Printable View
You see, many would than like to see more refined Russian regional averages and I see it's possible to do. But I see you don't care about that. That's a pity but some of us are thinking differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Your choice not to make them, just like some choosed to do so for other countries.
Okay, I will stop posting about Germans. Why should I? I'm not German and they don't particularly like me either. Unlike fucking Piotr I don't have an agenda to present them as Slavic as possible. In fact I find the pure Volga Germans interesting precisely because they have preserved completely German(ic) genetics despite them being surrounded by Russians and other unrelated fuckers.
You don't need to stop anything, it is just not easy to understand why new averages bug you so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
if there's really no visible geographic pattern, just use the official Austrian regionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
You are right saying Russians do not have as many differences as some others. Why make 15 similar pops? In Russians the difference usually comes down to a percentage of East Eurasian/Mongoloid. Yes, a lot of people were resettled, deported or sent to faraway places, hard to deny that. My mother was born in Uzbekistan, I was born in Moscow oblast. But that isn't our fault. I actually love homogeneous, rooted communities that are tied to their land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
The only Upper Austrian I know is Mortimer xDQuote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
It's nice that you are genetically homogenous (except mini regions like far north etc), Belarusians also as well as vast majority of Ukrainians. But that's really not the case in Germany and even Austria (Austria is even more crazy because mountains I assume). Please understand we are trying to unify averages we get that are almost same genetically (in new update Baden-Württemberg state is just one average because they are all really similar, SW Germans in general are), but still keep relevant information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
My four grandparents were born in 4 different regions and 3 different countries, but that doesn't mean I don't care for deeply rooted regional patterns or think they are not worth to be recorded.
Among the Volga or Russian Germans you can find individuals like this.
North_Atlantic 48.01 Pct
Baltic 21.27 Pct
West_Med 15.83 Pct
West_Asian 2.25 Pct
East_Med 8.62 Pct
Red_Sea 2.88 Pct
South_Asian 0.23 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.91 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Dutch 4.98
2 Southeast_English 5.62
3 West_German 6.38
4 Southwest_English 6.98
5 French 7.27
6 Orcadian 8.06
7 North_Dutch 8.95
8 West_Scottish 9
9 Irish 9.15
10 Danish 9.24
11 North_German 9.55
12 Norwegian 11.28
13 Swedish 12.79
14 Austrian 12.96
15 Spanish_Cataluna 14.11
16 East_German 14.14
17 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 15.02
18 Spanish_Galicia 15.4
19 Portuguese 15.57
20 Southwest_French 15.8
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76.6% Southeast_English + 23.4% Portuguese @ 3.13
2 58.5% Southeast_English + 41.5% French @ 3.16
3 60.1% Norwegian + 39.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.17
4 66.1% North_Dutch + 33.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.19
5 76.5% Southeast_English + 23.5% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.19
6 76.1% Southeast_English + 23.9% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.21
7 63.7% North_Dutch + 36.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.21
8 57.6% Norwegian + 42.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.23
9 78% Southeast_English + 22% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.25
10 78.9% Southeast_English + 21.1% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.27
11 66.3% North_Dutch + 33.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.31
12 63% Danish + 37% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.33
13 91.2% Southeast_English + 8.8% Moroccan @ 3.33
14 91% Southeast_English + 9% Algerian @ 3.34
15 91.2% Southeast_English + 8.8% Tunisian @ 3.34
16 60.3% Norwegian + 39.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.36
17 65.4% Danish + 34.6% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.39
18 64.7% North_Dutch + 35.3% Portuguese @ 3.39
19 58.6% Norwegian + 41.4% Portuguese @ 3.42
20 91.3% Southeast_English + 8.7% Mozabite_Berber @ 3.42
The Baltic is lower than in some Irish/British people!
It's kind of odd. Carinthia and Styria have visible genetic profile that is Slovenian like. Burgenland is surprisingly different, not so Slavic/south Slavic and more "German shifted" but with notable Slavic also.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Tyrol looks Swiss like and between SW Germans and Alpine Italians. That's all fine.
Lower and Upper Austria/Salzburg are mess. Some are SW German like, some are Swiss like, some are Carinthian/Slavic shifted. And these people have deep ancestry in these areas.
We are trying to get few more samples from these regions to estimate what's best to do.
Okay. My problem is that when there are too many (similar) averages it will cause overfitting or unrealistic models. For example the Brandenburg outlier already popped up in some Slavo-Germanic results. I believe half Volga half Russian or something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Please keep the original German names, they are more colorful IMO :) "Pfalz" is better than "Palatinate" for ex.
Stearsolina, do you have in plans to update Polish/ Ukrainian averages or do you think they are good and need no update?
vbnetkhio did that last year. Poland is more homogeneous than Germany. Also a lot of resettled people from East to West.Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusz99
Its interesting that many Germans are genetically Scandinavian+Iberian influence. I expected Scandinavian+Eastern influence in Eastern Germans but not this in Western Germans.
but is there any kind of pattern? maybe a more complicated one, like those closer to Styria and Czechia are both more Slavic, and those in the middle less? if not, just make a geographical Upper and Lower Austrian average.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
That Brandenburg result is heavy outlier, but fully native there and has only German names in last 200 years if not more! That why it important to keep it, likely one smaller entire area of that state plots like that (to get such results with such continuity there must mean other people/Germans around were genetically like that as well).Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Btw Davidski uses that sample as example of Sorb, and that person isn't Sorb at all. It has only German names in family tree. Native Brandenburg kits are nightmare to find btw, rothaer searches them for years and nothing.
As for names, agree German names sound better. We wanted them to be more understandable for others, but if others don't mind, can't see why we couldn't use them.
Smaller averages are just when we aren't sure or expect genetic differences in rest of same state/region. For example there is Saxony Ore Mountains average because it was rather different from academic Leipzig samples we had, but in new average it will be gone, other verified Saxons aren't too different from them. Same for BW state, etc.
this is the final version of mine and Peterski's averages:Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusz99
this is not exactly the same as those on Vahaduo now, I don't know what happened there.Code:Poland_Lemko,27.74,37.63,14.89,7.34,9.48,0.24,0.42,0.58,0.56,0.60,0.52,0.00,0.00
Polish_Greater_Poland,31.45,43.92,10.26,5.30,5.52,0.80,0.87,0.09,0.23,0.65,0.48,0.37,0.06
Polish_Kielce,29.3,45.17,10.56,5.45,5.36,0.76,1.36,0.15,0.37,0.81,0.4,0.28,0.03
Polish_Kujawy,31.83,45.41,9.95,4.66,3.33,1.47,1.02,0.20,0.79,0.93,0.00,0.41,0.00
Polish_Lesser_Poland,31.00,43.23,11.15,5.26,5.63,0.55,0.47,0.06,0.80,0.85,0.57,0.29,0.16
Polish_Mazovia,28.33,46.20,10.70,5.60,5.04,0.54,1.20,0.15,0.69,0.66,0.50,0.18,0.20
Polish_North_Wielkopolska,31.98,43.23,10.06,5.79,5.57,0.87,0.73,0.17,0.19,1.00,0.03,0.35,0.03
Polish_Podlaskie,29.87,46.68,7.30,4.42,6.83,1.65,1.33,0.00,1.06,0.35,0.52,0.00,0.00
Polish_Silesia,29.25,43.03,12.16,6.16,5.57,0.39,1.25,0.29,0.64,0.70,0.42,0.16,0.00
Polish_Southeast,28.71,42.67,11.10,6.04,7.21,1.18,0.44,0.11,1.70,0.23,0.12,0.35,0.13
Polish_Staropolska,29.08,46.18,10.22,4.40,6.59,0.77,0.73,0.00,0.45,0.75,0.37,0.46,0.00
Polish_WarmiaMasuria,32.51,44.26,10.88,4.19,3.27,0.95,1.21,0.16,1.06,0.51,0.33,0.29,0.39
ohh geographic pattern isn't clear yet, still need more kits. And some samples look "too northern" for their location (upper Austrian plotting with Rhinelanders for eg. being totally native there)Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
than you have Noricum sis in law from lower Austria that's supposed to be more Slavic than upper Austrians and she has Swiss/Tyrol/south shifted Bavarian shift while one Upper Austrian has heavy Slav shift!
a mess.
What is the origin of Davidski's Austrian average? And how many samples were used back then?
No idea, probably people from Vienna with various backgrounds. It doesn't look very accurate based on results we have so far, too much eastern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Also working to replace Slovenian and Czech academic averages (Slovenian current one is pretty fine though, Czech less so)
G25 has the problem that Northern Easter Germans do get loads of Swedish, which is due to a little Finnish or Finnish-like input in Swedes, that is confused with a Germanic-Slavic mixture. I have two G25 coords where that excessively happens. While this confusion does not at all happen in K36.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
could you share those coordinates? Swedes probably have both Finnish and Baltic influence, north east Germans should have only Balto-SlavicQuote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
I think those interested in this subject will naturally be familiar with the proper German nomenclature. If anything, the English might be unfamiliar to them, since English speakers generally don't know much or talk much about Brunswick and Upper Saxony and Hither Pomerania.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Even if regions like Lower and Upper Austria have a vast diversity, you should still do an average based on the geographic/political division, I think. For example Alföld is super diverse, from the northern areas being more similar to North Hungarian results while southern parts are kinda Slovenian-like, even more southern, but I still decided to have them all under this geographic term. Many outliers are natural to be in any region.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Since you respect Dodecad K12b, you could make a few generalized German averages. We already have three (Bavarian by Piotr, some Eastern-ish academic dataset and Creoda's Northwestern). I guess an improvement would be good, especially if you really have a lot of data.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
I have done a clean-up to the previous Vahaduo sheet and renamed a few things. Southeast became Subcarpathia, like the name of the voivodeship, I moved Lemko under their own category since they are a separate ethnic group from Poles, I deleted Kielce since it is part of Lesser Poland and very similar to them, and also deleted North Wielkopolska since it is part of Greater Poland and very similar to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Yes we will, I promise! For K12b we will make broader regional averages (NW,SW,NE,SE) and German in general, just as you like it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Better Austrian reference(s) could be added too.
North Wielkopolska, Staropolska and Kielce are by Peterski, I didn't want to remove them since he's the Polish guy around here, but if he agrees with the deletion, than ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
Southeast is Subcarpathia+Lubelskie+Poles from Lviv, because of a small number of samples.
Awesome! Looking forward to that. Austrian is absent, except for Tyrol (submitted by Brazorf).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
It could be that both Swedes and northeastern Germans have some Baltic or Balto-Slavic input. Shouldn't there have been some recent Swedish influences in those parts of Germany? I speak as an ignoramus, as I am not familiar with the history of the region.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
:shocked:Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Er ist ein großartiges Beispiel gelungener Integration. Man kann ihn sogar zu einer Pegida-Demo einladen weil er kein Musel ist :DQuote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Sweden ruled Swedish Pomerania from 1630 to 1815:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedis...rania_1812.png
I don't know how much population movement there was or how much genetic influence that might have had.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Most affected is my wife, whose deep ancestry is rural and from Western Mecklenburg only:
rothaer_wife2_scaled,0.133173,0.128972,0.070899,0. 059432,0.041238,0.02259,0.004465,0.012692,0.001432 ,-0.010752,-0.009743,0.001649,-0.005798,0.001239,0.011536,0.004243,0.00013,0.0050 68,0.008673,0.013757,0.007986,0.005441,0.006902,0. 009519,-0.001796
Check her distance against modern individuals (with all that single individuals).
Precautionary: She is not just not from Sweden, but also her genetic is not closest to that. Here's her K36 correlation map, which imo perfectly shows her genetic similarities. She has about 25% proto Slavic.
https://i.imgur.com/UsIdOeG.jpg
I'm less affected after I have abt. 40% proto Slavic, but the more absurd it gets that I at all have a number of Swedes among my lowest distances at G25. My K36 correlation map is also much in line with my ancestry that is somewhat regionally distributed, but well known. There is no notable genetic proximity shown to Sweden.
https://i.imgur.com/F6mQ08b.jpg
My G25 coords:
rothaer_scaled,0.132035,0.133034,0.070144,0.051357 ,0.038161,0.019801,0.00846,0.013846,0.005931,-0.008383,-0.001137,-0.002698,0.003271,0.000413,0.005429,0.005038,0.000 782,-0.004814,0.005656,0.002876,0.006863,-0.001978,0.002342,0.001687,0.002275
There is no notable recent Swedish input due to history. This is all in church record times, so it is well assessable. The administrational language as well as the court and the responsible high court language was German while the Swedish rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf
But many German families came to Sweden while this period of Swedish rule in Pomerania.
Swedes may have some lower level Balto-Slavic input, but not comparable to that of Northern Germans in the Baltic Sea area. But they do have some Finnish and Sami and alike input, both from somewhat recent times from 16th century on as well as from so called South Sami that may have mingled somewhat into the Swea tribe in Central Sweden. Tellingly I often get Sweden_Sami as close pops in Eurogenes calculators with less components.
See also my answer to vbnetkhio on this topic and feel free to try the G25 coords posted there.
I almost never check distances in G25, I use it exclusively for modelling, and compare 2 samples or populations by comparing their results in a model.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Distances can be misleading, your closeness to Swedes could be a coincidence, or there could be minor drifts which differentiate from them, but this cannot be seen in the distances.
here's a quick model to show how G25 can clearly tell you apart from the Swedes:
<table><tbody><tr style="height:9.257014652192442em"><td data-columnid="0" class="multiheader"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this, false)">Target</span></div></td><td data-columnid="1" class="multiheader" colspan="2"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this)">Distance</span></div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multisources"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this)">Irish</span></div></td><td data-columnid="3" class="multisources"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this)">Latvian</span></div></td><td data-columnid="4" class="multisources"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this)">Saami</span></div></td><td data-columnid="5" class="multisources"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this)">Ukrainian_Zhytomyr</span></div></td></tr><tr data-rowid="0"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">rothaer_scaled</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.01765433</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 2.555349422075315em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(207.29, 60.42%, 57.769999999999996%)">50.6</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.16, 26.68%, 36.08%)">2.4</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.825, 25.35%, 35.225%)">0.5</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(208.725, 57.550000000000004%, 55.925%)">46.5</td></tr><tr data-rowid="1"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">German</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.01992125</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 3.1249878415681733em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(199.24, 76.52%, 68.12%)">73.6</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:#444455">0.0</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:#444455">0.0</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(215.76, 43.480000000000004%, 46.88%)">26.4</td></tr><tr data-rowid="2"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">German_East</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.01709299</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 2.4142942324796866em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(207.675, 59.65%, 57.275%)">49.5</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:#444455">0.0</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:#444455">0.0</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(207.325, 60.35%, 57.725%)">50.5</td></tr><tr data-rowid="3"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">Swedish</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.00956413</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 0.5224198341846418em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(198.855, 77.28999999999999%, 68.61500000000001%)">74.7</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(217.37, 40.26%, 44.81%)">21.8</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.23, 26.54%, 35.99%)">2.2</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.545, 25.91%, 35.585%)">1.3</td></tr><tr data-rowid="4"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">Polish</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.00748512</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 0em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(219.89, 35.22%, 41.57%)">14.6</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(223.53, 27.94%, 36.89%)">4.2</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:#444455">0.0</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(196.57999999999998, 81.84%, 71.53999999999999%)">81.2</td></tr><tr data-rowid="5"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">Polish_Kashubian</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.02658709</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 4.8em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(215.76, 43.480000000000004%, 46.88%)">26.4</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(209.25, 56.5%, 55.25%)">45.0</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.615, 25.77%, 35.495%)">1.1</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(215.375, 44.25%, 47.375%)">27.5</td></tr><tr><td onclick="sortByRow(this, true)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">Average</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.01638415</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 2.236174802912998em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" data-average="0.48233333333333334" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(208.11833333333334, 58.763333333333335%, 56.705%)">48.2</td><td data-columnid="3" data-average="0.12233333333333334" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(220.71833333333333, 33.56333333333333%, 40.505%)">12.2</td><td data-columnid="4" data-average="0.006333333333333333" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.77833333333334, 25.44333333333333%, 35.285%)">0.6</td><td data-columnid="5" data-average="0.389" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(211.385, 52.230000000000004%, 52.504999999999995%)">38.9</td></tr></tbody></table>
BTW your wife's results aren't working
A copy error. I just corrected it, sorry!Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf
Nice PCA, was it made using Eurogenes K13?
Also modelling is just about a mathematical fit by using the 25 coords. If there can not be seen a notable difference in a direct comparison showing distances, the modelling may be wrong too, of course. There are notable genetic differences, displayed in K36 as you see in that earlier posted map of my wife. And here are her distances:Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
https://i.imgur.com/3ufSPio.jpg
Watch all these Swedish samples. This is almost complete nonsense.
The deficiency of all Eurogenes calculators up to G25 inclusive to in the mentioned aspect correctly distinguish does not eliminate the possibility to get correct models. You "just" get incorrect additional possibilities. (One should have made a "G26" with an additional component resembling "Fennoscandian" in K36 and the problem would be solved. I understand that this can not be done without an incredible effort.)
Das dürfte zwanglos erklären, warum ich gegen eine Integration :picard2: bin und auch stets war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
in her modelling, Baltic is prefered to Slavic (that's probably the reason for her similarity to the Swedes), however Saami is much lower that the Swedish average, and within a normal level for the South Baltic coast.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Target: rothaer_wife2_scaled
Distance: 2.0710% / 0.02070996
66.6 Irish
27.2 Latvian
5.6 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.6 Saami
Maybe the problem here is the lack of modern samples in G25 compared to LM genetics.
The Swedes in G25 could be unrepresentative, and there are probably no Northeast Germans among the German samples.