Proto-Germanics were genetically Finnish ?

[Hweinlant]

New study reveals that late Bronze Age people from Denmark were genetically like modern day Finnish population. Not only this person from Nordic Bronze Age Finnish like, it's extreme Finnish like and quite different from Central Europeans. Question I have is on the subject line.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2hp0my0.png



Sample M4 is an ancient hair sample obtained from the Borum
Eshøj Bronze Age burial in Denmark. The burial comprised three
individuals in oak coffins, commonly referred to as ‘‘the woman,’’
‘‘the young man,’’ and ‘‘the old man.’’ The M4 sample is from the
latter. The site was excavated in 1871–1875 and the coffins dated
to c.1350 BC


http://images.cell.com/images/EdImages/AJHG/ajhg1537.pdf

[Argang]

I would say less "Finnish" or "Germanic" and more "Northeast European with little to none Neolithic influence" when describing such old remains.

Otherwise makes sense, that is close to where the ancestors of West and South Finnish I1-L287 and I1-L300 folks likely originated.

edit.

The bronze age Bulgarian sample looks southern/central euro. They don't have a Balkan reference population, but I don't think it would fall far from modern Bulgarians.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/j6pdmr.jpg

[Hweinlant]

Otherwise makes sense, that is close to where the ancestors of West and South Finnish I1-L287 and I1-L300 folks likely originated.


Possible. I'm just surprised that the sample, being 3000 years old, actually resembles modern Finns a lot. Usually these ancient samples tend to be just outside the modern variation. There was Finnish-like population living in Denmark 3000 years ago.



The bronze age Bulgarian sample looks southern/central euro. They don't have a Balkan reference population, but I don't think it would fall far from modern Bulgarians.


They certainly picked up difficult color scheme. I zoomed max-level at the pdf, snipped out the part of picture and used color picker to define the actual color. It's actually British and not terribly far from the Spanish. More British than Spanish and faraway from Tuscans and Utahn whites. Looks very "Atlantic" actually. Tuscans should be best proxy for modern Bulgarians in that chart and the sample is nowhere near them.

[Peikko]

I knew it, Germanics are Finns in denial. I guess that's why they're so ballsy.

[Dombra]

Well, Proto-Germanic language is influenced by Finnic too

Who tainted the population?

[Gaston]

Well, it seems like most modern European populations formed only during the Bronze age so it's not surprising to me. I guess this sample is very North[east] European and North Asian based on its East Eurasian-shift.

[Hweinlant]

Here's more stuff about the Danish bronze age burial site:
http://natmus.dk/historisk-viden/danmark/oldtid-indtil-aar-1050/bronzealderen/familien-fra-borum-eshoej/

This is the young man in the burial, probably the son of the sample M4.
http://www.kulturarv.dk/1001fortaellinger/uploads/images/editions/borum2/690x_.jpg

The Old man M4:
http://i42.tinypic.com/148d5rp.png

[Hweinlant]

Who tainted the population?

Damn Celts, even the men wear skirts.

[Prince Carlo]

Probably she was a Saami girl married to a Indo European wog???

[Argang]

Unsurprising autosomal results for Chachapoya mummies. They also had typically Native American mtDNA (B2, M and D1).


For the Peruvian mummies, we also included 10 Native American individuals from Central and South America in the PCA (Figures 3E and 3F). Inter-
estingly, all of the mummies fell between the Native American populations (KAR, MAY, AYM) and East Asian populations (JPT, CHS, CHB), as would be expected for a nonadmixed Native American individual (Figures 3E, 3F, and S2). These mummies belonged to the pre-Columbian Chachapoya culture, who, by some accounts, were unusually fair-skinned, suggesting a potential for pre-Columbian European admixture. However, based on our preliminary results, these individuals appear to have been ancestrally Native American.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2h4aw7c.jpg

[Peikko]

Unsurprising autosomal results for Chachapoya mummies. They also had typically Native American mtDNA (B2, M and D1).

The Natzis actually tried to prove, that all the accomplishments of Mayas, Aztecs and other Native American civilizations was due to Nordic race living in the Americas. They sent anthropologists there to measure people and to find Nordid-influences.

[nashua]

This fits the evidence that PIE to Proto-Germanic sound shifts are similar to ones Finnic speakers have today when learning English.

[Peikko]

Fools. They should have sent an expedition to Finland instead.
They did, 220 000 men.

[Kiyant]

Does that mean Germanics are also Turanian?

[Black Wolf]

Wow this is fascinating! Finn Power! :D

[Ibericus]

On the intra-european plots he doesn't cluster with Finns..

[Black Wolf]

I am probably overlooking it but is there a link to this study anywhere? Sorry found it.

[Argang]

They have more plots online? Can you post a link?

[Ibericus]

They have more plots online? Can you post a link?
Yes, on the supplementary data. Here is the intra-euro plot, the Orange dots are the Finns, and as you can see he don't cluster with them, but between the CEU/Brits and the iberians :

http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/8954/yrf1.png

[Argang]

So they were something like East Asian-shifted West Europeans.

By the way, can you post a link to the supplementary data, I can't find it.

[papa diddy pop]

German got spanishized . :laugh:

[Gaston]

Yes, on the supplementary data. Here is the intra-euro plot, the Orange dots are the Finns, and as you can see he don't cluster with them, but between the CEU/Brits and the iberians :

http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/8954/yrf1.png

They were La Braña-oid then.

[Peikko]

Yes, on the supplementary data. Here is the intra-euro plot, the Orange dots are the Finns, and as you can see he don't cluster with them, but between the CEU/Brits and the iberians :



German got spanishized . :laugh:
Is that why Iberians are so blond and blue-eyed tall Germanic looking people?
:laugh:

[papa diddy pop]

They were La Braña-oid then.

they appears like regular danish in fact maybe even a bit more woggish.

[Hweinlant]

Yes, on the supplementary data. Here is the intra-euro plot, the Orange dots are the Finns, and as you can see he don't cluster with them, but between the CEU/Brits and the iberians :


Interesting. Please link to the supplementary. Since the paper is not yet on the latest articles the DOI is redirecting to non-existing page.

[Peikko]

Interesting. Please link to the supplementary. Since the paper is not yet on the latest articles the DOI is redirecting to non-existing page.
He's actually full of shit.

[Ibericus]

Interesting. Please link to the supplementary. Since the paper is not yet on the latest articles the DOI is redirecting to non-existing page.
Bottom of left column :

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000292971300459X?np=y

[Black Wolf]

He's actually full of shit.

Fucking Iberians eh lol.

[Peikko]

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S000292971300459X-gr3.jpg

Principal Component Analysis of Pre- and Postcapture Samples Based on Sequencing One Million Reads Each
Principal component analysis of SNPs overlapping between the 1000 Genomes reference panel and each ancient individual, with Native American individuals also included in (E) and (F). The principal components were calculated with the modern individuals only, and the ancient individual was then projected onto the plot. Shown are (A) V2 (Bulgarian tooth) precapture and (B) postcapture; (C) M4 (Bronze Age hair) precapture and (D) postcapture; and (E) NA40 (Peruvian bone) precapture and (F) postcapture. Population key: ASW, Americans of African ancestry in SW USA; AYM, Aymara from the Peruvian Andes; CEU, Utah residents (CEPH) with Northern and Western European ancestry; CHB, Han Chinese in Beijing, China; CHS, Southern Han Chinese; CLM, Colombians from Medellin, Columbia; FIN, Finnish in Finland; GBR, British in England and Scotland; IBS, Iberian population in Spain; JPT, Japanese in Tokyo, Japan; KAR, Karitiana from the Brazilian Amazon; LWK, Luhya in Webuye, Kenya; MAY, Mayan from Mexico; MXL, Mexican ancestry from Los Angeles, USA; PUR, Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico; TSI, Toscani in Italy; YRI, Yoruba in Ibadan, Nigeria.

[Smeagol]

Yes, and then they mixed with central European wogs. (Alpines, and Dinarics)

[Hweinlant]

These PCAs are not actually that good. Should have looked the method more carefully. They actually created the PCAs using only modern populations and then projected the ancient sample onto that PCA. So the ancient samples were not actually included in the original principal component calculation. Same issue with supplementary and the data in the actual paper. Basically only the part of ancient samples which are overlapping with modern populations get projected onto PCA. No wonder they clustered so neatly with modern populations.

[Prince Carlo]

2 out 3 Bulgarian samples come out very North West European like. The other Bulgarian sample plot with Tuscans.

[Hweinlant]

2 out 3 Bulgarian samples come out very North West European like. The other Bulgarian sample plot with Tuscans.

Doesn't matter much.

"The principal components were calculated using the modern individuals only,
and the ancient individual was then projected onto the plot."

Ancient samples were not part of forming the principal components. You remember Skoglund's paper from last year ? The one which had the Gök-farmers and Ajv-hunters ? When the ancient samples were thrown into principal component calculation they reforged the whole genetic map of Europe. In this paper the authors simply, brutally, projected the ancient samples into already existing principal component analysis, where the framework was created by modern populations. Anachronistic and stupid.

[Argang]

These PCAs are not actually that good. Should have looked the method more carefully. They actually created the PCAs using only modern populations and then projected the ancient sample onto that PCA. So the ancient samples were not actually included in the original principal component calculation. Same issue with supplementary and the data in the actual paper. Basically only the part of ancient samples which are overlapping with modern populations get projected onto PCA. No wonder they clustered so neatly with modern populations.

Resolving how those old samples compare against modern populations wasn't the point though, this was a demonstration of their new capture method for enriching old DNA.

[Hweinlant]

Resolving how those old samples compare against modern populations wasn't the point though, this was a demonstration of their new capture method for enriching old DNA.

Yep, they just wanted to show that they can capture real data.

[Jaska]

New study reveals that late Bronze Age people from Denmark were genetically like modern day Finnish population. Not only this person from Nordic Bronze Age Finnish like, it's extreme Finnish like and quite different from Central Europeans. Question I have is on the subject line.

http://images.cell.com/images/EdImages/AJHG/ajhg1537.pdf
Wrong, it only looks like it in that inaccurate world-wide comparison. But if you look at the supplemental data:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000292971300459X

...you see that in the European-only context it is closer to all the other four populations and most distant to Finns (page 6).

[Jaska]

Well, Proto-Germanic language is influenced by Finnic too

Really? Is there any credible scientific source for this claim? I'm not aware of any.
P.S. Wiik is not credible scientific source.


This fits the evidence that PIE to Proto-Germanic sound shifts are similar to ones Finnic speakers have today when learning English.

Actually they are not, if you look them as the whole.

[Sacrificed Ram]

I think the contrary, finnish clustered with proto-germanics. Modern germanics than suffered external influence. Finns surpass even germanics in amount of I yDNA, they represent the most old european content, despite recent incipient "uralization".

Does someone prove I'm incorrect with north-eurasian component in such old dannes samples?