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According to Dienekes apparently Indo-Europeans were Bronze Age invaders from West Asia who carried the Y-DNA J2a and the WestAsian autosomal component.
While the second opinion which is supported by more geneticists is that Indo-Europeans originate somewhere from Central-Eastern Europe and carried the R1a1a male lineage.
What is your opinion,where did IE people originate?
I believe in the theory of Dienekes, because it furnishes lots of proofs, isn't based on stereotypes, and much more.
A possible explanation od Indo-Europeanization of Western Europe is that the West Asian component in Europe was (and is) found in significative presence among Westerners, with exception of Basques. This West Asian component is the Indo-European factor, it Indo-Europeanized R1b and autochtonous haplogroups (I1, I2, etc.).
"Anatolian Hypothesis still the best hypothesis"
http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2011/04/...neolithic.html
West Asia
The spread of R1a1a reflects well the spread of Indo-European languages from Central-East Europe.
http://www.tiggernut.com/Mito/R1a-map.jpg
http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320His...nguagesmap.jpg
R1a originated in Central Asia-India, and everybody accepts that IE languages didn't develop and born there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus
In adding to the map of R1a and languages above, the clades in India and Central Asia are different from the ones in Europe. You need to pay attenction to clades.
That's the old theory. R1a originated in West Asia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Protospatha
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4776/byeurogenes.png
Yes but not specific R1a1a clades associated with the Indo-European language which diversity is highest in Central-East Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Protospatha
Aryans/Indo-Europeans were always a small minority of rulers, and we can see that in every people of Indo-European origins.
An example is in the satem languages, here's a post of mine in another forum:
"WESTERN IRANIC-SPEAKING GROUPS:
Iraqi Kurds:
J2 - 28.4%
R1b - 16.8%
R1a - 11.6%
G - 4.2%
Turkey Kurds:
J - 20%
R1a - 19,5%
R1b - 6%
G - 4%
North Iranians:
R - 27,27%
J2 - 24%
G - 15,15%
South Iranians:
R - 25,64%
G - 25,64%
J2 - 23%
Balochi:
R1a - 28%
J - 16%
R1b - 8%
EASTERN IRANIC-SPEAKING GROUPS:
Yaghnobi:
J - 32%
R1b/R1 - 32%
R1a - 16%
Tajiks:
R1a - 44,7%
J - 18,4%
Pamiri:
J2 - 6,1%
Southern Afghanistan Pashtuns:
R1a1a - 66,8%
G2 - 8,2%
J2 - 4,8%
R1b1b2 - 0,6%
Northern Afghanistan Pashtuns:
R1a1a - 50%
G2 - 7%
J2 - 4,5%
North-Ossetians (Iron):
G - 74,3%
J2 - 18,3%
R1b - 3%
R1a - 0,4%
North-Ossetians (Digor):
G - 60,6%
R1b - 16,5%
J2 - 11,8%
R1a - 0,8%
INDO-ARYAN-SPEAKING GROUPS:
Pakistani:
R1a - 24,4%
J - 15,3%
R1b - 7,4%
G - 6,2%
Indian IEs:
R1a - 29,8%
J - 10,7%
R1b - 1,5%
G - 0,5%
ISOLATED IE GROUPS IN SOUTH ASIA
Kalash:
G - 18,2%
R1a - 18,2%
J2 - 9,1%"
I personally believe thath Multan-Lahore (Indo Valley) civilization was the uhremeit of the Indoeuropeans people: take a look of the position...this would also explain why pseudo/para-white people are also diffused in the surrounding areas.
http://digilander.libero.it/corsinis....vallindia.gif
Indo Valley civilization was very advanced, with lost knowleges and a mysterious end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perduellio
I do not necessarily think that it was the "Urheimat", but it was surely IE. I agree with you.
Harappans were IE: http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-d...2012-04-02.pdf
Indus Valley language is Aryan: My book Sanskrit Eloquent Indus Seals conclusively proves based on rigorous logical arguments that the language of the ancient Indus Valley is Sanskrit. The following text is from the Ebook,
Sanskrit Eloquent Indus Seals by R V Muraleedharan
An Indus Seal with 4 symbols and 30 readings
I have selected an Indus seal that was unearthed from the Indus Valley site of Kalibangan in the state of Rajasthan in India. The seal is mostly engraved with symbols of numerals that could be given uncontroversial phonetic values. The seal depicts a milieu of three characters, a man, a strange animal and a tree. The scene has many oddities that seem to be deliberately incorporated by the seal maker so that the depiction may conform to the text written on the seal.
1) A man sits on a tree. 2) The man has an unusually narrow belly. 3) The man sits with his legs crossed. 4) He sits on a leaf of the tree. 5) He raises his hand. 6) The strange animal has human-like face and legs.
In spite of the complexity of the depicted scenery the scripts on the seal are relatively simple; a human figure with additional markings on the body, 7 strokes and another 3 strokes. For now, we will neglect the additional markings on the human figure. Fortunately, the three symbols are clear-cut and noncontroversial; 3, 7 and a man. Though there are many terms for the word ‘man’ in Sanskrit, we will choose the most commonly used term mAnusha, of which man is a shortened English form. The combination of English terms (from the right to the left)
3 + 7 + man
three + seven + man
This, in Sanskrit, adds up as:
thra + sapta + mAnusha
(thra = 3; sapta = 7; mAnusha = man)
1) Sanskrit Reading: tharu sambaddha mAnusha
Meaning of Sanskrit words: (tharu = to a tree; sambaddha = attached; mAnusha = a man)
English Translation of the reading : A man attached to a tree.
2) Sanskrit Reading: udara sambAdha mAnusha
Meaning of Sanskrit words: udara = belly; sambAdha = narrow; mAnusha = man
English Translation of the reading: A man with a narrow belly.
The above scripts can be read in the reverse order too!
The combination of symbols in Sanskrit is:
mAnusha + sapta + thra
(mAnusha = man; sapta = 7; thra = 3)
........ Cont’d............
6) Sanskrit Reading: mAnushasya pAda thAra
Meaning of Sanskrit words: (mAnushasya = man’s; pAda = legs; thAra =crossing)
English Translation of the reading: Man’s legs are crossing.
7) Sanskrit Reading: mAnusha Asya pAda thAra
Meaning of Sanskrit words: (mAnusha = man; Asya = sits; pAda = leg; thAra = crossing)
English Translation of the reading: Man sits with legs crossed.
The vestiges of these ancient Sanskrit terms in modern English can be attested by reading the above symbols as “tree’s bound man” and “trans-foot man”!
We will now take into account the neglected extra markings on the human figure and examine how this changes the reading. The man seems to carry an open rectangular structure on his shoulders. The ingenuity of the script writer is manifested here. The man on the tree has his palm raised up; likewise the human figure in the script lifts up a contraption on his shoulder. The contraption looks like the beam of a balance. In Sanskrit the palm of the hand is called tAla. The prefix ud in Sanskrit denotes motion upwards. Adding this to the noun tAla, the term uttAla means the palm lifted up. A balance or the beam of a balance is termed by the word tola, rhyming with tAla, the palm. Following similar arguments, uttola denotes a lifted up balance or a beam of balance the man is depicted to hold.
........ Cont’d............
Well, in fact the above reading is true to the last letter! If you observe the Monster’s face closely you will find that there are holes around the neck suggesting that its face is indeed an attachment! The presence of the holes is confirmed in the next reading!
24) Sanskrit Reading: uttAla mAnusha Asyah bhiddha dhara
Meaning of Sanskrit words: (uttala = monster; mAnusha = man; Asyah = face; bhiddha = dissected; dhara = bears)
English Translation of the reading: The monster bears a dissected human face
We have, in fact, covered most of the peculiarities of the pictorial depiction encoded by the script of the seal. But there are still other readings that are not figuratively portrayed.
25) Sanskrit Reading: tAla mAnusha shabda dhara
Meaning of Sanskrit words: (tAla = palm-leaf; mAnusha = man; shabda = voice; dhara = bears)
English Translation of the reading: The palm-leaf bears man’s voice
........ Cont’d............
Now we will try to get a glimpse of the practical application of the seal. Apart from captioning the accompanying picture, does the script signify anything? The Harappan archaeologists claim that the seals are used to seal the goods produced in the Indus Valley. These seals, therefore, encode the identity of its owners. If we assume such a theoretical possibility does the above seal contain the identity of any person? Yes, there is an ancient name homophonous to uttAla mentioned in Mahabharata.
(From Adiparvam, Mahabharata)
yasmAd bhavAn kedArakhandam avadAryotthitas tasmAd bhavAn uddAlaka eva nAmnA bhavishyatIti
Translation: Since you have erected a dyke, you will be named Uddalaka.
28) Sanskrit Reading: uddAla mAnusha sampat dhara
Meaning of Sanskrit words: (uddAla = the name of a man; mAnusha = man; sampat = property, goods; dhara = bears)
English Translation of the reading: Carrying the goods of the man, Uddala.
........ Cont’d............
We read an obscure Indus seal scribbled with 2 numerals and 2 symbols in 30 different ways! This is proof enough that the Indus script is eloquent, and that too in the Aryan tongue of Sanskrit!
http://www.readindus.com/
I think instead that this was the true origins: this civilization ended in 2500 B.C. circa...after this, probabily indoeuros migrated to the north, in the ancient North Caucasus/Volga regions, and after they widespread into all Europe and Caucasus, plus Anatolia; this would explain why legend talk about people "came from North" (doric, hittites,etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Protospatha
Another group remained in the area and formed modern pakistani and indians indoeuropean speakers (Pashtuns, Khalas, Punjabi, etc), while others formed the proto-iranid people.
I personally don't believe in Von Sebottendorf and Hitler theories about an ancient "north euro civilization", because there aren't any material, historical and mythological evidence of this theory.
That is just wishfull thinking.As i have already said all facts point a migration from Central-Eastern Europe toward Asia not the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perduellio
SourceQuote:
There's a new paper out at PNAS covering the origin and spread of horse domestication, as inferred from the DNA of living horses from across the Eurasian steppes. According to the authors, Warmuth et al., horses were first domesticated on the western steppe - what is now Ukraine, Southwest Russia and Western Kazakhstan. Apparently, the people responsible then migrated deep into Asia, possibly on horseback, and added wild horses to their herds as they moved.
That is Indo-Europeans were the first to use the horse in their expansion and warfare,and that gived them a lot of advantage.
^^ Yes, but where did those Indus Valley people come from? From the area of origin of J2 and G: Anatolia.
But this can work with my theory: the region you mentioned were the second stop of the indoeuropean proto euro people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus
Highest diversity of J2 is found in Caucasus and the highest percentage of WestAsian/Caucasus component is found among non-Indo European speaking people in Caucasus so that is totally invalid.Moreover G or specifically G2a has absolutely nothing to do with IE people they were early Neolithic Sardinian like farmers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Protospatha
I've personally another theories about a common very ancient roots (9-8000 B.C. circa) of indoeuropeans and (ancient) semithic people.
"A common ancestor for Indo-European and Hurrian"Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus
http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2011/02/...opean-and.html
G is found in Aryan castes too and more than 18% in Kalash.
This is not about personal theories.It is about interpreting what scholars believe and what arguments and facts provide.So yours and Protospatha theories are not backed up by serious scholars except the fully biased Dienekes who wants to make Greeks as the most IE people.He is just butthurt because he speaks a language that has nothing to do with his ancestors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perduellio
I think real urheimat of IE languages was Central Asia and people from andronovo-culture were first IE speakers.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...an_origins.png
Do not return on political facts, please.:coffee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus
The fact that Harappa civilization was the most ancient indoeuropean advanced civilization is an evidence, not a dienekes theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus
And no-one here has spoken of "greek purity".
You really believe that uber-weiss aryan Vrill inhabited Northern Europe after Thule island sinking, and after they mixed with untermenschen, unless in ancient Germany, like Von Sebottendorf Nietsche and after Hitler (but also Madame Blavatsky theosophy) believed? I find this pseudo-science hard to believe, sincerely.
symbols in indo valley and Isle of pascua (older than 5000 years)Quote:
Originally Posted by Perduellio
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/at...rioatlan22.gif
I read firstly this theory (Rapa Nui - Vallindian connection) here, when i was a child. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by gold_fenix
http://bvzm.files.wordpress.com/2008...if?w=460&h=612
This has nothing to do with Aryan and Untermensch things.It is just that PIE people were extremely warlike and patriarchal so they didn't include any foreign male into their group meanwhile the female lineages were quite diverse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perduellio
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/.../R1a-chart.gif
Oh, really mister Aryan? And why is there J2 and G only in upper caste India?Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus
http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2008/08/...-brahmins.html
Take also a look at the frequencies of J2 and G in Indo-Iranian speaking groups.
J2 and G Aryans included (for their luck) R1a nomads.
Let stay apart mDna...let's talk in a cultural and cultural-evolution way.
Also some nigerian yourba carry I2b haplogrup, but this don't mean that they're skandos.
God you are such annoying with J2 and G.I am telling you J2 was native to Iran-Caucasus and has nothing to do with PIE you are obsessed with these lineages.Upper caste India has also the R1a that explains things well.You just have found a miniscule universe here and repeat the J2/G thing constantly.Your opinion is based by obsessions not facts and arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Protospatha
You said they didn't include foreign admixtures. You are annoying with Slavo-supremacy R1a. Try to find convincing arguments and show me why Indo-Europeans didn't originate in West Asia instead of repeating the same things every one other tells me all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus
R1a in India is Z-93, not M458.
I've shown a lot of papers and proofs, I don't see yours.
In this website you'll find hundreds of papers that demonstrates you all that Aryans were farmers. http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/en/default_en.asp
Saraswati river mentioned by RgVeda proves that the Aryan culture in India is present at least by 4000-6000 b.C. This marries perfectly with the age of J2 and G in India.
R1a is not Slavic haplogroup it is Proto Indo-European.Slavic is just linguistical notion and I2a2 is a more South Slavic marker than R1a therefore it has nothing to do with supremacy thing don't try to put words in my mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Protospatha
The Y-DNA of Tarim Basin mummies associated with the Indo-European speaking Tocharians.Quote:
Phylogeography of R1a1 Y-chromosomal haplogroup and genetic history of Indo-Europeans. V. A. Stepanov, V. N. Kharkov Institute for Medical Genetics, Tomsk, Russian Federation.
Recent discussion of the prehistoric spreading of the Indo-European language group has generally concentrated on two alternative hypotheses: so-called “Kurgan Culture” hypothesis, which places the homeland of proto-Indo-Europeans to the Steppe of Eastern Europe, and alternative hypothesis of the spread of farmers from the Near East (Anatolia) to Europe in the Neolithic times. Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a1, lineage is thought to have originated in the Eurasian Steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas, seems to be associated with the Kurgan culture. Three geographic areas with the highest frequency of R1a1 haplogroup were revealed: Eastern Europe; Southern Siberia and Hindustan where the highest diversity of microsatellite haplotypes was observed. Phylogenetic analysis of microsatellite haplotypes demonstrates the presence of three corresponding major clusters with the age of the generation of haplotytic diversity of 7.2-12.5 ky. The highest diversity in Hindustani is related to the presence of haplotypes of Indo-Pakistani and Southern Siberian clusters in the population from India and Pakistan, probably due to relatively recent migrations from Central Asia. The age of the cluster admittedly brought to Hindustan from Central Asia / Southern Siberia is 3,9 +/- 1,3 ky. Probably, the primary center of the generation of diversity and expansion of R1a1a was the territory of the Eastern European Steppe. With the spread of of R1a1 carriers, secondary centers of genetic diversity and population expansions were formed in the Southern Siberia and Hindustan.
...
Estimating a date of mixture of ancestral South Asian populations. P. Moorjani1,2, N. Patterson2, P. Govindaraj3, L. Singh3,4,5, K. Thangaraj3,5, D. Reich1,2,5 1) Dept Gen, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA; 2) Broad Institute, Cambridge, MA; 3) Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad, India; 4) Genome Foundation, Hyderabad, India; 5) These authors co-directed the project.
Linguistic and genetic studies have shown that most Indian groups have ancestry from two genetically divergent populations, Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and Ancestral South Indians (ASI). However, the date of mixture still remains unknown. We analyze genome-wide data from about 60 South Asian groups using a newly developed method that utilizes information related to admixture linkage disequilibrium to estimate mixture dates. Our analyses suggest that major ANI-ASI mixture occurred in the ancestors of both northern and southern Indians 1,200-3,500 years ago, overlapping the time when Indo-European languages first began to be spoken in the subcontinent. These results suggest that this formative period of Indian history was accompanied by mixtures between two highly diverged populations, although our results do not rule other, older ANI-ASI admixture events. A cultural shift subsequently led to widespread endogamy, which decreased the rate of additional population mixtures.
SourceQuote:
Fifteen individuals' AMG amplicons were obtained from the 20 Xiaohe individuals (whose mtDNA was successfully amplified), among which seven individuals were identified as male and eight as female. The Y chromosome haplogroup of the seven males were all assigned to haplogroup R1a1a through screening the Y-SNPs at M89, M9, M45, M173 and M198 successively. Haplogroup R1a1a is widely distributed in Eurasia: it is mainly found in Eastern Europe, Central Asia, South Asia, Siberia, ancient Siberia, but rare in East Asia
That happened because the Saraswati dried up and people migrated to other regions of India, simply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus
Another one:
"'The Horse and the Aryan Debate' by Michel Danino
This paper examines the latest evidence and shows that the horse was known and present in the Indus-Saraswati Culture in the mid-third millennium BCE and therefore was not brought by the hypothetical invasion/immigration of the Indoaryans into India c 1500 BCE."
PDF here: http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/i...yan_Debate.pdf
And another:
"'Genetics and the Aryan Debate' by Michel Danino
This paper examines the latest genetic evidence which shows that there was no invasion or immigration into N-W India in significant numbers before 600 BCE. It was published in Puratattva, Bulletin of the Indian Archaeological Society, New Delhi, No. 36, 2005-06, pp. 146-154."
PDF: http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/i...yan_Debate.pdf
"'The RV predates the Sindhu-Sarasvati Culture' by N. Kazanas
This paper was presented synoptically by Dr N. Kazanas at the Conference THE SINDHU-SARASVATI VALLEY CIVILIZATION: A REAPPRAISAL, in Los Angeles (Feb 2009).
Argument: There are misconceptions about rigvedic pur, ratha and samudra based on the Aryan Invasion/Immigration myth. Then, there are some 10 characteristic features of the Sarasvati-Sindhu Culture which are not found in the Rig Veda. Moreover palaeoastronomical evidence (mainly N. Achar's work) places some BrAhmaNa texts c 3000 and the oldest layers of the MahAbhArata 3067. All this (and more) suggests that the (bulk of the) Rig Veda should be assigned to well before 3200 BCE - however unpalatable to mainstream thought this may be."
PDF: http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/indology/RPSSC.pdf
So, I've demonstrated that J2/G had the horse, no invasion until 600 B.C. and that the Rig Vedic Civilization was pre-Harappan, what else do you want?
Oh, Tarim mummies weren't neither Tocharian, nor Indo-European. Tocharian language is attested by 600-800 A.D., and ths fits well with the more recent mummies of 2000 years ago that were J2 and G.
Haplogroups frequency in modern Uyghur:
Uygur/Urumqi:
1/31 = 3.2% Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K) (This could be B, F*, G, H, or I, but, judging from other sources of Uyghur Y-DNA data, it is most likely G-M201.)
1/31 = 3.2% C*(xC1, C3) (This might be related to haplogroup C5-M356, which has been found in South Asia and Arabia.)
2/31 = 6.5% E
8/31 = 25.8% J
1/31 = 3.2% N1*-LLY22g(xN1a, N1b, N1c)
2/31 = 6.5% N1b
1/31 = 3.2% O1a
1/31 = 3.2% O3a3c*-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)
1/31 = 3.2% O3a3c1-M117
6/31 = 19.4% P*(xR1a) (This could be P*, Q, R*, R1b, or R2. I would guess that it is mostly R1b, mixed with smaller numbers of Q and R2.)
7/31 = 22.6% R1a
Uygur/Yili:
8/39 = 20.5% Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K) (This would be one of the highest frequencies of haplogroup G in the entire world if it were really all G-M201.)
1/39 = 2.6% C*(xC1, C3)
3/39 = 7.7% C3c
1/39 = 2.6% DE(xE)
5/39 = 12.8% K*(xNO, P)
1/39 = 2.6% N1*-LLY22g(xN1a, N1b, N1c)
2/39 = 5.1% N1c1
2/39 = 5.1% O3*
2/39 = 5.1% O3a3c*-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)
2/39 = 5.1% O3a3c1-M117
6/39 = 15.4% P*(xR1a)
6/39 = 15.4% R1a
This map of Swastikas shows clearly that a movement south-north happened in its diffusion, and the spreader must be Neolithic farmers:
http://www.richardcassaro.com/wp-con...Yale-Study.png