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Originally Posted by
Bender1999
Oh yes i meant that the terms Oghuz and Oghur have the same meaning, didn’t it means something like tribe? To be honest until today i mostly dealt with other Turkic groups and now have no time for reading new stuff about Turkics. I just have fragmented knowledge about them and i even don’t know whether those informations are true or not. According to your information they weren’t really different about our imagination of early Turk(ic)s, imo the Onoghur sample whichi wrongly posted as Khazar is genetically the same like Göktürks just more European shifted.
Btw i once read a theory about Oghuz origins about Khazars, but i am very careful about those kind of informations. Genetically they seem to be more Euro shifted like you said than Oghuz groups.
He probably confused Oğuric people with Fin-Ugor people which is possible to happen :o :picard2:
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The stem uq-, oq- "kin, tribe" is from a Proto-Turkic *uk. The Old Turkic word has often been connected with oq "arrow";[1] Pohl (2002) in explanation of this connection adduces the Chinese T'ang-shu chronicle, which reports "the khan divided his realm into ten tribes. To the leader of each tribe, he sent an arrow. The name [of these ten leaders] was 'the ten she ', but they were also called 'the ten arrows'." [2][3] An oguz (ogur) was in origin a military division of a Nomadic empire, which acquired tribal or ethnic connotations, by processes of ethnogenesis.[3]
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The Oghuz, Oguz or Ghuzz Turks (Old Turkic: ������, romanized: Oγuz, Middle Turkic: ٱغُز, romanized: Oγuz, Ottoman Turkish: اوغوز, romanized: Oġuz) were a western Turkic people that spoke the Oghuz branch of the Turkic language family.[1] In the 8th century, they formed a tribal confederation conventionally named the Oghuz Yabgu State in central Asia. The name Oghuz is a Common Turkic word for "tribe".
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Linguistically, the Oghuz belong to the Common Turkic speaking group, characterized by sound correspondences such as Common Turkic /-š/ versus Oghuric /-l/ and Common Turkic /-z/ versus Oghuric /-r/.Within the Common Turkic group, the Oghuz languages share these innovations: loss of Proto-Turkic gutturals in suffix anlaut, loss of /ɣ/ except after /a/, /g/ becoming either /j/ or lost, voicing of /t/ to /d/ and of /k/ to /g/, and */ğ/ becomes /j/.[10]
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The name Onoğur is most often derived as On-Oğur "ten Oğurs (tribes)".[2] Modern scholars consider Turkic terms for tribe oğuz and oğur to be derived from Turkic *og/uq, meaning "kinship or being akin to".[3] The terms initially were not the same, as oq/ogsiz meant "arrow",[4] while oğul meant "offspring, child, son", oğuš/uğuš was "tribe, clan", and the verb oğša-/oqša meant "to be like, resemble".[3] The ethnonym Hungarian is derived from Onogurs (> (H)ungars).[5]
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The Oghur languages are also known as "-r Turkic" because the final consonant in certain words is r, not z as in Common Turkic.[8] Chuvash: вăкăр - Turkish: öküz - Tatar: үгез - English: ox. Hence the name Oghur corresponds Oghuz in Common Turkic.[3] Other correspondences are Com. š : Oghur l (tâš : tâl, 'stone'); s > š; *č > ś; k/q > ğ; y > j, ś; d, δ > δ > z (10th cent.) > r (13th cent.)"; ğd > z > r (14th cent.); a > ı (after 9th cent.).[9][10]
Distinguished specialist in the history of Central Asia the late Denis Sinor believed that the differences noted above suggest that the Oghur-speaking tribes could not have originated in territories inhabited by speakers of Mongolic languages, given that Mongolian dialects feature the -z suffix.[11] Equally eminent historian Professor Golden, however, has noted that there are many loanwords in Mongolic from Oghur, such as Mong. ikere, Oghur. *ikir, Hung. iker, Comm. ikiz (twins).[3] and holds the contradictory view that the Oghur inhabited the borderlands of Mongolia prior to the 5th century.[12]
The Oghur tribes are often connected with the Hungarians whose exoethnonym is usually derived from Onogurs (> (H)ungars).[13] The Hungarians are of mixed Ugrian / Turkic heritage, with strong Oghur-Bulgar and Khazar influences.[14][15] Hungarian has many borrowings from Turkic and Oghur languages:[16] Hung. tenger, Oghur. *tengir, Comm. tengiz (sea),[3] Hung. gyűrű, Oghur. jürük, Comm. yüzük (ring),[17] and terms of equestrian culture ló (horse), nyereg (saddle), fék (bridle), ostor (whip).[18] A number of Hungarian loanwords were borrowed before the 9th century, shown by sz- (< Oğ. ś-) rather than Comm. gy- (< Oğ. ǰ-): example Hung. szél, Oghur. *śäl, Chuv. śil, Comm. yel (wind), Hung. szűcs (tailor), Hung. szőlő (grapes).[17]
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The name Kutrigur, also recorded as Kwrtrgr, Κουτρίγουροι, Κουτούργουροι, Κοτρίγουροι, Κοτρίγοροι, Κουτρίγοροι, Κοτράγηροι, Κουτράγουροι, Κοτριαγήροι,[2] has been suggested as a metathecized form of Turkic *Toqur-Oğur, with *quturoğur meaning "nine Oğur (tribes)".[3] David Marshall Lang derived it from Turkic kötrügür (conspicuous, eminent, renowned).[4]
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The name Ut(r)igur, recorded as Οὺτ(τ)ρίγουροι, Οὺτούργουροι and Οὺτρίγου, is generally considered as a metathecized form suggested by Gyula Németh of Turkic *Otur-Oğur, thus the *Uturğur mean "Thirty Oğurs (tribes)".[1] Lajos Ligeti proposed utur- (to resist),[2] while Louis Bazin uturkar (the victors-conquerors), Quturgur and qudurmaq (the enrages).[3]
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The Onogurs were one of the first Oghuric Turkic tribes that entered the Ponto-Caspian steppes as the result of migrations set off in Inner Asia.[6] The 10th century Movses Kaghankatvatsi recorded, considered late 4th century, certain Honagur, "a Hun from the Honk" who raided Persia, which were related to the Onoghurs, and located near Transcaucasia and the Sassanian Empire.[9] Scholars also relate the Hyōn to this account.[9]
According to Priscus, in 463 the representatives of Ernak's Saraghurs (Oghur. sara, "White Oghurs"), Oghurs and Onoghurs came to the Emperor in Constantinople,[10] and explained they had been driven out of their homeland by the Sabirs, who had been attacked by the Avars in Inner Asia.[11][12] This tangle of events indicates that the Oghuric tribes are related to the Ting-ling and Tiele people.[13][14] It is considered they belonged to the westernmost Tiele tribes, which also included the Uyghurs-Toquz Oghuz and the Oghuz Turks, and were initially located in Western Siberia and Kazakhstan.[15] Leo I the Thracian granted Ernak the lands of the treacherous Karadach's Akatziroi roughly corresponding to 20th century Ukraine. Later kings of the Onogur Huns included Grod, Mugel and Sandilch whose Utigurs were engaged in a civil war against the Kutrigurs of Khinialon.
The origin of the Kutrigurs and Utigurs, who lived in the vicinity of the Onoghurs and Bulgars, and their mutual relationship is considered obscure.[16][17] Scholars consider unclear how the union between Onoghurs and Bulgars formed, viewing it as a long process in which a number of different groups merged.[18][19] During that time, the Bulgars may have represented a large confederation of which the Onoghurs formed one of the core tribes,[19] together with the remnants of the Utigurs and Kutrigurs, among others.[20]
Jordanes in Getica (551) mentioned that the Hunuguri (believed to be the Onoghurs) were notable for the marten skin trade.[21][22][23] In the Middle Ages, marten skin was used as a substitute for minted money.[24][9] This also indicates they lived near forests and were in contact with Finno-Ugrian peoples.[9][25]
The Syriac translation of the Pseudo–Zacharias Rhetor's Ecclesiastical History (c. 555) in Western Eurasia records the Avnagur (Aunagur; considered Onoghurs), wngwr (Onoğur), wgr (Oghur), described in typical phrases reserved for nomads in the ethnographic literature of the period, as people who "live in tents, earn their living on the meat of livestock and fish, of wild animals and by their weapons (plunder)".[21][26]
The Onoghurs (Oghurs), in the 6th and 7th century sources, were mentioned mostly in connection with the Avar and Göktürk conquest of Western Eurasia.[27] According to the 6th century Menander Protector, the "leader of the Οὐγούρων" had the authority of the Turk Yabgu Khagan in the region of Kuban River to the lower Don.[28]
In early 7th century Theophylaktos Simokattes recorded that certain Onoghur city Βακάθ was destroyed by an earthquake before his lifetime.[9] The Sogdian name indicates it was situated in the vicinity of Iranian Central Asia.[9]
Simokattes in the Letter of the Turk Qaγan (Tamgan) to the Emperor Maurikios recorded a complex notice:
"...the Qaghan set off on another undertaking and subjugated all the Ὀγώρ. This people is (one) of the most powerful because of their numbers and their training for war in full battle-gear. They have made their abodes towards the East, whence flows the river Τίλ, which the Turks have the custom of calling the "Black". The oldest chieftains of this people are called Οὐάρ and Χουννί."[28]
According to the Qaghan, part of those Ouar (Uar) and Khounni (Huns) who arrived to Eastern Europe were mistook by the Onoghurs, Barsils, Sabirs and other tribes for the original Avars, and as such the Uar and Huns took advantage of the situation and began call themselves Avars.[29] Simokattes also recounts "when the Ogor, then, were brought completely to heel, the Qaγan gave over the chief of the Κὸλχ (Kolx[28]) to the bite of the sword", shows Oghurs resistance toward Turkic authority.[28] Scholars consider if the Til is Qara Itil (Black Itil) i.e. Volga (Atil/Itil), then the mentioned Ὀγώρ would be the Oghurs, while if it is in Inner Asia, then it could be the Uyghurs.[28]
You can see names like Karadach or Ernak they are pretty much Turkic Karadach means Karadağ which is Kara "black" dağ "mountain" Ernak/Irnek is the archaic way to say Parmak in Turkic which means "Thumb"
