Serbian autosomal DNA #2

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Originally Posted by Varda

Serb/Montenegrin tribe Bratonožići is Q1bL274>L275>F1213>M378>Y2016>L245>Y2209>FGC2020

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratonožići

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Q-L275 is usually associated with Middle-East rather than Central Asia and found densely among Middle-Easterner groups, specifically Jews. On the other hand, Q-L713, Q-YP4004, Q-L330 which are also found among Serbs might show a pre-Ottoman Turkic connection. Do you know of these?

https://i.ibb.co/tP9bzF1/Ads-z.png

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

I couldn't find much info on the forum or website. It's found in Macedonia and Southern Serbia as well. So this man is more likely to originate from there (since that's where Vojvodina Serbs come from), and not from a Serbianized Hungarian or Romanian.
Maybe it has something to do with Kumanovo? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumanovo#Etymology

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This is great information! So can we consider all these I posted above have origin from Southern Serbia or some degree of assimilation of Hungarians and Romanians did also take place? Or there were native Serbs of the region?

Also, there is not only Kumanovo but also some other Cuman/Kipchak/Pecheneg toponyms in the region so indeed it is likely to be related to it.

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

Maybe it has something to do with Kumanovo? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumanovo#Etymology

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There is village Kumane, in Banat in northern Serbia.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

Q-L275 is usually associated with Middle-East rather than Central Asia and found densely among Middle-Easterner groups, specifically Jews. On the other hand, Q-L713, Q-YP4004, Q-L330 which are also found among Serbs might show a pre-Ottoman Turkic connection. Do you know of these?

https://i.ibb.co/tP9bzF1/Ads-z.png






This is great information! So can we consider all these I posted above have origin from Southern Serbia or some degree of assimilation of Hungarians and Romanians did also take place? Or there were native Serbs of the region?

Also, there is not only Kumanovo but also some other Cuman/Kipchak/Pecheneg toponyms in the region so indeed it is likely to be related to it.

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Cumans, Hungarians, Germans, Spaniards/Catalans etc. were mercenaries in Serbia in the time of Nemanjić dynasty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...l_Serbian_army

I found in Serbian sources that Serbian king Milutin in his army had 2000 Turcopole mercenaries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Milutin

One Kosovo Serb carry I2-Z113 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z113/), he is most likely descendant of Catalan mercenary by direct paternal line.
Some Q among Serbs might be from Cuman mercenaries.

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Originally Posted by Dušan

There is village Kumane, in Banat in northern Serbia.

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Monastery Kumanica is also named by Cumans http://www.panacomp.net/kumanica-monastery/

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

Q-L275 is usually associated with Middle-East rather than Central Asia and found densely among Middle-Easterner groups, specifically Jews. On the other hand, Q-L713, Q-YP4004, Q-L330 which are also found among Serbs might show a pre-Ottoman Turkic connection. Do you know of these?

https://i.ibb.co/tP9bzF1/Ads-z.png

This is great information! So can we consider all these I posted above have origin from Southern Serbia or some degree of assimilation of Hungarians and Romanians did also take place? Or there were native Serbs of the region?

Also, there is not only Kumanovo but also some other Cuman/Kipchak/Pecheneg toponyms in the region so indeed it is likely to be related to it.

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Žambok is Hungarian, his roots are from Debrecen in Hungary, so he shouldn't have a close connection with the others. These k13 results I posted are of the Marković family. Djurovski and Šaranac are the Macedonian and South Serbian I mentioned. I assumed the last 3 are connected.

Hromček also isn't a Serb. He just said he's a catholic from Subotica, his family settled there around 1800, and the surname was originally Hromek. It's found among west Slavs and in Croatia.
Todor is only in the FTDNA Q project? He's more likely Todorov or Todorović, the "Todor" surname doesnt exist there.

Vojvodina Serbs mostly came from the wider South Serbian region between 1690 and 1740. There seems to have been a lot of identity switching between Serbs and Romanians in eastern Vojvodina, I found such people on gedmatch, so that's a real possibility. Other than that no. Serbs assimilating into Hungarians was much more likely.

I'm not talking about the recent times here. (after ww2), e.g. maybe this Hromček and Žambok consider themselves Serbs nowadays.

There were earlier waves of Serb setlement in Vojvodina, but i think they were all assimilated into Hungarians. I never heard of a Vojvodina Serb with roots there older than 1690. Maybe Varda will know more.

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

Žambok is Hungarian, his roots are from Debrecen in Hungary, so he shouldn't have a close connection with the others. These k13 results I posted are of the Marković family. Djurovski and Šaranac are the Macedonian and South Serbian I mentioned. I assumed the last 3 are connected.

Hromček also isn't a Serb. He just said he's a catholic from Subotica, his family settled there around 1800, and the surname was originally Hromek. It's found among west Slavs and in Croatia.
Todor is only in the FTDNA Q project? He's more likely Todorov or Todorović, the "Todor" surname doesnt exist there.

Vojvodina Serbs mostly came from the wider South Serbian region between 1690 and 1740. There seems to have been a lot of identity switching between Serbs and Romanians in eastern Vojvodina, I found such people on gedmatch, so that's a real possibility. Other than that no. Serbs assimilating into Hungarians was much more likely.

I'm not talking about the recent times here. (after ww2), e.g. maybe this Hromček and Žambok consider themselves Serbs nowadays.

There were earlier waves of Serb setlement in Vojvodina, but i think they were all assimilated into Hungarians. I never heard of a Vojvodina Serb with roots there older than 1690. Maybe Varda will know more.

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Wouldn't Šaranac be one of those who descend from the people settled after 1878 in Toplica? It's a surname from Herzegovina, definitely not native anywhere else:

https://www.poreklo.rs/2012/03/26/po...imena-saranac/

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

There were earlier waves of Serb setlement in Vojvodina, but i think they were all assimilated into Hungarians. I never heard of a Vojvodina Serb with roots there older than 1690. Maybe Varda will know more.

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Of course Vojvodina was settled by Serbs before 1690.
First large Serbian settlements in Srem and southern Banat were formed in 15th century, when Ottomans conquered Serbian despotate.

After Mohač battle in 1526, when Ottomans conquered almost entire Pannonian basin, there was dominant Serbian population all across Srem, Banat and Bačka, in todays Vojvodina.
The best evidence of majority Serbian presence in todays Vojvodina in 16th century was Banat uprising in 1594.


I dont know how much of todays native Vojvodina Serbs have roots from these earlier settlers, and how much from great migration in 1690.
The fact is that Serbs are in Vojvodina way before 1690.

..

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Originally Posted by Dušan

Of course Vojvodina was settled by Serbs before 1690.
First large Serbian settlements in Srem and southern Banat were formed in 15th century, when Ottomans conquered Serbian despotate.

After Mohač battle in 1526, when Ottomans conquered almost entire Pannonian basin, there was dominant Serbian population all across Srem, Banat and Bačka, in todays Vojvodina.
The best evidence of majority Serbian presence in todays Vojvodina in 16th century was Banat uprising in 1594.


I dont know how much of todays native Vojvodina Serbs have roots from these earlier settlers, and how much from great migration in 1690.
The fact is that Serbs are in Vojvodina way before 1690.

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Serbs in Vojvodina with roots there before 1690 are in minority, and most of that Serbs are present in Vojvodina since 16th century (Ottoman period).
Serbs from 15th century disappeared in Vojvodina. They migrated together with Hungarians towards the northwest in 1520s when Ottomans came, also some of them died of plagues and died of Ottoman invaders.
I heard around Sombor there is certain number of Serbian families for which exist evidences for presence there in 16th century.

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Originally Posted by Varda

Serbs in Vojvodina with roots there before 1690 are in minority, and they are present in Vojvodina since 16th century (Ottoman period).
Serbs from 15th century disappeared in Vojvodina. They migrated together with Hungarians towards the northwest in 1520s when Ottomans came, also some of them died of plagues and died of Ottoman invaders.
I heard around Sombor there is certain number of Serbian families for which exist evidences for presence there in 16th century.

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I think there are among native Vojvodina Serbs much more of these with roots in Vojvodina before 1690.

Why do I say that? Because after migrations of 1690, whole Banat and eastern part of Srem were still under Ottoman rule.
These areas were not settled in great migrations in 1690.

Austrians conquered these areas in 1718. and they found there Serbian population.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...mesvar1699.png