinions on with respect to Iraq? Phenotype and anecdotal evidence, or genetic studies? If it's the latter, I'd like to read more about it and would appreciate some links.

[MarkyMark]

Do you people really think a Saudi/Greek mix would give results that are 41% Caucasus (when this component is far smaller in Saudis), 10% mediterranean (which is far higher in greeks)?

http://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/

Just scroll down to Syria and compare to Greeks and Saudis, there is no possible way a mix of the 2 would give a "Syrian" result.

Except that the Iraqi Arabs, who are undeniably Arab in ancestry(ask Alberta all about that) are 38% "Caucasus".

[Sikeliot]

Except that the Iraqi Arabs, who are undeniably Arab in ancestry(ask Alberta all about that) are 38% "Caucasus".

Then clearly they are not all Arab in ancestry..

[MarkyMark]

Then clearly they are not all Arab in ancestry..

They are Arab.

[eeroli]

Africa Halleluja.

[StonyArabia]

Then clearly they are not all Arab in ancestry..


If you are speaking about Iraqis it depends on the geographic location. Northern Iraqi Arabs are Arabized Assyrians their dialect is heavily influenced by Aramaic and Assyrian. Southern Iraqis are ethnic Arabians and including those in the West.

[MarkyMark]

There is some very weird data that makes me doubt the legitimacy of the link provided. For example Finns having Southwest Asian ancestry, Lithuanians being as much Mediterranean as Turks, or even designating Baloch as a standard of some sort when by the looks of it Balochs are a mixture of many different people. I understand their method of finding certain trends and them designating the name as where it peaks but it doesn't seem like this method precisely indicates the actual origins of people as I've never heard of Saudis making it all the way up to Finland. Lol.

[Han Cholo]

Except that the Iraqi Arabs, who are undeniably Arab in ancestry(ask Alberta all about that) are 38% "Caucasus".

if they are 38% Caucasus then they are not full Arabs (should not be obvious?!?). It's funny how you put Alberta credibility over a genetic test LOLOL get lost. Iraqi Arabs are likely a mix of Saudis and Iranians, despite whatever shit Alberta or you claim.

[Han Cholo]

There is some very weird data that makes me doubt the legitimacy of the link provided. For example Finns having Southwest Asian ancestry, Lithuanians being as much Mediterranean as Turks, or even designating Baloch as a standard of some sort when by the looks of it Balochs are a mixture of many different people. I understand their method of finding certain trends and them designating the name as where it peaks but it doesn't seem like this method precisely indicates the actual origins of people as I've never heard of Saudis making it all the way up to Finland. Lol.

Oh yes man, your random associations of mixed arab/greeks vs. ancient assyrians towards religious groups are surely far more serious and legitimate than this.

[MarkyMark]

Oh yes man, your random associations of mixed arab/greeks vs. ancient assyrians towards religious groups are surely far more serious and legitimate than this.

Its not random at all because these are the names in which we have always designated ourselves as prior to Arab nationalism. What is really random is why they used a mixed ethnic group such as the Balochs for a reference in determining genetic input! Its laughable and absurd.

[Han Cholo]

Its not random at all because these are the names in which we have always designated ourselves as prior to Arab nationalism. What is really random is why they used a mixed ethnic group such as the Balochs for a reference in determining genetic input! Its laughable and absurd.

As absurd as is using Sardinians (also mixed) for Mediterranean, Georgians (also mixed) for Caucasus, Norwegians (also mixed) for North Euro and Yemeni Jews (also mixed) for SouthWest Asian. Were you seriously that stupid to believe those reference populations were some magical insulated groups where no admixture ever happened? There's a reason why these tests are labeled as comparative.

[Swearengen]

what were iraqis prior to arabization? I thought they were always arabs.

[Gaston]

Iraq would be number one. Morocco the least: none actually but the Arabs introduced trans-Saharan slavery which messed up some regions there with high recent SSA influence.


But not all Iraqi "arabs" cluster with Arabians: some cluster close to Assyrians/Mandeans in West Eurasia plots.

[Twistedmind]

Egyptians were affected significantly by Sub-Saharan slaves, but the Arabs themselves had no impact.

:icon_ask::no:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/01/ethioDOD.png

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/01/ethioDOD2.png

[Yuffayur]

Iraq

[Yuffayur]

Iraq would be number one. Morocco the least: none actually but the Arabs introduced trans-Saharan slavery which messed up some regions there with high recent SSA influence.


But not all Iraqi "arabs" cluster with Arabians: some cluster close to Assyrians/Mandeans in West Eurasia plots.

Ces pédés d'arabe ils ont négrifier notre maghreb

[Yuffayur]

what were iraqis prior to arabization? I thought they were always arabs.

Assyrians, mesopotamians and kurds

[Gaston]

:icon_ask::no:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/01/ethioDOD.png

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/01/ethioDOD2.png

The Southwest Asian component can be found even in Northernmost Europe and in deep Africa: do they have Arab ancestry too there?

[Twistedmind]

The Southwest Asian component can be found even in Northernmost Europe and in deep Africa: do they have Arab ancestry too there?
In Egypt it is main component. In Europe it does not exceed 10% aynwhere. Not realy comparable case. In Greece its for example arround 8-9 %. In their neigbourghood in Bulgaria it is like 3%. Further you go it goes far less.
Anyway, my point was not to say they are mostly of Arab origin, but Arabs for sure did influence Egyptian gene pool

[Smeagol]

:icon_ask::no:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/01/ethioDOD.png

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/01/ethioDOD2.png

What's your point? All the southwest Asian in Egyptians is from pre-dynastic times, the East African is partly from pre-dynastic times, and partly recent, and the west African is all recent.

[Twistedmind]

All the southwest Asian in Egyptians is from pre-dynastic times, the East African is partly from pre-dynastic times, and partly recent,

Could you prove it?

[Smeagol]

Could you prove it?

Southern Egyptians Y Chromomses are mainly native to Africa, both sub and supra Saharan. This makes a total of 80.3% definitively African (mostly Caucasoid North African) non-Arab ancestry in the upper Egypt region. Y chromosomes possibly attributable to Arab males are in the minority in this area. A rough estimate (since no women invaded Egypt) is that about 5% or less of this population are from non dynastic Egyptian peoples, and not all of these would be Arabs.

Northern Egyptians are a bit more cosmopolitan in their ancestry 64.8% indigenous African. About 20% of the Y chromosomes are near Eastern in origin, and 10.5 % are R Y chromosomes. However, some of these near eastern and European Y chromosomes show an ancient entry to Africa (G, K2, R1, R1b are 8,000 BP and older) and any historical contribution from foreign men is more likely to be in the 15% area. Divided by two (no recent female contribution to speak of). This makes non-dynastic Egyptian population around the 7% mark in Lower Egypt; and only some of this is Arab.

As for the maternal inheritance; this is more varied. From a study at Gurna (of modern upper Egyptians):

H 14.7%, I 5.9%, J 5.9%, L1a 11.7%, L1e 5.9%, L2a 2.9%, M1 17.6%, N1b 8.8%, T 5.9%, U 8.8% U3 2.9%, U4 5.9% ,L3*(a) 5.9%, L3*(b) 2.9%, Other 2.9%.

Of these, the L haplotypes are typically sub Saharan (23.7%), M1 and U are ancient Eurasian, present at least 30,000 years and many of the other Eurasian haplotypes have been found in 12,000 year old bones in Morocco. The N an I are possibly attributable to Arab ancestry, about 15% non-Arab in upper Egypt. But still, most of that would easily be attributable to the Neolithic input from Asia- and very little of this would be attributable to Arabs

There doesn’t seem to be majority ‘Arab’ genetic component to the Egyptian DNA pool, 20% maximum. And a lot of the non African DNA is traceable to the Neolithic farming expansion that swept across North Africa, so it would be a lot lower in reality.

The only people who really made a genetic impact since dynastic times have been Sub-Saharans.

[Twistedmind]

Southern Egyptians Y Chromomses are mainly native to Africa, both sub and supra Saharan. This makes a total of 80.3% definitively African (mostly Caucasoid North African) non-Arab ancestry in the upper Egypt region. Y chromosomes possibly attributable to Arab males are in the minority in this area. A rough estimate (since no women invaded Egypt) is that about 5% or less of this population are from non dynastic Egyptian peoples, and not all of these would be Arabs.

Northern Egyptians are a bit more cosmopolitan in their ancestry 64.8% indigenous African. About 20% of the Y chromosomes are near Eastern in origin, and 10.5 % are R Y chromosomes. However, some of these near eastern and European Y chromosomes show an ancient entry to Africa (G, K2, R1, R1b are 8,000 BP and older) and any historical contribution from foreign men is more likely to be in the 15% area. Divided by two (no recent female contribution to speak of). This makes non-dynastic Egyptian population around the 7% mark in Lower Egypt; and only some of this is Arab.

As for the maternal inheritance; this is more varied. From a study at Gurna (of modern upper Egyptians):

H 14.7%, I 5.9%, J 5.9%, L1a 11.7%, L1e 5.9%, L2a 2.9%, M1 17.6%, N1b 8.8%, T 5.9%, U 8.8% U3 2.9%, U4 5.9% ,L3*(a) 5.9%, L3*(b) 2.9%, Other 2.9%.

Of these, the L haplotypes are typically sub Saharan (23.7%), M1 and U are ancient Eurasian, present at least 30,000 years and many of the other Eurasian haplotypes have been found in 12,000 year old bones in Morocco. The N an I are possibly attributable to Arab ancestry, about 15% non-Arab in upper Egypt. But still, most of that would easily be attributable to the Neolithic input from Asia- and very little of this would be attributable to Arabs

There doesn’t seem to be majority ‘Arab’ genetic component to the Egyptian DNA pool, 20% maximum. And a lot of the non African DNA is traceable to the Neolithic farming expansion that swept across North Africa, so it would be a lot lower in reality.

Don't you know Y_DNA is hardly relevant for wht are we talking?

[Elms]

what were iraqis prior to arabization? I thought they were always arabs.

Simplified History of Mesopotamia:
Sumerians and Akkadians > Assyrians and Babylonians > Assyrians and Arabized Assyrians and Babylonians --- mongol massacre > Assyrians, Mandeans, Iraqi Jews(all three descendants of the predecessors), Northern Iraqi Arabs(native, but mixed with Arabian genes a lot now), The rest of the Arabs(majority) are Arabians invaders from the Arabian Peninsula, and Kurds, who are invaders from the Zagros Mountains in Iran and a little of central-eastern Iraq.

So basically, the country is mostly invaders now. (most Arabs and Kurds)

[Smeagol]

Don't you know Y_DNA is hardly relevant for wht are we talking?

Of course it is relevant. The Egyptian Y-DNA is mostly native to North Africa, and the non-North African DNA is traceable to the Neolithic farming expansion. Do you have any evidence that the Arabs had any significant influence on Egyptian genetics? What do you think the Egyptians were before the Muslim conquest?

[MarkyMark]

Simplified History of Mesopotamia:
Sumerians and Akkadians > Assyrians and Babylonians > Assyrians and Arabized Assyrians and Babylonians --- mongol massacre > Assyrians, Mandeans, Iraqi Jews(all three descendants of the predecessors), Northern Iraqi Arabs(native, but mixed with Arabian genes a lot now), The rest of the Arabs(majority) are Arabians invaders from the Arabian Peninsula, and Kurds, who are invaders from the Zagros Mountains in Iran and a little of central-eastern Iraq.

So basically, the country is mostly invaders now. (most Arabs and Kurds)

Upvote for historical accuracy.

[Twistedmind]

Of course it is relevant. The Egyptian Y-DNA is mostly native to North Africa, and the non-North African DNA is traceable to the Neolithic farming expansion. Do you have any evidence that the Arabs had any significant influence on Egyptian genetics? What do you think the Egyptians were before the Muslim conquest?

You are aware that Y chromosome contains few genes, and Autosomes contain few milion? Y_DNA is good for tracing of ancient migrations, but for exampel Englishman with R1a is closer to Englishman with R1b than Norwegian with R1a?

[Smeagol]

You are aware that Y chromosome contains few genes, and Autosomes contain few milion? Y_DNA is good for tracing of ancient migrations, but for exampel Englishman with R1a is closer to Englishman with R1b than Norwegian with R1a?

I know that, Y-DNA is good for tracing ancient migrations, and most of the Y-DNA in Egypt has been there since pre-dynastic times.

[StonyArabia]

What are people basing their opinions on with respect to Iraq? Phenotype and anecdotal evidence, or genetic studies? If it's the latter, I'd like to read more about it and would appreciate some links.

Look at the phenotype, culture, cousine it's Arabian. Also our tribal names are Arabian and we have kinship relationship to Arabia. As for genetic evidence many Iraqis who took their DNA results appeared genetically the same as Saudis and Yemenite Jews, this was and is confirmed by McDonalds. We are not Arabized or the BS people spread about us that we are not real Arabians. Frankly we are real Arabians and proud of it. The only people who have problem with this are deluded self-hating individuals who say we are Arabized. This is not true of Iraqi Kurds whom seem to cluster with their ethic kin the Persians. As for Iraqi Turkmen yet to be determined. But the Iraqi Arabs are Arabian if people like it or not that's how it is.

[The King, I am]

They impacted all of North Africa, Turned it to the shits, North Africa is now a shit hole













































Cos of the Arabs

[StonyArabia]

So basically, the country is mostly invaders now. (most Arabs and Kurds)

Nonsense, they are not invaders. The Kurds had presence in that region that pre-dates the bible. As well the fact is that the Lakhmids were always present. Also they can not be invader if they repopulated a depopulated land. If you have a problem with it deal with the Mongols not us. This what most scholars themselves would say. Lakhmids were Arabians and vassals of the Persians located in what is now Iraq. an invader is something very different from a migrant. Btw Iraqi Arabs have high specific mtDNA of Arabian origins like R0, J1b which also seem high in Yemenite Jews/ethnic Saudis. I myself have mtDNA J1b.

[Elms]

Nonsense, they are not invaders. The Kurds had presence in that region that pre-dates the bible. As well the fact is that the Lakhmids were always present. Also they can not be invader if they repopulated a depopulated land. If you have a problem with it deal with the Mongols not us. This what most scholars themselves would say. Lakhmids were Arabians and vassals of the Persians located in what is now Iraq. an invader is something very different from a migrant. Btw Iraqi Arabs have high specific mtDNA of Arabian origins like R0, J1b which also seem high in Yemenite Jews/ethnic Saudis. I myself have mtDNA J1b.

You are such a liar, there is not one credible source that even has Kurds in history during that period. And the Lakhmids are not native whether you'd like to believe it or not. The only natives of Mesopotamia are the descendants of Sumerians and Akkadians, the original people.

Arabians did invade Mesopotamia or it wouldn't have became Muslim in the first place. You continued to push yourselves more northern in areas that were still populated so cut the bull crap.

Kurds come from the Zagros mountains and look similar to Persians, not Assyrians, Armenians, or Turks.

Edit: Isn't your mom's invasive people from northern Iraq where Assyrians live lol? Yeah, you guys just repopulated the area. OKAY.

[StonyArabia]

You are such a liar, there is not one credible source that even has Kurds in history during that period. And the Lakhmids are not native whether you'd like to believe it or not. The only natives of Mesopotamia are the descendants of Sumerians and Akkadians, the original people.

I am not a Kurd, but I would respect their presence there. The Sumerians have no descendants and even today people say debate about their ethnic origins, some say they were Turanic like, Dravidian like, Iranic like, and even Arabian like from the region of Dilmun modern day Bahrain. As for Akkadians they themselves were invaders.


Arabians did invade Mesopotamia or it wouldn't have became Muslim in the first place. You continued to push yourselves more northern in areas that were still populated so cut the bull crap.

Is this historical revisionist bull crap. I have already told you that the Lakhmid presence pre-dates Islam, and they followed the religion of Christianity and Zoroastrianism and lived in the area called Mesopotamia did you know that the Persians called it Arabistan, meaning land of the Arabs. Also the reason Mesopotamia switched to Islam was a political move to get the Persians out, and they were already Arabs. Well do you have evidence for that claim. Either way most of the Arabian tribes in the North did not intermix with the locals. Some came because they escaped the Portuguese invasion, and others were brought by the British because of their loyalty to the Ottomans. What is amazing is that some of these Arabian tribes living up there so north yet cluster with Yemenite Jews, you know the reason why adopting endogmy.


Kurds come from the Zagros mountains and look similar to Persians, not Assyrians, Armenians, or Turks.

Well yes they are similar to Persians but this does negate them natives, I am not Kurd, so can't speak in their name really.

[Elms]

I am not a Kurd, but I would respect their presence there. The Sumerians have no descendants and even today people say debate about their ethnic origins, some say they were Turanic like, Dravidian like, Iranic like, and even Arabian like from the region of Dilmun modern day Bahrain. As for Akkadians they themselves were invaders.

It doesn't matter if you respect their presence. The fact of the matter is that they are not native and only became the majority after exterminating the Assyrians and Armenians that lived there. They got displaced from the Zagros Mountains as a result of Turks or Persians(can't remember which). Sumerians and Akkadians are native and mixed to form Assyrians and Babylonians. That is basic Mesopotamian history. And yes, I am well aware that there were a few other groups that ended up mixing with the natives such as the Elamites and Lakhmids, but their genetic impact would be very limited.



Is this historical revisionist bull crap. I have already told you that the Lakhmid presence pre-dates Islam, and they followed the religion of Christianity and Zoroastrianism and lived in the area called Mesopotamia did you know that the Persians called it Arabistan, meaning land of the Arabs. Also the reason Mesopotamia switched to Islam was a political move to get the Persians out, and they were already Arabs. Well do you have evidence for that claim. Either way most of the Arabian tribes in the North did not intermix with the locals. Some came because they escaped the Portuguese invasion, and others were brought by the British because of their loyalty to the Ottomans. What is amazing is that some of these Arabian tribes living up there so north yet cluster with Yemenite Jews, you know the reason why adopting endogmy.

The small minority of Arabs that lived in Mesopotamia prior to Islam didn't transform the area. It was the sweeping invasion of Arabians who brought Islam.

That isn't even true. Non-Muslims were heavily taxed for worshiping other gods, so they abandoned their old religions. Kind of like what happened in the Balkans.

The fact of the matter is that if you weren't trying to be invasive, you would have stayed in the depopulated areas of southern Mesopotamia not go all the way up to all the Assyrians towns and become the majority.

Yes, it is interesting, but it doesn't change the fact that they are invasive and do not belong, especially in the north.



Well yes they are similar to Persians but this does negate them natives, I am not Kurd.

If you had a basic understanding of history, the area was always Assyrian(and the ancestral populations). Every city of northern Mesopotamia have old Assyrian names.

Mosul=Nineveh
Tikrit=Ashur
Arbil=Arbella
Diyarbakir= Amid/Edessa
Kerkuk= Arraphka
Dohuk=Nuhadra

Urmia, Iran is pretty much the only large Assyrian city that wasn't renamed.

Kurds are not native. Only a few are because they kidnapped and raped Assyrian women.

[Smeagol]

The Sumerians have no descendants and even today people say debate about their ethnic origins, some say they were Turanic like, Dravidian like, Iranic like, and even Arabian like from the region of Dilmun modern day Bahrain.

No need to speculate. We already know the Sumerians came from the north.

[StonyArabia]

It doesn't matter if you respect their presence. The fact of the matter is that they are not native and only became the majority after exterminating the Assyrians and Armenians that lived there. They got displaced from the Zagros Mountains as a result of Turks or Persians(can't remember which). Sumerians and Akkadians are native and mixed to form Assyrians and Babylonians. That is basic Mesopotamian history. And yes, I am well aware that there were a few other groups that ended up mixing with the natives such as the Elamites and Lakhmids, but their genetic impact would be very limited.

I don't much about Kurds, so I will take your words for it. The Lakhmids Arabized the population long before Islam.




The small minority of Arabs that lived in Mesopotamia prior to Islam didn't transform the area. It was the sweeping invasion of Arabians who brought Islam.

They did change and transform the region.


That isn't even true. Non-Muslims were heavily taxed for worshiping other gods, so they abandoned their old religions. Kind of like what happened in the Balkans.

History does not agree the Lakhmids switched because of politics.

Here:It is now widely believed that the annexation of the Lakhmid kingdom was one of the main factors behind the Fall of Sassanid dynasty to the Muslim Arabs and the Islamic conquest of Persia, as the Lakhmids agreed to act as spies for the Muslims after being defeated in the Battle of Hira by Khalid ibn al-Walid
Source Jump up ^ Iraq After the Muslim Conquest By Michael G. Morony, pg. 233


The fact of the matter is that if you weren't trying to be invasive, you would have stayed in the depopulated areas of southern Mesopotamia not go all the way up to all the Assyrians towns and become the majority.

I already told you, the reason they came some tribes escaped the Portuguese invasion in Arabia and settled, well others were brought by the British into Northern Iraq because of their loyalty to the Ottomans. They became a majority due to the fact they often moved in tribes and they are nomadic and semi-nomadic. Another reason they moved North was because of the growth of Shiaism among the Arabian tribes in the South, this is a different story.


Yes, it is interesting, but it doesn't change the fact that they are invasive and do not belong, especially in the north.

Did you not say most of them were of Arabized Assyrian stock. I am only referring to the known tribes who actually trace their lineage both maternal and paternal to Arabia.




If you had a basic understanding of history, the area was always Assyrian(and the ancestral populations). Every city of northern Mesopotamia have old Assyrian names.

Mosul=Nineveh
Tikrit=Ashur
Arbil=Arbella
Diyarbakir= Amid/Edessa
Kerkuk= Arraphka
Dohuk=Nuhadra[/QUOTE]

I know that and never denied that, btw Tikrit was depopulated by Tamerlane.


Urmia, Iran is pretty much the only large Assyrian city that wasn't renamed.

Interesting.


Kurds are not native. Only a few are because they kidnapped and raped Assyrian women.

Well some might be Kurdified Assyrians rather, who converted and adopted Kurdish culture. Like I have said I don't know much about them, I just know they are native to the Northeast region of Iraq as of now that is.

[Elms]

I don't much about Kurds, so I will take your words for it. The Lakhmids Arabized the population long before Islam.

The population wasn't Arabized. Mesopotamians just weren't homogenized at that point.



They did change and transform the region.

No they didn't or I'd be more genetically similar to Arabians. They were absorbed, which only makes sense since they were much smaller in numbers.


History does not agree the Lakhmids switched because of politics.

Here:It is now widely believed that the annexation of the Lakhmid kingdom was one of the main factors behind the Fall of Sassanid dynasty to the Muslim Arabs and the Islamic conquest of Persia, as the Lakhmids agreed to act as spies for the Muslims after being defeated in the Battle of Hira by Khalid ibn al-Walid
Source Jump up ^ Iraq After the Muslim Conquest By Michael G. Morony, pg. 233

They didn't convert to Islam, they only spied for Muslims. Their rivals were the Ghassanid because they were Orthodox as apposed to Nestorians.



I already told you, the reason they came some tribes escaped the Portuguese invasion in Arabia and settled, well others were brought by the British into Northern Iraq because of their loyalty to the Ottomans. They became a majority due to the fact they often moved in tribes and they are nomadic and semi-nomadic. Another reason they moved North was because of the growth of Shiaism among the Arabian tribes in the South, this is a different story.

They could have went to another part of Arabia. The Portuguese only controlled a few coastal areas. The Brits didn't push as many up there as there are now. Your people took over the area.



Did you not say most of them were of Arabized Assyrian stock. I am only referring to the known tribes who actually trace their lineage both maternal and paternal to Arabia.

There are a lot of ethnic Arabians up there as well. Sunni Arabs started moving there in droves during the Saddam period.



I know that and never denied that, btw Tikrit was depopulated by Tamerlane.

Tikrit was repopulated by Assyrians who once again became Arabized. One of my older relatives said people from Tikrit(almost entirely Muslim) would make a cross symbol with their hands. When my cousin asked why, they said they didn't know but their parents used to do it and their grandparents as well. So obviously, they were forcefully converted to Islam and forced to identify as Arab after the Mongol massacre occurred.


Interesting.

Honestly, I'm somewhat surprised that it still has its ancient name. Every other city has been renamed except a few smaller ones in Iraq, like Bartella and Bakhdida.



Well some might be Kurdified Assyrians rather, who converted and adopted Kurdish culture. Like I have said I don't know much about them, I just know they are native to the Northeast region of Iraq as of now that is.

Kurdification was a result of them kidnapping Assyrian women after killing the men during the genocide. The majority of them are still Iranic, or they would look more like Assyrians and Armenians.

[Genn]

As for genetic evidence many Iraqis who took their DNA results appeared genetically the same as Saudis and Yemenite Jews, this was and is confirmed by McDonalds.

Has that been posted somewhere? Also, where would they plot on this?

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2731/ncz9.jpg



Frankly we are real Arabians and proud of it.

Let's agree to disagree.



Genn if you are not an Iraqi Arab shut up. You are just British poser. At least I am forming a discussion if you are an Iraqi Arab you are self-hater.

Wow. One comment asking for genetic evidence was all it took.

[StonyArabia]

Has that been posted somewhere? Also, where would they plot on this?

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2731/ncz9.jpg

They often plot with Bedouins, and McDonald often say Saudi Arabia I think this clear evidence that they are of Arabian stock. Some appear to be similar to Assyrians, however the majority seem to be clearly Arabian originated. You know that my mom is very similar to Yemenite Jews and she is from Mosul.



Let's agree to disagree.

This depends on which ethnic group, the vast majority of Iraqis are not Arabized.


Wow. One comment asking for genetic evidence was all it took.

To be honest I don't understand what you mean, because the plot you posted had no person in it usually as the circle.

[emrauld85]

[B]
They often plot with Bedouins, and McDonald often say Saudi Arabia I think this clear evidence that they are of Arabian stock. Some appear to be similar to Assyrians, however the majority seem to be clearly Arabian originated. You know that my mom is very similar to Yemenite Jews and she is from Mosul.




This depends on which ethnic group, the vast majority of Iraqis are not Arabized.



To be honest I don't understand what you mean, because the plot you posted had no person in it usually as the circle.


It's very interesting to see how Bedouin Arabs try always to destroy (nowadays ) the ancestral history of the other people who are attached to it.

You got a lot of work to do cause avast part of your info is just falsification.

"Iraqi Arabs belong to well known Arabian tribes: Banu Lam, Muntafaq, Bani Tamim, Banu Kaab, Mutar, Dawaser, Banu Truf and Shammar, and Rawallah. Each of these tribes function as ethnicity and nation in it's own right. They even have their own tribal flags for example." ??

All of them ? Part of them !
According to recent Genetic study , the southern Part of Iraq is indeed closer to the Arabic tribes that you come from.
But if you go to the Middle-part of Iraq and Northern Part , i can tell you now that you are completely misunderstood.
The people of who are living there are mixed and still have a particular relation to the autochthon population even a big part of them have been INTERMIXED with Arabic tribes.

See how you are trying to turn it to your advantage ?!

This can be applied also to the Eastern Part of Syria.
And who told you that these Arabic tribes who lived in the cities never mixed with the Natives ?

What happened in the Eastern part is a mixed between the Natives (Mostly called Arameans) and Arabic tribes who formed the local Eastern Population.
While the Western Part is mostly Aramean until today.

So you are misunderstood.

"Iraq and Jordan. Jordan was always an extension of Arabia though." ?

We can't give out the exact extension of the Arabic Peninsula.
According to some Historians, its limit areas grazes Modern Jordan. They consider that the Syrian desert is not an extension to the Arabic peninsula.

"when the area was taken over in the 17th century by Bedouin tribes from the Arabian Peninsula. " ?

I think we responded and analyzed your suggestion. The people there are mixed and genetic can prove it very clearly.

"Southeastern Syrians are of Arabian stock especially the Shammar, Rawallah, and the Aqidiat which is branch of the Bani Tamim and all of them have relatives across into Iraq. "
?

If you refer to the southern-Eastern part were Bedouins still preserve their culture , so be certain that the number of these Bedouins who particularly don't mixed don't exceed 1.2 Millions in all the Country.

". The Ghassanid then settled and conquered the area of Syria and established themselves as the elite due to the adoption of Christianity and even allying with the Byzantines. They became a proxy of the Byzantines against the Persians whom had the Lakhmids. The Ghassanid influence can be seen in the culture and art in Syria. Also the Ghassanids were never Islamized, and got assimilated into the local Christian population." ???


Sorry ??? Can you repeat it again ???

You are really completely unaware of what you are talking about.

Quote :

Response to your suggestion:

"Where are the real "Arab Christians?" They are dispersed between Jordan, Syria, Israel, and the Palestinian autonomous territories. They are the remnants of the Arab Christian clans . They are estimated to be 200,000 in Syria, a hundred thousand in Jordan and an equal number or more among the Palestinian-Arab populations, including within the Arab--Israeli population. The Christians in Israel are composed of Arabs, Arabized, non-Arabs, and few non-Middle Eastern. Although Arabs and Arabized are the majority (around 70%) the non-Arabs who are the descendants of pre-Arabs are in high numbers. Among them are the Maronites, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Syriacs, and Armenians. "

You can clearly see that their number inside the country don't exceed 10% of the local Christian population and be certain the the Ultimate majority of the Christians live outside the Middle-East.

The Ghassanids never lived in the principal Aramean cities, they lived in the Syrian Desert and mixed in the Aramean population who formed at this time the Majority of the population.
--------------------------

"Northern Iraqi Arabs are Arabized Assyrians their dialect is heavily influenced by Aramaic and Assyrian. Southern Iraqis are ethnic Arabians and including those in the West."

"But the Iraqi Arabs are Arabian if people like it or not that's how it is.
"

This is what i call it a double talk.

You have to decide.

Finally i would like to conclude that we are denying nothing but you are trying to destroy our historical ancestors and history.

[StonyArabia]

[B]
It's very interesting to see how Bedouin Arabs try always to destroy (nowadays ) the ancestral history of the other people who are attached to it.

What most of the people of Iraq claim Arabian Bedouin origins, and those who don't usually claim to descent from the Southern Arabian tribes like the Lakhmid, Quda, and the Tanukh. If you mean the Sumerians they were related to Arabians, this can be seen in their connection to the Dilmunites of Bahrain. Also some people in Iraq have Persian origins but mixed with the locals.

You got a lot of work to do cause avast part of your info is just falsification.

"Iraqi Arabs belong to well known Arabian tribes: Banu Lam, Muntafaq, Bani Tamim, Banu Kaab, Mutar, Dawaser, Banu Truf and Shammar, and Rawallah. Each of these tribes function as ethnicity and nation in it's own right. They even have their own tribal flags for example." ??


All of them ? Part of them !

The majority of them are from these Arabian Bedouin tribes. Those who are not organized in tribes usually belong to Arabized Persians, who migrated in the 17th century to the region and settled in the shrine cities of Karbala and Najaf.


According to recent Genetic study , the southern Part of Iraq is indeed closer to the Arabic tribes that you come from.
But if you go to the Middle-part of Iraq and Northern Part , i can tell you now that you are completely misunderstood.
The people of who are living there are mixed and still have a particular relation to the autochthon population even a big part of them have been INTERMIXED with Arabic tribes.

Yes that's generally true, Southern Iraqis are mostly of Bedouin origins who adopted Shiaism in the 19th century. However Northern Iraq has significant Sunni Bedouin population like the Shammar northern clans, Jubur, and Dulaim. However those that are not of Bedouin origins will be different. There was also Shia Bedouins who migrated to North Iraq especially in Kirkuk.




No those are facts and Sumerians were Arabians or Arabian like, so nothing much has changed really when you think about it. Iraq just returned back to it's origins. The Sumerian remains matches best with Southern Iraqis and Arabians.

[QUOTE=emrauld85;]This can be applied also to the Eastern Part of Syria.
And who told you that these Arabic tribes who lived in the cities never mixed with the Natives ?

They did not because of the Mongol/Timurid change of the demographic factor.


What happened in the Eastern part is a mixed between the Natives (Mostly called Arameans) and Arabic tribes who formed the local Eastern Population.
While the Western Part is mostly Aramean until today.

Some of them, and Nabateans were not genunine Arameans in the first place, they were a confederation of Central Arabians who migrated, they originally spoke Northern Arabic before shifting to Aramaic and again shifting back to Arabic. Frankly genetics don't agree to your assertion and Jordan was always extension of Arabia and the Bedouin tribal population is considered to be what constitute ethnic Jordanians, not the Syrians, Palestinians, and various migrants to the region


It's very funny to see how you prefer to speak about us instead of speaking about you.

Those are facts Iraqi Arabs are of Arabian ancestry just look at the culture of Iraq and that of Arabia, the only difference is sectarian affiliation. Thus Iraq is Arabia to be frank

[emrauld85]

Do you have any source that shows that the ancient Sumerians were Arabians ? I will rather say that they were Dravidians(anyway today i believe that they are vanished).

The ancient culture was replaced in Iraq because after the mixing and Arabization of the region , the mixed people and the Arabized indigenous people adopted the Arabic and Bedouin culture. This applied to the Middle-part of Iraq and Eastern-part of Syria(here mixed between Arabians and Arameans).

The culture comes and goes. It can be mixed with pre-cultures that appeared in the geographical area.

You have one of the newest Genetic tests updated recently :

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

The Southern iraqis (Marsh Arabs) carry 81% of Haplogroup J1. Which is a huge number and it corresponds exactly to your suggestion concerning southern Iraq.
But it's not true to the other part of Iraq at all.

The Northern part(Kurdistan) carry around 11.5% of Haplogroup j1.
While Iraq in the average way has 43%. I think that this number can be applied to the Iraqi people who lived in important cities like Baghdad, meaning that they form a mixed population in a general way.

Jordan have nowadays 31%(because of the Palestinians who formed 70% of the population and 30% are real Arabians) , Syria 30% and Lebanon 20% (because of the balanced repartition of the different Religions which make the Christian presence higher, so the Haplogroup J1 lesser).

Iraq is very unbalanced concerning its Haplogroup repartition.

A small part of the modern Arameans carry the Haplogroup J1.
What about the Akkadians of modern Iraq , didn't they carry the Haplogroup J1?

If yes so this Haplogroup in Middle and Northern part of Iraq can be both Arabian and Akkadian.

[zhaoyun]

Probably Iraq.

[The King, I am]

1) Egypt
2) Morocco
3) Lebanon
4) Syria
5) Iraq

?

By that I mean which ones have the most Arab genetic ancestry, and which have the most cultural?

Morocco is only around 15% Arab, there's more SSA than Arab in some regions
And the answer is obviously Iraq...

[Raikaswinþs]

Iraq, Siria, Arabia..most of the natives there share the same racial origin. Iraqi arabs adopted Islam, but most of their pre-Islamic history was already very interlinked with the other semitic groups anyway. Egypt and Morocco on the other hand (specially morocco) were much less influenced by semitic groups before the arrival of Islam.

Therefore Egyptians and Moroccans were the most arabised genetically speaking, since the other groups were already genetically pretty much uniform to begin with.

[Raikaswinþs]

In fact this question is a bit like "who were more Hispanized genetically, the Castilians, The Andalusians, The Filipino or the Maya" if you know what I mean

[EyeOfTheTiger]

Iraq and Oman.

[wvwvw]

What about Yemenis? They range from Arab looking to black

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/08/11/460qat.jpg

http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/yemenis1/yemenis8.jpg

http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/yemenis2/yemenis4.jpg

[Isleño]

Iraq.

[StonyArabia]

What about Yemenis? They range from Arab looking to black

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/08/11/460qat.jpg

http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/yemenis1/yemenis8.jpg

http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/yemenis2/yemenis4.jpg


Yemenis from the highland and Desert region are of Arabian ancestry and also tend to be endogamous. Well the Yemenis from the coastal region are an admixed population.

[emrauld85]

Syria has changed a lot too. The pre-Arab inhabitants was what is now known as the Syriac people. The Syriac people are now only part of the Maronites, all of the Syriac Orthodox Christians, all of the Syriac catholic Christians, and all of the protestants. Now Arabs are Syria. The Sunnis, Shiites, Alawis, Greek Orthodox, and Melkite people are all Arabs and make up more than 90% of the country. However those Arabs are mixed with the Byzantine Greeks, so they are not fully Arab.


If you think that Ottomans , or Seljuks or Mamluks have brought a very high contribution to the genome of the modern Syrians ,so be certain that this is false.
And if you think that the biggest part of modern Syrians a real Arabians , so be certain again that you are misunderstood.

The biggest genetic contribution out of Historical Syria are the Arabian tribes who never formed the Majority of the country.
The reality is that the Eastern part of Syria is mixed between the Arameans and Arabians (essentially in the cities).
While i'm pretty sure that the families of the western cities of this country tend more to be genetically Natives even if you have some Arabian and a very little Turkish influence but be certain that they never replaced the Native people.

So no Mr, Modern Syrians aren't mixed between Turkish and Arabians or between Greeks and Arabians (only).
If one of these suggestions was true, so their genome would reflect that but it's not true.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UOHFTxL-bOA/TNWtHCiSC_I/AAAAAAAAAJw/D_Cl7EOeNyI/s1600/ADMIXTURE10.png

[StonyArabia]

Do you have any source that shows that the ancient Sumerians were Arabians ? I will rather say that they were Dravidians(anyway today i believe that they are vanished).

The ancient culture was replaced in Iraq because after the mixing and Arabization of the region , the mixed people and the Arabized indigenous people adopted the Arabic and Bedouin culture. This applied to the Middle-part of Iraq and Eastern-part of Syria(here mixed between Arabians and Arameans).

The culture comes and goes. It can be mixed with pre-cultures that appeared in the geographical area.

You have one of the newest Genetic tests updated recently :

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

The Southern iraqis (Marsh Arabs) carry 81% of Haplogroup J1. Which is a huge number and it corresponds exactly to your suggestion concerning southern Iraq.
But it's not true to the other part of Iraq at all.

The Northern part(Kurdistan) carry around 11.5% of Haplogroup j1.
While Iraq in the average way has 43%. I think that this number can be applied to the Iraqi people who lived in important cities like Baghdad, meaning that they form a mixed population in a general way.

Jordan have nowadays 31%(because of the Palestinians who formed 70% of the population and 30% are real Arabians) , Syria 30% and Lebanon 20% (because of the balanced repartition of the different Religions which make the Christian presence higher, so the Haplogroup J1 lesser).

Iraq is very unbalanced concerning its Haplogroup repartition.

A small part of the modern Arameans carry the Haplogroup J1.
What about the Akkadians of modern Iraq , didn't they carry the Haplogroup J1?

If yes so this Haplogroup in Middle and Northern part of Iraq can be both Arabian and Akkadian.

How does making one Christian makes your Hapolgroup lesser. The fact of the matter that Christians in the region are also mixed and have varying haplogroups in the region. Having J1 lineages does not or have to indicate Arabian ancestry, it's the autosomal DNA that does. Iraqi Kurds are genetically close to Persians and Azeris than they are to their Arab neighbours, this where they autosomally cluster. Going back and seeing that Christianity is a universal religion this makes sense, and not only that some Muslim families have also converted to Christianity for whatever reason, there is examples of this.

As for the Marsh Arabs they are Bedouin grouping, what makes them different from the other Bedouin groupings is they follow 12er Shia Islam, unlike the vast majority of other Bedouins who follow Sunni Islam, and with some following nominal forms of Christianity.

You also remember not ignore the fact that during the Afghan rule of Iran, many Shia Persians moved into Iraq especially into Baghdad, Karbala, and Najaf. These people eventually melted and intermarried with the locals, but kept their Iranic memory. That's the main reason why there is different haplogroups. However Iraqis in general are autosomally Arabian in the case of Southern Iraqis/Marsh Arabs, autosmally similar to Assyrian/Eastern Mizrahim in the North. There are are some who are similar to Iranians. However this also can be broken down to the tribes, ethnic groups and so on.

Haplogroups tell us only one story, and hence why autosomal is better marker.

[StonyArabia]

Probably Iraq.

Iraq and Jordan are just extensions of Arabia culturally and genetically. Iraq though is closer to Eastern Arabian cultures, well Jordan is closer to Central Arabian culture, but they are basically the same people nothing much different. This thread is quite funny and laughable. The only people who have little Arabian blood are North Africans.

[Foxy]

SICILY!!!

[StonyArabia]

Isn't your mom's invasive people from northern Iraq where Assyrians live lol? Yeah, you guys just repopulated the area. OKAY.

Yes many of the areas were repopulated because of the Mongol devastation. My mom's clan was expelled by the British in 1921, from Arabia into Northern Iraq. If you have problem with it, go to the British. Although they originally settled in Western Iraq, but they were pushed more North due to the British.This because her clan was loyal to the Ottomans unlike other Arabian groups. The British and their Saud allies will conquer the area of Jebal Shammar and sending many of them to Iraq, though before few clans from the Shammar migrated earlier in the 17th century and which was indeed the result of the Mongol/Timur invasions, which changed the demography of the region. Also my mom's clan are endogamous for the most part, and keep the Bedouin lifestyle.

The Emirate of Jabal Shammar was finally terminated with the Saudi campaign of late 1921. The Emirate surrendered to Saudis on November 2, 1921, and was subsequently incorporated into the Sultanate of Nejd. Today many of the Jebalis of the Shammar live in Syria and Iraq due to the exile commanded by the Sauds and British.

[StonyArabia]

SICILY!!!

Maybe in Europe, and even then genetically this does not really seem to be the case.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Are you sure ??

Actually Modern Egyptians are Arabs

Culturally, genetics tell a different story.

[StonyArabia]

Culturally, genetics tell a different story.

Only Iraq and Southeast Syria, Jordan are not Arabian, not Arabized but truly Arabian in culture, genetics, and traditions. As for Egyptians aside from the Sinai, most of them have their own culture called Masri which is different, they don't have Arab/Arabianc culture but an Egyptian one, and genetically they are just Egyptian. Iraqis on the other hand are not Arabized, neither are true Jordanians, and neither are Southeast Syrians who are very similar to Jordanians.

[Numidia]

It's well known that Syria is very arabized culturally because Damas was a caliphate capital
Arab genetic ancestry ? Genetically arab has never been classified

[Voskos]

Why's everyone so ignorant? Egypt is the heartland of Western Arabian DNA.

[Numidia]

Why's everyone so ignorant? Egypt is the heartland of Western Arabian DNA.

The heartland of most mena

[MinervaItalica]

Maybe in Europe, and even then genetically this does not really seem to be the case.

Still would be Spain or Portugal.

OT: Probably Syria or Iraq.

[Damião de Góis]

Basically sort Southwest Asian, which peaks in Saudis, and you'll have "genetic arabization":

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0

[Dema]

cool story