Who, genetically, are the least Slavic of the Slavs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf

I think the Slavic ancestry of Balkanians is Polish-like.

Code:

Distance to: AV1_Hungary_Avar_1361_ybp 2.51037846 Ukrainian_Galicia 3.35052235 South_Polish 3.92331492 Polish_Silesia 4.01662794 Polish_Southeast 4.34316705 Moldova_Ukrainian Distance to: AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_ 1.75171345 Polish_Kuyavia 2.86347691 Polish 3.05216317 Polish_Kujawy 3.74654508 Polish_Mazovia 3.98610085 Polish_Mazovia

Global25

Code:

Target: Croatian Distance: 0.0049% / 0.00492042 | R2P 70.4 Polish 29.6 Italian_Umbria Target: Serbian Distance: 0.0132% / 0.01321084 | R2P 68.5 Ukrainian_Lviv 31.5 Greek_Kos Target: Serbian Distance: 0.0080% / 0.00799395 | R3P 42.5 Lithuanian_RA 32.6 Italian_Lombardy 24.9 Greek_Kos

Eurogenes K13

Code:

Target: Croat Distance: 0.4453% / 0.44529358 | R3P 40.2 Polish_Mazovia 33.5 Italian_Marche 26.3 Polish_Lesser_Poland Target: Croat_East Distance: 0.8081% / 0.80807037 | R3P 41.8 Polish_Lesser_Poland 32.1 Polish_Southeast 26.1 Greek_Cyclades Target: Croat_North Distance: 0.3585% / 0.35851164 | R3P 60.9 Polish_Mazovia 20.5 Italian_Marche 18.6 French_Alsace Target: Croat_South Distance: 0.5159% / 0.51585104 | R3P 56.8 Polish_Mazovia 24.0 Italian_Veneto 19.2 Greek_Crete Target: Croat_West Distance: 0.5427% / 0.54269622 | R3P 53.8 Polish_Staropolska 37.3 Italian_Trentino 8.9 Greek_Trabzon Target: Serb Distance: 0.7919% / 0.79194004 | R3P 62.5 South_Polish 29.3 Greek_Crete 8.2 Italian_Sardinia Target: Serb_Bosnia Distance: 0.9707% / 0.97069809 | R3P 66.4 Polish_Silesia 27.7 Greek_Crete 5.9 Italian_Sardinia Target: Serb_Croatia Distance: 0.7934% / 0.79338749 | R3P 50.5 Belarusian_Minsk 32.6 Italian_Lombardy 16.9 Greek_Cappadocian Target: Serb_Herzegovina Distance: 0.6890% / 0.68900115 | R3P 57.2 Polish_Lesser_Poland 34.5 Greek_Crete 8.3 Italian_Sardinia Target: Serb_Serbia_Central Distance: 0.8899% / 0.88993271 | R3P 43.5 Belarusian_Minsk 28.8 Greek_Crete 27.7 Italian_Trentino Target: Serb_Serbia_South Distance: 0.6107% / 0.61066313 | R3P 47.3 Belarusian_Minsk 31.3 Greek_Chios 21.4 Italian_Lombardy Target: Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina Distance: 0.8595% / 0.85949676 | R3P 60.7 South_Polish 30.6 Greek_Crete 8.7 Italian_Sardinia Target: Serb_Serbia_West Distance: 0.8380% / 0.83800140 | R3P 65.3 South_Polish 24.4 Greek_Chios 10.3 Italian_Sardinia Target: Serb_Southern_Montenegro Distance: 0.8541% / 0.85412427 | R3P 49.3 Polish_Silesia 46.2 Italian_Apulia 4.5 Italian_Sardinia

It is likely Slavs who invaded Balkans were already mixed and not pure proto-Slavs, that would even be expected perhaps. But still I think most interesting to find out their proto-Slavic percentage.
AV1 is child of AV2 and seem to be half Panonnian of some sort, kinda mixed with Celto-Germanic and Roman, sth along these lines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

My results when using above mentioned ancient Slavs and Illyrians from Croatia and Hungary (I remove Thracian from source who would artificaly increase my Slavic because I have zero Thracian)

Target: Stearsolina_scaled
Distance: 2.2310% / 0.02230987

60.2 (Balto-)Slavic
39.8 Balkan

just for fun. mine using your samples plus

Quote:

Thraco-Dacian,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Thraco-Dacian,0.1189452,0.1210172,0.0215587,-0.0114665,0.0141048,-0.003951,0.0019977,-0.0041152,-0.0018065,0.021018,0.0008122,0.0028475,-0.0096877,-0.0022708,-0.0063108,0.0022098,0.00452,0.0035473,0.0094065,-0.0026263,-0.008298,0.0063063,-0.0011503,0.002149,0.0005985
Dalmatian,0.119514,0.148267,0.015839,-0.01615,0.032621,-0.010877,-0.00329,-0.001385,0.006954,0.014943,0.004547,0.011989,-0.023042,-0.009909,-0.002307,-0.008751,0.001434,-0.003547,0.006536,0.003252,0.000499,-0.001855,0.003204,-0.001566,-0.017364
Dalmatian,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
Dalmatian,0.124636,0.149283,0.031301,-0.0098515,0.0386225,-0.0023705,-0.00564,-0.002423,0.006647,0.030069,8.15e-05,0.0106405,-0.0150145,-0.009152,-0.006786,0.0086185,0.014277,-0.0020905,0.0034565,-0.011318,-0.0035565,0.0037715,-0.00228,0.002952,-0.001796

Target: Oszkar
Distance: 2.6435% / 0.02643497
39.4 Dalmatian
30.8 (Balto-)Slavic
23.4 (Balto-)SlavicEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011
6.4 Thraco-Dacian

Probably Torbeši https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Muslims

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Maybe but these other all get Lithuanians and Belarusians in modern Oracles first, Sunhgir gets Ukrainians and south Russians iirc (did not check)
And on K13 Sunghir visibly more southern than them plus some Siberian too.

Yes, a single PCA does not show all aspects, so there can always be some notable deviations "hidden". For me personally the removal of Sunghir6 doesn't change the Slavic Proportion of 40.0% in this calculator. But Macedonians f. i. get 46.4% with and 46.0% without Sunghir6 among the references. So their "Slavic" obviously had some (small) advantage of the particular character of that Sunghir6 sample.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rothaer

Yes, a single PCA does not show all aspects, so there can always be some notable deviations "hidden". For me personally the removal of Sunghir6 doesn't change the Slavic Proportion of 40.0% in this calculator. But Macedonians f. i. get 46.4% with and 46.0% without Sunghir6 among the references. So their "Slavic" obviously had some (small) advantage of the particular character of that Sunghir6 sample.

Yes, east/south Balkan better modeled with Sunghir, but that doesn't make Sunghir pure early Slav. Probably they are better modeled with him because he shifts southeastern from other early Slavs I posted.
Better fits can be very misleading.

This is my opinion at least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varda

Probably Torbeši https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Muslims

Could well be. If anyone would know a Torbes or Pomak G25 samlple that would be very interesting for comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Yes, east/south Balkan better modeled with Sunghir, but that doesn't make Sunghir pure early Slav. Probably they are better modeled with him because he shifts southeastern from other early Slavs I posted.
Better fits can be very misleading.

This is my opinion at least.

If Sunghir6 does not fit to the other early Slavs because of some additional traits, it should be removed from the references. And yes, just because the calculator choses what has the best fit, it mustn't be correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rothaer

If Sunghir6 does not fit to the other early Slavs because of some additional traits, it should be removed from the references. And yes, just because the calculator choses what has the best fit, it mustn't be correct.

I am not sure, just expressing my opinion. Would be interested to hear other's opinions too. Perhaps Slavs had diversity too.
But for me it's indicative how Slavs who lived deep into Germany centuries after medieval migrations still managed be so Baltic like, and there were no Baltic migrations into Germany.

Plus Avar2 from Pannonia was also like that and these Moravian Pohansko samples too.

To me this indicates early Slavs were highly homogenous and very much northeastern.

And I think Ukrainians and south Russians have something more southern than that (obviously they don't plot between Belarus and Litwa), maybe of Iranic-Caucasus sort (not sure).
Yes wild fields were re-settled from north and west but still, from what I saw, previous occupants are never truly erased from DNA, some people always remain and intermix.

Scyths and Sarmats were huge tribes in Ukraine area, I simply don't buy expanding Slavs absorbed none of such admixture but just steppe Turks did.
So now I am not talking about Russo-Turkish wars but centuries before that.

Iranic nomads were large mass of people who couldn't vanish just like that!
And I think that sort of light substratum may explain why Ukrainians and southern Russians don't plot like early Slavic samples from Germany, Moravia and Hungary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

It is likely Slavs who invaded Balkans were already mixed and not pure proto-Slavs, that would even be expected perhaps. But still I think most interesting to find out their proto-Slavic percentage.
AV1 is child of AV2 and seem to be half Panonnian of some sort, kinda mixed with Celto-Germanic and Roman, sth along these lines.

Mixed with what? This is getting ridiculous IMO 'cause now Latvians are supposed to be more "Slavic" than the actual Slavs.
I personally prefer to say we're just (North)eastern Europeans. Steppe-rich, Northern-blooded is what matters more to me (and what pisses others off, apparently) than some linguistic labels. :cool: