White Serb/Sorb gedmatch result!

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

He actually is, and he picked up this information from Bosnian Croat forums where they are debunking most common Serbian myths.

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How can they debunk myths, let alone facts, when they can't even read ancient historic Serb documents?

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Originally Posted by Voight

How can they debunk myths, let alone facts, when they can't even read ancient historic Serb documents?

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Which documents?

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Re-posting Mingle post from another thread:


The Serb vs. Vlach distinction is not originally from Bosnia, but rather from Serbia. The first instance of these names being used is in the document of the Grand Principality of Serbia (known as "Rascia" back then by Westerners) from Stefan to Dubrovnik around he year 1215. So basically the distinction between "Srblin" and "Vlah" came to Bosnia from Serbia under the complicity of the Dubrovnik public office. The document can be recognized to have been written by Paskal. He had written two of Matej Ninoslav's documents in 1240 and 1249. Matej Ninoslav's first document was written before 1235 by notary Desoje. Also, a document sent by Ban Kulin in 1189 (which is older than Ninoslav's document) doesn't recognize the name "Srblin" or even "Vlah". The reason for why the Dubrovnik notaries identified Bosnia with Serbs may have been Serbia's leading position in the Slavic continental hinterland. This was around the time that Serbia had conquered Hum, Travunja, and Duklja while Bosnia was a small state.

According to M. Kuljbakin, "the ortography of Miroslav's Gospel differs significantly from Serbian Church monuments, such as Vukan's Gospel (Vukanovo evandelje), and approaches those old Croatian Cyrillic charters of Ban Kulin, Matej Ninoslav, and others.


During the time that the papal decrees were written where Bosnia was referenced as part of Serbia, Bosnia was in fact an independent entity and not part of Serbia. These were written during the reigns of Ban Kulin and Ban Matej Ninoslav. The reason for this confusion is likely because of not only the Dubrovnik public office using the "Srbin" and "Vlah" distinction, but also because of Bosnia's previous position where it was adjacent to Serbia and influenced by Serbia before it eventually started its own kingdom. Since Serbia was a powerful state in that area and Bosnia was still developing as one, Bosnia being mentioned as a Serbian state is indicative of Serbia's influence in that region. It should be noted once again that besides these three documents made in Dubrovnik, the inhabitants of Bosnia are never implied to be Serbs.


He only did that so he could claim continuity with the Nemanjić Dynasty. Even though he actually did have partial Serb ancestry (through his Serbian grandmother Jelisaveta), he only emphasized on it so he could claim heir to the throne, not because he saw himself as a Serb.

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Are you aware that Matej Ninoslav's charter is charter to the Duvrovčani and refers on their free trade in Bosnia? There is nothing to do with Raška.

There is no any medieval document of Bosnian rulers and noblemans written on chakavian (Croatian), all are on shtokavian (Serbian), sorry!

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Originally Posted by Leto

Well, nothing against him but even I as a Slav have far less interest in Serbian and Croatian history (including genetic history by the way) than him, a Pakistani living in America.

I just learned to discuss those Balkan GEDmatch results and all the results because they are so often posted here and even cause of good amount of controversy. But that's fine, they are still somehow related to us, Eastern Slavs and Eastern Europeans in general.

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I am honored by his interest.

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

He actually is, and he picked up this information from Bosnian Croat forums where they are debunking most common Serbian myths.

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The part about Ninoslav and some other bits were from there, but most of it was from different sources on Google Books.

Early Christianity in Bosnia

Christianity in Bosnia first arrived via the Romans. Once Roman rule ended and Christianity more or less dissipated, a second wave of Christianity arrived in Bosnia via the Croats of Dalmatia. Bosnia's church architecture, liturgical language, script, and church jurisdiction are evidence of Christianity coming from the Croats.

The Bosnian diocese was under jurisdiction together with regions part of modern day Croatia. The Bosnian diocese was first under the domain of the Metropolitan of Split, then of Bar (1089), then of Split again (1137), and then a few decades later under the archdiocese of Dubrovnik (before 1185).

Besides the Bosnian diocese, eight other church districts existed in Medieval Bosnia. Northwestern Bosnia (west of the Vrbas River) was under the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of Zagreb. The Diocese of Knin and Krbava and the Archdiocese of Split had jurisdiction over parts of southwestern Bosnia. The Diocese of Duvno, Makarska, Ston, and Trebinje controlled the central and southern parts of the country.

Bosnians wrote in the Glagolitic script similar to Catholic Croatia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hval%27s_Codex

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvoje%27s_Missal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humac_tablet

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihano...lomak_Apostola

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C5%...lomak_apostola

The remnants of the diocesan priests were known as glagoljaši who got their name from their usage of the Glagolitic script and Old Slavonic (as a liturgical language) in Bosnia. Once the Franciscans came to Bosnia, the glagoljaši continued to serve the faithful. Since the glagoljaši were less educated than the Franciscans, they served as their assistants.

The Franciscans were given permission by Mehmet II to stay among other Catholics in Bosnia, but Catholics in Bosnia generally weren't treated well (compared to the Orthodox and especially Muslim populations) since the Ottoman Empire was more often at war with Catholic states such as the Habsburgs. Persecutions of them lead to some conversions to Islam with others emigrating. One major exodus of Catholics from Bosnia to northern Croatia took place during the Habsburg-Ottoman Wars from 1683-1699.

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Originally Posted by Leto

Well, nothing against him but even I as a Slav have far less interest in Serbian and Croatian history (including genetic history by the way) than him, a Pakistani living in America.

I just learned to discuss those Balkan GEDmatch results and all the rest because they are so often posted here and even cause of good amount of controversy. But that's fine, they are still somehow related to us, Eastern Slavs and Eastern Europeans in general.

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He's a great and valuable poster (and probably the closest thing to objectivity we'll get regarding any of these Balkan topics) and his interests stretches far beyond the Balkans. It's just that a lot of the topics here are about the Balkans.

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Originally Posted by Mingle

The part about Ninoslav and some other bits were from there, but most of it was from different sources on Google Books.

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Great work, and thank you for referencing sources you took information from.

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Early Christianity in Bosnia

Christianity in Bosnia first arrived via the Romans. Once Roman rule ended and Christianity more or less dissipated, a second wave of Christianity arrived in Bosnia via the Croats of Dalmatia. Bosnia's church architecture, liturgical language, script, and church jurisdiction are evidence of Christianity coming from the Croats.

The Bosnian diocese was under jurisdiction together with regions part of modern day Croatia. The Bosnian diocese was first under the domain of the Metropolitan of Split, then of Bar (1089), then of Split again (1137), and then a few decades later under the archdiocese of Dubrovnik (before 1185).

Besides the Bosnian diocese, eight other church districts existed in Medieval Bosnia. Northwestern Bosnia (west of the Vrbas River) was under the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of Zagreb. The Diocese of Knin and Krbava and the Archdiocese of Split had jurisdiction over parts of southwestern Bosnia. The Diocese of Duvno, Makarska, Ston, and Trebinje controlled the central and southern parts of the country.

Bosnians wrote in the Glagolitic script similar to Catholic Croatia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hval%27s_Codex

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvoje%27s_Missal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humac_tablet

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihano...lomak_Apostola

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C5%...lomak_apostola

The remnants of the diocesan priests were known as glagoljaši who got their name from their usage of the Glagolitic script and Old Slavonic (as a liturgical language) in Bosnia. Once the Franciscans came to Bosnia, the glagoljaši continued to serve the faithful. Since the glagoljaši were less educated than the Franciscans, they served as their assistants.

The Franciscans were given permission by Mehmet II to stay among other Catholics in Bosnia, but Catholics in Bosnia generally weren't treated well (compared to the Orthodox and especially Muslim populations) since the Ottoman Empire was more often at war with Catholic states such as the Habsburgs. Persecutions of them lead to some conversions to Islam with others emigrating. One major exodus of Catholics from Bosnia to northern Croatia took place during the Habsburg-Ottoman Wars from 1683-1699.

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Catholicism arrived in Bosnia in 13th century with Francicsans. First Catholics were Saxon miners, later some natives (in central Bosnia) adopted Catholicism.
Read "Razvoj duhovnog života u Bosni pod uticajem turske vladavine" of Ivo Andrić who was Bosnian Catholic.

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

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so basically, whenever Serbs or Serbia are mentioned, there is some crazy explanation why it doesn't mean Serb but Croat? :scratch:

seems to be a little too many of these mentions for them all to be "fake".

i've also read such explanations by Croatian historians on why "Serb" in "De Administrando Imperio" doesn't actually mean "Serb". :rolleyes: