Large-Scale Migration into Southern Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age

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12-26-2021, 10:01 PM
Peterski

^^^ Well there is actually one R1b-U106 but among England_EIA samples (n=14).

Among England_MIA_LIA there are no U106, despite a larger sample size (n=146).

It seems Maciamo counted his haplogroup frequencies only for the latter period.

=====

Maybe that singleton U106 and that singleton I1 were brought by the Belgae.
12-26-2021, 10:45 PM
J.S.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

The Gauls were descriibed by the Romans as northern-looking, so writing "Gallic/Iberian", as if they were equivalents, makes no sense. Check the K36 of Channel Islands Iron Age population (which is probably a good proxy for Armoricans). They were pretty much identical as modern North French, except for Breton-speaking part of Bretagne (remember that people in Eastern Bretagne speak Gallo, and they never spoke Breton in this part - around Rennes).

You were probably right that IA Britain is necessary to model Bretons, but it only applies to West Bretagne (Breton-speaking part).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZyxocTwfiA
12-26-2021, 10:58 PM
J. Ketch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

The Gauls were descriibed by the Romans as northern-looking, so writing "Gallic/Iberian", as if they were equivalents, makes no sense. Check the K36 of Channel Islands Iron Age population (which is probably a good proxy for Armoricans). They were pretty much identical as modern North French, except for Breton-speaking part of Bretagne (remember that people in Eastern Bretagne speak Gallo, and they never spoke Breton in this part - around Rennes).

You were probably right that IA Britain is necessary to model Bretons, but it only applies to West Bretagne (Breton-speaking part).

I was just quoting Jordanes who, after Tacitus, compared Silures to Gauls and Spaniards
12-26-2021, 11:26 PM
J. Ketch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Well, what you called a "shift of England (between EIA and LIA) towards Germanics" also looks like a "shift of England (between EIA and LIA) towards Scotland_IA" to me. So this admixture could be from northern parts of Britain, rather than from areas across the North Sea. Another issue - you should check the regional distribution of England_EIA, England_MIA and England_LIA samples. Because for example if England_EIA samples are mainly from South England; England_MIA samples mainly from English Midlands; and England_LIA mainly from Northern England - then this observed "shift" is not a shift at all, but just a function of geography (because already in the Early Iron Age there was more of EEF admixture in the south of Britain than in the north).

The next thing:

What about uniparentals? If you are unsure about something based on auDNA, maybe a good idea is to check haplogroups?

Maciamo calculated haplogroup statistics and posted on his Eupedia Forum, I'm quoting him:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post636856

Early Iron Age Britain (n=14)

I2a2-M223>Y3259>Y6098>PF692
R1b-P297
R1b-M269
R1b-L52
R1b-U106>S264
R1b-P312
R1b-P312
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251>A11676
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23
R1b-P312>DF27>Z195>Z29704>S11475

Middle & Late Iron Age Britain (n=146)

F
F
F
F
G2a-L497>Z1815>Z1816>BY27899
G2a-L497>Z1815>Z1816>Z1823
G2a-L497>Z1815>Z1816>Z1823
G2a-L497>Z1815>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>S23438
G2a-L497>Z1815>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>Z16775
I1
I2a1a-M26>L160
I2a1a-M26>L160>Z105
I2a2a-M223>Y3259>Y6098
I2a2a-M223>Z284>L1195
I2a2a-M223>Z284>L1195
I2a2a-M223>Z284>L1195>Y3684
I2a2a-M223>Z284>L1195>Y3684
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269>PF7562>Y83965
R1b-L52
R1b-L52
R1b-L52
R1b-L52>L151
R1b-L52>L151
R1b-L52>L151>S1200
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312>S461
R1b-L52>L151>P312>Z30597
R1b-L52>L151>P312>Z30597
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>A1101
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>CTS1751>FGC49766
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF1
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF1>S5668
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>BY11117
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>DF25>DF5
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>DF25>Y12651
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>S5488
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>S5488
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>S5488
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>Y2890
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>BY23924
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494>S1088
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494>S1088
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494>S7958>BY33481
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494>Y31855
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>S1026>BY173541
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>S1026>Z16887
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>S1051>FGC19428
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Y14049>BY9003
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251>Y11273
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2185
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2185>Z2186
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534>A14
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534>BY13089
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>Z16436
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63>CTS6919
R1b-P312>L21>DF63>FGC36421
R1b-P312>L238>Z2245
R1b-P312>DF27
R1b-P312>DF27>FT318890>Y3267
R1b-P312>DF27>Y14529
R1b-P312>DF27>Y30754
R1b-P312>DF27>Y30754>Y85515
R1b-P312>DF27>Z195>Z262
R1b-P312>DF27>Z225>Y89302
R1b-P312>DF27>Z2572
R1b-P312>U152>L2
R1b-P312>U152>L2
R1b-P312>U152>L2>Y3961>Y17997
R1b-P312>U152>L2>Z49>Z142>S7402
R1b-P312>U152>L2>Z49>Z142>S7402>FGC12384
R1b-P312>U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z51>Z57>Z53

Haplogroup frequency:

R1b = 88.3% (including 58.2% of L21, 6.8% of M269, 5.5% of DF27, 4.1% of L2 and 0% of U106)
G2a-L497 = 3.4%
I2a2a-M223 = 3.4%
F = 2.7%
I2a1a-M26 = 1.4%
I1 = 0.7%

=====

In other words, ABSOLUTE LACK of Germanic Y-DNA haplogroups in Iron Age Britain, except for maybe one singleton I1.

What percentage of English males today carry Germanic Y-DNA ??? I don't remember exactly, but surely double-digits.

And in IA England it was no more than 1% (if that singleton I1 is real - and not misdated or a wrongly assigned haplo).

To sum up, there was no male-mediated Germanic admixture in Iron Age England. Maybe female-mediated.

Maybe Britons were buying blond-haired Germanic slave girls and got Germanic admixture - if you want to believe this.

Well yeah, it would be female-mediated, Belgae were Gauls not Germans but they were just on the other side of the river, population exchange there would be pretty likely, but I never suggested any direct Germanic migration to Britain.

I went back and checked the England LIA samples (I didn't use the East Yorkshire ones for the average), and 21 out of 29 were from Southern England, but I take your point anyway about regional distribution having an influence. The shift on the PCA for the LIA samples is more towards the Anglo-Saxons & Medieval Germans, than towards Scotland IA. England EIA, MIA and MIA_LIA is on the same cline between France IA and Scotland IA, but England LIA shifts abruptly East. I also noticed before that 2/4 of the old England IA (late Iron Age) samples from East England are Germanic shifted in that direction as well, M1489, and I0789, which is east of the Medieval Bavarians! Making the England IA average look more like modern English.
12-27-2021, 12:01 AM
J. Ketch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

If we assume that those IA Alderney people were representative of ancient Armoricans, then it seems that Normandy and East Brittany (Gallo-speaking zone, around Rennes) are more similar to ancient Armoricans, than people from West Brittany. Western Brittany (actual Breton-speaking areas) can probably be modeled as a mix of IA Alderney + IA Britain.

^^^
This G25 average for Channel Islands probably includes a low resolution sample I26629.

This sample should be removed and only the 3 decent quality samples should be used:

I16430, I26628, I16505

Also I think that you might get good fits if you model Bretons as a mix of Channel Islands IA + British IA.

I haven't taken the sample out but it's funny that when I add England LIA instead the Bretons prefer Scotland IA.

Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 0.8836% / 0.00883628
41.2 Scotland_IA
26.6 England_LIA
15.0 Austria_IA
5.4 Croatia_IA
4.8 DEU_MA_Alemannic
3.8 Spain_IA
3.0 Slovenia_IA
0.2 Channel_Islands_IA

Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 0.8632% / 0.00863172
58.2 England_MIA_LIA
13.8 Croatia_IA
13.4 DEU_MA_Alemannic
10.0 Scotland_IA
1.6 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric
1.6 Spain_IA
0.8 Wales_IA
0.6 Austria_IA

Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 0.8554% / 0.00855441
55.0 England_MIA
18.2 Scotland_IA
11.0 Austria_IA
7.4 Croatia_IA
5.0 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric
2.2 DEU_MA_Alemannic
1.2 Spain_IA

On the Ancestry white paper last year it showed that modern Bretons score Scottish heavily, but not English (England & NW Europe), alluding to some ancient Celtic Brittonic connection between them. Very curious.
12-27-2021, 02:21 AM
J. Ketch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Well, what you called a "shift of England (between EIA and LIA) towards Germanics" also looks like a "shift of England (between EIA and LIA) towards Scotland_IA" to me. So this admixture could be from northern parts of Britain, rather than from areas across the North Sea. Another issue - you should check the regional distribution of England_EIA, England_MIA and England_LIA samples. Because for example if England_EIA samples are mainly from South England; England_MIA samples mainly from English Midlands; and England_LIA mainly from Northern England - then this observed "shift" is not a shift at all, but just a function of geography (because already in the Early Iron Age there was more of EEF admixture in the south of Britain than in the north).
.

OK Peterski, I split the English LIA samples into North and South, excluding low coverage samples, and added the 3 old England_IA samples from Cambridgeshire to the Southern English average.

Code:

England_South_LIA,0.12879075, 0.13369455, 0.0620175, 0.04791705, 0.03973045, 0.01625935, 0.0040538, 0.0056421, 0.0071378, 0.00592275, -0.00457935, 0.00595725, -0.01282195, -0.0146569, 0.01985585, 0.010541, 0.00016305, 0.00143795, 0.00228765, 0.004821, 0.00369975, 0.0019475 ,-0.00067175, 0.00718755, -0.0006167 England_Yorkshire_LIA,0.1281647, 0.1319172, 0.0606411, 0.0501942, 0.0357605, 0.0181557, 0.002068, 0.0068303, 0.0040496, 0.0015309, -0.007275, 0.0063544, -0.0161447, -0.0188131, 0.0237374, 0.0083266, -0.0048895, 0.0011655, -0.0004149, 0.0030388, 0.0063889, 0.0044886, -0.0027114, 0.0088566, -0.0014849

20 samples for Southern England, 10 for Yorkshire.

Yorkshire

Code:

England_LIA:I14096 England_LIA_o:I14360 England_LIA:I14351 England_LIA:I14097 England_EastYorkshire_LIA:I0525 England_EastYorkshire_LIA:I14106 England_EastYorkshire_LIA:I22057 England_EastYorkshire_LIA:I22062 England_EastYorkshire_LIA:I22064 England_EastYorkshire_LIA:I5502

England_South

Code:

England_LIA_highEEF:I17017 England_LIA_o:I20615 England_LIA:I11142 England_LIA:I11144 England_LIA:I11145 England_LIA:I12785 England_LIA:I12791 England_LIA:I12927 England_LIA:I12931 England_LIA:I12932 England_LIA:I13616 England_LIA:I14552_d England_LIA:I18599 England_LIA:I19870 England_LIA:I21302 England_LIA:I21303 England_LIA:I27379 England_IA:I0156 England_IA:I0160 England_IA:I0789

Code:

Target: England_South_LIA Distance: 0.7244% / 0.00724374 | R2P | ADC: 0.25x RC 75.4 England_MIA 24.6 DEU_MA_Alemannic Target: England_South_LIA Distance: 0.6216% / 0.00621623 | R3P | ADC: 0.25x RC 45.2 England_MIA 33.4 England_Saxon 21.4 Czech_IA Target: England_Yorkshire_LIA Distance: 0.8456% / 0.00845576 | R2P | ADC: 0.25x RC 71.4 England_MIA 28.6 Netherlands_IA Target: England_Yorkshire_LIA Distance: 0.7873% / 0.00787251 | R3P | ADC: 0.25x RC 46.0 England_LBA 30.6 Scotland_IA 23.4 DEU_MA_Alemannic

https://i.postimg.cc/r8mZWQjp/Vahadu...25-Views-4.png
12-30-2021, 04:23 PM
Token

Quote:

Davidski said...
There's only about ~30% Anglo-Saxon ancestry in England overall. Probably more than that in the east, but much less than that in the southwest.
December 29, 2021 at 7:36 PM

Thoughts?
12-30-2021, 04:47 PM
Peterski

Quote:

Originally Posted by Token

Thoughts?

It makes sense that Cornwall (= the southwest) has much less than that.
12-30-2021, 04:47 PM
J. Ketch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Token

Thoughts?

If he's talking about specifically Anglo-Saxon then perhaps. The Viking paper said up to 6% Danish Viking ancestry in England, but 37% Ancient Danish-like ancestry (the rest being assumed Anglo-Saxon). Also most English fall into the single Southeastern cluster, the other more Celtic clusters in the North and Southwest are minorities. The overall Germanic ancestry is more like 40%.
12-30-2021, 06:41 PM
Peterski

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

The overall Germanic ancestry is more like 40%.

When using my K36 averages (they include also British kit that you gave me) and modeling English Midlands as a mix of Welsh + Germanic (NW Germans and Danes), I'm getting only around 25% Germanic (but maybe that's because modern Welsh also have some Germanic input):

[don't pay attention to distances, they seem high because it is K36]

https://i.imgur.com/jpo9Gui.png

https://i.imgur.com/zbd42RP.png

Also East Midlands appears to be slightly more Germanic than West Midlands - which makes sense.

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