Who, genetically, are the least Slavic of the Slavs?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Italians are not southern shifted for their location, what are you talking about? And no, I don't want this to be used because I have much better ancient models.

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Yes, they are. Even Italians from Marche which is closer to Alps than to Calabria or Sicily have East Med as the strongest component. Calabria/Sicily are on the same latitude as Andalucia, and Andalucians are quite more northern shifted than Calabrians and Sicilians.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Balkan Slavs are heavily Slavic dumbass. We are northern shifted for our location because we came there in medieval. Of course Slavic genetics is alien to southern Europe.

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:picard1:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Here are more realistic models for Serbs/Slovenians with modern proxies (and yes, I won't artifically reduce the fit by overfitting)

Target: Serb
Distance: 2.6352% / 2.63517890

51.4 Belarusian_Minsk
48.6 Italian_Abruzzo

Target: Slovenian
Distance: 2.6332% / 2.63320865

56.8 Belarusian_Minsk
43.2 Italian_Veneto

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 1.9240% / 1.92395683

42.3 Belarusian_Minsk
32.5 Italian_Marche
25.2 Italian_Molise



Btw, ethnogenesis of Serbs according to them happened in Illyrian territory which is on level of central Italy, so modeling their pre-Slavic part with something very southern only to increase Slavic percentage is incorrect.

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:o

Even Italian Abbruzo average you mentioned is very close to Southern Italian, and to Greek islanders.

https://i.imgur.com/KO8ZeqJ.png


We could be modeled as Northern Slavs and Southern Italians. Deal with it.

https://i.imgur.com/n0BcQdp.png

Macedonia and Bulgaria

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Varda

Yes, they are. Even Italians from Marche which is closer to Alps than to Calabria or Sicily have East Med as the strongest component. Calabria/Sicily are on the same latitude as Andalucia, and Andalucians are quite more northern shifted than Calabrians and Sicilians.

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No. Andalusians descend from northern Spaniards settled after reconquista.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dušan

:o

Even Italian Abbruzo average you mentioned is very close to Southern Italian, and to Greek islanders.

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It's not a deep south Italian and that was just a modern model which is irrelevant. I posted G25 models above with actual ancient samples.

Quote:

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We could be modeled as Northern Slavs and Southern Italians. Deal with it.

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Irrelevant, neither are north Slavs pure Slavs and neither were Paleo Balkanites like south Italians.
And btw, ancient samples like Sunghir aren't pure either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

No. Andalusians descend from northern Spaniards settled after reconquista.

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Andalucians are not genetic twins of northern Spanians, they more southern shifted than northerners.

You can compare every region of Italy and Iberia which are on the same latitude, and Iberians are always more northern shifted.

Pure Slavs were like this:

(Balto-)Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.08 1458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0 .004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001,0.129758,0.125 926,0.075424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0 .010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009,0.126344,0.127 957,0.067127,0.070737,0.042162,0.02008,0.011281,0. 014999,-0.001023,-0.032802,-0.001949,-0.01124,0.017542,0.01968,-0.012893,0.007558,0.011604,0.00114,0.005782,0.0115 06,-0.010357,0.003091,0.007765,-0.008796,-0.001676
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011,0.125205,0.129 988,0.078818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0 .006692,0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952
(Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0 .078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.00429 5,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
(Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0 .081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.0106 35,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275

this is how they score on G25:

Spoiler!

Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011
0.02177898 Belarusian
0.02424324 Russian_Smolensk
0.02738113 Lithuanian_PA
0.02942821 Lithuanian_VZ
0.02946380 Russian_Voronez
0.02991857 Lithuanian_VA
0.03109674 Russian_Pskov
0.03132255 Polish
0.03168777 Polish_Kashubian
0.03227394 Ukrainian
0.03237800 Lithuanian_RA
0.03264673 Russian_Kaluga
0.03270447 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03272948 Russian_Orel
0.03371607 Russian_Kursk
0.03467135 Russian_Belgorod
0.03512026 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03537807 Estonian
0.03608033 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03658083 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03819133 Russian_Ryazan
0.03840680 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03893276 Latvian
0.03998910 Russian_Tver
0.04858666 Slovakian


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH28
0.03697758 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03838355 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04026342 Belarusian
0.04048938 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04129101 Lithuanian_VA
0.04220974 Lithuanian_RA
0.04285783 Russian_Smolensk
0.04314206 Lithuanian_PA
0.04364380 Russian_Pskov
0.04365806 Latvian
0.04497713 Estonian
0.04635229 Russian_Kaluga
0.04739289 Polish_Kashubian
0.04856789 Russian_Voronez
0.05091211 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.05175280 Russian_Kursk
0.05201166 Polish
0.05207170 Russian_Belgorod
0.05212985 Russian_Orel
0.05349331 Ukrainian
0.05539713 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.05598137 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.05742021 Russian_Tver
0.05757977 Russian_Ryazan
0.06922380 Czech


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH13
0.02959238 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03078994 Lithuanian_VA
0.03210870 Lithuanian_RA
0.03262025 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03324002 Lithuanian_PA
0.03340955 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03424146 Belarusian
0.03594568 Russian_Pskov
0.03619425 Latvian
0.03635970 Russian_Smolensk
0.04173181 Russian_Kaluga
0.04233442 Russian_Voronez
0.04401853 Estonian
0.04413051 Russian_Orel
0.04484457 Polish_Kashubian
0.04543079 Ukrainian
0.04610116 Russian_Kursk
0.04629550 Polish
0.04641076 Russian_Belgorod
0.04758354 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.04843990 Russian_Tver
0.04908628 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04979615 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.05057829 Russian_Ryazan
0.06289456 Slovakian


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009
0.02619433 Lithuanian_PA
0.02623942 Lithuanian_VA
0.02750444 Ukrainian
0.02756525 Russian_Kursk
0.02800635 Russian_Pskov
0.02883002 Russian_Voronez
0.02925384 Belarusian
0.02942825 Russian_Belgorod
0.02993988 Russian_Smolensk
0.03057635 Polish
0.03094735 Russian_Orel
0.03102981 Lithuanian_RA
0.03170694 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03223267 Russian_Kaluga
0.03270898 Russian_Ryazan
0.03372124 Russian_Tver
0.03522329 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03721137 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03731399 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03745611 Moldovan_o
0.03759956 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03787654 Slovakian
0.03943067 Estonian
0.04062850 Latvian
0.04344051 Lithuanian_PZ


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001
0.02972696 Lithuanian_PA
0.02995308 Lithuanian_VA
0.03089853 Russian_Pskov
0.03220180 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03277527 Ukrainian
0.03309396 Russian_Kursk
0.03317714 Polish
0.03436156 Russian_Voronez
0.03460398 Belarusian
0.03461603 Russian_Smolensk
0.03491057 Russian_Kaluga
0.03507617 Lithuanian_RA
0.03546241 Russian_Belgorod
0.03548980 Slovakian
0.03642165 Russian_Tver
0.03702802 Russian_Ryazan
0.03733954 Estonian
0.03738154 Russian_Orel
0.03855024 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03901147 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03936651 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.04065706 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04067358 Cossack_Kuban
0.04210816 Moldovan_o
0.04229780 Latvian


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2
0.02285860 Belarusian
0.02419895 Lithuanian_PA
0.02505394 Russian_Smolensk
0.02541556 Russian_Voronez
0.02674336 Ukrainian
0.02703831 Polish
0.02739533 Russian_Kursk
0.02773445 Russian_Orel
0.02828713 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02839289 Lithuanian_VA
0.02896030 Russian_Belgorod
0.02963633 Russian_Pskov
0.02966434 Russian_Kaluga
0.03185186 Russian_Ryazan
0.03197114 Russian_Tver
0.03214046 Lithuanian_RA
0.03226248 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03454520 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03495364 Estonian
0.03557356 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03823359 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03827265 Polish_Kashubian
0.03925891 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03970452 Latvian
0.03997270 Slovakian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Varda

Andalucians are not genetic twins of northern Spanians, they more southern shifted than northerners.

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They are not most southern Shifted Iberians at all if that is what you are implying.

Quote:

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You can compare every region of Italy and Iberia which are on the same latitude, and Iberians are always more northern shifted.

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Italy got heavily woggified with Imperial Romans but later got some additional northern input from migrating Germanics.
Iberians are most northern shifted southern Europeans.

My results when using above mentioned ancient Slavs and Illyrians from Croatia and Hungary (I remove Thracian from source who would artificaly increase my Slavic because I have zero Thracian)

Target: Stearsolina_scaled
Distance: 2.2310% / 0.02230987

60.2 (Balto-)Slavic
39.8 Balkan

I guess Macedonians or Bulgarians or Pomaks; The latter could maybe get under the proto Slav level of Macedonians if they additionally assimilated some Anatolian Turks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

If talking only about entire ethnicities, then Macedonians.

If also including the regional level, then the far northern Russians. For example, Pskov Russians are identical to Latvians, and Archangelsk Russians are like Finns with a bit more Siberian shift.

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I agree.

If you have G25 coords I'd be curious about the result in the calculator in my signature. I regard that calculator good, especially also the tranparency where the single ancient source samples are visible.

Here's a pic I made some time ago for a number of ethnicities out of that mentioned calculator. Here Bulgarians do have the lowest level (38.2%) among Slavic speakers. Unfortunately Macedonians are not contained in the table.

https://i.imgur.com/ErAgu23.jpg

EDIT: It seems not to be Macedonians as they seem to have more than Bulgarians:

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 0.7305% / 0.00730540
46.4 (Balto-)Slavic
37.0 Graeco-Roman
16.6 Balkan