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http://i.imgur.com/aG2WzGh.jpg
So on one side you have workaholic lunatics, superior when it comes to practical things (that's why their Blitz decimated Poland) on the other side you have more mellow people, Slavs. The genetic difference between Poland & Germany is huge. There is a big gap & no overlap (unless they have Prussian ancestry).
http://i.imgur.com/Tz4A8hA.jpg
There is overlap between Eastern Germans (especially Prussian** and Sachsen*) and Western Poles. But you have to remember, that West Poles don't live immediately behind the German border. Also Lusatian Sorbs - native Slavic population in Brandenburg and Saxony - cluster fully with ethnic Poles.
*German_Lipsian is a sample from Sachsen (Leipzig). They are very Slavic-shifted.
**By Prussian Germans I mean all Germans from the east of the Oder-Neise line.
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According to the PCA you posted, Slovaks (SK) cluster with Italians (IT).
This is outdated PCA from 2004.
Maybe huge but still smaller than between Northern Italy and Southern Italy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cniva
And that is within one country, with no any political borders between them:
http://racialreality.altervista.org/...orth-south.png
http://s12.postimg.org/g2nbvdzrh/Wyrwa.png
http://s18.postimg.org/dmn4d8s4p/Wyrwa3.png
Between Slovenia and North-East Italy there is also a huge genetic difference.
Between Albania and South Slavs there is also a huge genetic difference.
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Borders of Poland after WW1 and WW2:
http://www.geographiapolonica.pl/article/item/7563.html
http://rcin.org.pl/igipz/Content/283...-Eberhardt.pdf
More about borders of Poland after WW1:
http://dziemiela.com/personal/docume...nosci_1919.pdf
https://s14.postimg.org/wkqt042fz/Po...er_WW1_P_O.jpg
https://s14.postimg.org/wkqt042fz/Po...er_WW1_P_O.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sx4lhac.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IxW26IY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PDfY3aE.jpg
Without Prussia the genetic gap between the two would be even bigger & more pronounced. The genetic exchange was big (as far as I know, even every Polish member on TA has German ancestry)..... & the other way around too because when Prussians emigrated back to Germany they were water-downed (i.e. mixed with Poles) & they brought it back into Germany.
Yes there is also other minor things like Slavic tribes (Obotrites) being in East-Germany, but for the most part Poles & Germans are very different.
Not my part of the world but still really interesting.
According to Fichte's description below Lower Silesian "Germans" are totally Polish:
They just happen to speak German (but an incomprehensible dialect of German):
http://i.imgur.com/w7Cdf1M.png
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Here is a message I got from Bob Krampetz when I asked him about his ancestry:
Bob Krampetz is an ethnic Eastern German with all of his ancestors from Poland:
I invited Bob to Living DNA's German Project, but he cannot join because some of his ancestors were from Congress Poland, not Kingdom of Prussia (but they were Germans nonetheless):
And this map shows the genetic affinities of Bob Krampetz:Quote:
Peter, Wie gehts
All my German ancestors were born in Poland, not Germany.
From ~1750 to 1906, when my grandfather left, none were closer to Germany than Torun (Thorn).
Russia was in control of much of the area of current day Poland and Lithuania after the partitions of the 18th century. Nearly all of my ancestors were born in, what is today called "Dobrinland"
After an uprising, around 1860, was put down - Russia declared their sector of Poland was then part of Russian. Also that only the Russian language was to be used.
My Grandfather's, Gustav Krampitz 1881 Barany [Lipno], birth document as well as all his siblings documents were written in Russian.
When he and other siblings emigrated to the U.S., their manifests stated "country of origin: Russia". They'd say they were from "Russia" on documents, until the 'cold war' of the 1950's. Then they said "Poland".
Prior to the late 1800's, I find church documents were in Latin (when listed at a Catholic church - even though they were evangelical) or in Polish, when entered at an Evangelic church.
I have only one German document, a 1794 marriage in the Torun area, of my 3xGreat grandparents written in old German. That document gave me much grief as people able to translate German were at a loss trying to decipher many of the old word meanings.
East Europe areas that today are likely being acceptable as 'German' are likely East & West Prussia. There was a period that some called the Russian Partition "South Prussia", but that wasn't widely accepted.
I have not fully understood where the German speaking and Evangelic (Lutheran) people originated. I've read that Sweden invaded Poland in the 16th century, and that many 'Hollanders' were invited into Poland to tame their swampland. But I find little Genetic connection of the Eastern Europe Germans and long-time ancestry of Germans from areas in today's Germany.
I've read that the largest 'ethnic' group in today's United States, is German. But my research shows that most Germans came from Eastern Europe, specifically Poland! They have "Russia" as their country of origin on their Ellis Island manifests.
I certainly would like to learn more of how so many Germans came to populate the East Europe lands.
I should learn more of DNA genome matching, I only know that all the "Matches" the different companies with my genome tell me of - are just 'dead ends'
Bob Krampetz
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4451155
http://i.imgur.com/DHFyJvk.jpg
The Germans living abroad before ww2 were mixed. Clearly the males could not keep their hands off local women. The president of Germany in the 90's Horst Köhler was a Bessarabian German & can pass as Ukrainian...... I think.
http://i.imgur.com/wMmMqSR.jpg
Genetically, Bob Krampetz is more eastern than me - even though nearly all of his ancestors had German surnames (check his GEDCOM) and nearly all of my ancestors had Slavic surnames.
My mother's maiden surname is German, my father's surname is Slavic. Among my 16 great-great grandparents there is at least 1 German surname (which is my mom's maiden name).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cniva
But I found people with all German surnames who are genetically Slavic:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4463811
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
Can you post pictures of some Polish-Germans? What an interesting hybrid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
This stuff is interesting it's like mixing Rotweiler dog with Husky dog :D. Always some cool (& pretty) results.
There is absolutely no such thing in my region.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cniva
Everyone in my area identifies as Polish, but we have people with German surnames among ancestors and there are many people with German surnames in my area. I come from Greater Poland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rota_(poem)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Września_children_strike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mCfMy5fT_Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6-poUU6Rac
I have a book published in 2008 in Poznań at 100th anniversary of the Greater Poland Uprising of 1918.
It has a list of 2289 surnames of soldiers (2284 men and 5 women) who died while liberating the region from German occupation in 1918-1919. There are surprisingly many German surnames among those people who fought and died against Germany.
Nobody wanted to be a Volksdeutsch dog in my region:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BVApZimRH8
If you identify as German, you will get expelled, dog.