Iron Age Croatia ?

I see Early Iron Age sample from Croatia added to nMonte runner. That's very exciting and I didn't know we had anything beyond middle bronze age.
Anyone know where is it from, what is it genetically like ?

1200 BC
mtDNA: HV0e

I tried modeling myself with Avar Szolad and that, but fit is rather bad (close to 4). Suprisingly Dalmatian MBA sample works lot better with me (excellent fit below 3),
shouldn't later samples provide better fit ?

If you know anything about this sample help to shed some light.

It looks like Southern Euro sample (not suprised), but I am not sure what kind of southern Euro.
I tried to compare it to modern Albanians (closest to Illyrian descendants today) and modern Austrians (where proto-Illyrians suposedly originate from, Hallstat culture), it's closer to Albanians.

But not very close, bad fit to both, Albos being closer (above 4, Austrian above 6)

Now I compared it to Bergamo (standard North Italian) and it's closest to that, below 3 which is excellent fit.


"sample": "Italian_Bergamo:Average",
"fit": 2.684,
"HRV_Early_IA": 100,
"closestDistances": [
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 2.684022"

This is for sure Illyrian sample. And shows continuity with Bronze Age ones, just for unknown reason it doesn't work well with me.
I guess this destroy theory of some loonies in Iron Age western balkanites suddenly became Russian like, haha!

Nope. Illyrians were cloest to North Italians and Iberians, West Med like people.

Indeed, may be a legit Illyrian sample.

https://i.ibb.co/d2Qh48V/Ads-z.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

Indeed, may be a legit Illyrian sample.

https://i.ibb.co/d2Qh48V/Ads-z.png

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Thanks, what does this table means ? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

This is for sure Illyrian sample. And shows continuity with Bronze Age ones, just for unknown reason it doesn't work well with me.
I guess this destroy theory of some loonies in Iron Age western balkanites suddenly became Russian like, haha!

Nope. Illyrians were cloest to North Italians and Iberians, West Med like people.

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So what about the Albanians?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Thanks, what does this table means ? :D

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Single population sharing of the sample. Closest to the Bergamo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dickski

So what about the Albanians?

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They cluster east compared to SW Euros, additional Slavic + Greek or Thracian admixture. Iron Age Bulgaria (Thracian) was genetically SE European.
So I would say Albanians are Illyrians altered by Greco-Thracian and Slavic blood.

Pretty sure Nato posted this sample months ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

They cluster east compared to SW Euros, additional Slavic + Greek or Thracian admixture. Iron Age Bulgaria (Thracian) was genetically SE European.
So I would say Albanians are Illyrians altered by Greco-Thracian and Slavic blood.

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So Illyrians were west med people. What about trying out south Germans. They come out as half iron age Nordic half Roman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayetooey

Pretty sure Nato posted this sample months ago.

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Where ? He posted Vučedol, which is bronze age. I never knew for any Iron Age samples, that is people were trolling Bronze Age is too old, those West Med like samples were not Illyrians
, because Illyrians were Iron Age people. HAHA :)))

There is complete continuity from BA to IA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dickski

So Illyrians were west med people. What about trying out south Germans. They come out as half iron age Nordic half Roman

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Well this one is closest to Bergamo, which is CisAlpine Gaul + neolithic or Roman like ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Well this one is closest to Bergamo, which is CisAlpine Gaul + neolithic or Roman like ?

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Idk peterski once said that. If south slavs aren’t Slavic because of the admixture then south Germans aren’t Germanic

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Where ? He posted Vučedol, which is bronze age. I never knew for any Iron Age samples, that is people were trolling Bronze Age is too old, those West Med like sample were not Illyrians
, because Illyrians were Iron Age people. HAHA :)))

There is complete continuity from BA to IA.

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Nvm I checked his thread history it is BA.

It isn't trolling; anyone who knows about ancient history/archaeology academically knows Illyrians came from East Hallstatt during the Iron Age. How ever it was always pretty obvious it was more of a cultural uptake than a genetic replacement like in say West Europe; considering how neolithic shifted non slavic Balkanites are like Albos, Aromanians, Greeks etc; bearing in mind they're probs north shifted compared to their pre 500 AD ancestors.

Mtdna looks to be the same as my dads based off a mtdna predictor I did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayetooey

Nvm I checked his thread history it is BA.

It isn't trolling; anyone who knows about ancient history/archaeology academically knows Illyrians came from East Hallstatt during the Iron Age. How ever it was always pretty obvious it was more of a cultural uptake than a genetic replacement like in say West Europe; considering how neolithic shifted non slavic Balkanites are like Albos, Aromanians, Greeks etc; bearing in mind they're probs north shifted compared to their pre 500 AD ancestors.

Mtdna looks to be the same as my dads based off a mtdna predictor I did.

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Super cool.
Still clustering with North Italians is def. not that southern as some people imagined. West Med people have more steppe admixture than East Med ones, and some tought Illrians will be Greek like.
Not at all.

They explain our western look compared to SE Slavs, because our native ancestors were already more western (and northern) looking/plotting compared to them.
That is why Bulgarians for example look more eastern than we, and they have less Slavic blood than us.

It's because their native ancestors were Greek like and South Italian like (more SE shifted, more east med), unlike ours.
This explain everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Super cool.
Still clustering with North Italians is def. not that southern as some people imagined. West Med people have more steppe admixture than East Med ones, and some tought Illrians will be Greek like.
Not at all.

They explain our western look compared to SE Slavs, because our native ancestors were already more western (and northern) looking/plotting compared to them.
That is why Bulgarians for example look more eastern than we, and they have less Slavic blood than us.

It's because their native ancestors were Greek like and South Italian like, unlike ours.
This explain everything.

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One of the Dalmatian samples plotted as North as modern Romanians, and in between North Italians and Iberians in terms of Westness. So defo different to modern day non slavic balkanites. There was an obvious cline from north to south and east to west since the Thracian/Bulgarian sample was a wog genetically and much more southeastern.

I would love for them to get some late samples preceding the gothic and slavic invasions. There was some heavy Celtic settlements in the west Balkans from the 3rd century BC onwards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayetooey

One of the Dalmatian samples plotted as North as modern Romanians, and in between North Italians and Iberians in terms of Westness. So defo different to modern day non slavic balkanites. There was an obvious cline from north to south and east to west since the Thracian/Bulgarian sample was a wog genetically and much more southeastern.

I would love for them to get some late samples preceding the gothic and slavic invasions. There was some heavy Celtic settlements in the west Balkans from the 3rd century BC onwards.

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Yes, this prove non Slavic Balkanites were also changed since ancient times, more than they would admit.
I would like these samples too.

And Roman era ones. Because I believe Illyrians became more southern than these samples after romanisation.
Latin language always come with some admix, look at Iberia. But in Balkan it was probably less severe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Super cool.
Still clustering with North Italians is def. not that southern as some people imagined. West Med people have more steppe admixture than East Med ones, and some tought Illrians will be Greek like.
Not at all.

They explain our western look compared to SE Slavs, because our native ancestors were already more western (and northern) looking/plotting compared to them.
That is why Bulgarians for example look more eastern than we, and they have less Slavic blood than us.

It's because their native ancestors were Greek like and South Italian like (more SE shifted, more east med), unlike ours.
This explain everything.

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Did you include Collegno_MA_o1 for Roman input to your model?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vid Flumina

Did you include Collegno_MA_o1 for Roman input to your model?

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I will try it now. I tired with Germanic sample included, but yielded no result for me. I simply don't have it in any significant amount.

Bronze age Dalmatian posted below. Roman/Italian samples found so far are close to Sicilians, so such an admix would bring locals far to the south/east.

https://i.imgur.com/l3vQ8Wu.png

"sample": "Custom:Feodora_scaled",
"fit": 2.8411,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 62.5,
"HRV_MBA": 30.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 6.67,

Fit did not improve, remain the same . I would say Roman input is insignificant. What do you think ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayetooey

Bronze age Dalmatian posted below. Roman/Italian samples found so far are close to Sicilians, so such an admix would bring locals far to the south/east.

https://i.imgur.com/l3vQ8Wu.png

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My mixed mode Oracle on Eurogenes K13

58.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 41.2% North_Italian @ 3.88

:o

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayetooey

Bronze age Dalmatian posted below. Roman/Italian samples found so far are close to Sicilians, so such an admix would bring locals far to the south/east.

https://i.imgur.com/l3vQ8Wu.png

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Avars from Szolad are closest to Belorussians, Poles and Estonians than to Belgorod so Roman input is possible:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...y)-on-GEDmatch

Also there's a cline from Slovenia all the way down to Albania/Greece, there's no cline with Northern Italy.

A couple of models for Croatia and Bulgaria, interestingly both "Roman" and paleo-Balkan input seem to be in the same proportions:

"sample": "Croatian:Average",
"fit": 1.2585,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 15,
"HRV_Early_IA": 10.83,

"sample": "Bulgarian:Average",
"fit": 1.4604,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 48.33,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 30,
"BGR_IA": 21.67,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vid Flumina

Avars from Szolad are closest to Belorussians, Poles and Estonian than to Belgorod so Roman input is possible:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...y)-on-GEDmatch

Also there's a cline from Slovenia all the way down to Albania/Greece, there's no cline with Northern Italy.

A couple of models for Croatia and Bulgaria, interestingly both "Roman" and paleo-Balkan input seems to be in the same proportions:

"sample": "Croatian:Average",
"fit": 1.2585,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 15,
"HRV_Early_IA": 10.83,

"sample": "Bulgarian:Average",
"fit": 1.4604,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 48.33,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 30,
"BGR_IA": 21.67,

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Wow, you get fantastic fit using this model. Slavic input in us is very high if this is right model.
I will try model myself the same, because it rejected Iron Age sample for me in earlier run with Szolad.

"sample": "Custom:Feodora_scaled",

"fit": 3.3016,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 72.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 20.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 6.67,

Yeah, bad fit for me, worsened compared to this one:

"fit": 2.9161,

"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 60.83,
"HRV_MBA": 39.17,

I don't know the reason. Looks like I am less Slavic and less Roman than average Croat, but more simplistic Slavo-Illyrian mix 60:40 ?
Not sure I understand this too well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vid Flumina

Avars from Szolad are closest to Belorussians, Poles and Estonian than to Belgorod so Roman input is possible:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...y)-on-GEDmatch

Also there's a cline from Slovenia all the way down to Albania/Greece, there's no cline with Northern Italy.

A couple of models for Croatia and Bulgaria, interestingly both "Roman" and paleo-Balkan input seem to be in the same proportions:

"sample": "Croatian:Average",
"fit": 1.2585,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 15,
"HRV_Early_IA": 10.83,

"sample": "Bulgarian:Average",
"fit": 1.4604,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 48.33,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 30,
"BGR_IA": 21.67,

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Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I tried this for Slovenia and got an even closer fit:
"sample": "Slovenian:Average",
"fit": 1.2497,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"HRV_Early_IA": 15.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 10,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alenka

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I tried this for Slovenia and got an even closer fit:
"sample": "Slovenian:Average",
"fit": 1.2497,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"HRV_Early_IA": 15.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 10,

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Very cool, these models make lot of sense and fit is great. Not for me, but for average people indeed.

Average Slovenian/Croatian is almost the same with those samples. Average Croatian sample is obviously based off Kajkavian Croats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayetooey

Average Slovenian/Croatian is almost the same with those samples. Average Croatian sample is obviously based off Kajkavian Croats.

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It's from Zagreb most likely and that's logical since biggest amount of Croats live there.
I don't think it's pure Kajkavian tho because I am very close to it, only bit more east and even less more south, cloeser to that than Ph2ter is who is Kajkavian. (I think)

But again, he cluster more north than average Slovenes.

https://i.imgur.com/6Oe6Tnr.png

I am extremely close to Croatian G25 average, and Slovenian is little more north.
It shows Croats are genetically pretty homogenous I guess, since I am almost entirely southern in ancestry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Yes, this prove non Slavic Balkanites were also changed since ancient times, more than they would admit.
I would like these samples too.

And Roman era ones. Because I believe Illyrians became more southern than these samples after romanisation.
Latin language always come with some admix, look at Iberia. But in Balkan it was probably less severe.

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You have to bear in mind that we still have no ancient samples from Southern Illyria, Epirus or Macedonia. Albanians largely trace their descent(autosomally speaking) from Southern Illyrians. Whilst the North and Dalmatian Illyrians were probably shifted further north and west(as todays populations).

Of course later admixtures shifted further north and east. However, this is largely anecdotal. It is ultimately irrelevant. Albanians largely possess native Illyrian West Balkan YDNA lineages. Proto-Illyrian YDNA was J2b-L283. The parent clade to V13 near Split and Bronze Age R1b in Bosnia. All 3 of these lineages are the majority in Albanians as a whole(varying region to region). Regardless of the "shift", most Albanians are directly Illyrian via paternal descent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MagnusDark

You have to bear in mind that we still have no ancient samples from Southern Illyria, Epirus or Macedonia. Albanians largely trace their descent(autosomally speaking) from Southern Illyrians. Whilst the North and Dalmatian Illyrians were probably shifted further north and west(as todays populations).

Of course later admixtures shifted further north and east. However, this is largely anecdotal. It is ultimately irrelevant. Albanians largely possess native Illyrian West Balkan YDNA lineages. Proto-Illyrian YDNA was J2b-L283. The parent clade to V13 near Split and Bronze Age R1b in Bosnia. All 3 of these lineages are the majority in Albanians as a whole(varying region to region). Regardless of the "shift", most Albanians are directly Illyrian via paternal descent.

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And we are Slavic, but obviously we are not pure Slavs neither are you pure Illyrian. Nothing wrong with that,

I still don't understand how it it possible I am so close to average on G25 and posess even more simplistic mix than typical Croat.
My mother is only half Croat.

Extremely weird and mysterious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

And we are Slavic, but obviously we are not pure Slavs neither are you pure Illyrian. Nothing wrong with that,

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Of course. However, I am merely saying people are jumping the gun with regards to the shift. To assume Illyrians were genetically homogeneous all over is wrong. Romans did as they always do(lump groups together). There certainly was genetic deviation region to region as you have among population genetics results today. Naturally Illyrians in Dalmatia will be a little different than those in Albania, ,Macedonia, Kosova etc. They were more in contact with Italic/Celtic tribes on their western periphery. So the shift is no mystery. This is why we look at YDNA to better understand the migratory patterns of a specific clade and try and fill the blanks in as data presents itself.

If southern Illyrians plot as southwest as the Dalmatian samples then we can talk about how big a impact admixture had.

Theres also random recombination events generationally. Some admixtures can be selected for over others.

Tried using different early Slav sample from Bohemia, fit is slightly worse than with Szolad (and with Iron Age Croatia instead of Dalmatia MBA is horrific), again just Slav + Balkan, Roman input is 0.

https://i.imgur.com/gidKfjP.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

"sample": "Custom:Feodora_scaled",

"fit": 3.3016,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 72.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 20.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 6.67,

Yeah, bad fit for me, worsened compared to this one:

"fit": 2.9161,

"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 60.83,
"HRV_MBA": 39.17,

I don't know the reason. Looks like I am less Slavic and less Roman than average Croat, but more simplistic Slavo-Illyrian mix 60:40 ?
Not sure I understand this too well.

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thats what i get

"fit": 2.1099,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 62.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 30.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 6.67

"fit": 3.2097,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 56.67,
"HRV_MBA": 43.33

btw is this on the auto nmonte run for k36 ancient? or is this a self-run nmonte? I could post my G25 if someone could run me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dickski

thats what i get

"fit": 2.1099,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 62.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 30.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 6.67

"fit": 3.2097,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 56.67,
"HRV_MBA": 43.33

---

Edit: seen wrongly

Your first model has great fit, obviously it work for you. :thumb001:
Suprised how much Roman and how little Illyrian you have :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MagnusDark

btw is this on the auto nmonte run for k36 ancient? or is this a self-run nmonte? I could post my G25 if someone could run me.

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Here, but its a pain if youre on your phone

http://185.144.156.77:3000/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MagnusDark

btw is this on the auto nmonte run for k36 ancient? or is this a self-run nmonte? I could post my G25 if someone could run me.

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yes, we are using this (me at least): http://185.144.156.77:3000/