https://www.theapricity.com/forum/at...5&d=1625775148
As far as I know, it is of Slavic origin but its existence in Sardinia makes me question my knowledge since Sardinians have almost no Slavic ancestry. What is the origin of I2a1 haplogroup?
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https://www.theapricity.com/forum/at...5&d=1625775148
As far as I know, it is of Slavic origin but its existence in Sardinia makes me question my knowledge since Sardinians have almost no Slavic ancestry. What is the origin of I2a1 haplogroup?
Depends on the subclade. The reason for such a high percentage on Sardinia is during the last Ice age the sea levels dropped so low that the distance between Sardinia and the mainland was reduced which made crossing relatively easy. After the sea levels rose again, those cromags were stuck on the island like Gilligan.
Then came the farmer women on boats and made them their sex slaves.
Only I2-Y3120 is Slavic branch of I2a https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/
https://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/up...a-I2-Y3120.jpg
I-PH908 South Slav reporting for duty
yes, originally Slavic, I read a few years ago that one day Germans (R1a) started call themself Slavs, Celts (R1b) - as Germanics, and real Slavs (I2a1) ran/escaped down/south, and that's very true...
next question?!
Not all clades Slavic, I2 in Iranics and NW Asia in general is probably related to the clade in Armenia LBA sample
It's Pre-Slavic
Central European.
LOL. Germans invaded themselves during WW2?Quote:
Originally Posted by Veljo
lol, what if it happened in the Middle Ages (Migration Period/Barbarian Invasions )?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavic Italian
Half of Germany is Slavic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veljo
How much Slavic ancestry do Romanians? Surely not a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varda
A lot actually, but on average they have even more southern European like ancestry (Balkan, Roman etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy
If these K13 ancient samples are accurate, then 50% on average:
Code:Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1548_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,13.7,7.83,17.2,21.18,31.85,6.18,0.1,0,1.17,0,0.7,0.07,0.01
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R835_Marche_Roman_Imperial,17.48,7.33,22.76,15.83,28.17,4.29,2.11,0,0,0.18,0.49,0,1.37
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R50_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,12.8,5.92,19.69,18.96,31.66,8.21,1.77,0.13,0,0,0,0,0.87
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R126_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,6.85,0,21.95,22.6,37.03,8.91,0.98,0.75,0,0,0.22,0,0.71
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R32_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy,15.10,6.10,27.02,17.20,26.77,5.20,0.00,0.37,0.00,0.07,0.74,0.00,1.44
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R131_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,18.55,6.06,22.93,13.3,31.22,5.99,0,1.15,0,0.4,0,0,0.4
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R38_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,1.92,0,18.71,28.11,41.51,8.68,0,0,0,0.45,0.34,0,0.28
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R40_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,14.72,0,23,19.52,36.2,5.66,0,0.47,0.15,0,0,0,0.27
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,25.73,7.27,26.59,13.06,25.7,1.65,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,25.73,4.01,26.05,11.36,28.27,3.92,0,0,0,0.46,0.2,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R114_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,17.19,6.78,18.04,19.02,29.56,7.35,0.58,0.77,0,0.7,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R123_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,12.03,4.13,19.45,20.54,37.07,3.99,0,0.97,0,0,1.83,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R128_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,2.63,8.5,21.08,27.13,34.24,5.03,0,0,0,0.84,0.55,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1544_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,16.53,4.64,21.39,18.62,31.87,3.82,1.51,0,0.43,0.3,0.89,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1545_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,10.35,3.4,22.3,23.93,31.78,7.44,0.06,0,0,0,0.73,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1551_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.31,0,12.6,36.12,34.89,8.22,2.15,0.72,0,0,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R39_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,9.38,2.57,24.97,19.78,34.82,5.66,0,1.74,0.29,0.78,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R43_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,12.19,0,22.2,21.83,39.45,3.15,0.45,0,0,0.08,0.65,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R44_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,14.45,0,23.48,18.04,38.86,5.16,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R51_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,20.47,1.28,20.11,15.05,34.89,5.56,0,0.17,0,0.59,1.88,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R66_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,7.81,1.07,23.57,24.26,37.48,4.96,0,0,0,0,0.85,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R69_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,12.48,4.41,24.55,22.98,33.7,0.54,0,0.59,0,0.5,0.25,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R71_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,6.09,0.06,20.33,24.54,44.64,3.4,0,0,0,0,0.94,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R72_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,10.24,0,22.92,19.04,41.2,5.12,0,0,0.57,0,0.91,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R78_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.76,2.77,22.82,22.14,43.72,2.03,0,0.1,0,0.27,0.39,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R81_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,11.54,2.43,22.21,17.14,39.17,4.79,1.98,0,0,0,0.74,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R836_Marche_Roman_Imperial,17.9,4.35,25.43,19.62,29.98,1.61,0,0,0,0.28,0.83,0,0
Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Avar_daughter.or.mother.AV1_1356_ybp,30.22,47.46,11.05,4.34,3.01,0.41,0.55,0,1.56,0.94,0,0.46,0
Slavic:Sunghir6_Russia_Sunghir6.SG_790_ybp,25.17,45.83,13.05,4.29,6.41,0.44,0.00,0.03,2.59,1.13,0.64,0.42,0.00
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11.70,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0.00,1.18,0.56,0.79,0.00,1.29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43.78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0.00,0.00,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0.87
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK287,27.47,45.26,8.62,7.09,7.54,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.53,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Pskov_VK159,28.62,50.38,7.63,3.49,4.19,0,2.08,0,0,1.86,0.48,1.27,0
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272,27.1,42.86,8.37,4.01,8.44,3.37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454,25.59,45.53,14.97,2.7,4.74,0.3,0.73,2.49,0,0.34,1.21,1.4,0
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11.7,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0,1.18,0.56,0.79,0,1.29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43.78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0,0,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0.87
Slavic:KRA011_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,29.56,50.68,8.38,2.39,2.54,1.03,1.3,0.14,0,1.4,1.27,1.1,0.21
Slavic:KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,25.47,47.56,12.36,7.54,1.32,0,2.43,0.52,0.01,1.2,0.71,0.61,0.27
Slavic:VK494_Poland_Sandomierz,32.56,47.37,12.86,2.56,0,0,0.82,2.53,0.31,0.22,0,0.77,0
Slavic:VK466_Russia_Gnezdovo,25.85,43.15,9.22,12.82,0,0,2.34,0.15,0,2.09,1.69,0,2.69
Slavic:VK340_Denmark_Jutland,28.29,43.29,9.89,5.02,8.09,0,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
Germanic:VK70_Denmark_Sealand,52.29,23.74,12.54,6.47,0.3,0,0.81,1.13,0.06,1.05,0.67,0,0.94
Germanic:VK71_Denmark_Sealand,50.44,30.82,9.69,0.59,2.98,0,0,0,0,1.69,3.35,0,0.45
Germanic:VK296_Denmark_Sealand,47.81,32.58,6.95,3.19,0.95,3.53,0.65,0.12,0.46,1.63,0.74,1.39,0
Germanic:VK297_Denmark_Sealand,50.8,29.78,9.51,3.37,0,1.41,0.27,0.5,3.26,0.29,0.61,0,0.21
Germanic:AED106_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1455_ybp,45.38,30.61,9.37,10.33,0.00,0.05,0.82,0.00,0.00,1.56,1.13,0.05,0.70
Germanic:AED249_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1455_ybp,45.91,36.06,8.53,3.83,0.00,2.62,1.36,1.26,0.42,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Germanic:Alh1_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1500_ybp,50.39,26.23,13.00,5.30,0.00,1.40,0.00,1.70,0.00,1.11,0.49,0.38,0.00
Germanic:NW255a_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1476_ybp,52.54,25.61,7.98,6.28,0.00,5.74,0.00,0.00,0.07,0.00,0.37,0.00,1.41
Germanic:STR316b_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1455_ybp,56.84,24.99,10.89,0.62,0.00,0.00,1.23,0.17,1.56,1.93,0.52,0.82,0.42
Germanic:STR480_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1430_ybp,48.57,26.47,16.11,4.79,0.00,1.51,0.93,0.87,0.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.13
Turkic:DA101_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1716_ybp,1 5.48,20.81,0.00,25.74,0.00,0.00,10.64,6.48,15.16,4 .45,0.00,0.00,1.24
Turkic:DA104_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1600_ybp,1 6.18,18.94,0.00,18.27,0.00,0.00,8.84,7.48,25.18,4. 61,0.15,0.35,0.00
Turkic:DA105_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_son.DA104. SG_1783_ybp,15.25,20.57,0.86,20.19,0.00,0.00,6.40, 8.60,25.03,3.10,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA385_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1467_ybp,1 5.92,19.74,0.00,17.23,0.00,0.00,8.70,8.58,24.42,4. 84,0.00,0.00,0.56
Turkic:DA65_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1511_ybp,23 .89,17.03,0.00,14.40,0.00,0.00,5.83,10.23,21.70,5. 38,0.04,0.00,1.49
Turkic:DA66_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1447_ybp,14 .78,23.68,0.00,13.28,0.00,0.00,9.32,7.37,24.16,3.4 6,2.08,0.00,1.86
Turkic:DA69_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1516_ybp,17 .53,18.31,0.00,24.71,1.09,0.00,9.68,5.25,20.35,2.8 9,0.20,0.00,0.00
Code:
Romania_average,23.31,26.03,17.34,10.46,17.38,1.95,0.70,0.65,1.09,0.52,0.36,0.12,0.09
Romania_Banat,22.75,25.65,17.78,10.71,17.71,2.06,0.84,0.55,1.21,0.40,0.21,0.07,0.09
Romania_Crisana,25.58,26.36,17.69,9.50,16.32,1.25,0.82,0.62,0.85,0.59,0.25,0.12,0.06
Romania_Dobruja,22.11,24.93,17.64,11.00,18.49,2.23,0.71,0.87,1.25,0.37,0.28,0.07,0.06
Romania_Maramures,24.38,28.43,16.90,9.19,15.65,2.06,1.06,0.73,0.75,0.29,0.49,0.05,0.00
Romania_Moldavia_North,24.87,29.86,15.41,9.35,14.46,1.78,0.89,0.71,1.33,0.59,0.46,0.15,0.13
Romania_Moldavia_South,24.05,26.15,17.12,10.05,16.97,2.00,0.76,0.53,1.08,0.63,0.39,0.13,0.13
Romania_Muntenia,21.91,24.66,17.54,11.35,18.87,2.19,0.72,0.55,1.03,0.59,0.35,0.13,0.10
Romania_Oltenia,23.52,25.05,17.97,10.73,17.82,1.79,0.70,0.79,0.69,0.38,0.36,0.10,0.09
Romania_Transylvania,24.31,25.97,17.43,10.13,16.98,1.84,0.65,0.54,1.04,0.59,0.35,0.07,0.10
Romania_Wallachia,22.35,24.81,17.64,11.14,18.53,2.09,0.75,0.65,0.96,0.52,0.35,0.11,0.09
https://i.imgur.com/lBbtylR.png
That's a fucking lot. I thought Bulgarians (and the Gagauz) would be barely 40% Slavic (I'm pretty tired of this never-ending estimation of "Slavic" ancestry).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dušan
According to these K13 ancient samples, Bulgarians are a bit less proto-Slavic than Romanians, with cca 45% on average.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
https://i.imgur.com/zWNy1qn.png
My people are cca 60% proto-Slavic on average.
https://i.imgur.com/RkjgGWI.png
Originally no. By the time of the late proto-Slavs at least, most definitely yes(speaking of Y3120 here).Alot of people argue for a Celtic origin based on Western derived clades. Issue with this is that the common ancestor Y3120 people have with western clades is no closer than 1400BCE which is far too early.Quote:
Originally Posted by aruncaz
For all we know, Y3120 drifted East earlier than classical Celts and bottlenecked among Proto-Slavs. Or, the "Pre-Slavic Csltic" branch that is partial Y3120 hasn't been found. Issue with this is no Western Europeans have been found splitting Y3120 to form a closer tmrca.
Romanians are more Turkic than Bulgarians, and Bulgarians are more Vlach than Romanians. :puppy_dp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dušan
Brothers, I can tell you who's bloodline is "i2", but you may not like what I have to say. Are you still interested?
Indigenous Balkan (pre Slavic)Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantin
Who are these indigenous Balkanic people and why do they speak slavic tongues if their male blood is not of slavic descent? Do you know or should I tell you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Can you put for Macedonians?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dušan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rćdwald
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voskos
Obviously not, and such wrong information should be put to ground once for all. It's a medieval Slavic marker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
(August 2021) https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....458211v1.fullQuote:
The Kuline individuals are more shifted towards present-day Slavic-speaking populations as compared to individuals in the Central/Northern European cluster, agreeing with the presence of Y-chromosome lineage I2-L621 in Kuline, which is common in present-day Slavic-speaking groups and absent in earlier periods.
This is my model:Quote:
Originally Posted by Varda
Code:Paleo_Balkan:I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34.15,12.62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0.00,0.00,0.38,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Paleo_Balkan:I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp,33.68,12.02,24.41,7.67,19.60,1.39,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.23,0.00,0.00,0.00
Paleo_Balkan:I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp,30.68,13.00,27.73,10.03,16.07,0.60,0.00,1.05,0.00,0.21,0.00,0.00,0.64
Paleo_Balkan:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48,30.00,9.21,28.33,4.36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:Canaanite_,1.63,0.00,14.65,15.10,51.26,17.37,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:Greek_Cappadocian,6.83,3.81,18.16,27.6,36.59,4.92,0.94,0.03,0.64,0.03,0.4,0,0
Eastern_Mediterranean:R126_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,6.85,0.00,21.95,22.60,37.03,8.91,0.98,0.75,0.00,0.00,0.22,0.00,0.71
Eastern_Mediterranean:R128_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,2.63,8.50,21.08,27.13,34.24,5.03,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.84,0.55,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:R1550_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,2.93,0.00,17.45,22.44,37.80,13.78,2.10,0.71,0.00,0.02,0.31,2.45,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:R1551_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.31,0.00,12.60,36.12,34.89,8.22,2.15,0.72,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_,25.54,45.76,13.11,4.08,6.15,0.53,0.00,0.00,2.60,1.08,0.58,0.53,0.00
Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_,30.33,47.37,11.04,4.58,2.63,0.68,0.49,0.00,1.56,0.89,0.00,0.42,0.00
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK287,27.47,45.26,8.62,7.09,7.54,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.53,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Pskov_VK159,28.62,50.38,7.63,3.49,4.19,0,2.08,0,0,1.86,0.48,1.27,0
Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454,25.59,45.53,14.97,2.7,4.74,0.3,0.73,2.49,0,0.34,1.21,1.4,0
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11.7,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0,1.18,0.56,0.79,0,1.29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43.78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0,0,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0.87
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272,27.1,42.86,8.37,4.01,8.44,3.37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Jutland_VK340,28.29,43.29,9.89,5.02,8.09,0,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
Germanic:DA119_Slovakia_Poprad_1600_R_U106_U4b3_375_AD_2_,53.37,27.59,18.52,0.33,0.19,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Germanic:RISE174_Sweden_IA.SG_1431_ybp,48.47,30.87,7.80,5.77,0.58,0.36,2.19,0.00,1.18,1.06,0.56,0.17,1.00
Germanic:Alh1_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1500_ybp,50.39,26.23,13.00,5.30,0.00,1.40,0.00,1.70,0.00,1.11,0.49,0.38,0.00
Germanic:Alh10_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1489_ybp,50.82,27.96,8.13,4.15,4.48,1.91,0.67,0.31,0.00,1.29,0.29,0.00,0.00
Germanic:SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp,47.25,26.28,10.75,7.04,5.01,0.00,1.09,0.00,0.00,0.90,1.69,0.00,0.00
Germanic:SZ15_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp,49.81,25.15,10.68,7.88,0.66,1.04,2.67,1.49,0.62,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA101_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1716_ybp,15.48,20.81,0.00,25.74,0.00,0.00,10.64,6.48,15.16,4.45,0.00,0.00,1.24
Turkic:DA104_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1600_ybp,16.18,18.94,0.00,18.27,0.00,0.00,8.84,7.48,25.18,4.61,0.15,0.35,0.00
Turkic:DA105_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_son.DA104.SG_1783_ybp,15.25,20.57,0.86,20.19,0.00,0.00,6.40,8.60,25.03,3.10,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA385_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1467_ybp,15.92,19.74,0.00,17.23,0.00,0.00,8.70,8.58,24.42,4.84,0.00,0.00,0.56
Turkic:DA65_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1511_ybp,23.89,17.03,0.00,14.40,0.00,0.00,5.83,10.23,21.70,5.38,0.04,0.00,1.49
Turkic:DA66_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1447_ybp,14.78,23.68,0.00,13.28,0.00,0.00,9.32,7.37,24.16,3.46,2.08,0.00,1.86
Turkic:DA69_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1516_ybp,17.53,18.31,0.00,24.71,1.09,0.00,9.68,5.25,20.35,2.89,0.20,0.00,0.00
Target: Croat
Distance: 0.3096% / 0.30956233
61.4 Slavic
19.8 Paleo_Balkan
10.0 Germanic
8.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
Target: Bosniak
Distance: 0.2953% / 0.29528408
65.2 Slavic
20.5 Paleo_Balkan
12.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.0 Germanic
Target: Serb
Distance: 0.2770% / 0.27701247
58.1 Slavic
32.9 Paleo_Balkan
9.0 Eastern_Mediterranean
Target: Romanian
Distance: 0.1373% / 0.13727092
49.5 Slavic
32.3 Paleo_Balkan
16.4 Eastern_Mediterranean
1.8 Turkic
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.1487% / 0.14873144
46.0 Slavic
31.0 Paleo_Balkan
23.0 Eastern_Mediterranean
Target: Pomak_Greece
Distance: 0.9382% / 0.93822173
53.3 Slavic
31.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
15.4 Paleo_Balkan
Target: Pomak_Bulgaria
Distance: 0.7119% / 0.71192413
50.1 Slavic
25.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
24.2 Paleo_Balkan
Target: Macedonian
Distance: 0.8313% / 0.83126767
44.2 Paleo_Balkan
41.0 Slavic
14.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.1054% / 1.10536391
51.8 Paleo_Balkan
33.0 Slavic
15.2 Eastern_Mediterranean
https://i.imgur.com/TzlAtq7.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Varda
This is probably better calculator, because paleo-Balkan samples are different than East Med that came during Roman Empire colonisation.Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonSense
For sure. Just look at the example of Bulgarians and Macedonians. Using the former cacluator the only difference between the two that you would notice is that Bulgarians have somewhat more Slavic admixture. However, if you break down the Paleo-Balkan and Roman into two, we can see that Bulgarians also have more "Roman", East Med admix and less Iron Age Balkans. This is true in particular for Pomaks who could basically be modelled as East Slav + Cretean :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dušan
In order to find out, we need to understand what Slavic means, so let's start with the beginning:
Historically, man broke away from the monkey in Africa a long time ago. So that is the origin of the Slavic language, because that is where man began to speak.
Then man migrated all over the globe where there were the necessary conditions for survival.
Coexistence at great distances between groups of people has made people's languages differ significantly. Thus, the more distant 2 groups of people were, the more likely there is that their language (but also the phenotype / genotype) will be more distant.
But there have always been migrations. Migrations occurred for infinite reasons, and mainly all had a common goal: a better life. But the way these migrations took place was different: wars, invasions, rapes, religions, the nomadic spirit, and the simple desire to explore the world (because man was not created to stand still).
All this made the original human populations in Africa, which arrived on new continents and formed a certain isolated culture, to mix with other isolated cultures.
But don't forget, in the beginning there was only one culture and one language, in Africa, where man appeared.
But look, the cultures mixed together with the phenotypes and genotypes.
This flow of mixing cultures has been unceasing since the advent of man.
The results of the mixes were always a unique culture, a unique genotype, a unique phenotype, a unique language, a unique culture.
If we talk about the Slavic language, we know that the Proto-Slavic language was the result of a unique culture, a unique mix and a unique destiny.
We cannot speak of the Slavic language as originating in the area of Belarus (and neighboring countries), until we understand that there was only a uniqueness, consisting of mixtures of populations and older from all continents of the world and a constant flow of migration.
Well, this is how the languages from which today are spoken the languages classified as Slavic (Eastern, Western and Southern) were formed.
We cannot say that I2 is not Slavic, because the Balkans and the area of formation of the original Slavic language were not very far away.
Therefore, Slavic languages and Balkan languages have always been slightly similar, Balkan components played an important role in the formation of the first unique Slavic culture. And Nordic components have always played an important role in forming the first unique culture of Balkan languages.
But people like to create borders and differences, so people have created a border and a difference between south and north.
The Slavic languages were in the north and the Balkan languages in the south.
Also, the genetics (along with the phenotype) of the Slavs was represented by a Nordic image, while the Balkan languages were related to the south.
Differences between north and south became bigger while these 2 areas created a bigger difference, they put stable borders, they created different and unique cultures.
Therefore, the Balkans were not Slavs, and the Slavs were no longer Balkans (Although they were always the same).
A few more years pass, and the Slavs migrate in this continuous flow to the south, that is, to the Balkans.
A few more years pass, and the 100% Slavic language no longer exists, because man does not stand still, the language evolves, catches new influences, and even without influences people simply change their words (finding a better, more beautiful one, an accent more interesting, more pleasant, more melodious, etc.).
Because there is no longer 100% Slavic, there is only 100% modern Slavic, both the Eastern, Western and Southern Slavs represent 100% modern Slavic. The conclusion is clear: I2 is Slavic too, and I2 has always been Slavic because it played an important role in the formation of the first Slavic language in the north due to the continuous flow, and there would be no Slavic language without influence from Balkans at a very short distance.
Also:
The oldest history is not written. We know that the Slavs formed around Belarus (and neighboring countries), but we cannot say that there was only one other population that was Slavicized by people from the Balkans who spoke a Slavic language, they migrated to Belarus ( and neighboring countries), Slavized, and in the meantime in the Balkans the Slavic language changed to a Balkan language, and then returned to its roots. (Slavic)
In fact, we humans know nothing, we just believe and research. So the chances like what I wrote above are not 0%.
So, what conclusion did you come to? '' Origins of I2a1: Is it Slavic? ''.
Each person will have a different conclusion, a different perspective, a different level of intelligence, a different education, different historical knowledge, in addition manipulation plays an important role. In general, the original Slavs are the ones who want the manipulators. The origin of the Slavs can be in Africa (scientific) or in Babylon (religious), there are 736 variants, 834 religions and 928 scientific variants. Choose one to believe.
For Moldavians works very bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonSense
Holy mother of essaysQuote:
Originally Posted by Catalyn
It doesn't seem particularly off to me:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
Target: Moldova_Ukrainian
Distance: 0.1413% / 0.14128064
88.2 Slavic
5.1 Eastern_Mediterranean
4.1 Paleo_Balkan
1.9 Germanic
0.7 Turkic
Target: Moldova_South_Gagauzia
Distance: 0.2944% / 0.29444605
45.4 Slavic
30.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
24.0 Paleo_Balkan
0.3 Turkic
Target: Moldova_South
Distance: 0.1960% / 0.19595261
53.1 Slavic
28.0 Paleo_Balkan
16.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.0 Turkic
Target: Moldova_North
Distance: 0.4337% / 0.43366467
67.8 Slavic
15.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
12.8 Paleo_Balkan
2.1 Germanic
1.4 Turkic
Target: Moldova_Centre
Distance: 0.1433% / 0.14329267
62.6 Slavic
19.6 Paleo_Balkan
13.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.7 Turkic
1.2 Germanic
Target: Moldova_average
Distance: 0.0957% / 0.09569908
62.9 Slavic
20.3 Paleo_Balkan
13.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.1 Turkic
0.9 Germanic
In the north is more East Mediterranean than Paleo Balkan, which don't make any sense. In south where live many Gagauz is more normal since they score big amount of West Asian.Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonSense
For example people from Bălți city score more Paleo Balkan and are more Turkic, but people from surrounding areas score more East Mediterranean and less Turkic.
Target: Moldova_Balti_city_North
Distance: 0.1407% / 0.14066459
65.3 Slavic
21.5 Paleo_Balkan
9.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.8 Turkic
0.6 Germanic
Target: Moldova_Balti_North
Distance: 0.4366% / 0.43659500
65.8 Slavic
16.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
14.1 Paleo_Balkan
1.9 Turkic
1.4 Germanic
Plus this Turkic thing is dubious. For example in Bălți city live many Russians, and Russian modeled like this score big amount of Turkic, which again, don't make any sense.
Target: Russian_average
Distance: 2.4811% / 2.48110516
89.8 Slavic
10.2 Turkic
Target: Russian_Kargopol
Distance: 4.4628% / 4.46283164
84.3 Slavic
15.7 Turkic
Target: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 4.2846% / 4.28455183
85.7 Slavic
14.3 Turkic
Target: Russian_Northern_Dvina
Distance: 6.6735% / 6.67352070
84.6 Slavic
15.4 Turkic
Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 1.9616% / 1.96162070
100.0 Slavic
Target: Russian_Southwest
Distance: 1.5843% / 1.58434279
96.9 Slavic
3.1 Turkic
The model was made for Balkanites, not Russians. Their Siberian admix comes from a Uralic-like source (hence the much larger distances), which is not the case for Romanians and Moldavians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
And despite the minor flaws, it's the best model we can come up with right now. Once the samples from the Viminacium paper are published, we can make an even better one using over a dozen Iron Age samples, as well as our own local 'Romans' (instead of the ones from Italy), Goths, Sarmatians and the Early Slavic samples we already posess.
Haplogroup I2a1 was represented in the territory of Latvia already 6300 YBP among Mesolithic/Neolithic hunter-gatherers.
Source here: https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Ethnic_Groups
Catalyn is right. We need to understand what Slavic means.
I found some possible explanations in this article (i haven't checked everything yet, but sounds meaningful, just read and think):
Balto-Slavic
The late Sredny Stog Middle Dnieper Culture grew from conservative peripheral IE dialects related to Yamna Satem, with admixture of different assimilated indigenous peoples from Dnieper Donets and the Tripolye culture
of Central Europe, as well as subgroups of Centum Globular Amphora contributors (w/ TRB, BBC), and a host of others (<font size="2">re: remnant Middle Dnieper Repins,
Baden ( w/ R1a M420, M198 & M417) traders</font>). The ethnogenesis of these distinct dialects with assimilated indigenous peoples formed various diverse regional "Balto-Slavic" creole speakers, which were localized as the poly-ethnic "<i>Europeanized </i>" peripheral Satem creole dialects of Baltic and Slavic closely related to early Pit-grave Âryan, yet distinctly different even then, with diverse degrees of admixture
within regional subgroups. The Balto-Slavic type poly-ethnic Middle Dnieper culture was a fusion of diverse ethnic groups - a melting pot - so to speak, with a "retro" core of Satem creole dialects.
* TRB: Funnelbeaker culture
* BBC: Bell Beaker culture
Full source: http://suduva.com/virdainas/proto.htm
Sad non-Moldovan noisesQuote:
Originally Posted by CommonSense
https://i.ibb.co/Dry4CgM/image.png
In this region this model works bad. I tried same thing in Western Ukraine where people have visible Balkan influence. Same chaotic results.Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonSense
Target: Ukrainian_Lvivska
Distance: 0.3154% / 0.31539606
82.2 Slavic
6.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
5.8 Germanic
5.3 Paleo_Balkan
Target: Ukrainian_Zakarpatska
Distance: 0.1466% / 0.14663590
77.9 Slavic
8.8 Paleo_Balkan
7.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
4.8 Germanic
1.2 Turkic
Target: Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivska
Distance: 0.2594% / 0.25944292
82.8 Slavic
15.5 Paleo_Balkan
1.1 Germanic
0.6 Eastern_Mediterranean
Target: Ukrainian_Ternopilska
Distance: 0.4907% / 0.49072481
73.6 Slavic
10.9 Germanic
8.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
6.7 Paleo_Balkan
Target: Ukrainian_Chernivetska
Distance: 0.3983% / 0.39831994
70.4 Slavic
18.4 Eastern_Mediterranean
7.5 Germanic
3.2 Paleo_Balkan
0.5 Turkic
In the north MD the most Turkic is the city of Bălți, where live many Russians, rest of region score less, but more Germanic.
Target: Moldova_Edinet_North
Distance: 0.2073% / 0.20726683
66.5 Slavic
17.3 Paleo_Balkan
12.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
3.3 Germanic
0.2 Turkic
Target: Moldova_Soroca_North
Distance: 0.2631% / 0.26313591
66.2 Slavic
17.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
10.4 Paleo_Balkan
3.9 Germanic
1.8 Turkic
Target: Moldova_Balti_North
Distance: 0.4424% / 0.44239707
66.2 Slavic
17.1 Eastern_Mediterranean
13.3 Paleo_Balkan
1.9 Turkic
1.5 Germanic
Target: Moldova_Balti_city_North
Distance: 0.1349% / 0.13489970
65.4 Slavic
21.4 Paleo_Balkan
9.6 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.8 Turkic
0.8 Germanic
Your nigga with the Ukrainian surname from Glodeni pushes into 8% and so do I. 2% is nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
But with Germanic something is dodgy. Balti city scores more NW Euro ancestry than Balti county, by a difference of 2%, probably due to admix with Ukrainians, who unlike Russians can comfortably push past 30%.
Though I removed 2 outlier samples from the city average:
<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;"></google-sheets-html-origin>
N_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian NE_African Sub-Saharan 31.58 28.15 14.20 2.22 17.21 1.23 2.15 0 1.86 0 1.40 0 0 26.54 37.53 12.93 9.52 6.52 2.11 1.42 0.52 2.04 0.89 0 0 0
The second one reminds me of this person from Balti, who is 10/16 Ukrainian and 6/16 Moldovan/Romanian, which someone from this forum posted here:
<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;"></google-sheets-html-origin>
N_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian NE_African Sub-Saharan 27.18 36.15 11.95 9.09 9.72 2.43 0.98 0 2.06 0 0.22 0.23 0
There’s sarmatian samples too? I think the Goth samples were actually Lombards, they’re Z58 from what I’ve seen. The goths from wielbark and two Crimean goths that were tested are Z63. Also no P109 which shows it clearly came later on with the Normans.Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonSense
There are several samples that fall into the Central-North Euro cluster. I'm not sure if they're really all 'Goths', but I guess they would be a good proxy for what historians and other researchers call 'Eastern Germanic'. And two of the samples are clearly Central-East Euro Sarmatians:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
https://i.ibb.co/KWB8Gfp/New-Project-7.jpg
Sarmatians were already available from Moldova. Also CimmeriansQuote:
Originally Posted by Dick
they are all Luthers
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...#famous_people