Map of Europe showing WHG, Baltic HG, Yamnaya and Neolithic ancestry

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

early WHG like Bichon had no ANE, and late ones like Loschbour already have 5-10% ANE or EHG. he is referring to that.

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Correct. During the last glacial maximum there appears to be two slightly divergent WHG refugia in southern Europe one in Italy known as the Villabruna cluster and the other in Spain known as the El Miron cluster

Out of the two the Italian Villabruna cluster eventually became the dominant one in Europe and it appears that after the Ice Age some of those hunter-gatherers ventured into north eastern Europe and hybridized with a population similar to AG3.

This created a WHG-AG3 cline with EHG, which were about 70% AG3 and 30% WHG, on one pole and Latvia-HG and Mesolithic Ukraine-HG occupying intermediate positions on the cline and Loschbour-WHG close to the other pole.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/epw1vL4.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/MmlAcnj.png[/IMG]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/4bQaOue.jpg[/IMG]

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Originally Posted by Rethel

How end? It is just a one of separate au. That's it.

EHG+Bichon = WHG No
WHG+EHG = SHG Yes
EHG+AmInd = ANE No
EHG+CHG = Yamna. Yes

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Check the pca Zoro posted above and find me a Paleolithic HG to the right of the blue WHGs. There are none. The fact that Villabruna is slightly left of Bichon is irrelevant to the point WHG isn't a mix of some unknown Paleo/CM (whatever you call it) with EHG, they are part of the same cluster of WHG, it could even be explained by his R1 haplo but it might not even be the reason. Villabruna is slightly older than Bichon by the way.

On the other hand the re expansion of WHGs from their refuges created a cline as they met AG people in the northeast, making intermediates such as SHG, EHG and plenty others. It's like if you tell me Popovo isn't EHG because he appears slightly more WHG admixed than Karelia, it's not the point, he is an EHG. What you can see clearly however is that everything falls onto a cline between Afontova Gora (descending from ANE) and WHGs (team blue). WHG isn't an intermediate of anything, everything else is however, in the two main directions of other Paleos.

ANE predates EHG and Amerindian as an ethnicity, they mixed with NE Asians on their way to America through Beringia. Same when you say ANE was castizo or something, makes no sense. You are actually calling Castizos your beloved IE, because the PIE should have been pretty heavily ANE/AG. That might be the best part afterall.

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Originally Posted by Petalpusher

Check the pca Zoro posted above and find me a Paleolithic HG to the right of the blue WHGs. There are none. The fact that Villabruna is slightly left of Bichon is irrelevant to the point WHG isn't a mix of some unknown Paleo/CM (whatever you call it) with EHG, they are part of the same cluster of WHG, it could even be explained by his R1 haplo but it might not even be the reason. Villabruna is slightly older than Bichon by the way.

On the other hand the re expansion of WHGs from their refuges created a cline as they met AG people in the northeast, making intermediates such as SHG, EHG and plenty others. It's like if you tell me Popovo isn't EHG because he appears slightly more WHG admixed than Karelia, it's not the point, he is an EHG. What you can see clearly however is that everything falls onto a cline between Afontova Gora (descending from ANE) and WHGs (team blue). WHG isn't an intermediate of anything, everything else is however, in the two main directions of other Paleos.

ANE predates EHG and Amerindian as an ethnicity, they mixed with NE Asians on their way to America through Beringia. Same when you say ANE was castizo or something, makes no sense. You are actually calling Castizos your beloved IE, because the PIE should have been pretty heavily ANE/AG. That might be the best part afterall.

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So WHGs are simply descendants of Cro-Magnons/Paleo-Euros without non-Euro admixture? Where would CMs plot on the PCA posted by Zoro, Bichon is example of a pure, unmixed CM?

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Originally Posted by Universe

So WHGs are simply descendants of Cro-Magnons/Paleo-Euros without non-Euro admixture? Where would CMs plot on the PCA posted by Zoro?

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That would be the Paleo groups on the left going up, and some others. Mesolithic descend partially from some of them but it's not like the ancient had necessarily non Euro admixture, some might, but in general they are just older, and the WHGs managed to remove themselves in isolation further. The more recent one tend to be more distant to East Asians, Africans and Oceanians. Vestonice seems to have a link with the Villabrunians cluster, Goyet for some of them like Loschbour, could be just common distant ancestry.

The term CM comes from the Dordogne skull that is 30ky old early Gravettian, so theorically he should have been more like the Paleos. Visually he looks like a WHG poster child but could be just proto WHG traits already in this individual. That was more a general term of a type from upper Paleo to mesolithic, before genetic came into play. We call all those ancients CM because we thought they were all the same but there was a structure already.

For the anecdote of the name itself, Cro means hole in old dialect from Perigord, and Magnon was just the name of the landlord of the time... so they called it Cro-Magnon, basically rock shelter in a hole on Magnon's land, where they found it.

https://marlin-prod.literatumonline....f234f/gr1c.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sD0Fzwpq/2016-Fu-Figure1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Universe

So WHGs are simply descendants of Cro-Magnons/Paleo-Euros without non-Euro admixture? Where would CMs plot on the PCA posted by Zoro, Bichon is example of a pure, unmixed CM?

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Yes, if anything, WHGs are more "Cro-Magnon" than actual Cro-Magnons, because they are as far away from other human populations as you can get.

Also, if Loschbour, etc had minor ANE(they probably did), Bichon likely did too. We already knew pops like Balkan_HG, Baltic_HG had ANE(because they can be modelled as earlier discovered samples of WHG and ANE/EHG, show both admixtures in supervised and unsupervised ADMIXTURE runs, and they are intermediary on a PCA between both populations), KO1 from Hungary was also thought to have ANE, and La Brana was thought to have minor EEF(he was pretty recent in terms of dating), but didn't know a person like Loschbour could have ANE because he was the furthest outlying population we had found thus far.

The purest WHGs thus far found are the ones recently found in mesolithic Central Italy(Bichon is closer to Villabruna), unsurprising as it's as far away(outside Iberia) from where ANE was in the east:

https://i.postimg.cc/pLsbRmYX/italypc2.png

btw random note, we know ANE probably did not cross the Volga west until atleast after 22k BC, because Dzudzuana in Georgia, a mix of WHG(proto-WHG that is, during the time of 22k BC WHG would've looked something like El Miron autosomally) and Basal Eurasian/Southern Caucasoid/Natufian, had 0 ANE, while CHG and modern Georgians have a lot.

Like Petalpusher said, various populations during the European paleolithic remained separated and had their own drift, but you cannot properly model WHG with paleo-Euros and any outside of Europe population, and WHG is outlying to both on a PCA plot, meaning WHG is just directly descended from paleolithic Europeans. More Iberian earlier WHGs will probably look like the Italian WHGs, again because Iberia is as far away from the east as possible, Iberia/Italy also had the highest population density of HGs in Europe given Iberian/Italian MN farmers had more WHG than even places like Germany, Hungary, UK, etc. Iberian HGs probably had more of the "El Miron" cluster group however, but it was pretty much the same thing as the proto-Villabruna cluster group. Again, like Petalpusher said, older, paleo-HGs had non-European affinity, but not non-European admixture, WHGs are basically "evolved" paleo Europeans.

Meanwhile, nutjob Rethel thinks EHG are the "pure" Europeans, when they are a simple mix of WHG and ANE(ANE is also a mix, but not as "simple", because it has a lot of its own drift too given the mix happened a very long time ago).

https://i.imgur.com/AESwXCN.jpg

Target: Hamilcar
Distance: 2.9112% / 0.02911248
28.6 MAR_Taforalt
26.4 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
11.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.2 Yoruba
2.0 WHG
0.6 Levant_PPNB
0.4 Mbuti


I don't see the point of putting two different anatolian sources. Also in the case of my people this EEF ancestry came with Iberia_N who already had absorbed some WHG (they were basically similar to modern-day sardinians).

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Originally Posted by Universe

So WHGs are simply descendants of Cro-Magnons/Paleo-Euros without non-Euro admixture? Where would CMs plot on the PCA posted by Zoro, Bichon is example of a pure, unmixed CM?

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Yes, WHG/Villabruna is probably just one branch of west eurasians which drifted away. The other branches were GoyetQ116, Kostenki/Sunghir and UHG (which we don't have samples of yet, but it must have existed.) , and later there were various hybrids of these 4 branches.

Bichon is just the earliest WHG/Villabruna sample we have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universe

So WHGs are simply descendants of Cro-Magnons/Paleo-Euros without non-Euro admixture? Where would CMs plot on the PCA posted by Zoro, Bichon is example of a pure, unmixed CM?

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this is one of the possible models which shows all of this:
https://i.imgur.com/07G2Wzf.png

some other studies show slightly different models but the main thread is the same.

Very interesting explanations I read in the previous posts. Could someone make like a hierarchical chart or list about which are the oldest known European, or West Eurasian groups of people, and are followed by which later groups, and approximately when they appeared, out of which older groups? So WHGs are the descendants of the oldest homo sapiens of Europe?

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Originally Posted by Dunai

Very interesting explanations I read in the previous posts. Could someone make like a hierarchical chart or list about which are the oldest known European, or West Eurasian groups of people, and are followed by which later groups, and approximately when they appeared, out of which older groups? So WHGs are the descendants of the oldest homo sapiens of Europe?

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something like this...

https://i.imgur.com/85ZOWCv.png